So, on a whim this past weekend, I picked up the GURPS WWII book, which as I understand it has a copy of GURPS 3e Lite included in it to make it more or less a standalone product. I also grabbed a copy of GURPS 3e Revised for practically nothing.
I used to have a great time statting up characters in GURPS some 15 years or so ago, but since then, my experience with GURPS has been acquiring the 4e books, saying to myself "this looks a bit more complicated than I remember", and getting rid of them due to non-use.
So, I guess my question is, if I stick with GURPS 3e Lite and just throw in a few advantages or disadvantages as needed, am I really missing anything? I don't really want to do conversion work for WWII to GURPS 4e, so unless there's a compelling reason to switch, I don't think I'd bother.
I've read through GURPS 4e Lite, but I guess I'm more curious in terms of actual play, will I be missing anything by sticking with 3e?
I know we have some GURPS Masters on this forum, so I'm curious to hear your thoughts.
GURPS 4e fixes a lot of little things that caused problems in 3e though it also introduces a few of its own.
3e is certainly more approachable on the surface. It's not so crammed in and there's not as much potentially game breaking craziness in the core.
I'd at least change to the 4e autofire rules. 3e's work and are realistic but they're also slow and involve a lot of operations just to find out what a one second spray of bullets did.
Quote from: David Johansen;644380I'd at least change to the 4e autofire rules. 3e's work and are realistic but they're also slow and involve a lot of operations just to find out what a one second spray of bullets did.
How hard is that to implement?
Thanks for the response, btw.
GURPS 4e seems more complicated because the 4e core set is basically 3e + compendium 1 & 2.
I like 4E because it fixes some stuff that was annoying.
No more half points!!! YES
On a related note, languages are fixed. The 15 IQ characters being fluent in 16 languages at half a point each was a little crazy.
It seems more complex because of the compendium stuff folded into the core like Piestrio said.
The last time I looked at 3e was a decade ago, so some of this may be off the mark even though I run a 4e game currently.
Attribute Costs - IQ and DX now cost 20 point a level instead of everything being a flat 10. This does help to rein in those IQ 15 characters being super awesome at everything for a few points. The elimination of half point also helps out this to a degree.
Firearms Combat has been streamlined - No more snap shot penalty, rules for Buck Fever, the autofire rules now work quickly and smoothly. Passive Defense was eliminated. Combats now run smoother and quicker than I remember in 3e.
That being said, 4e has an obtuse and convoluted approach to presentation compared to the simplicity of 3e. Some of this has to do with the Compendiums being folded into the core rules, but the 3e Basic set had an immediacy and straight forward approach that 4e lacks.
What sort of WWII campaign are you planning to run? That will determine what level of conversion you need to do and whether you have to do it all at once or if you can get away with doing it piece by piece.
Quote from: Dave;644486What sort of WWII campaign are you planning to run? That will determine what level of conversion you need to do and whether you have to do it all at once or if you can get away with doing it piece by piece.
Fairly gritty, I would think. Knives kill, one shot from a rifle can kill or maim, grenades can certainly kill.
I'm still deciding on the starting timeframe, but I'm thinking like a "Special Office" cloak and dagger/commando sort of thing for the Allies, so we can have (bending history as needed) British officers haunted by the failures of the BEF, freewheeling Canadians, smart-ass Aussies, vengeful Poles, bloodthirsty Free Frenchmen, daring Norwegian resistance fighters, and the whole rest in a massive mix-up.
EDIT: And yes, a younger Christopher Lee has to make an appearance.
Quote from: Zachary The First;644370I've read through GURPS 4e Lite, but I guess I'm more curious in terms of actual play, will I be missing anything by sticking with 3e?
I know we have some GURPS Masters on this forum, so I'm curious to hear your thoughts.
GURPS 4e is more polished and better but together but...
If you are planning to use one of their "lines" of products (GURPS Traveller, GURPS World War II) then you are not missing anything by sticking with 3e.
The main advantage of converting over 4e if you wanted to use more detailed rules of Martial Arts and Tactical Shooting. They are both excellent products and playable if you make cheats sheets for the options the players choose to use for their characters.
Quote from: Zachary The First;644553Fairly gritty, I would think. Knives kill, one shot from a rifle can kill or maim, grenades can certainly kill.
I'm still deciding on the starting timeframe, but I'm thinking like a "Special Office" cloak and dagger/commando sort of thing for the Allies, so we can have (bending history as needed) British officers haunted by the failures of the BEF, freewheeling Canadians, smart-ass Aussies, vengeful Poles, bloodthirsty Free Frenchmen, daring Norwegian resistance fighters, and the whole rest in a massive mix-up.
EDIT: And yes, a younger Christopher Lee has to make an appearance.
Sounds awesome, I'd play that in a heartbeat. I doubt you'd have to do a wholesale conversion over from the 3e WWII books. Grab High Tech, whip up a few templates for people unfamiliar with GURPS and go. Nothing would prevent you from playing it in 3e either - this sort of game is right in GURPS' wheelhouse regardless of edition.
Quote from: Zachary The First;644553Fairly gritty, I would think. Knives kill, one shot from a rifle can kill or maim, grenades can certainly kill.
I'm still deciding on the starting timeframe, but I'm thinking like a "Special Office" cloak and dagger/commando sort of thing for the Allies, so we can have (bending history as needed) British officers haunted by the failures of the BEF, freewheeling Canadians, smart-ass Aussies, vengeful Poles, bloodthirsty Free Frenchmen, daring Norwegian resistance fighters, and the whole rest in a massive mix-up.
EDIT: And yes, a younger Christopher Lee has to make an appearance.
In the WWII series, that package deal is specifically listed in
Return to Honor, which gives the history of France in World War II (such as it was) including the resistance movements and SOE.
JG
Excellent, guys, thanks!
GURPS 3e lite was the only version I ever really enjoyed.
As I know nothing about GURPs and it is a similar question, are the GURPs Dungeon Fantasy series standalone or do you need the Character Builder books too? THe blurb seems to say it is a cut down version of GURPs
You still need GURPS Characters. Magic wouldn't hurt either.
Quote from: David Johansen;645094You still need GURPS Characters. Magic wouldn't hurt either.
And thus they turn from awesome to dumb in a single sentence.
Campaigns and Fantasy might come in handy too :)
But don't get me wrong, you can run a fantasy campaign with nothing more than the GURPS Basic Set Book 1: Characters. Magic is covered and you could always use advantages instead of the standard magic system if you want something a little more direct. IRRC there's even templates for a few basic fantasy races in there. Horses and other animals are in the Campaigns book but you can build a horse with Characters if you're so inclined. Indeed you can even play a horse if you want.
GURPS 4e was written by a particle physicist, and it shows.
Because it works but everyone's uncertain why that is?
Or perhaps because the game exists in a state in which it is both alive and dead similtaneously?
Quote from: David Johansen;645160Because it works but everyone's uncertain why that is?
Or perhaps because the game exists in a state in which it is both alive and dead similtaneously?
I thought it relates to the amount of heavy mathematics.
Quote from: David Johansen;645160because the game exists in a state in which it is both alive and dead similtaneously?
That is actually very insightful.
Quote from: David Johansen;645160Because it works but everyone's uncertain why that is?
Or perhaps because the game exists in a state in which it is both alive and dead similtaneously?
The system is really good. The presentation and organization is what keeps folks away.
Quote from: Piestrio;645106And thus they turn from awesome to dumb in a single sentence.
The idea behind Dungeon Fantasy, Monster Hunters, Action!, etc is to implement the GURPS core book for a narrow genre.
They sit between a setting supplement and the generic core. For example you can run any of the the modern fantasy show ( Buffy, Supernatural, etc) with Monster Hunter. Dungeon Fantasy is about as setting specific as D&D.
While I am glad to have the DF series and it has proven very useful even in the 150 pt fantasy campaigns I run. It is only halfway to what GURPS needs to enjoy a broader appeal.
Which to reorganize all the details and release it in a single standalone powered by GURPS RPG.
Quote from: estar;645232Which to reorganize all the details and release it in a single standalone powered by GURPS RPG.
You know, I've heard you say this several times. And each time I do, I think to myself...
"You know, that man makes a lot of sense."
Just so you know. :)
Quote from: Kyle Aaron;645155GURPS 4e was written by a particle physicist, and it shows.
I disagree. The math is no more difficult than d20, D&D 4e or any other system with the similar number of options. The problem with GURPS is one of presentation. The core book is a reference for a referee to create their own campaign.
It is like Fate versus Fudge. with Fudge all you get are the tools to build your campaign. Fate started by implementing specific RPGs and became way more popular than Fudge even though they are practically the same system.
Quote from: Daddy Warpig;645236You know, I've heard you say this several times. And each time I do, I think to myself...
"You know, that man makes a lot of sense."
Just so you know. :)
Thanks
All I get are lame excuses from SJ Games Staff on this issue over on the SJ Games.
For the company it boils down to
SJ Games:
Manpower as Munchkin and board games are the bread and butter of SJ Games.
My Response: Yet you are still producing GURPS product why not focus on something that will expand the customer base of the line instead of your next hardcover being GURPS Zombies. Something I think they will do well but is it what the line really needs?
SJ Games:
Our stable of Freelancers and staff writers are not interested in writing a GURPS D&D style RPG.
My Response: At some point some projects should be done to keep the line healthy whether you are interested or not. Any maybe if you don't have such byzantine writer guidelines maybe you will have a larger pool of writers.
SJ Games:
RPGs are declining and no long a viable market for large and expensive projects.
My Response:
GURPS is declined faster than its competitors like Savage World and Fate because of the reputation of its presentation. And some RPGs have done well despite the market collapse including one of GURPS Competitors, Evil Hat with Fate Core which just raised $400,000 in their kickstarter.
There are others points that have been debated including some type of open license so other can have at it. But the basic situation that SJ Games is a company that make high quality product including some insanely great one but has developed blind spots that is crippling the popularity of GURPS. That unlike the 90s there are others with generic system that either match their quality, have better support, or just are good enough in everything else.
Quote from: Exploderwizard;645184The system is really good. The presentation and organization is what keeps folks away.
It really is on both counts. The core books' organization is great, if you already know how GURPS works and what you're doing with it. If you're coming in new and blind, it's atrocious.
I'm just spit balling here as I started with GURPS around 2000 with 3e, took a long break before coming back with 4e a little over a year ago, but I think the inmates are running the GURPS asylum. Judging from the SJ Games forum, the GURPS Google+ circle and the releases on E23, everybody is focused on making increasingly Byzantine rules for increasingly narrow situations. The end result of which is more and more baggage keeps people from getting into the system.
Rob's points above are very good and accurate. GURPS needs someone with editorial oversight to bring the system back to basics with obvious entry points via genre books that are geared for people to be able to read and understand easily.
Quote from: Dave;645272Rob's points above are very good and accurate. GURPS needs someone with editorial oversight to bring the system back to basics with obvious entry points via genre books that are geared for people to be able to read and understand easily.
Yarp. The largest amount of prepwork for any GURPS 4E campaign is just combing through the basic books and deciding what to exclude depending on campaign needs.
Thanks for the replies, pity I fancied a look at DF.
Quote from: estar;645249Thanks
All I get are lame excuses from SJ Games Staff on this issue over on the SJ Games.
For the company it boils down to
I think it's closer to "For Steve it boils down to, I'm no longer interested in rpgs"
Quote from: estar;645237I disagree. The math is no more difficult than d20, D&D 4e or any other system with the similar number of options. The problem with GURPS is one of presentation.
I didn't say the mathematics was difficult. I said, it was written by a particle physicist, and it shows. It's like a uni textbook, not game rules.
What I mean by this it that it emphasises the building blocks rather than the system which puts the blocks together. For everyday life we don't need quantum mechanics, Newtonian physics is more than enough.
I mean also that the treatment is exhaustive: in how many games would PCs have the Two Heads advantage, for example?
As well, the writing is utterly without passion.
In these respects, GURPS4e is written like a university physics textbook.
To a degree, any generic rpg system is going to be boring to read. The setting stuff is what's interesting. This is why most rpgs have character creation examples, like GURPS1e-3e did, and RuneQuest, or classic Traveller. It livens things up a bit.
If the authour has really engaging writing or says some ridiculous things about gaming, or even offers useful advice, this can make up for the generic nature of the thing. This is why AD&D1e could be so successful despite being a big sprawling mess of a pair of books, or why the horrific confusion of
World of Synnibar could be popular: rpgs are like sex, enthusiasm is more important than skill. You read their writing, however nonsensical, and
you want to PLAY.
GURPS3e had some passion. GURPS4e has none.
Quote from: David Johansen;645421I think it's closer to "For Steve it boils down to, I'm no longer interested in rpgs"
Probably. If you were still interested, it wouldn't matter that they don't sell megabucks.
JG
Quote from: Kyle Aaron;645430GURPS3e had some passion. GURPS4e has none.
Not true, GURPS 4e has a profound passion for nitpicky little fiddly bits and indexing.
Quote from: Kyle Aaron;645430I didn't say the mathematics was difficult. I said, it was written by a particle physicist, and it shows. It's like a uni textbook, not game rules.
What I mean by this it that it emphasises the building blocks rather than the system which puts the blocks together. For everyday life we don't need quantum mechanics, Newtonian physics is more than enough.
I mean also that the treatment is exhaustive: in how many games would PCs have the Two Heads advantage, for example?
As well, the writing is utterly without passion.
In these respects, GURPS4e is written like a university physics textbook.
To a degree, any generic rpg system is going to be boring to read. The setting stuff is what's interesting. This is why most rpgs have character creation examples, like GURPS1e-3e did, and RuneQuest, or classic Traveller. It livens things up a bit.
If the authour has really engaging writing or says some ridiculous things about gaming, or even offers useful advice, this can make up for the generic nature of the thing. This is why AD&D1e could be so successful despite being a big sprawling mess of a pair of books, or why the horrific confusion of World of Synnibar could be popular: rpgs are like sex, enthusiasm is more important than skill. You read their writing, however nonsensical, and you want to PLAY.
GURPS3e had some passion. GURPS4e has none.
I agree with the above.
I recently looked into running an ancient mediterranean/greece campaign so read some GURPS & some Mazes & Minotaurs. Gurps seemed like hard work to wade through and was basically no fun to read. M&M had me buzzing & dreaming campaign ideas. Presentation matters.
M&M presented me with such a clear vision of their idea of ancient greek roleplaying that I could see how their ideas worked & how I could use or alter that to my own ends within minutes.
GURPS seemed like a huge messy problem with outstanding background research.
GURPS is for players that like to crack open the book when it is their turn. A lot of the rules are described in the skills the players picked for their characters. So until a player has memorized how their skills work, they will need the book for each action they take almost. It slows down both role-playing and roll-playing to a crawl.
I don't play much GURPS anymore. Mongoose Traveller is where it's at now for me.
Quote from: David Johansen;645527Not true, GURPS 4e has a profound passion for nitpicky little fiddly bits and indexing.
There's a webpage dedicated to GURPS welding rules (https://sites.google.com/site/nymdoksgurpsaddons/Home/gurps-welding). Seriously.
There's a difference between "passionate" and "obsessive-compulsive."
Style. Substance.
Style sells. Substance sustains. You need both.
It's like looking at "man can't live on bread alone," and deciding that bread obviously needs more fiber.
Nobody would like to see the fiddly stuff moved out of the core more than me. While doing it, I'd like to see a few rules fixed. But no game is perfect.
Style is an interesting issue. I feel GURPS has a very deliberately chosen style. It's more realistic, less overwrought, and more grounded which I feel is very much in keeping with GURPS as a system. It could have been done better I suppose, but as far as that goes I'd rather it had been on regular paper in black and white. Quality hardbacks are, of course, always desirable.
Well style is about digestible presentation. So you can strive to appeal in a realistic style. But TMI (too much information) is often the death of such an aesthetic.
Quote from: Shawn Driscoll;645555GURPS is for players that like to crack open the book when it is their turn. A lot of the rules are described in the skills the players picked for their characters. So until a player has memorized how their skills work, they will need the book for each action they take almost. It slows down both role-playing and roll-playing to a crawl.
Either use cheats sheets if the referee is a novice. Or an experienced referee just reminds the players of his options when it is his turn. It not a hard obstacle to overcome and little different than what most referee have to do when running systems beyond the #1 or #2 most popular game in the hobby.
I successfully been teaching novices for nearly 25 years and my current campaign has a bunch of novice GURPS Characters.
The problem is getting others to take up the game as their primary system in face of other roleplaying system. GURPS is written and organized as a toolkit that it is strength and it is bane. Once you get a bunch of notes together and run a campaign or two it is pretty smooth sailing but that initial hurdle is a pretty big one.
Quote from: estar;646003I successfully been teaching novices for nearly 25 years and my current campaign has a bunch of novice GURPS Characters.
What style do you teach?
Quote from: estar;646003GURPS is written and organized as a toolkit that it is strength and it is bane. Once you get a bunch of notes together and run a campaign or two it is pretty smooth sailing but that initial hurdle is a pretty big one.
GURPS is great if you are writing a computer RPG and use GURPS to simulate everything. I prefer not to do GURPS by hand though. Mongoose Traveller has only a few rules, so there isn't anything to memorize or read when it is your turn.
Quote from: Shawn Driscoll;646026What style do you teach?
Not exactly sure what you mean by this even after reading the preceding posts.
I run a sandbox campaign which means the players are free to roleplay how they like as long as they are willing to face the consequences of their actions good or bad.
As for the level of detail for I use about 80% of the rules in Martial Arts and the Core books. The same with Magic along with a handful of options of Thamuatalogy.
For teaching novices, there are two major things I do.
I tell them to come up with the character in general terms and feel free to make references to D&D or another system they now. Then I explain to them the options in GURPS that fit the character they want to play. As well as their implications. From there we hash it out and they have a GURPS character to play as well as learning how it works to create a character.
During play I assume the responsibility of not only refereeing their actions but teaching how GURPS works. GURPS design has a one to once correspondence to thing a person would actually do. So it is easy to just to tell a novice to describe what they want to do as if they were really there and then translate that into the game rules of GURPS.
Also I follow the "Don't be a dick about it." rule and allow players to reconsider tactical choices because of a misunderstanding or a lack of knowledge of the rules. And because again because of the design GURPS it often makes sense why it worked the way it did.
Whatever it faults of presentation GURPS 4e is well designed.
Quote from: Shawn Driscoll;646026GURPS is great if you are writing a computer RPG and use GURPS to simulate everything. I prefer not to do GURPS by hand though. Mongoose Traveller has only a few rules, so there isn't anything to memorize or read when it is your turn.
GURPS has level of details and a GURPS campaign with combat and be run a lite or detailed as the group desires. One of the lite options is to make combat a simple contest of skills. The next step up uses attacks, defenses, manueveurs. Then next level adds on the grid, and finally there are details found in Martial Arts and Tactical Shooting.
GURPS is designed as a toolkit, which means referees are expected pick and choose what to include.
If I were to design a fantasy/sci-fantasy game based upon GURPS, should I put my energies into 3e or 4e? I haven't read 4e yet, so I'm uninformed.
Quote from: Sacrificial Lamb;646076If I were to design a fantasy/sci-fantasy game based upon GURPS, should I put my energies into 3e or 4e? I haven't read 4e yet, so I'm uninformed.
4e - the organization and layout has been improved and the rules streamlined in a good way. If you supply your own presentation and charm, it will be a winning mix for your players.
Quote from: Dave;6460804e - the organization and layout has been improved and the rules streamlined in a good way. If you supply your own presentation and charm, it will be a winning mix for your players.
That's a good slogan.
"GURPS 4th Edition - Supply Your Own Presentation And Charm"
Quote from: Sacrificial Lamb;646076If I were to design a fantasy/sci-fantasy game based upon GURPS, should I put my energies into 3e or 4e? I haven't read 4e yet, so I'm uninformed.
If you ever want to make a dime from it or publish it in any other way than a fan page don't bother.
SJG will not liscence the system and they don't really want to hear your ideas. They know everything there is to know about the hobby and the industry and unless you're writing something from their wish list with approval they aren't interested. Be prepared to wait months for a response, if you ask twice they won't ever talk to you again as a matter of policy.
Don't take that as bitterness. I'll freely admit I'm not the kind of writer they want to work with. That's okay, my feelings aren't hurt. But I think it's more than fair to warn people that if you want to work with SJG you do it their way.
They've delt with and been burned by enough freelancers in the past that they've got quite a harsh vetting process.
Quote from: David Johansen;646448SJG will not liscence the system and they don't really want to hear your ideas. They know everything there is to know about the hobby and the industry and unless you're writing something from their wish list with approval they aren't interested. Be prepared to wait months for a response, if you ask twice they won't ever talk to you again as a matter of policy.
Don't take that as bitterness. I'll freely admit I'm not the kind of writer they want to work with. That's okay, my feelings aren't hurt. But I think it's more than fair to warn people that if you want to work with SJG you do it their way.
They've delt with and been burned by enough freelancers in the past that they've got quite a harsh vetting process.
Well put and pretty much my experience as well. I don't feel any ill-will towards SJ Games because of it and with the release of the Dungeon Fantasy line they pretty much addressed my personal wants with the GURPS.
I would like to be able to publish my own GURPS material, I would like not to have to rebuild my GURPS player base every couple of years but those two items don't interfere with my enjoyment of GURPS or make me play GURPS any less.
I may submit a modified Scourge of the Demon Wolf, it was originally run as a GURPS adventure, for use by the MIB program. A helpful person within the program told me how to do it.
Quote from: estar;645249My Response: Yet you are still producing GURPS product why not focus on something that will expand the customer base of the line instead of your next hardcover being GURPS Zombies. Something I think they will do well but is it what the line really needs?
So what do you think they need?
What do you think would be the trick to making GURPS a bigger success?
Quote from: David Johansen;645527Not true, GURPS 4e has a profound passion for nitpicky little fiddly bits and indexing.
Touche!
Well, some support would be nice. GURPS barely got a foot note in this year's stake holder's report.
I've had a few thoughts on how to open up GURPS to the wider market over the years.
My personal favorite is a set of 32 page supplements for GURPS Lite. You could have a fantasy one, a supers one, a modern one, a horror one, a science fiction one, a mecha one and so forth. Each booklet would have a fold over on the back cover with cardboard heroes and a couple pull out maps in the center of the book. They could sell for maybe $10 and a copy of GURPS Lite with a cover on it might be $15. I think the industry often fails to recognize that dead broke teenagers grow into adult gamers with jobs and money. Essentially I'd like the point of entry to be priced in the same range as Magic The Gathering's range and in a format that keeps the sense of reading a brick to a minimum.
However, I think some good, generic one book hardbacks would do better at targeting the existing gamer market. GURPS Vorsykien is actually a really good one book GURPS Space point of entry but it's also tied to an obscure liscence and has a particularly uninspired cover. Which is why I stipulated generic books. I don't think SJ is interested in paying out for a big name liscence and I don't think he's willing to try developing an inspired or evocative setting with great art and fiction. But if "play it your way" is one of your strengths you should play to that Strength. Don't get me wrong, I'd love to see GURPS tied to a really popular setting but it seems vanishingly unlikely.
Quote from: RPGPundit;647069So what do you think they need?
What do you think would be the trick to making GURPS a bigger success?
Three books, one for Fantasy, then Sci-Fi, and Horror. Each book has everything you need to play that particular genre using GURPS. The implied setting would be similar to the market leaders for each category (D&D, Traveller or Star Wars, Call of Cthulu)
The implied setting would be tweaked to show off GURPS emphasis on making the character you want, a combat system that is deadlier and has tactical detail. In short it will be a GURPS version of what the market leaders do. Not an attempt to emulate the leading systems of the market.
For example this is where Dungeon Fantasy misses the point as Sean Punch choose to try to emulate D&D style dungeon crawls with character roughly as durable as midlevel D&D character. To do that they had to base characters on 250 pts.
It should have have been how a bunch of 150 pt character deal with a dungeon and support that. Which is what I been doing in the Majestic Wilderlands since the late 80s.
Finally produce one or two adventures for each of the genres. And don't make them whacked out for example Transhuman Space versus Traveller Imperium/Star Wars. Or choosing Discworld as your standalone Fantasy Setting.
So the idea is that you take this 144 page books and have a complete RPG. People can buy it and learn GURPS. Then move on to the corebooks and the supplemental books.
The objections of course this would cannibalize sales of the core books. And my answer is that if your sales of the line have decreased because the market considers your presentation to be approached what is the point of keeping it the way it is?
Another object is that they give out GURPS Lite for free. While it is a good product it is only a PDF online and not something they see in the store.
However I been saying this since the early 2000s and because of the impact of the internet, I think my strategy is out of date as game store are just part of the package these days.
To revive GURPS in 2013 It would take a good organized play program using GURPS Lite as the foundation, some type of open license again using GURPS Lite (especially for adventures and settings), and a series of support products for specific genres which they are doing (Monster Hunters, Dungeon Fantasy, Action!).
The problem is that Munchkin design time is vastly more profitable than GURPS design time. The only answer I think a type of open license and let the fans do the work in reviving the system.
I like the idea of showcasing GURPS' strengths. I haven't bought a single Dungeon Fantasy product. They said 250 points and I said not interested. But yeah, I'd carry those books. I don't need them as a gamer but as a store I really do need them.