Quote from: jeff37923;635945It may be futile, but I do not want a hobby I participate in to be associated with lawncrappers. I do not find paedophilia acceptable for actual play, especially in public.

...

Here is where you are putting words in my mouth and miss my point.

Privately, they can play whatever the fuck they want. I have no business in their private affairs. Publicly or when they are claiming to be representative of my hobby, no fucking way in Hell will I allow that to go unoppossed.

If some gore porn addict wants to masturbate to SAW in the privacy of his own home, that is his business. If he tries to do so at a convention or CD store, claiming that he is only doing what every other moviegoer does - then that is mightily fucked up.

Okay, maybe I'm just being pedantic about this, and reading some of Sacrosanct's post into yours, since I was responding to him first.  If you want the conventions and gaming stores you patronize to be free of stuff you think is fucked up, arguing for that is fair ball in my book.  Same for arguing that you don't want to see that shit on a internet forum, or mailing list, or what-have-you.

I don't think any of that can ever constitute kicking them out of the hobby, 'cuz they can just set up their own HentaCons (don't these already exist?) and you can't stop 'em, and as always the fringe will get the headlines.  Trying to kick the pervs out of gaming is exactly as productive as trying to kick the pervs out of movies and moviemaking, it's like trying to punch out the sky.

Quote from: Alathon;636024I don't think any of that can ever constitute kicking them out of the hobby, 'cuz they can just set up their own HentaCons (don't these already exist?) and you can't stop 'em, and as always the fringe will get the headlines.  Trying to kick the pervs out of gaming is exactly as productive as trying to kick the pervs out of movies and moviemaking, it's like trying to punch out the sky.

No worries. Maybe dealing with creepers in gaming is an act of eternal vigilance, keeping people informed outside of gaming that we shun them and do not find their crap acceptable. Otherwise we run the risk of both driving away long time gamers and people who might be interested in gaming but just haven't tried it yet.

I don't mind punching the sky for awhile in this case.

Quote from: Brad J. Murray;635982Why would an author imagine that a "replay" -- an example of play -- in a rule book be anything other than an indication of how play is expected to flow? What other purpose in the text could it possibly serve? It seems disingenuous to claim it's anything but a tool to teach the game.

Replays are read for entertainment, and even published in books of their own separately from the actual games. That's an aspect of the Japanese gaming subculture which has had no real counterpart in, say, the US RPG industry.

Quote from: Sacrosanct;635979With all the other sexual innuendos and wink wink shit going on, it's clear what the intent is.  Especially when the whole gist of the book comes down to: Teen girls + sexual references + doing favors for your master.

Except, of course, for all the maids who aren't teenagers, the scenarios which don't involve anything sexual, and the masters who aren't interested in pursuing the maids. But I'll have to say that you are, in fact, providing a model example of how leaving anything to the reader's imagination can be ill-advised, because some readers will leap to the very worst possible conclusions.

(Oh, and resorting to personal insults or screaming until you're blue in the face isn't going to sway me. I'm not that easily goaded.)

Here's the thing - while MAID probably has nothing to do with our hobby, focusing attention on it in an attempt to drum up moral outrage against it creates the perception that it does.  I'm an avid gamer, and I'd never heard of MAID before I came to this site.  I've never heard of MAID outside of the context of this site, either.  Assuming that it even exists, the only reason I know about it is because of gamers that keep announcing it to the world.

Sure, it sounds like a pretty despicable game.  And maybe people who enjoy it should be on a government watch list.  But it sounds like you can play the game in a non-exploitive-to-minors way.  Since I'm not going to pick up the game to find out how easy that might be, I'd prefer to just assume that most people play it in a non-fucked up way.  Likewise, in D&D, you can rape every child you meet.  There are no rules that prevent fucked-up-behavior.  Any RPG can feature some grusome things.  Having rules specifically in place to PREVENT such abhorrent bevhavior is stupid, because it focused attention on something that virtually nobody is going to think about unless the rules focus in on it.  

If I'm gathering things correctly, MAID is a translation of a game originally released in Japan.  Even for Japan, it's probably fucked up.  And in the United States, it's probably doubly so.  But if that's all the people invovled are doing - playing a game - then it's not such a big deal.  Ignore it, and nobody will associate those gamers with our hobby.

The bigger issue is that gamers are often seen as mouth-breathing basement-dwelling neckbeards that possess too few social skills and too much body-odor.  If you want to improve the perception of our hobby, GQ it up a little bit, get into a committed relationship with a member of your preferred gender, and don't use gaming as a virtual sexual arena.  

Once you're outside of that, sex in gaming is a non-issue.  If it suits the characters and the stories, it happens.  For most adults, it can happen off-screen and the specific details are immaterial.  As long as people aren't rolling a dice to judge their 'performance', it really doesn't matter.  

And if people are being juvenile and making the hobby look bad, well, you're not going to drive them out by telling them you disapprove.  The hobby is self-selecting, so as long as they can find like-minded players with whom to play, such gamers will exist.  To recruit players despite the negative stereotypes, be prepared to explain what the game DOES offer.

Quote from: Nexus;635977sex, politics and religion: the three worse topics to discuss with anyone that doesn't already agree with you.

People should be careful before discussing these issues. And they should never act surprised when it inevitably descends into hate speech, name calling and hysterics. Because it always does.

Quote from: The Yann Waters;636045Replays are read for entertainment, and even published in books of their own separately from the actual games. That's an aspect of the Japanese gaming subculture which has had no real counterpart in, say, the US RPG industry.

Ah, the "You don't understand Japanese culture" excuse.  Too bad pretty much everyone who has lived, or is currently living in Japan has said that excuse is bullshit.

QuoteExcept, of course, for all the maids who aren't teenagers, the scenarios which don't involve anything sexual, and the masters who aren't interested in pursuing the maids. But I'll have to say that you are, in fact, providing a model example of how leaving anything to the reader's imagination can be ill-advised, because some readers will leap to the very worst possible conclusions.

(Oh, and resorting to personal insults or screaming until you're blue in the face isn't going to sway me. I'm not that easily goaded.)

The game is filled with preteen examples of NPCs.  Those are options you can roll up on the charts.  It's FILLED with sexual innuendos.  It has examples of children being sexually assaulted as the way to play the game (until finally bowing to pressure to remove only that part, but to leave all the other creepy parts in).  And yet here you are, again, waving that away.  I shouldn't be surprised.  Googling up every thread about Maid in the past 5 years on other forums, and one thing is consistent.  You.  In every thread, no matter the forum, you're there defending the game.  

You are exactly like that NAMBLA guy arguing that there's nothing wrong there either, using similar arguments.

So, do you just masturbate at sexploited children, or do you actively try to hurt them yourself?  I'm just trying to figure out what level of disgust you actually operate on.

Quote from: deadDMwalking;636046Sure, it sounds like a pretty despicable game.  And maybe people who enjoy it should be on a government watch list.  But it sounds like you can play the game in a non-exploitive-to-minors way.  Since I'm not going to pick up the game to find out how easy that might be, I'd prefer to just assume that most people play it in a non-fucked up way.  Likewise, in D&D, you can rape every child you meet.  There are no rules that prevent fucked-up-behavior.  Any RPG can feature some grusome things.  Having rules specifically in place to PREVENT such abhorrent bevhavior is stupid, because it focused attention on something that virtually nobody is going to think about unless the rules focus in on it.  .

No, here's the thing you're missing, and it's a significant difference.  In D&D, child sexploitation won't ever come up unless you specifically add it there.  In Maid, you have to actively ignore or change the rules to avoid it.  If you play RAW, you will eventually have preteens and teens in the game in scenarios that are sexually explicit.  You will have to seduce that 13 year old boy master.

"Hey, it's just on the tables, and you can ignore that."

Bullshit.  Those rules were put there with the knowledge that these sick scenarios will come up.  They were put there intentionally as part of the game design process.  Child sexploitation in that game isn't an accident, it was designed into the game.  It's like arguing that you could play D&D without any magic.  Sure, you technically could, but it's clearly not intended that way.

Quote from: Sacrosanct;636052Bullshit.  Those rules were put there with the knowledge that these sick scenarios will come up.  They were put there intentionally as part of the game design process.  Child sexploitation in that game isn't an accident, it was designed into the game.  It's like arguing that you could play D&D without any magic.  Sure, you technically could, but it's clearly not intended that way.

So you think that nobody should play the game.  That's fine.  I don't think anyone should play the game, either.  I don't.  I won't.  

But you're not going to shame someone that likes the game into not liking the game and/or not playing it.  Either they don't agree with your assessment (which to be fair, I don't know [or care] if it is accurate) or they're shamelessly into child exploitation.  

So, you're not going to change anyone's mind with an impassioned speech about how morally reprehensible the game is - all you're doing is cementing in the minds of people that people who like RPGs are into child exploitation.  Because, you see, the terms we're throwing about get thrown into a search engine.  

If you don't like MAID (and I think you have plenty of good reasons not to), you're best off completely ignoring it.  You can't make it go away, and by focusing attention on it, you're only encouraging people to take it up - even if only to judge for themselves whether it's a sick-as-fuck game or you're overreacting.  

Since I imagine you're not interested in raising the sales figures of the game, ignore it.  You remind me of John Goodman's character in the 1993 movie 'Matinee'.  He stands in front of the theater protesting the showing of a horror film, calling it 'ungodly entertainment', but the town, in an attempt to reject perceived censorship makes the opening night a smashing success.  Protest INCREASED the visibility and success of the movie.  So, maybe you're really passionate about saving children from sexploitation.  That's good, and laudable.  But if you're really serious about it, you should stop doing things that actually make it more likely instead of less.

deadDMwalking - I think to some degree you're right about Maid as far as this forum goes.  I don't think any players of it are likely to be convinced by discussion here.  

On the other hand, Maid is discussed and promoted in other forums.  It does have some support, and I see it being played at several conventions or other gatherings.  I played it first as a playtest of the translation at Gen Con, and have seen it played several other times at conventions or mini-cons.  In these communities, I think it should be spoken against.  

Incidentally, there were no under-age characters in the two games I played.  We chose the ages of our characters, which I believe is strictly by the rules.  So while I agree that the book content is creepy, I don't think the same of all players of it.

Quote from: GrumpyReviews;635971Sex makes people stupid.

Sexual discussions are always the third rail.

Not always.

You got stupid over poorly researched racial demographics in gaming.

Quote from: deadDMwalking;636046The bigger issue is that gamers are often seen as mouth-breathing basement-dwelling neckbeards that possess too few social skills and too much body-odor.  If you want to improve the perception of our hobby, GQ it up a little bit, get into a committed relationship with a member of your preferred gender, and don't use gaming as a virtual sexual arena.  

However, as even you have admitted, having games like Maid or FATAL or Poison'd floating around don't help that image of gamers at all.

Yeah, I think it's safe to say we as gamers are in a pretty bad place when the reaction to child sexploitation is just to ignore it.  It doesn't matter if some, or even most players of Maid don't roleplay out scenarios of child sexploitation.  The fact is, is that that game includes it as something is either outright encouraged (see quotes from the game), or puts itself as, "If you want to roleplay out child sexual assault, we totally got rules for you!"  Like I said, you have to literally ignore or change the rules to avoid the chance of ever sexploiting a child in the game.  It's hard coded people.  Doesn't matter if it's a random table result.  It's there.


The answer is not to just ignore it.  For fuck's sake people.  At what low point have you sunk when child sexploitation just doesn't matter?  I don't care if it doesn't happen at my table.  Someone who gets their rocks off roleplaying out scenarios where children are sexually assaulted is not an "It's OK as long as it's private" sort of thing.  It's a trait of a fucked up human being that needs to be called out at every turn.

Jesus, it's no wonder why the creepy gamer stereotype still exists.

Quote from: Sacrosanct;636082Jesus, it's no wonder why the creepy gamer stereotype still exists.

I'm beginning the think the whole "You don't need to be ashamed of what you like! Let your geek flag fly!" might have been a bad idea.

It just sent a message to all the creepers that they could come join our parade.

It seems to be happening with more and more fandoms. Furries, Anime, Ponies, etc...

Quote from: Sacrosanct;636052Ah, the "You don't understand Japanese culture" excuse.  Too bad pretty much everyone who has lived, or is currently living in Japan has said that excuse is bullshit.

Too bad, too, that you are once again reading something into my post that simply isn't there. I was asked what other reason there is to publish the play reports, and I answered with the objective fact of replays as part of the Japanese gaming subculture. That has nothing to do with "you just don't understand" excuses.

Quote from: Sacrosanct;636052The game is filled with preteen examples of NPCs. Those are options you can roll up on the charts.  It's FILLED with sexual innuendos.  It has examples of children being sexually assaulted as the way to play the game (until finally bowing to pressure to remove only that part, but to leave all the other creepy parts in).

What, by "filled with preteen examples of NPCs" you mean all three of them? (Those would be Yugami from the rules examples, Mao from "Black Cat Mansion", and Eve from "Liberty".) Yes, as mentioned earlier, the chargen chart method for rolling up butlers and masters can result in two-year-olds as well as the elderly: imagine, for example, a cadre of maids charged with protecting an infant of royal blood from the armies of a pretender who has seized the throne. Yes, Maid does contain a certain amount of innuendo, and obviously the range of reactions to having that in the same book with child(-like) characters shows that the author's "funny-sexy" attitude as opposed to "creepy-sexy" wasn't quite conveyed successfully. But none of that coerces the players into anything unseemly.

The Rie/Kana situation was ill-advised from the start, but it's also clearly not a "broomstick rape scene" as some detractors would have you believe. Child abuse? In a loose sense, yes, and unfortunately suggestive. Actual sexual assault? No. I can honestly say that I can't see it in any of the book.

(You'll have to pardon me for ignoring any accusations of an unhealthy interest in children. Frankly, those don't merit a response other than a categorical "nope".)

Quote from: Sacrosanct;636052In D&D, child sexploitation won't ever come up unless you specifically add it there.  In Maid, you have to actively ignore or change the rules to avoid it.  If you play RAW, you will eventually have preteens and teens in the game in scenarios that are sexually explicit.  You will have to seduce that 13 year old boy master.

That's either severely misinformed or a blatant lie, considering that seduction in itself is not only completely optional but also not even part of the original core game. And if you do make use of the mechanic, "seduction" doesn't necessarily lead to sex in Maid: the term broadly covers emotionally overwhelming someone to your side, little different from Charm Person in D&D. Saying "I love you"? That's a by-the-book example of a seduction. Everything "sexually explicit" in the game is an option for the groups that want those (earning Favour for intimacy with the master, for example), and even in that case, the events can be glossed over without any trouble.

Quote from: deadDMwalking;636046But it sounds like you can play the game in a non-exploitive-to-minors way.  Since I'm not going to pick up the game to find out how easy that might be, I'd prefer to just assume that most people play it in a non-fucked up way.

They do, which is precisely the reason why I keep pointing out the inaccuracies in the claims about the game until that one day finally sinks in. For the record, these are the sample scenarios included in the book:

"Please Be Our Demon King": The demon maids who take care of a ten-level fantasy dungeon are interviewing candidates (all of them women fleeing from somewhere else) for the position of the Big Bad after their former boss came down with a lethal case of random adventurers. In the meantime, the monsters must be fed and the traps oiled.

"Happy Birthday!": The shy young master's birthday will be in a week, and so the maids prepare a surprise party, scrounging up decorations, cakes, and presents. Yes, that's all there is to it.

"Black Cat Mansion": The maids have been sent away to fix up an old family mansion so that their absent brat of a master can move in. However, they must first deal with a strange doctor who's taken up residence there, as well as a catgirl ghost who's taken on the role of the estate's guardian spirit.

"Maids Take the Stage": Much like in a maid-themed episode of Who Wants to Marry a Millionaire?, the characters have been gathered together in a remote mansion to compete for the privilege of marrying a powerful master. Secretly, however, there may be an assassin lurking among them.

"Miko RPG!": Instead of maids as such, this scenario revolves around Shinto shrine maidens who in the name of the god Igukami guard the buried prison of an ancient evil against its Lovecraftian minions and bunny-eared priestesses, as the final reckoning draws near.

"Rise of the Demon King": A.k.a. "Please Be Our Demon King: The Sequel", in which the demon maids leave the dungeon and set out to conquer the rest of the world for their new master, leading the armies of darkness until a great hero finally appears to challenge them.

"Treasure Hunt!": The master fancies himself as a bit of an Indiana Jones, and now seeks the legendary buried treasure of Tokugawa. However, the excavation soon runs into trouble with environmentalist demonstrations and the schemes of one corrupt politician with plans of his own for that plot of land, and the master needs help not to lose faith in the project.

"Operation Love Academy": In the prestigious Richmond Academy, the freshman master has fallen in love at first sight with the most popular girl at the school. Can his loyal maids help him win her heart despite the hordes of other students who try to keep them apart?

"Maidenrangers of Love and Justice": The Maid Board Game. The HQ of Maid Sentai Maidenrangers, the X-City Branch Office of JUSTICE, Inc, has been invaded by the forces of the Evil Emperor. The sentai maids must fight their way around the sixteen rooms of the mansion, searching for useful items as close in on the Emperor's lair.

"Invincible Justibine": New maids at the Saionji Foundation's research facility on a faraway artificial island discover that they've been hired for a different reason that they might have expected: to pilot the General-Purpose Humanoid Weapon Justibine, a cutting-edge giant robot, against an impending alien invasion.

"Liberty: The Final Maid Maiden": The Maid Hazard has changed the world. Spreading out from the Internet, the enigmatic phenomenon transformed a significant portion of the global population into superpowered maids, who initially were reduced to servitude but then rebelled against their masters. Now, in the year 50 AM ("After Maid"), only seven Master Cities remain of Old Humanity, and Osaka Geofront has called for volunteers to don the experimental, and colour-coded, suits which mimic the powers of the Maid Empire. Their mission: to find and confront the Final Maid, whose arrival signifies the ultimate end of the old order.

Note that in "Please Be Our Demon King" the PCs are essentially shopping for a master that suits them, in "Black Cat Mansion" the master never shows up in person during play, in "Miko RPG!" the master is a deity without any physical manifestation, and in "Liberty" the remnants of the old human species are the "masters".

Quote from: jhkim;636073Incidentally, there were no under-age characters in the two games I played.  We chose the ages of our characters, which I believe is strictly by the rules.  So while I agree that the book content is creepy, I don't think the same of all players of it.

Right. The names and the ages are the only details which are never rolled for maid PCs: the players always decide those, and it wouldn't make sense for, say, a chainsmoking CIA agent from the random charts to be a preteen. The youngest maid I've seen in actual play was sixteen.

Quote from: The Yann Waters;636093That's either severely misinformed or a blatant lie, considering that seduction in itself is not only completely optional but also not even part of the original core game. And if you do make use of the mechanic, "seduction" doesn't necessarily lead to sex in Maid: the term broadly covers emotionally overwhelming someone to your side, little different from Charm Person in D&D. Saying "I love you"? That's a by-the-book example of a seduction. Everything "sexually explicit" in the game is an option for the groups that want those (earning Favour for intimacy with the master, for example), and even in that case, the events can be glossed over without any trouble.

You really don't seem to understand.

I, and I'd hazard most normal people, don't want ANYTHING AT ALL to do with child sexploitation to be ANY PART of any entertainment product. EVER.

"doesn't necessarily lead to sex", "optional", "option", "can be glossed over" are not words that suddenly make child porn a-okay.

Saying you can just "ignore the pre-teen sexual part, it's totally optional" is several levels of fucked up.

You're a sick fuck.  That's all there is to it.  That scene described above with the broomstick along with a note by the author of "we'll leave it up to you as to what's happening wink wink" and you are honestly saying that it's not implying a sexual scenario?  I'm here to tell you that making a 10 year old strip naked and suggestively ride a broomstick is in fact sexual assault.  What next, you don't think it's sexual assault because "they wanted it"?

Sorry to invoke you GMS, but this is such a clear example of Skarka's law it's disgusting.  You're making excuse after excuse for inexcusable behavior.

QuoteThat's either severely misinformed or a blatant lie, considering that seduction in itself is not only completely optional but also not even part of the original core game.

Is it not entirely possible, using RAW and not ignoring or changing any of them, to have the players in a situation where they have to, or are highly encouraged to from a mechanical sense, to seduce a young male child master?

Just because you personally aren't describing in detail how you're fondling his balls doesn't make the sentence, "I am going to seduce the 13 year old boy" any less disgusting.

Quoteight. The names and the ages are the only details which are never rolled for maid PCs: the players always decide those, and it wouldn't make sense for, say, a chainsmoking CIA agent from the random charts to be a preteen. The youngest maid I've seen in actual play was sixteen.

This doesn't help your case at all.  Even if the players all chose adults, they still run into scenarios where they have to seduce young children.  In what way is "A group of adult women (players) in a game full of sexual innuendos and scenarios needing to seduce a 13 year old boy." acceptable?