Campaigns and Fantasy might come in handy too

But don't get me wrong, you can run a fantasy campaign with nothing more than the GURPS Basic Set Book 1: Characters.  Magic is covered and you could always use advantages instead of the standard magic system if you want something a little more direct.  IRRC there's even templates for a few basic fantasy races in there.  Horses and other animals are in the Campaigns book but you can build a horse with Characters if you're so inclined.  Indeed you can even play a horse if you want.

GURPS 4e was written by a particle physicist, and it shows.

Because it works but everyone's uncertain why that is?

Or perhaps because the game exists in a state in which it is both alive and dead similtaneously?

Quote from: David Johansen;645160Because it works but everyone's uncertain why that is?

Or perhaps because the game exists in a state in which it is both alive and dead similtaneously?

I thought it relates to the amount of heavy mathematics.

Quote from: David Johansen;645160because the game exists in a state in which it is both alive and dead similtaneously?

That is actually very insightful.

Quote from: David Johansen;645160Because it works but everyone's uncertain why that is?

Or perhaps because the game exists in a state in which it is both alive and dead similtaneously?

The system is really good. The presentation and organization is what keeps folks away.

Quote from: Piestrio;645106And thus they turn from awesome to dumb in a single sentence.

The idea behind Dungeon Fantasy, Monster Hunters, Action!, etc is to implement the GURPS core book for a narrow genre.

They sit between a setting supplement and the generic core. For example you can run any of the the modern fantasy show ( Buffy, Supernatural, etc) with Monster Hunter. Dungeon Fantasy is about as setting specific as D&D.

While I am glad to have the DF series and it has proven very useful even in the 150 pt fantasy campaigns I run. It is only halfway to what GURPS needs to enjoy a broader appeal.

Which to reorganize all the details and release it in a single standalone powered by GURPS RPG.

Quote from: estar;645232Which to reorganize all the details and release it in a single standalone powered by GURPS RPG.

You know, I've heard you say this several times. And each time I do, I think to myself...

"You know, that man makes a lot of sense."

Just so you know.

Quote from: Kyle Aaron;645155GURPS 4e was written by a particle physicist, and it shows.

I disagree. The math is no more difficult than d20, D&D 4e or any other system with the similar number of options. The problem with GURPS is one of presentation. The core book is a reference for a referee to create their own campaign.

It is like Fate versus Fudge. with Fudge all you get are the tools to build your campaign. Fate started by implementing specific RPGs and became way more popular than Fudge even though they are practically the same system.

Quote from: Daddy Warpig;645236You know, I've heard you say this several times. And each time I do, I think to myself...

"You know, that man makes a lot of sense."

Just so you know.

Thanks

All I get are lame excuses from SJ Games Staff on this issue over on the SJ Games.

For the company it boils down to

SJ Games:
Manpower as Munchkin and board games are the bread and butter of SJ Games.

My Response: Yet you are still producing GURPS product why not focus on something that will expand the customer base of the line instead of your next hardcover being GURPS Zombies.  Something I think they will do well but is it what the line really needs?

SJ Games:
Our stable of Freelancers and staff writers are not interested in writing a GURPS D&D style RPG.

My Response:  At some point some projects should be done to keep the line healthy whether you are interested or not. Any maybe if you don't have such byzantine writer guidelines maybe you will have a larger pool of writers.

SJ Games:
RPGs are declining and no long a viable market for large and expensive projects.

My Response:
GURPS is declined faster than its competitors like Savage World and Fate because of the reputation of its presentation.  And some RPGs have done well despite the market collapse including one of GURPS Competitors, Evil Hat with Fate Core  which just raised $400,000 in their kickstarter.

There are others points that have been debated including some type of open license so other can have at it. But the basic situation that SJ Games is a company that make high quality product including some insanely great one but has developed blind spots that is crippling the popularity of GURPS. That unlike the 90s there are others with generic system that either match their quality, have better support, or just are good enough in everything else.

Quote from: Exploderwizard;645184The system is really good. The presentation and organization is what keeps folks away.

It really is on both counts.  The core books' organization is great, if you already know how GURPS works and what you're doing with it.  If you're coming in new and blind, it's atrocious.

I'm just spit balling here as I started with GURPS around 2000 with 3e, took a long break before coming back with 4e a little over a year ago, but I think the inmates are running the GURPS asylum.  Judging from the SJ Games forum, the GURPS Google+ circle and the releases on E23, everybody is focused on making increasingly Byzantine rules for increasingly narrow situations.  The end result of which is more and more baggage keeps people from getting into the system.

Rob's points above are very good and accurate.  GURPS needs someone with editorial oversight to bring the system back to basics with obvious entry points via genre books that are geared for people to be able to read and understand easily.

Quote from: Dave;645272Rob's points above are very good and accurate.  GURPS needs someone with editorial oversight to bring the system back to basics with obvious entry points via genre books that are geared for people to be able to read and understand easily.

Yarp. The largest amount of prepwork for any GURPS 4E campaign is just combing through the basic books and deciding what to exclude depending on campaign needs.

Thanks for the replies, pity I fancied a look at DF.

Quote from: estar;645249Thanks

All I get are lame excuses from SJ Games Staff on this issue over on the SJ Games.

For the company it boils down to

I think it's closer to "For Steve it boils down to, I'm no longer interested in rpgs"

Quote from: estar;645237I disagree. The math is no more difficult than d20, D&D 4e or any other system with the similar number of options. The problem with GURPS is one of presentation.

I didn't say the mathematics was difficult. I said, it was written by a particle physicist, and it shows. It's like a uni textbook, not game rules.

What I mean by this it that it emphasises the building blocks rather than the system which puts the blocks together. For everyday life we don't need quantum mechanics, Newtonian physics is more than enough.

I mean also that the treatment is exhaustive: in how many games would PCs have the Two Heads advantage, for example?

As well, the writing is utterly without passion.

In these respects, GURPS4e is written like a university physics textbook.

To a degree, any generic rpg system is going to be boring to read. The setting stuff is what's interesting. This is why most rpgs have character creation examples, like GURPS1e-3e did, and RuneQuest, or classic Traveller. It livens things up a bit.

If the authour has really engaging writing or says some ridiculous things about gaming, or even offers useful advice, this can make up for the generic nature of the thing. This is why AD&D1e could be so successful despite being a big sprawling mess of a pair of books, or why the horrific confusion of World of Synnibar could be popular: rpgs are like sex, enthusiasm is more important than skill. You read their writing, however nonsensical, and you want to PLAY.

GURPS3e had some passion. GURPS4e has none.