From pure mechanical standpoint I can understand GM's decision at least when talking 3e, where Darkness is counterable with either Dispel spells or Ultravision.

I would have personally been ok with it; it's clever, and seems consistent with a Sun cleric. I guess it depends on the GM, though.

Quote from: Bill;674386You are gming dnd (version might not matter here)

Player of a cleric that worships a Sun god encounters an area of total supernatural darkness (An actual darkness spell, but the character may not know exactly what it is)

The character says "As a cleric if the sun god, I try to banish the darkness!!"
The player asks the gm "Can I expend my turn undead power to try and banish the darkness?"


What would you do, as a gm, in this situation?

First - I detest cookie-cutter approaches to Clergy. So by default, I tend to make sure there are mechanical differences to the emphasis of respective churches (one of the reasons I *LOVED* Faiths and Pantheons. I did not allow "Clerics" into the game - you *had* to be a Specialty Priest of your particular faith).

That said - I would have no problem allowing PC/NPC clerics to use their "turn" ability to do something within the province of their own deities sphere of influence. By and large - I like it when my players try to get a little creative, but I make sure they understand if I'm okay with it - they're establishing a precedent that could have downstream effects. If they're cool with it - so am I. Play on!

I would probably split the difference,  actually.  My response would be something like...

"Okay, so you draw upon (the sun god)'s power to attempt to dispel the darkness.  Your holy symbol glows brilliantly, but the surrounding darkness claws at the light like a vile mist.  You can see pretty well in a small sphere around you, in your own square,  but that's about it."

Like for like.  A cool idea gets a cool game result, but it takes actual spells and class powers to go beyond that.

Hm. That's an interesting question. Since turn undead can also work at high levels to banish evil from the lower planes (in First Ed, in any case), it would make sense for a cleric of a Sun deity to banish darkness.

I might allow a roll using the level of the caster of the original darkness spell as the Undead's HD, or less, perhaps mitigated by the weakness/strength of the spell itself, and it would count as the Cleric's attempt to Turn in this particular situation. Like Mcbobbo, I'd probably use the Holy Symbol as a source of light repelling the darkness around the Cleric on a success (same range as Undead kept at bay in such a fashion).

If the darkness is not supernatural (spell), then I'd rule as the deity would think of it. Is it a waste of time and energy from the deity's standpoint? Divine power is not something you use lightly. If all it takes to banish the darkness is to hold a torch against it, you'd probably better do that instead.

Quote from: mcbobbo;674487A cool idea gets a cool game result, but it takes actual spells and class powers to go beyond that.

I would have done something similar. When trying to adjudicate unique rule requests like this, I try to split the difference between the opposing sides.  So in this case, the darkness would have been dispelled, but only temporarily.  This way, the player's goal was partially achieved, but the big-bad, although discovered, would still have been able to leverage his advantage.

You prayer was heard and a brilliant light burst forth from your holy symbol, pushing the darkness to the edges of the room.  As your eye's start to adjust, you spot a figure standing in front of you.  But just as your eyes can focus, and you notice a look of great displeasure on his face, the darkness takes root again and rushes over you as he curses your god...

I would have allowed it. No reason not to, it fits the character and is not some game breaking advantage. I would have just had you roll as if turning some mid tier undead.

If the darkness was powered by Negative Energy (4e Necrotic Energy) and the Turn Undead channels Positive Energy (4e Radiant Energy) then I would probably allow a Turn attempt against it, yup. If it wasn't clear whether the Darkness was caused by a Negative Energy effect I'd roll a d6, on 1-3 answer is 'yes'.

Quote from: S'mon;674512If the darkness was powered by Negative Energy (4e Necrotic Energy) and the Turn Undead channels Positive Energy (4e Radiant Energy) then I would probably allow a Turn attempt against it, yup. If it wasn't clear whether the Darkness was caused by a Negative Energy effect I'd roll a d6, on 1-3 answer is 'yes'.

Gotta love magic 8 ball rulings.

I adhere to the belief that no unreasonable request should be unreasonably denied.

He's the DM, it's his ruling.  But a good DM would have a reasonable explanation as to why.  If the reason is because he didn't want his big baddie to lose an advantage?  Tough.  Put on your big boy DM pants and be fair.  If his ruling is that the cleric's god didn't empower the cleric to do that?  Fine.

After all, we've all been there.  I remember as a DM in a 1e campaign one of the final bad guys ended up failing his saving throw against a rope of entanglement.  Sort of anti-climatic, but it's not fair for me as a DM to fudge or change the rules.

Quote from: Patrick;674395I think i would allow it- it seems to fit within a sun god's portfolio, and doesn't seem like a game breaker.  Now, if the darkness was summoned by an evil cleric or monster, I would have the Sun cleric roll for it!  
What was the ruling on the field?

I agreed with the above. I will add if the darkness had a caster I would use the Turn Undead Chart with the level or HD of the caster to determine which column to use.

Dispel Magic is a 3rd level spell. Per the rules it takes the expenditure of that resource to dispel magical darkness. In addition, in some editions, if the caster of darkness is significantly higher level, even that might not do the trick.

Question for Bill: was your cleric high enough level to cast dispel magic?

If not, I have to agree with the DM ruling, not for the reason stated but because it isn't fair to able to trade a resource you have (a turning attempt) for one that the character is not yet entitled to.

In previous games with very active God's I've often allowed characters to call for miracles in dire situations. Starting with a 1% chance and being modified by the worthiness of the cause, the worthiness of the character, and any promised sacrifices, oaths, etc.

So in this case we would start with the base 1% chance.

The situation does not seem especially dire so no modifier there.

The character is a cleric and more particularly a cleric of the sun God, So I might let him add half his level.

The character is offering a sacrifice of his turning abilities so I would probably add a few percentage points to the roll for that.

In addition the character could have sacrificed something on the spot, promised to build a shrine, promised to dedicate a temple, convert the heathens, etc. For more points.

Anyway, it's always a longshot because the gods are fickle and not amused by your petty requests.

And of course you can fumble.

Quote from: Bill;674386The character says "As a cleric if the sun god, I try to banish the darkness!!"
The player asks the gm "Can I expend my turn undead power to try and banish the darkness?"

Seems reasonable. Since it's an unusual application of their abilities, I'd probably require some sort of check. For OD&D, that would be a prime requisite check. For 3E, a Spellcraft or Religion check.

But I'd also note that it won't work on more "mundane" darkness spells: Like, if a wizard just casts a darkness spell the cleric isn't gaining the ability to spontaneously dispel it.

I can understand why the GM said no, though. I'm already seeing all kinds of problems from opening up this can of worms.

In my actual 3E game, I allow clerics to spontaneously cast their domain spells (instead of getting a domain spell slot). This would largely sidestep this issue.

Quote from: Piestrio;674524In previous games with very active God's I've often allowed characters to call for miracles in dire situations. Starting with a 1% chance and being modified by the worthiness of the cause, the worthiness of the character, and any promised sacrifices, oaths, etc.

So in this case we would start with the base 1% chance.

The situation does not seem especially dire so no modifier there.

The character is a cleric and more particularly a cleric of the sun God, So I might let him add half his level.

The character is offering a sacrifice of his turning abilities so I would probably add a few percentage points to the roll for that.

In addition the character could have sacrificed something on the spot, promised to build a shrine, promised to dedicate a temple, convert the heathens, etc. For more points.

Anyway, it's always a longshot because the gods are fickle and not amused by your petty requests.

And of course you can fumble.

Hasn't RuneQuest, before it went Setting - lite, had rules regarding this? The divine intervention I mean.