Quote from: David Johansen;645421I think it's closer to "For Steve it boils down to, I'm no longer interested in rpgs"

Probably.  If you were still interested, it wouldn't matter that they don't sell megabucks.

JG

Quote from: Kyle Aaron;645430GURPS3e had some passion. GURPS4e has none.

Not true, GURPS 4e has a profound passion for nitpicky little fiddly bits and indexing.

Quote from: Kyle Aaron;645430I didn't say the mathematics was difficult. I said, it was written by a particle physicist, and it shows. It's like a uni textbook, not game rules.

What I mean by this it that it emphasises the building blocks rather than the system which puts the blocks together. For everyday life we don't need quantum mechanics, Newtonian physics is more than enough.

I mean also that the treatment is exhaustive: in how many games would PCs have the Two Heads advantage, for example?

As well, the writing is utterly without passion.

In these respects, GURPS4e is written like a university physics textbook.

To a degree, any generic rpg system is going to be boring to read. The setting stuff is what's interesting. This is why most rpgs have character creation examples, like GURPS1e-3e did, and RuneQuest, or classic Traveller. It livens things up a bit.

If the authour has really engaging writing or says some ridiculous things about gaming, or even offers useful advice, this can make up for the generic nature of the thing. This is why AD&D1e could be so successful despite being a big sprawling mess of a pair of books, or why the horrific confusion of World of Synnibar could be popular: rpgs are like sex, enthusiasm is more important than skill. You read their writing, however nonsensical, and you want to PLAY.

GURPS3e had some passion. GURPS4e has none.

I agree with the above.

 I recently looked into running an ancient mediterranean/greece campaign so read some GURPS & some Mazes & Minotaurs. Gurps seemed like hard work to wade through and was basically no fun to read. M&M had me buzzing & dreaming campaign ideas. Presentation matters.

M&M presented me with such a clear vision of their idea of ancient greek roleplaying that I could see how their ideas worked & how I could use or alter that to my own ends within minutes.

GURPS seemed like a huge messy problem with outstanding background research.

GURPS is for players that like to crack open the book when it is their turn.  A lot of the rules are described in the skills the players picked for their characters.  So until a player has memorized how their skills work, they will need the book for each action they take almost.  It slows down both role-playing and roll-playing to a crawl.

I don't play much GURPS anymore.  Mongoose Traveller is where it's at now for me.

Quote from: David Johansen;645527Not true, GURPS 4e has a profound passion for nitpicky little fiddly bits and indexing.

There's a webpage dedicated to GURPS welding rules. Seriously.

There's a difference between "passionate" and "obsessive-compulsive."

Style. Substance.

Style sells. Substance sustains. You need both.

It's like looking at "man can't live on bread alone," and deciding that bread obviously needs more fiber.

Nobody would like to see the fiddly stuff moved out of the core more than me.  While doing it, I'd like to see a few rules fixed.  But no game is perfect.

Style is an interesting issue.  I feel GURPS has a very deliberately chosen style.  It's more realistic, less overwrought, and more grounded which I feel is very much in keeping with GURPS as a system.  It could have been done better I suppose, but as far as that goes I'd rather it had been on regular paper in black and white. Quality hardbacks are, of course, always desirable.

Well style is about digestible presentation. So you can strive to appeal in a realistic style. But TMI (too much information) is often the death of such an aesthetic.

Quote from: Shawn Driscoll;645555GURPS is for players that like to crack open the book when it is their turn.  A lot of the rules are described in the skills the players picked for their characters.  So until a player has memorized how their skills work, they will need the book for each action they take almost.  It slows down both role-playing and roll-playing to a crawl.

Either use cheats sheets if the referee is a novice. Or an experienced referee just reminds the players of his options when it is his turn. It not a hard obstacle to overcome and little different than what most referee have to do when running systems beyond the #1 or #2 most popular game in the hobby.

I successfully been teaching novices for nearly 25 years and my current campaign has a bunch of novice GURPS Characters.

The problem is getting others to take up the game as their primary system in face of other roleplaying system. GURPS is written and organized as a toolkit that it is strength and it is bane. Once you get a bunch of notes together and run a campaign or two it is pretty smooth sailing but that initial hurdle is a pretty big one.

Quote from: estar;646003I successfully been teaching novices for nearly 25 years and my current campaign has a bunch of novice GURPS Characters.

What style do you teach?

Quote from: estar;646003GURPS is written and organized as a toolkit that it is strength and it is bane. Once you get a bunch of notes together and run a campaign or two it is pretty smooth sailing but that initial hurdle is a pretty big one.

GURPS is great if you are writing a computer RPG and use GURPS to simulate everything.  I prefer not to do GURPS by hand though.  Mongoose Traveller has only a few rules, so there isn't anything to memorize or read when it is your turn.

Quote from: Shawn Driscoll;646026What style do you teach?

Not exactly sure what you mean by this even after reading the preceding posts.

I run a sandbox campaign which means the players are free to roleplay how they like as long as they are willing to face the consequences of their actions good or bad.

As for the level of detail for I use about 80% of the rules in Martial Arts and the Core books. The same with Magic along with a handful of options of Thamuatalogy.

For teaching novices, there are two major things I do.

I tell them to come up with the character in general terms and feel free to make references to D&D or another system they now. Then I explain to them the options in GURPS that fit the character they want to play. As well as their implications. From there we hash it out and they have a GURPS character to play as well as learning how it works to create a character.

During play I assume the responsibility of not only refereeing their actions but teaching how GURPS works. GURPS design has a one to once correspondence to thing a person would actually do. So it is easy to just to tell a novice to describe what they want to do as if they were really there and then translate that into the game rules of GURPS.

Also I follow the "Don't be a dick about it." rule and allow players to reconsider tactical choices because of a misunderstanding or a lack of knowledge of the rules. And because again because of the design GURPS it often makes sense why it worked the way it did.

Whatever it faults of presentation GURPS 4e is well designed.

Quote from: Shawn Driscoll;646026GURPS is great if you are writing a computer RPG and use GURPS to simulate everything.  I prefer not to do GURPS by hand though.  Mongoose Traveller has only a few rules, so there isn't anything to memorize or read when it is your turn.

GURPS has level of details and a GURPS campaign with combat and be run a lite or detailed as the group desires. One of the lite options is to make combat a simple contest of skills. The next step up uses attacks, defenses, manueveurs.  Then next level adds on the grid, and finally there are details found in Martial Arts and Tactical Shooting.

GURPS is designed as a toolkit, which means referees are expected pick and choose what to include.

If I were to design a fantasy/sci-fantasy game based upon GURPS, should I put my energies into 3e or 4e? I haven't read 4e yet, so I'm uninformed.

Quote from: Sacrificial Lamb;646076If I were to design a fantasy/sci-fantasy game based upon GURPS, should I put my energies into 3e or 4e? I haven't read 4e yet, so I'm uninformed.

4e - the organization and layout has been improved and the rules streamlined in a good way.  If you supply your own presentation and charm, it will be a winning mix for your players.

Quote from: Dave;6460804e - the organization and layout has been improved and the rules streamlined in a good way.  If you supply your own presentation and charm, it will be a winning mix for your players.

That's a good slogan.

"GURPS 4th Edition - Supply Your Own Presentation And Charm"

Quote from: Sacrificial Lamb;646076If I were to design a fantasy/sci-fantasy game based upon GURPS, should I put my energies into 3e or 4e? I haven't read 4e yet, so I'm uninformed.

If you ever want to make a dime from it or publish it in any other way than a fan page don't bother.

SJG will not liscence the system and they don't really want to hear your ideas.  They know everything there is to know about the hobby and the industry and unless you're writing something from their wish list with approval they aren't interested.  Be prepared to wait months for a response, if you ask twice they won't ever talk to you again as a matter of policy.

Don't take that as bitterness.  I'll freely admit I'm not the kind of writer they want to work with.  That's okay, my feelings aren't hurt.  But I think it's more than fair to warn people that if you want to work with SJG you do it their way.

They've delt with and been burned by enough freelancers in the past that they've got quite a harsh vetting process.