TheRPGSite

So, the AW "sex moves" discussion here (http://www.therpgsite.com/showthread.php?t=25883&page=4) got me curious.

What do you think of sex in your games? How many times the characters or npcs had sex, and how it went out?

In our group that hapenned 3 or 4 times, if I remeber right. We never narrated the actual process, though. And curiously, it just hapenned in urban games of Vampire and Shadowrun. Never with Gurps fantasy or BRP/Runequest. About specific mechanics related to sex, like AW sex moves, we never used it (in fact we played AW some times and had great fun with it, but never used the sex moves). But we have extensively used habilities or mechanics that can lead to sex (persuasion, sex appeal, Vampires presence and domination, Shadowrun tailored pheromones, AW skinner moves, etc).

It's happened a few times. Sex is a significant component in conflict, so it inevitably comes up. It's come up much less often than killing people, though, which is a little disconcerting out of context.

Almost never comes up.  Non issue

Never had some up in my games; perhaps because of the type of RPGs I play, or don't play? The only "urban" RPG I've played is Unknown Armies, and horror and weirdness got much more of the spotlight.

I don't have any desire to roleplay out, or mechanically-resolve, a sexual encounter while playing. And, it's never been used as a conflict point in the campaigns I've run, or played in.

This issue often comes up (no pun intended) and the answer is usually the same - people more or less avoid sex in games.

No love for the Book of Erotic Fantasy. Mass murder gets a thumbs up, though.

Well, from time to time it's necessary to start shouting "FADE TO BLACK!  FADE TO BLACK!!"  But that's as far as it goes.

Quote from: silva;633738So, the AW "sex moves" discussion here (http://www.therpgsite.com/showthread.php?t=25883&page=4) got me curious.

What do you think of sex in your games? How many times the characters or npcs had sex, and how it went out?

In our group that hapenned 3 or 4 times, if I remeber right. We never narrated the actual process, though. And curiously, it just hapenned in urban games of Vampire and Shadowrun. Never with Gurps fantasy or BRP/Runequest. About specific mechanics related to sex, like AW sex moves, we never used it (in fact we played AW some times and had great fun with it, but never used the sex moves). But we have extensively used habilities or mechanics that can lead to sex (persuasion, sex appeal, Vampires presence and domination, Shadowrun tailored pheromones, AW skinner moves, etc).

Came up a whole lot more when we were in high school and overly concerned with getting laid.

Teenage kid stuff.

Nowadays? Not so much.

Quote from: Tommy Brownell;633759Came up a whole lot more when we were in high school and overly concerned with getting laid.

Teenage kid stuff.

Nowadays? Not so much.

My experience as well

Quote from: silva;633738What do you think of sex in your games? How many times the characters or npcs had sex, and how it went out?

In our group that hapenned 3 or 4 times, if I remeber right. We never narrated the actual process, though. And curiously, it just hapenned in urban games of Vampire and Shadowrun. Never with Gurps fantasy or BRP/Runequest. About specific mechanics related to sex, like AW sex moves, we never used it (in fact we played AW some times and had great fun with it, but never used the sex moves). But we have extensively used habilities or mechanics that can lead to sex (persuasion, sex appeal, Vampires presence and domination, Shadowrun tailored pheromones, AW skinner moves, etc).

I've consider it the norm that if we're playing adult characters living their lives, that sex is going to come up - but also the norm that it isn't going to be treated in detail.  So it's come up quite a bit, and isn't considered a big deal.  

I have noticed the tendency you mentioned in fantasy and sci-fi games that goes beyond sex - that PCs often live like homeless, celibate wanderers with no family, romance, or social life.  I find it odd.  My fantasy games tend to be different.  In my Vinland game, for example, most of the PCs had marriages arranged for them over the course of the campaign.  When I played Mouse Guard, my PC was something of a rake in the style of the Three Musketeers.  

(I don't care for AW's sex moves, but I would note that there's nothing explicit or graphic about them.  They just specify a mechanics result for what happens - so you draw a curtain over the scene, and then note down the effect this has on the game.)

I find if I have sex when i am playing, even if its just on my own, the opther players generally get a bit embarrased and make excuses about why they have to leave early.

Seriously its only come up in James Bond games and then its the "where and when" roll which is step 5 of the James Bond seduction sequence and a rank 1 sucess might get you a hero point and a couple of claps on the back and a muttered 'well done sir'.

We have had rapes, prostitution and other sexual elements but always with a fade to black pretty early in the process.

I recall at college a couple of girls pretending to be interested in RPG for their own nefarious reasons and those 1:1 demo games going off at something of a tangent. But those i am sure don't really count.

Quote from: jibbajibba;633768I recall at college a couple of girls pretending to be interested in RPG for their own nefarious reasons and those 1:1 demo games going off at something of a tangent. But those i am sure don't really count.

lol :D

It comes up like any other topic. Characters may be searching for someone to spend the night with at an inn, agents of MI6 might want to seduce their way past the BBEG's secretary, some relationship may evolve between PCs, or PCs and NPCs, but it's not something that happens all the time, or that the game focuses on, or a big deal really, in any sense of the word.

Quote from: Benoist;633772It comes up like any other topic. Characters may be searching for someone to spend the night with at an inn, agents of MI6 might want to seduce their way past the BBEG's secretary, some relationship may evolve between PCs, or PCs and NPCs, but it's not something that happens all the time, or that the game focuses on, or a big deal really, in any sense of the word.

the relationship thing I am big on. the sex is the bit I find icky.

So if the Danny August 004 (as he was bless him) seduces the Greek Oligarc's daughter she stays in play and we build as much as we can into the relationship. Arguments, emotions, small gifts, romantic messages. Because we played together for so many years I know exactly what behaviours to use to manipulate my players and I do it all the time.

Quote from: silva;633738So, the AW "sex moves" discussion here (http://www.therpgsite.com/showthread.php?t=25883&page=4) got me curious.

What do you think of sex in your games? How many times the characters or npcs had sex, and how it went out?

In our group that hapenned 3 or 4 times, if I remeber right. We never narrated the actual process, though. And curiously, it just hapenned in urban games of Vampire and Shadowrun. Never with Gurps fantasy or BRP/Runequest. About specific mechanics related to sex, like AW sex moves, we never used it (in fact we played AW some times and had great fun with it, but never used the sex moves). But we have extensively used habilities or mechanics that can lead to sex (persuasion, sex appeal, Vampires presence and domination, Shadowrun tailored pheromones, AW skinner moves, etc).

Sex, relationships and related subjects come up fairly often in my games both as background, flavor and motivation for stories and characters. Things are generally more detailed in online games than F2F and the frequency of sex and sexuality coming up in game definitely increased when we got more women in our group.

Well, we don't roleplay sex out if thats what you're asking. Players can get laid, if they like. It happens "offscreen", but I'll award an Arete* bonus for it.



* - the Karma/Hero/Fate/Determination points of my preferred system.

I have no interest in sitting around the table with the guys roleplaying out sex details. We've certainly had characters who were sexually active in game, and we've had characters in relationships with other PCs or NPCs. But yeah, no one wants to play out a set of manoeuvre mechanics.

As a young teenager, sure it was different.

The characters in my campaign are swashbucklers. Seduction and courtship are as routine as duels.

There's a time and place for sexy roleplaying, and at the gaming table isn't it.

We treat it in games as we treat it in real life.

It happens, but people generally don't talk about it. Unless it is particularly open, blatant or important to the plot then it doesn't really figure.

No sex in my games. It makes a mess of the table and the dice and minis stick into all sorts of places.

Seduction, courtship, and sex-motivated action in general are not really an unusal ocurrence in my games. Last time was a couple sessions back in the WFRP game, with the female Bounty Hunter seducing a merchant's Norskan Berserker bodyguard; I faded to black as soon as the two lovebirds found themselves a love nest (the stables, of course) and clothes started coming out, which is pretty much my standard operational procedure with le sexytime in RPGs.

That's how I usually handle it and I don't think I'd be comfortable with graphic descriptions.

I have no idea how AW sex moves work. But if they can be handled like I've described above, I don't think I'd have a problem with them specifically.

Quote from: Orpheo;633818No sex in my games. It makes a mess of the table and the dice and minis stick into all sorts of places.

:D

Quote from: The Butcher;633825I faded to black as soon as the two lovebirds found themselves a love nest (the stables, of course) and clothes started coming out, which is pretty much my standard operational procedure with le sexytime in RPGs.

That's how I usually handle it and I don't think I'd be comfortable with graphic descriptions.

I have no idea how AW sex moves work. But if they can be handled like I've described above, I don't think I'd have a problem with them specifically.

Yes, this fits with sex moves in Apocalypse World and Monsterhearts.  The rules only specify a mechanics effect that happens after sex.  So the above scene might then follow with one of the characters marking down a bonus for their next challenge, and one of them noting down a change in their relationship stat.

I banged a copy of Unearthed Arcana once.

Quote from: jibbajibba;633768I find if I have sex when i am playing, even if its just on my own, the other players generally get a bit embarrased and make excuses about why they have to leave early.

Snicker...so J, did the player you were GMing for at the time get extra exp?  




*DODGE  WEAVE  DODGE*

Quote from: silva;633738What do you think of sex in your games?

Sex tends to be an aspect of character behavior, so it can happen in game.

Quote from: silva;633738How many times the characters or npcs had sex, and how it went out?

 

Sex happens off-screen. I don't feel the need to go into graphic detail at the table because that usually makes everyone uncomfortable. I can't recall how many, but it usually was more or less genre appropriate (like not a lot of sex but a lot of innuendo in a Victorian game while a Sword & Sorcery game had sex happening more often than romance).

We definitely didn't need any kind of rules for sex.

Lotsa wenching.

I run Crimson Cutlass (best pirate RPG evar!) and players invariably go wenching in port. Female players playing male pirates are often the most hysterical at the table in their "let's go wenching!" bravado.

In my OD&D games, its more bronze age sword and sorcery so for some reason, more wench romping than my other D&D games.

Lotsa hookups in 7th Sea games. What's the point of saving the Duke's daughter if you aren't gonna get some bow-chicka-wow-wow? Hey, I play a renown Castillian duellist Jose Del Fuego, don't blame me.

My more modern games like Shadowrun generally have courtships and PCs looking for dates, hookups, etc in downtime. I encourage it because it creates NPC ties and history.

The romance angle has come up a few times, but the games where that happened usually didn't last long enough for anyone to actually get physical.

Now that my play-by-post moved off a public board onto a private one, things will probably get racier. We've got harpies after us at the moment, and the pics I posted earlier today wouldn't have been okay on many public forums.

No s3xx0ring the harpies, though -- they've got bad breath.

Quote from: One Horse Town;633840I banged a copy of Unearthed Arcana once.

Which version? 'Cause some are saucier than others.

Quote from: GrumpyReviews;633919Which version? 'Cause some are saucier than others.

Yeah, mine has chilli sauce stains all over chapter 3.

Quote from: One Horse Town;633840I banged a copy of Unearthed Arcana once.

Well, that explains a lot.

My current DM --who was also my main DM in college-- has this big, um, fascination with sex in RPGs.  In spite of the fact that a) we're all over 40, b) we've all been around the block a bit, and c) we avoid his overtures like the plague, he still keeps throwing sex into our campaign.

Considering that this outsized and vocally explicit interest in sex is present in his real life, I suppose it is only natural that it bubbles over into his campaign.  But at the same time, I can't help but think that there's a time and place for everything, and when I'm playing a pencil and paper RPG I'm not trying to think about sex all the time.  

Maybe that's not realistic to being a hero awash in testosterone and muscles (and/or other attributes), but a lack of sex is true to the sort of game I want to play.  From my perspective, getting into sex with an RPG session feels juvenile at best and voyeuristic at worst.  I've known people who left gaming groups when their S.O. started referencing their own sex lives in descriptions, and that doesn't even start in on the "let's rape somebody!" that an idiot once blurted out at a game table.

Romance is a bit of a different story, because that can be a useful plot device  without veering into sexual details.  I can find it more believable having a romance with an NPC and not feel too uncomfortable about the visual cues a DM would make, versus looking over and seeing "Jimmy the DM" asking me details about how I'm having sex with an NPC.

Romance, sex, marriage, children, etc. are all common in most of the campaigns I've ran over the years. Sex happens off stage, of course, although depending the situation there can be a die roll or two associated with it (e.g. getting info out of your partner or the like).

Quote from: Orpheo;633818No sex in my games. It makes a mess of the table and the dice and minis stick into all sorts of places.

Sex during the game isn't nearly as much of a problem as Monty Python quotes and discussions of this week's The Walking Dead.

JG

Which reduce the chance of sex to zero anyhow.

Quote from: David Johansen;633992Which reduce the chance of sex to zero anyhow.

Not with some players.

JG

Quote from: silva;633738So, the AW "sex moves" discussion here (http://www.therpgsite.com/showthread.php?t=25883&page=4) got me curious.

What do you think of sex in your games? How many times the characters or npcs had sex, and how it went out?

In our group that hapenned 3 or 4 times, if I remeber right. We never narrated the actual process, though. And curiously, it just hapenned in urban games of Vampire and Shadowrun. Never with Gurps fantasy or BRP/Runequest. About specific mechanics related to sex, like AW sex moves, we never used it (in fact we played AW some times and had great fun with it, but never used the sex moves). But we have extensively used habilities or mechanics that can lead to sex (persuasion, sex appeal, Vampires presence and domination, Shadowrun tailored pheromones, AW skinner moves, etc).

Sex, marriages, children and romantic relationships happen frequently in my games. As the PCs are usually human beings, roleplaying them properly should include the need for coupling, establishing relationships, or just having a fun romp. Anyway, we usually roleplay the seduction part, and let the rest happen off-screen once the clothes start getting in the way.

Of course it is going to vary according to the game: in my 7th Sea game, it happens all the time. In my CoC campaign (the other game I'm running) it happens less frequently (though it happens, as we are playing in the Orient Express and man, it's the perfect place :D)

Quote from: Imperator;634023Sex, marriages, children and romantic relationships happen frequently in my games. As the PCs are usually human beings, roleplaying them properly should include the need for coupling, establishing relationships, or just having a fun romp. Anyway, we usually roleplay the seduction part, and let the rest happen off-screen once the clothes start getting in the way.

Of course it is going to vary according to the game: in my 7th Sea game, it happens all the time. In my CoC campaign (the other game I'm running) it happens less frequently (though it happens, as we are playing in the Orient Express and man, it's the perfect place :D)

This is more or less how our group deals with it. Some characters are obsessed with serial shagging, others want love and romance, some are in long term relationships, and others are too obsessed with hunting KGB moles, or mastering necromancy, or revenging their slaughtered family to find time for true love or no-strings sexual encounters. Fade to black when the clothes come off for either romantic love or mindless humping.

Quote from: flyerfan1991;633935From my perspective, getting into sex with an RPG session feels juvenile at best and voyeuristic at worst.

I think avoiding sex in a roleplaying game is pretty juvenile. It's okay to roleplay serial murderers or GoT-like political schemers, but handling a seduction in-character is "icky?" For Christ's fucking sake.

And please, do any of you honestly think that we handle sex in-game like it was fucking Penthouse forum article?

Quote from: Black Vulmea;634077I think avoiding sex in a roleplaying game is pretty juvenile. It's okay to roleplay serial murderers or GoT-like political schemers, but handling a seduction in-character is "icky?" For Christ's fucking sake.

And please, do any of you honestly think that we handle sex in-game like it was fucking Penthouse forum article?

You've never played with my DM.  That IS how he does it.

"I never thought it would happen to me. This girl's Charisma score was through the roof. I mean she had double d20s, if you know what I mean..."

Quote from: Nexus;634172"I never thought it would happen to me. This girl's Charisma score was through the roof. I mean she had double d20s, if you know what I mean..."

"...but when she asked me about the length of my sword, I knew what she meant."

Quote from: flyerfan1991;634152You've never played with my DM.  That IS how he does it.

Yes, yes, water is wet, bad DM is bad.

That doesn't change the fact that actively avoiding sexual encounters between characters is pretty gawddamned bizarre to me.

Quote from: Black Vulmea;634205Yes, yes, water is wet, bad DM is bad.

That doesn't change the fact that actively avoiding sexual encounters between characters is pretty gawddamned bizarre to me.

Why should it be bizarre?  People don't mix work and sexual encounters, so why should they necessarily put it in their RPG?

Quote from: flyerfan1991;634259Why should it be bizarre?  People don't mix work and sexual encounters, so why should they necessarily put it in their RPG?

This was basically what I was going to say.

In highschool we had a hard enough time keeping Mike from relaying his latest real life sexual conquest in vivid detail.  ("...like bullets man!  Bullets!")  Games were escapist then as now.  I wouldn't want to share that stuff with most people in the real world, even though it is completely mature and absolutely obviously going on 'off screen'.

Quote from: flyerfan1991;634259Why should it be bizarre?

Do your roleplaying game experiences completely exclude anything that fundamentally resembles the human experience?

People fuck around, they fall in love, they hook up, they break up. The idea that this happening in a roleplaying game is "icky" and something to be avoided at all costs is much more embarrassing and childish than maturely dealing with it.

And if you don't think you and your group can handle relationships and sex maturely, what the fuck makes you think they can handle anything else maturely, either? I mean, Christ, this lends just as much weight to the whole 'gamers are social retards!' meme as your fucked-up DM does.

Quote from: flyerfan1991;634259People don't mix work and sexual encounters, so why should they necessarily put it in their RPG?

Playing a roleplaying game is like work?

Seriously, I have no idea what the fuck you're trying to say here.

We don't avoid it, but it never comes up-- I've tried introducing some romance hooks into some of my games, but my players have generally ignored them.

Quote from: Black Vulmea;634295Do your roleplaying game experiences completely exclude anything that fundamentally resembles the human experience?

People fuck around, they fall in love, they hook up, they break up. The idea that this happening in a roleplaying game is "icky" and something to be avoided at all costs is much more embarrassing and childish than maturely dealing with it.

And if you don't think you and your group can handle relationships and sex maturely, what the fuck makes you think they can handle anything else maturely, either? I mean, Christ, this lends just as much weight to the whole 'gamers are social retards!' meme as your fucked-up DM does.

So basically you're saying that because I don't want my RPGs to be a simulation of real life, I'm fucked up?

I'm playing a game.  I'm not writing the Great American Novel.  From my experience, injecting sex into an RPG is opening a can of worms unless all of the ground rules are explicitly specified ahead of time.  Which is also something that rarely happens in real life anyway.

Just saying "sex is normal so if your game doesn't have it means that you and your game are abnormal" doesn't impress me very much.  Believe it or not, but some people don't really want to mix sex with their RPGs.  Just like some people may or may not want to have a beer while watching the game on television.  If your prior experience of sex with RPGs is of the teenage testosterone-laden bodice ripping-Penthouse Forum variety, you're not going to be that interested in hearing a "let's have sex in the game" pop up in tabletalk.  Unless that's you're thing, that is, in which case hey, go for it.

QuotePlaying a roleplaying game is like work?

Seriously, I have no idea what the fuck you're trying to say here.

What, you never worked at a company that would fire people for sex in the office?  Or for fooling around on company time?  Just because something is normal doesn't mean that it has to be in your face all the time, or that others appreciate it.

Just like your example a few posts back about a very bloody, GoT-like campaign being okay but sex isn't, I'd also argue that sort of 'rivers of blood' campaign isn't okay for some people either.  That doesn't make them Pollyanna, but it means there are certain places they don't want to go in their RPG.

FWIW, I agree with most of what you say, flyerfan.  

I still do think there is a weird tendency for PCs to be homeless, celibate wanderers with no family, romance, or social life.  However, I don't consider it creepy or fucked up in any way, and I'm sure there are plenty of fine personal reasons for not having sex come up in-game.

A vow of chastity, for one.

But otherwise, yeah it happens. Kind of like real life.

Some are better at it than others. Different people have different expectations.

Again, kind of like real life.

Quote from: flyerfan1991;634324So basically you're saying that because I don't want my RPGs to be a simulation of real life, I'm fucked up?

That's not what you said.

You said it was "juvenile at best."

I think that's fucked up.

Quote from: Black Vulmea;634358That's not what you said.

You said it was "juvenile at best."

I think that's fucked up.

Yep, and that's my opinion formed from my years of gaming.  If my experiences had been different I might have a different opinion, but that's the breaks.

Quote from: One Horse Town;633840I banged a copy of Unearthed Arcana once.

Let me guess: the polearm section?

Quote from: jhkim;634337FWIW, I agree with most of what you say, flyerfan.  

I still do think there is a weird tendency for PCs to be homeless, celibate wanderers with no family, romance, or social life.  However, I don't consider it creepy or fucked up in any way, and I'm sure there are plenty of fine personal reasons for not having sex come up in-game.

In my games it tends to be pretty utilitarian. Most of the time it's just assumed to fall under carousing, which includes wine, women, song, gambling and other ways to pass the time while other PCs are busy, to blow money and most importantly to gain information.

Otherwise it usually comes up when a PC tries courting an NPC in order to form a pact or as a condition of inheriting titles, property and so on. I had one PC (a fighter who was 10th level and looking to set up his own stronghold) settle a feud this way with a noble family that held title to lands next to his own. In another case, the NPC nobles came courting the PC.

The only other instance I can think of was a hag (annis) who was so smitten by a PC bard with a very high Looks score (I fucking hate the word "comeliness") and high charisma stat kept trying to abduct and "marry" him, and made it clear she intended to kill his comrades and serve them as the main course at the wedding feast.

I decide if the suitor accomplishes his or her goal by first checking the Looks score for first impressions and possible charm/disgust (adjusted for the wisdom score of the one being pursued), then the standard reaction roll for recruiting henchmen/hirelings, adjusted by charisma. In the case of courting someone from a powerful family, it's a little more complicated: i.e. just because your dashing rogue won the heart of the princess doesn't mean her family will allow the marriage, and a casual roll in the hay will almost certainly start a vicious feud if they're discovered...

As a DM or player I don't really roleplay this part. It's a matter of "Ulfric will try to seduce the barmaid" or "Ulfric will try to win the hand of the thegn's niece".

This puts the game more into fairy tale territory than the typical fantasy/swords & sorcery milieu, but that can be a good thing.

Sorry to report that in my current Planescape Pathfinder game, a potential sex scene did not come to fruition.

Darn Paladins with vows of chastity.

Quote from: Bill;634440Sorry to report that in my current Planescape Pathfinder game, a potential sex scene did not come to fruition.

Darn Paladins with vows of chastity.

They kept the chastity idea in Pathfinder?  I don't recall seeing that survive in 3.0.

Quote from: flyerfan1991;634441They kept the chastity idea in Pathfinder?  I don't recall seeing that survive in 3.0.

It may just be a monk option in pathfinder; not sure.

The player was roleplaying it regardless.

Again, I don't know why this has to go any farther than "I don't want to picture you guys naked".

Everybody poops, are we going down that road next?

Quote from: mcbobbo;634467Again, I don't know why this has to go any farther than "I don't want to picture you guys naked".

Everybody poops, are we going down that road next?

So you can picture a swooping dragon pouring fire down upon a village but you can't make the jump that Jimbob is actually playing Nymphina the Cleric of Hawtness?

Quote from: Black Vulmea;634295Seriously, I have no idea what the fuck you're trying to say here.

Not to speak for the dude, but as an Aspie myself in real life I do not so much as like being touched and I am still uncertain what response people want from me when they spin their latest tale of sexual conquest. I have heard people say something to the effect of "sex is a natural function but so it going to the toilet and I don't want to hear about that either." I am not quite that extreme (equating procreation with excretion), but I understand how some people are. The world is an awful place and many people just want to get the job done and avoid all the squishy distractions.

In my own review of Book of Erotic Fantasy I remarked some people might be "sex positive" but in the aggregate the world is not a sex positive place. I stand by that assessment. Often not talking about sex is just one of those comprises we have to make to get through a day with as little misery as possible.

C'est la vie.

Goddamn, and people wonder why our hobby has a rep of being home to creepers.

(http://i55.photobucket.com/albums/g141/rajzwaibel/weird_zps6f948855.jpg)
(http://i55.photobucket.com/albums/g141/rajzwaibel/weird1_zps91414831.jpg)

Sacrosanct, I can't read any of the text in those images.

Bah, it's 4x the size that it's showing, and photobucket won't allow it to be any bigger, I guess

I'm trying to figure it out


OK, I had to do it as 2 separate files.

Quote from: mcbobbo;634467Again, I don't know why this has to go any farther than "I don't want to picture you guys naked".

Everybody poops, are we going down that road next?

Thank you for confirming my impression of you as the stupidest fucking poster on this forum. Geebus bleeding crisco, you manage to make jibbajabba and Ghost Whistler look like gawddamned Rhodes scholars.

No, mcdumbass, I don't picture the players naked - hell, I don't even imagine their characters naked, because (a) as others have already noted, roleplaying sexual situations that arise in-game doesn't mean roleplaying the actual sexual acts and (b) I'm not a fucking stunted moron.

And yes, mcdumbass, everyone poops, but pooping isn't a big part of how we build relationships with others wheres courtship and seduction can be.

Now, aren't you due to go crawl back in your hole and sulk for another three months?

Quote from: GRIM;634497So you can picture a swooping dragon pouring fire down upon a village but you can't make the jump that Jimbob is actually playing Nymphina the Cleric of Hawtness?

There's a gap between 'can' and 'want to'.

Quote from: Black Vulmea;634592Thank you for confirming my impression of you as the stupidest fucking poster on this forum.

Oh joy, BV deigned to notice me.  Oh happy day!

Quote from: Black Vulmea;634592Geebus bleeding crisco, you manage to make jibbajabba and Ghost Whistler look like gawddamned Rhodes scholars.

Which makes you, what, exactly?  Here's a clue - having a big dick and BEING a big dick aren't equivalent.

Quote from: Black Vulmea;634592No, mcdumbass, I don't picture the players naked - hell, I don't even imagine their characters naked, because (a) as others have already noted, roleplaying sexual situations that arise in-game doesn't mean roleplaying the actual sexual acts and (b) I'm not a fucking stunted moron..

...and your imagination is probably as stunted as are your social skills.  But you continue to think the problem is me.  See if anyone cares.

Quote from: Black Vulmea;634592And yes, mcdumbass, everyone poops, but pooping isn't a big part of how we build relationships with others wheres courtship and seduction can be.

You can't imagine constipation being an issue for the adventurer?  Or the premise of swallowing an item to pass it later, perhaps before capture?  Biological functions are a big part of normal life for every single living thing.  To a frequency much, much, much greater than that of actual sex.  But we still don't discuss it.

Oh wait, I forgot, you're one of those children who cannot think through his own sentences before he starts slapping his dick all over the screen.

Quote from: Black Vulmea;634592Now, aren't you due to go crawl back in your hole and sulk for another three months?

lol - I had no idea you were keeping track.  How cute!

This presumably should follow regular social rules.  

Sex comes up pretty regularly in fiction - even in PG films and network television.  On the other hand, it's also quite normal for there to be fiction with no mention of sex.  

Likewise, there are many friends who are comfortable discussing the topic of sex, if not in graphic detail, and sometimes even then.  (It seems more common among women than men or mixed groups, in my observation, but that's not an absolute rule.)  On the other hand, I don't see anything wrong with friends who never talk about sex.

Quote from: jhkim;634619This presumably should follow regular social rules.  

Sex comes up pretty regularly in fiction - even in PG films and network television.  On the other hand, it's also quite normal for there to be fiction with no mention of sex.  

Likewise, there are many friends who are comfortable discussing the topic of sex, if not in graphic detail, and sometimes even then.  (It seems more common among women than men or mixed groups, in my observation, but that's not an absolute rule.)  On the other hand, I don't see anything wrong with friends who never talk about sex.

I might be stating the obvious but sex, even graphic sex is much more common n "collective story" style role playing than more traditional rpgs particularly online. That's been my experience at least.

OK. This conversation is weird.

Sex happens in my games.
It's usually played up for (80s comedy movie-esque) laffs.
It's about as explicit as 80s sex comedies, i.e. bouncing boobs are onscreen, actual penetration is offscreen.

Quote from: Benoist;634630OK. This conversation is weird.

Word.

Quote from: Benoist;634630OK. This conversation is weird.

Genuinely, it should get a lot weirder.  I have some questions for those gamers 'more mature' than I am who deal with explicit sex in their campaigns:

1) Would your opinion on sex in games change if your mom was at the table?

2) Are your women actually women?  Do they menstruate?

3) What about pregnancy?  Is there any player agency here, in say a fantasy setting?  Or is it all 'DM fiat'?  Do your non-scientific fantasy characters even accurately know how reproduction occurs?

4) Is your culture sexually open?  Again, in a fantasy world I'd expect you need a fair amount of retooling.  Even in our modern society we don't have a world where women can be as sexually promiscuous as men.

5) What about STDs?  Did you make up charts and rules for this?  Syphilis was a pretty big deal back before penicillin.

I am genuinely asking, by the way, and I'd respect you a lot to hear you'd actually considered these changes to the game.  But in a typical fantasy world these issues aren't usually dealt with in any way.  The females are just males with different body parts, and have none of the worries that women throughout history have had to deal with prior to the advances of this century.

Consider this - in a 'mature' and sexualized game, what portion of the spells do you think ought to be devoted to sexual needs, menstruation, and pregnancy?  Before you answer, go watch all the commercials you usually ignore.  After the fifteenth feminine product or ED pill ad you may realize just how much we normal people use our magic (science) in these exact same ways.  The fact that no such spells exist in the PHB might be a good indicator that their lives are different from ours.  Now, if you put your own spells back in in equal measure, I'd like to hear about it.

Quote from: Benoist;634630OK. This conversation is weird.

It's nerds talking about sex.  What do you expect would happen?

Quote from: mcbobbo;634644Genuinely, it should get a lot weirder.  I have some questions for those gamers 'more mature' than I am who deal with explicit sex in their campaigns:

I don't consider myself anymore mature just to have different tastes, limits and goals when I play.

Quote1) Would your opinion on sex in games change if your mom was at the table?

Probably, but my opinion about several things would change if my mother were playing.

Quote2) Are your women actually women?  Do they menstruate?

If you mean female characters, yes, they do, Some have gotten pregnant. If you mean players then also yes, we have a few women playing. Some of them play male characters though.

Quote3) What about pregnancy?  Is there any player agency here, in say a fantasy setting?  Or is it all 'DM fiat'?  Do your non-scientific fantasy characters even accurately know how reproduction occurs?

Depends on the setting and tone of the game. In our "gritter" games pregnancy is a risk if a charactwre in engages in unprotected sex. In more cinematic games its more of a player choice or a collaboration between the gm and player.

Quote4) Is your culture sexually open?

Depends on the setting.

Quote5) What about STDs?  Did you make up charts and rules for this?  Syphilis was a pretty big deal back before penicillin.

Depends on the setting. No charts though. Depends on the character's actions. Generally, unless its dramatic or appropriate it something assumed avoided if the character is taking precautions or that can be taken care of by in setting means (medical technology, magic, etc). Like common illness or wound infection in some systems.

QuoteI am genuinely asking, by the way, and I'd respect you a lot to hear you'd actually considered these changes to the game.

I hope my answers were satisfactory. To tell the truth I play much sci fi and modern (ish) games than straight fantasy so my perspective is different.

QuoteBut in a typical fantasy world these issues aren't usually dealt with in any way.  The females are just males with different body parts, and have none of the worries that women throughout history have had to deal with prior to the advances of this century.

Consider this - in a 'mature' and sexualized game, what portion of the spells do you think ought to be devoted to sexual needs, menstruation, and pregnancy?  Before you answer, go watch all the commercials you usually ignore.  After the fifteenth feminine product or ED pill ad you may realize just how much we normal people use our magic (science) in these exact same ways.  The fact that no such spells exist in the PHB might be a good indicator that their lives are different from ours.  Now, if you put your own spells back in in equal measure, I'd like to hear about it.

Generally, I assume those spells, magical devices, etc exist but they just aren't detailed because they aren't important to most adventuring sorts (IOW ways to kill stuff). IIRC, even in the Book of Erotic Fantasy much of the material mentioned was along the lines of being useful for adventure than general utility.

 I'd imagine most fantasy worlds have hedge magic contraception, treatments for STDs, etc (or things like laxatives and baldness cures, for that matter). Though there's no reason STDs HAVE to exist in a fantasy setting but I think it could lead to some changes in their outlook so I generally assume they do in some form or another.

Quote from: mcbobbo;6346441) Would your opinion on sex in games change if your mom was at the table?

2) Are your women actually women?  Do they menstruate?

3) What about pregnancy?  Is there any player agency here, in say a fantasy setting?  Or is it all 'DM fiat'?  Do your non-scientific fantasy characters even accurately know how reproduction occurs?

4) Is your culture sexually open?  Again, in a fantasy world I'd expect you need a fair amount of retooling.  Even in our modern society we don't have a world where women can be as sexually promiscuous as men.

5) What about STDs?  Did you make up charts and rules for this?  Syphilis was a pretty big deal back before penicillin.

I am genuinely asking, by the way, and I'd respect you a lot to hear you'd actually considered these changes to the game.  But in a typical fantasy world these issues aren't usually dealt with in any way.

I don't think I can accurately answer these since they differ wildly from one campaign to another.  I guess I'll answer my Vinland campaign since it's one that I mentioned earlier in the thread.  

1) No, I don't think so.  My mother swears like sailor and is fine talking about her favorite Almodovar films, for example, and like I said there's never anything explicit.  I would change it if there were kids present.  

2) Yes.

3) Characters certainly know that pregnancy results from sex - that's been true since ancient times.  I'm not sure what you mean by "player agency", but yes, it's been handled by GM fiat.  (I did once play a Slayer in a Buffy RPG campaign who had a baby with her same-sex partner via spell, so I suppose that counts as agency.)  

4) The Vinlanders weren't at all prudish or puritanical, but they also weren't particularly enlightened.  Both women and men PCs had marriages arranged for them by their families - that's how marriage worked.  On the other hand, they didn't generally make a big deal of affairs (a bit like the French).  

5) I've never used rules for disease in general, so no, I haven't used it for STDs.  I also have always avoided having PCs die from infection or other complications of injury.  Although sometimes set in historical periods, my games are generally about heroic fiction rather than everyday reality.

Quote from: mcbobbo;6346442) Are your women actually women?  Do they menstruate?

Why the fuck is that even a question?

I give up on this place sometimes.

Quote from: mcbobbo;634644Genuinely, it should get a lot weirder.  I have some questions for those gamers 'more mature' than I am who deal with explicit sex in their campaigns:

1) Would your opinion on sex in games change if your mom was at the table?

2) Are your women actually women?  Do they menstruate?

3) What about pregnancy?  Is there any player agency here, in say a fantasy setting?  Or is it all 'DM fiat'?  Do your non-scientific fantasy characters even accurately know how reproduction occurs?

4) Is your culture sexually open?  Again, in a fantasy world I'd expect you need a fair amount of retooling.  Even in our modern society we don't have a world where women can be as sexually promiscuous as men.

5) What about STDs?  Did you make up charts and rules for this?  Syphilis was a pretty big deal back before penicillin.

I am genuinely asking, by the way, and I'd respect you a lot to hear you'd actually considered these changes to the game.  But in a typical fantasy world these issues aren't usually dealt with in any way.  The females are just males with different body parts, and have none of the worries that women throughout history have had to deal with prior to the advances of this century.

Consider this - in a 'mature' and sexualized game, what portion of the spells do you think ought to be devoted to sexual needs, menstruation, and pregnancy?  Before you answer, go watch all the commercials you usually ignore.  After the fifteenth feminine product or ED pill ad you may realize just how much we normal people use our magic (science) in these exact same ways.  The fact that no such spells exist in the PHB might be a good indicator that their lives are different from ours.  Now, if you put your own spells back in in equal measure, I'd like to hear about it.

I don't consider the sex in my game to be explicit, or even a considerable portion of the game, but I'll bite:

1) A lot of things would be different if my mom was at the table. Players smoking pot, descriptions of graphic violence, greed motivated murder, etc. Sex doesn't come up as nearly as often as other potentially controversial things that come up in play.

2) Yes. In theory yes, but it hasn't ever come up in play. Although I would use it as fodder for cheap comedy if it occurred to me.

3) I guess it could happen, although I'd imagine all the violence that adventuring PCs experience would likely induce a miscarriage by the time nine months have rolled by? If PCs were actively trying to impregnate or get pregnant I'd look at Pendragon or something for guidelines.

Since the sexual activity in my game is offscreen, so is the methods of birth control, so the possibility of pregnancy could be easily handwaved.

But if female PC ended unintentionally up in a family way, they could visit a witch or apothecary to terminate the pregnancy if they so desired.

4. Depends on the region in question, but generally, yes.

5. I don't worry about PCs contracting sepsis or tuberculosis in general either. I can see it coming up if PC gets it on with a NPC that is a secret priest of the disease god or some other corner case.

My games are generally pulp comic book fantasy, so generally the only consequences of getting laid is someone either falling in love with you or someone getting mad at you. Unless you sleep with a secret monster or something.

We extrapolated rules from FATAL, the RPG netbook of sex, and several OGL sources to fine tune our house rules regarding sex. Sex is as intricate as combat with critical and fumble tables, chance for pregnancy, menstruation, STDs, erectile dysfunction, good/bad performance, and satisfaction (measured in "humping points").

Sexual encounters are broken up into "moments" which comprise 6 seconds of "action". Various maneuvers are detailed, with players in full tactical control of their characters faculties or facilities as the case may be.

Additional rules include inebriation from various substances, bondage and sadism effects, effects of grooming  and accoutrements on appearance, and of course dancing. Which can be surprisingly sexual (and can draw sexual encounters out, so I caution against overuse...).

XP can be earned in session via sexual encounters for a myriad number of things, one of which I can't get into too much detail about, but involves pudding. Flavors generally have no impact on XP award however.

So, in summary, sex comes up as often as combat, as I interject opportunities for both encounters in my games with the equal... rigor.

If you'll excuse me, my Sunday game preparations are not complete, and this inappropriate pornographic video can't watch itself. Nor can my director's cut of Gladiator. Good evening.

1) Would your opinion on sex in games change if your mom was at the table?

No. Totally not.

2) Are your women actually women?  Do they menstruate?

That last question? That is a really weird question to ask without context like this.

But if you must know, sometimes women are played by women yes, and sometimes some women play guys, and sometimes guys play women, and sometimes guys and girls play weirder beings too. Just for the record, I had a 100% female group but for me, the DM, until about .. 2007 or so. And some of these played women who were lesbians, actually. And there was no big deal made out of spending the night with someone or having relationships in the game and so on. It just happens. No big deal, though it's cool because it adds another layer of verisimilitude to the game, whether your character is searching for a one-night-stand or a long term relationship in the game. It's all cool with me. And if it doesn't happen at all and you're not interested in that kind of developments, that's cool with me too.

3) What about pregnancy?  Is there any player agency here, in say a fantasy setting?  Or is it all 'DM fiat'?  Do your non-scientific fantasy characters even accurately know how reproduction occurs?

That hasn't come up in my games. How often does it show up in yours? Because the length at which you went about that question... I don't know. It's bizarre. Pregnancy is nature, you know? It happens. Or not. It's not icky or anything. Unless you're a guy standing before your wife while she pushes. You might want to brace yourself.

4) Is your culture sexually open?  Again, in a fantasy world I'd expect you need a fair amount of retooling.  Even in our modern society we don't have a world where women can be as sexually promiscuous as men.

I never thought about it that way to be honest. It's just like Lankhmar stories but in a D&D role playing context, you know? Sometimes characters fall in love. Or they find a one night stand during a stay at an inn. It just happens.

5) What about STDs?  Did you make up charts and rules for this?  Syphilis was a pretty big deal back before penicillin.

No, I didn't make charts for this.

You guys are all really fucking weird        :hmm:

I'm just flabbergasted by this conversation. I was talking about it with my wife and the pregnancy thing came up in particular. She was like "if I came up to you between sessions and said it would be cool if my character got pregnant out of this what would you say?" and I was like "cool! Character development!" which totally did not surprise her, and then "if I asked you to roll for the probability would you?" I was like "Sure, that'd be cool with me".

I'm not seeing what the big deal is about all this AT ALL. Perhaps because I'm French. IDK.

Quote from: trechriron;634659We extrapolated rules from FATAL, the RPG netbook of sex, and several OGL sources to fine tune our house rules regarding sex. Sex is as intricate as combat with critical and fumble tables, chance for pregnancy, menstruation, STDs, erectile dysfunction, good/bad performance, and satisfaction (measured in "humping points").

Sexual encounters are broken up into "moments" which comprise 6 seconds of "action". Various maneuvers are detailed, with players in full tactical control of their characters faculties or facilities as the case may be.

Additional rules include inebriation from various substances, bondage and sadism effects, effects of grooming  and accoutrements on appearance, and of course dancing. Which can be surprisingly sexual (and can draw sexual encounters out, so I caution against overuse...).

XP can be earned in session via sexual encounters for a myriad number of things, one of which I can't get into too much detail about, but involves pudding. Flavors generally have no impact on XP award however.

So, in summary, sex comes up as often as combat, as I interject opportunities for both encounters in my games with the equal... rigor.

If you'll excuse me, my Sunday game preparations are not complete, and this inappropriate pornographic video can't watch itself. Nor can my director's cut of Gladiator. Good evening.

You win this fucking trainwreck. Congratulations. :)

Quote from: One Horse Town;633840I banged a copy of Unearthed Arcana once.

It would seem that some people were more excited by Gygax's addition of 'comeliness' to AD&D than others...

Quote from: mcbobbo;6346441) Would your opinion on sex in games change if your mom was at the table?

No, but I'd be looking for the nearest blunt object, so roleplaying wouldn't be the first thing on my mind.

Quote2) Are your women actually women?  Do they menstruate?

Not at the game table.

Quote3) What about pregnancy?  Is there any player agency here, in say a fantasy setting?  Or is it all 'DM fiat'?  Do your non-scientific fantasy characters even accurately know how reproduction occurs?

Sure, they know that the fertility gods grant babies to those who pray for it.

Quote4) Is your culture sexually open?  

Depends on the game. I've never seen a reason to tie myself down to one culture.

QuoteAgain, in a fantasy world I'd expect you need a fair amount of retooling.  Even in our modern society we don't have a world where women can be as sexually promiscuous as men.

Sure they can be, and often are.

Quote5) What about STDs?  Did you make up charts and rules for this?  Syphilis was a pretty big deal back before penicillin.

I don't make up charts and rules for venerial diseases , no. If I was into that sort of "fun" I'd play FATAL.

QuoteI am genuinely asking, by the way, and I'd respect you a lot to hear you'd actually considered these changes to the game.  But in a typical fantasy world these issues aren't usually dealt with in any way.  The females are just males with different body parts, and have none of the worries that women throughout history have had to deal with prior to the advances of this century.

That totally depends on the setting and the group. I don't think you can make universal or general statements about this. OTOH, I don't penalize players for being females in a historical setting. For one, women had more freedoms than most people give them credit for these days. For another, there were always exceptions to the "rule". For the third, living in a sexist society doesn't mean that women everywhere faced daily challenges in that regard. Most women were not abused, cowed, slaves.

QuoteConsider this - in a 'mature' and sexualized game, what portion of the spells do you think ought to be devoted to sexual needs, menstruation, and pregnancy?

None, unless you want that kind of magic.  Magic can mean so many different things, have so many different flavours, that I don't accept "a subsitute for modern technology" as a default basis. I mean, imagine a Call of Cthulhu spell for dealing with one's period.

Quote from: Imperator;634023Sex, marriages, children and romantic relationships happen frequently in my games. As the PCs are usually human beings, roleplaying them properly should include the need for coupling, establishing relationships, or just having a fun romp. Anyway, we usually roleplay the seduction part, and let the rest happen off-screen once the clothes start getting in the way...

This generally has been my experience as well, at least in campaigns that have lasted for an extended time.

Romance played an important role in the last extended campaign in which I was a player. My PC was a Half-Melnibonean sorcerer (this was a RuneQuest game set in the Young Kingdoms) who fell in love with and rescued a Melnibonean maiden.  She was intended to be sacrificed by her father in order to resurrect Cran Liret (the Thief of Spells).  The relationship actually became a primary motivation for my PC's actions during the last third of the campaign (somewhat to the chagrin of the PC's half-brother).

Quote from: mcbobbo;6346441) Would your opinion on sex in games change if your mom was at the table?

About as much as anything else.

Quote2) Are your women actually women?  Do they menstruate?

Generally yes, although it's only very seldom come up (bypassed a spell requirement for human blood) and there are exceptions.  Some non-humans probably shouldn't, and futuristic settings with reliable contraception may make it optional (even modern-day levels of technology can, though the side effects and lack of reliability prevent it from getting through the FDA).

Quote3) What about pregnancy?  Is there any player agency here, in say a fantasy setting?  Or is it all 'DM fiat'?

I generally assume that characters are taking reasonable precautions unless they say otherwise (including men, since the random lovechild is a pretty standard trope and really trite to use without player permission).  Conversely, if the player wants to work on their family line, it'll normally work.

QuoteDo your non-scientific fantasy characters even accurately know how reproduction occurs?

In the same way they might understand how combat works, even if they don't necessarily understand how to forge a sword.  Characters in-setting may have unusual superstitions or frameworks -- actual sperm-egg mechanics require more knowledge than 'water the seed' -- but I'd generally expect any adult in a typical setting to at least have realized a pattern in livestock or housepets.

If there are unusual aspects to a setting (babies are actually delivered by stork), I'd generally assume they need to be stated to the players if they became relevant.

Quote4) Is your culture sexually open?  Again, in a fantasy world I'd expect you need a fair amount of retooling.  Even in our modern society we don't have a world where women can be as sexually promiscuous as men.

Culture depends on setting -- there are a good many settings where it makes sense for the cultures to be sexually closed, or for homosexuality to be outlawed, or for standard choices to be restricted and bizarre matters to be common.  For most RPGs, however, the characters transcend the limits of culture : adventure parties in Dungeons and Dragons, Shadowrunners in Shadowrun, Exalts and Heroic Mortals in Exalted, all exist at levels of society where they are expected to neither know nor care about the conventional taboos.

I'll admit a weakness to taking real-life taboos -- my Realm uses a genderflipped version of Roman preferences, for example.

Quote5) What about STDs?  Did you make up charts and rules for this?  Syphilis was a pretty big deal back before penicillin.

I generally assume that players take appropriate precautions unless they state otherwise, the same as they probably don't need to make a roll to avoid bedbugs or a bad case of e coli.

QuoteConsider this - in a 'mature' and sexualized game, what portion of the spells do you think ought to be devoted to sexual needs, menstruation, and pregnancy?

I'd generally not get into the brand-v-brand issues -- the infamous polearm table from Unearthed Arcana has forever turned me away from multiple items with identical stats.  If you have a setting that's going to describe prices of homes and food items and minor baubles or have noncombat spells (and isn't a specifically non-sexual setting), listing a few forms of contraception and pleasurable matters wouldn't be out of place.

  It also depends very heavily on the game's magic rules.  I would not want to use any Don't Rest Your Head magic as a contraceptive.  Actual sorcery for sex is probably overkill in Exalted, unless you need a palace to go with your orgy, but a thaumaturgy ritual might well make sense (although I might wave the willpower cost, to avoid encouraging stunts).  Most D&D versions make spell slots too valuable, but the True20 ruleset probably should have bedroom magic.

1) Would your opinion on sex in games change if your mom was at the table?

No.

2) Are your women actually women?  Do they menstruate?

Depends on the game and whether it would come up. It did come up in a post-apocalyptic survival game (immediately post-apocalyptic). Like most things it really only comes up if relevant and dependent on game.

3) What about pregnancy?  Is there any player agency here, in say a fantasy setting?  Or is it all 'DM fiat'?  Do your non-scientific fantasy characters even accurately know how reproduction occurs?

While people had some funny ideas about how babies were made the connection between fucking and babies was known longer than most people think. Even in a non-scientific fantasy setting magic fulfills many of the roles science and technology does so I don't assume ignorance or mystical views on childbirth unless appropriate. Pregnancy does turn up reasonably often.

4) Is your culture sexually open?  Again, in a fantasy world I'd expect you need a fair amount of retooling.  Even in our modern society we don't have a world where women can be as sexually promiscuous as men.

I suggest you read Chaucer. Also Shakespeare. Again see 'magic as technology'.

5) What about STDs?  Did you make up charts and rules for this?  Syphilis was a pretty big deal back before penicillin.

If its relevant, it turns up. More likely to turn up in WHFRP or a setting without 'cure disease' than elsewhere.

The point you make about commercials, products, obsession and use of technology was one of the subtexts in Nymphology.

Quote from: Black Vulmea;634686You win this fucking trainwreck. Congratulations. :)

Thank you good sir! Now I just need to polish up the PDF and get it on this thread. You know, for posterity.

Why do you care what people do in their games?
Why do you care that some games and books contain this sort of material?

Quote from: GRIM;634883Why do you care what people do in their games?

Other people having fun is horribly offensive.

Quote from: GrumpyReviews;634920Other people having fun is horribly offensive.

Apparently.

JG

Characters have had sex in the RPGs I've played throughout my life.  It's a little hard to imagine how it could be otherwise, unless I was sticking strictly to games about nonhumans or grimdark wh40k campaigns or something.  It was all very juvenile when I was a juvenile, no regrets there.  As an adult, some players can be a little skeezy time to time, but I don't much care as long as they're not ruining someone's good time.

Mostly it's pretty normal.  People want to explore relationships, hook up, marry up, whatever.  Even as a kid, I don't think I ever played out sex, the expectation has been pretty steady over the years that once you get past fooling around, it goes off screen.  Or in private messages if the players roll that way.

It likely helps that I do all my gaming these days over IRC.  Easier to divorce myself from awareness of who's doing the talking, and imagine voice tone/body language that's appropriate to what their character is saying in text.  Easier to focus on Nymphina when Jimbob isn't sitting next to me.

Quote from: GRIM;634883Why do you care what people do in their games?
Why do you care that some games and books contain this sort of material?

Personally, I like culture, even when different from my own, and that includes your game table.  I just like it, like to learn about it, etc.

For example, in my games all the characters have been effectively genderless, aside from their appearance and behavior, and before this conversation I hadn't really thought much about it.

Comes up more often in freeform or online tabletop games where everyone has a stronger freeform background and are generally more comfortable with raunchy shit.  Around the table, it happens on occasion but is largely glossed over.

Quote from: mcbobbo;635157Personally, I like culture, even when different from my own, and that includes your game table.  I just like it, like to learn about it, etc.

Giving a fuck about what other people do at their tables is half the reason RPG players fight so much.  It's a bad habit, you should stop it.

Quote from: mcbobbo;635157I just like it, like to learn about it, etc.

Saying "I was just talking" or "I was just asking" is 99 times out of a 100, a fucking lie. "Just talking" rarely happens is real life. Mostly what people do is go fishing for excuses to kick the shit out of each other and when it doesn't work or is too much work, then and only then do people play the lame "I was just talking" bullshit line.

I own a Kindle, which is no more or less immoral than possessing a sex life. But I don't leave the Kindle where someone can easily steal it. Likewise, I do not run my personal life (or game) through a committee for approval.

High fences often makes for good neighbors.

Quote from: GrumpyReviews;635302Saying "I was just talking" or "I was just asking" is 99 times out of a 100, a fucking lie. "Just talking" rarely happens is real life. Mostly what people do is go fishing for excuses to kick the shit out of each other and when it doesn't work or is too much work, then and only then do people play the lame "I was just talking" bullshit line.

I own a Kindle, which is no more or less immoral than possessing a sex life. But I don't leave the Kindle where someone can easily steal it. Likewise, I do not run my personal life (or game) through a committee for approval.

High fences often makes for good neighbors.

Dude. Did you just compare owning a Kindle to having a sex life?

I ... I feel sorry for you.

When we are judged as a hobby as a whole, I'd prefer people not to think that my "fellow gamers", and by extension me as I get grouped in with them, aren't creepers who like to play games where rape is funny, or describing graphic sexual detail among neckbeards is awesome.


Maybe it's just me.

Quote from: Sacrosanct;635307When we are judged as a hobby as a whole, I'd prefer people not to think that my "fellow gamers", and by extension me as I get grouped in with them, aren't creepers who like to play games where rape is funny, or describing graphic sexual detail among neckbeards is awesome.


Maybe it's just me.

Tom of Finland impacts on people's image of The Beano how again?

Quote from: Benoist;635304Dude. Did you just compare owning a Kindle to having a sex life?

I ... I feel sorry for you.

You only have to pay that $109 once.

JG

Quote from: Sacrosanct;635307When we are judged as a hobby as a whole, I'd prefer people not to think that my "fellow gamers", and by extension me as I get grouped in with them, aren't creepers who like to play games where rape is funny, or describing graphic sexual detail among neckbeards is awesome.


Maybe it's just me.

Nope, not just you.

Of course, Tangency all by itself doesn't help out very much.

In various games, sex happens with regularity, but always 'off-screen'.  Sometimes a Conan-like barbarian shacks up with a tavern wench for the night - sometimes long-term meaningful relationships develop between characters that eventually lead to marriage (and consumation).  But that's never the focus of our games.  They're just a natural out-growth of the character development.

Quote from: This Guy;635200Giving a fuck about what other people do at their tables is half the reason RPG players fight so much.  It's a bad habit, you should stop it.

Hold that thought...

Quote from: GrumpyReviews;635302Saying "I was just talking" or "I was just asking" is 99 times out of a 100, a fucking lie. "Just talking" rarely happens is real life. Mostly what people do is go fishing for excuses to kick the shit out of each other and when it doesn't work or is too much work, then and only then do people play the lame "I was just talking" bullshit line.

Stop and think about this for a minute.  I am here to talk about games.  If I want to talk about other things, I'd go elsewhere.  Being curious about how your experiences might be different from my own is the ENTIRE FUCKING POINT of coming to a site like this one.  For me, at least.

If I wanted a forum where everyone looked and sounded exactly as I do, with no new ideas or experiences, I'd lower my dosage, whip up a bunch of sock puppets and have a grand conversation with some really intelligent people.

So I call bullshit on your bullshit.  If you didn't care about what people were doing at their tables, you wouldn't be here sharing what you do at yours.

Neither my characters nor my games deal in sex at the table.  It's something done between jobs, not during the job- and not as the job.

Quote from: Sacrosanct;635307When we are judged as a hobby as a whole, I'd prefer people not to think that my "fellow gamers", and by extension me as I get grouped in with them, aren't creepers who like to play games where rape is funny, or describing graphic sexual detail among neckbeards is awesome.


Maybe it's just me.

No, not just you.

The problem is that we are excoriated for having some standards. Usually excoriated by hypocritical lawncrappers.

Quote from: Bradford C. Walker;635579Neither my characters nor my games deal in sex at the table.  It's something done between jobs, not during the job- and not as the job.

Rule #1: Never change the deal.
Rule #2: No names.
Rule #3: Never open the package.

Quote from: jeff37923;635595No, not just you.

The problem is that we are excoriated for having some standards. Usually excoriated by hypocritical lawncrappers.

The problem is when someone tries to apply the same standards to Texas Chainsaw Massacre or Anal Adventures of Adelade as they do to The Smurfs.

All three are films, different audiences, different goals.

Gaming is not a monolith and even if it were, some people would really need to touch it.

Quote from: GRIM;635612Gaming is not a monolith and even if it were, some people would really need to touch it.

I was in agreement with you up to this sentence.

What are you suggesting here? That if someone finds something disagreeable, that it should be shoved in their face?

I ask because what I am talking about is the public play of games that may turn people away from the hobby or severely curtail their interest in the hobby. FATAL and Poison'd being played in public and the posted about online really don't help to attract new Players - they instead have made those games into the laughingstock. If people want to play them in private, that is fine - I just don't want them held up as representative of the majority of the hobby.

Quote from: jeff37923;635648I was in agreement with you up to this sentence.

What are you suggesting here? That if someone finds something disagreeable, that it should be shoved in their face?

I ask because what I am talking about is the public play of games that may turn people away from the hobby or severely curtail their interest in the hobby. FATAL and Poison'd being played in public and the posted about online really don't help to attract new Players - they instead have made those games into the laughingstock. If people want to play them in private, that is fine - I just don't want them held up as representative of the majority of the hobby.

Touch the monolith is an oblique 2001 reference.

Again, what does RanXerox or Tom of Finland or Peter Pank have to do with The Beano or Teen Titans?

Fuck all other than it shares a medium. One item in that medium making someone uncomfortable doesn't damn the whole medium.

What does Manhunt or Soldier of Fortune or Grand Theft Auto have to do with Bejewelled or Farmville?

Fuck all other than it shares a medium. One item in that medium making someone uncomfortable doesn't damn the whole medium.

So what does Poison'd or Maid or even FATAL have to do with D&D or RuneQuest?

Again, fuck all.

If we can understand this in these other media what's the thing blocking comprehension of it when it comes to RPGs?

Quote from: GRIM;635655Touch the monolith is an oblique 2001 reference.

Again, what does RanXerox or Tom of Finland or Peter Pank have to do with The Beano or Teen Titans?

Fuck all other than it shares a medium. One item in that medium making someone uncomfortable doesn't damn the whole medium.

What does Manhunt or Soldier of Fortune or Grand Theft Auto have to do with Bejewelled or Farmville?

Fuck all other than it shares a medium. One item in that medium making someone uncomfortable doesn't damn the whole medium.

So what does Poison'd or Maid or even FATAL have to do with D&D or RuneQuest?

Again, fuck all.

If we can understand this in these other media what's the thing blocking comprehension of it when it comes to RPGs?

Except that while they may all be RPGs, they are not representative of all RPGs. Certainly not representative of the tastes of a majority of RPG Players.

Quote from: jeff37923;635656Except that while they may all be RPGs, they are not representative of all RPGs. Certainly not representative of the tastes of a majority of RPG Players.

And this is no different to all these other media.

Quote from: GRIM;635659And this is no different to all these other media.

But these media that you keep referring to will not bring about an evolutionary wellspring like you suggest by your statement of "touch the monolith".

I never read RanXerox or Tom of Finland or Peter Pank or The Beano or Teen Titans. I never played Manhunt or Soldier of Fortune or Grand Theft Auto or Bejewelled or Farmville. I have never played Poison'd or Maid or even FATAL either. I have no interest. I do not see how my life will be enriched by me broadening my mind with their presence.

Forcing me to read the above or play the above will not help me evolve. Experiencing crap that does not interest me is only useful if I can then better recognize crap that does not interest me later on and thus avoid it.

Quote from: jeff37923;635663Forcing me to read the above or play the above will not help me evolve. Experiencing crap that does not interest me is only useful if I can then better recognize crap that does not interest me later on and thus avoid it.

I'm not suggesting you be forced. I'm suggesting you evolve your viewpoint to understand that there is room for all these things and the existence of one need have no impact whatsoever on the other.

"Are you coming over to play Bridge tonight Marjory?"
"Oh, no, I couldn't possibly. I saw some young gentlemen playing 'Booby Match' and I don't think I want to associate with card games after that."

THIS NEVER HAPPENS.

So why, please, please, please explain, would you think its different for our medium?

Coming in late I think sex in games I've run/played in has pretty well mirrored the age of the participants.

Early teens it was avoided as a weird/uncomfortable topic.

Late teens it was cool and awesome and filled with teenage macho bullshit so that everyone KNEW HOW MUCH SEX YOU WERE HAVING.

Early twenties was "We are so mature now and sex is no big deal so we'll include it casually in our games (aren't we cool?)."

Now is "Sex?... Oh yeah... I had forgotten about that"

:D

Quote from: GRIM;635665I'm not suggesting you be forced. I'm suggesting you evolve your viewpoint to understand that there is room for all these things and the existence of one need have no impact whatsoever on the other.

"Are you coming over to play Bridge tonight Marjory?"
"Oh, no, I couldn't possibly. I saw some young gentlemen playing 'Booby Match' and I don't think I want to associate with card games after that."

THIS NEVER HAPPENS.

So why, please, please, please explain, would you think its different for our medium?

Actually, it does happen with RPGs.

It is 2013, I still have to tell people that D&D does not involve Satanism at the game table nor do we dress up as our characters.

For myself, I have no interest in playing Maid or Poison'd or FATAL. I do not care if people want to play them in private. I do care if games of wink-wink nudge-nudge paedophilia or neck-raped cabin boys or a game that centers around perversion for no apparent reason other than because it is there in public and people declare them as being the mainstream of gaming because it drives away not only new potential Players but experienced long term Players as well. Most people do not want that shit around their game tables. Deal with it.

And next time you want to bring someone over to your point of view, do not be so insulting as to suggest that their opinion is "unevolved" compared to yours.

Quote from: jeff37923;635667Actually, it does happen with RPGs.

It is 2013, I still have to tell people that D&D does not involve Satanism at the game table nor do we dress up as our characters.

That had nothing to do with the games themselves and everything to do with an external panic.

Quote from: jeff37923;635667For myself, I have no interest in playing Maid or Poison'd or FATAL. I do not care if people want to play them in private. I do care if games of wink-wink nudge-nudge paedophilia or neck-raped cabin boys or a game that centers around perversion for no apparent reason other than because it is there in public and people declare them as being the mainstream of gaming because it drives away not only new potential Players but experienced long term Players as well. Most people do not want that shit around their game tables. Deal with it.

Bully for you. Other people do and what they do really has no discernible effect on you and your table. If someone doesn't like Hostel it doesn't mean they give up on all cinema forever.

Quote from: jeff37923;635667And next time you want to bring someone over to your point of view, do not be so insulting as to suggest that their opinion is "unevolved" compared to yours.

I can't think of a nice way to phrase it. To me (and others) it seems a really peculiar POV to hold.

I'm afraid you just aren't getting it Grim.  This is a small hobby.  A community rather.  Yes, it very much impacts every single one of us when you have players who enjoy FATAL, Maid, etc.  Especially when those players see no issue with it being played right there in "the open" like it's no big deal.

Now, I imagine you might be thinking, "I shouldn't have to feel ashamed for playing the game I like in public.", and my answer to that is, "When that game involves sexual assault and seduction of minors, you're goddamn right you should feel ashamed at the very least."

I am sooooooooo fucking tired of people looking at me like I'm some sort of creeper when they find out I'm a gamer because all they've heard is the controversy around games like the above.  And make no mistake, it's the controversial games that get all the publicity, just like everything else.

So yeah, it is my best interests as a gamer, and it does affect me directly as a gamer, when games like those are enjoyed publicly.  I have always supported your right to create whatever product you want as long as it's legal, but don't for one minute act like you're not having a negative impact to the rest of us around you.

Wait, non gamers even know FATAL (or Poison'd for that matter) exist?

Quote from: Nexus;635691Wait, non gamers even know FATAL (or Poison'd for that matter) exist?

http://www.somethingawful.com/d/dungeons-and-dragons/fatal-worst-rpg.php

Quote from: GRIM;635669I can't think of a nice way to phrase it. To me (and others) it seems a really peculiar POV to hold.

To me this seems like a really peculiar thread. It's not hard, whatever floats the boat at your table, now let's get back to talking about gaming.

Nota bene, I'm starting to suspect that shifty character Silva of being a troll, given that he has a grand total of two posts in this thread, the OP and "lol :D", to say nothing of his shared narrative contributions.

Quote from: Piestrio;635693http://www.somethingawful.com/d/dungeons-and-dragons/fatal-worst-rpg.php

And to be totally fair, that was just an example.  The logic behind my argument also applies to things not nearly as bad, like horrible sexist cheesecake art on the cover on an RPG.  Even if a non-gamer doesn't know about FATAL, they see those covers and associate all those horrible stereotypes about nerds with it.

So yeah, while I don't play FATAL, or Maid, or have a copy of The Book of Erotic Fantasy, I am most certainly impacted by those players who do because I'm lumped in with them by the rest of the free world.

Seriously, if gamers want to try to get out of this stereotype that they're a bunch of creepy neckbeards who masturbate over cover art, stop playing/putting out material that just reinforces that.  You might have the right to do so, but don't pretend like your actions aren't hurting everyone else

Quote from: mcbobbo;635396Stop and think about this for a minute.  I am here to talk about games.  If I want to talk about other things, I'd go elsewhere.  Being curious about how your experiences might be different from my own is the ENTIRE FUCKING POINT of coming to a site like this one.  For me, at least.

If I wanted a forum where everyone looked and sounded exactly as I do, with no new ideas or experiences, I'd lower my dosage, whip up a bunch of sock puppets and have a grand conversation with some really intelligent people.

So I call bullshit on your bullshit.  If you didn't care about what people were doing at their tables, you wouldn't be here sharing what you do at yours.

Sorry, but I don't - and actually, come to think of it, I'm not sorry at all, but rather pleased about it, so we can dispense with that little linguistic tic.  I'm happy to share what I like, but what other people do has zero bearing on that.  This site is more of a reminder of "There but for the grace of God" than a desire to learn what other people are doing.

Of course, that could also be considered caring, in the sense that the only way to not care is a sense of total, crippling apathy, so I guess you got me!  You still give too much a shit about what other people are doing, though.

I like evocative art, and much of that includes 'cheesecake'.  I won't buy a book because of the cover art, but I won't refuse to purchase it either.  But I figure even if I have a book featuring scantily clad men or women (or both) that's unlikely to have much of a negative impact on the hobby because I'm not a creepy neckbeard.  

And while a game like MAID might seem to encourage seducing underage ghosts (if I understand correctly), those same actions are possible in D&D.  The nature of an RPG is that people can use it any way they want.  

Yes, it might make the hobby look bad when the 'worst elements' are seen.  But if you're not a member of the 'worst elements' it should have minimal impact on your recruiting.  You say, 'my games aren't like that'.  And if you can describe your games in a compelling manner, you have a new convert.  Bully for you.  

But seriously, if the fact that people play other games in a relatively small 'niche hobby' is making things harder for you, that's probably more of a reflection on you or the way you're recruiting than on those games.  The fact that some people are into BDSM doesn't impact my enjoyment of 'mainstream' sex.  The fact that people enjoy 'deviant' RPG games doesn't impact my enjoyment of 'mainstream' RPGs.  It's all about finding a partner/partners that are into the same thing you are.

This hobby's "worst elements" aren't teenage guys who like porn, I'll say that much.

Quote from: jeff37923;635667It is 2013, I still have to tell people that D&D does not involve Satanism.

Unless said people live in the Ozarks or the remote areas of the deep South, I very much doubt this is true. The Satanic Panic was nearly 30 years ago, and D&D was just one thing that got targeted along side a whole bunch of things. No reasonable person believes this anymore. Even blatantly Satanic imagery displaying Heavy Metal music doesn't really even bear the stigma anymore, much less D&D.

The rest of the world got over the Satanic Panic along time ago. It's about time gamers did. The self-loathing is sickening.

Quote from: Doctor Jest;635714Unless said people live in the Ozarks or the remote areas of the deep South, I very much doubt this is true. The Satanic Panic was nearly 30 years ago, and D&D was just one thing that got targeted along side a whole bunch of things. No reasonable person believes this anymore. Even blatantly Satanic imagery displaying Heavy Metal music doesn't really even bear the stigma anymore, much less D&D.

The rest of the world got over the Satanic Panic along time ago. It's about time gamers did. The self-loathing is sickening.

I grew up in a Roman Catholic family.  Dude, it's still there.  Maybe they aren't as up in arms about it because they've got the (trademark) evil gays, liberals, and Muslims to worry about, but that attitude is still there.

Quote from: Doctor Jest;635714Unless said people live in the Ozarks or the remote areas of the deep South, I very much doubt this is true. The Satanic Panic was nearly 30 years ago, and D&D was just one thing that got targeted along side a whole bunch of things. No reasonable person believes this anymore. Even blatantly Satanic imagery displaying Heavy Metal music doesn't really even bear the stigma anymore, much less D&D.

Oh yeah, I believe even Alice Cooper is a born again christian these days, how about that eh, and still on the road fair play to him.

Doesn't make this any less of a troll thread mind you.

Quote from: mcbobbo;635396If you didn't care about what people were doing at their tables, you wouldn't be here sharing what you do at yours.

People come here to (verbally over the internet) kick each other in the face, or at least that is a large part of why people come here.

Sex is easily exploited and abused and if people have the opportunity they will always do just that, in the same way people will always steal an unattended Kindle. Going out of your way to avoid being exploited and ripped off is not odd behavior, and the people who want to exploit and abuse others will have to get over their disappointment in not being able to (verbally over the internet) kick people in the face.

Quote from: GRIM;635669That had nothing to do with the games themselves and everything to do with an external panic.

That is the most fucking retarded defense I have heard yet. The result was the same, doesn't matter if it was internal or external.

Quote from: GRIM;635669Bully for you. Other people do and what they do really has no discernible effect on you and your table. If someone doesn't like Hostel it doesn't mean they give up on all cinema forever.

I'm talking about the public play of tabletop RPGs. Why the fuck do you keep talking about cinema? They are two different mediums of entertainment that are experienced differently.

How about this as a test for you. Take Poison'd, or Maid, or FATAL and run it in a public venue - like a convention or FLGS. Then get back to me about what the reactions from people observing were. Did those games make the observers want to try RPGs or did they get discouraged by the subject matter?

Quote from: GRIM;635669I can't think of a nice way to phrase it. To me (and others) it seems a really peculiar POV to hold.

Bully for you.

Quote from: Doctor Jest;635714Unless said people live in the Ozarks or the remote areas of the deep South, I very much doubt this is true. The Satanic Panic was nearly 30 years ago, and D&D was just one thing that got targeted along side a whole bunch of things. No reasonable person believes this anymore. Even blatantly Satanic imagery displaying Heavy Metal music doesn't really even bear the stigma anymore, much less D&D.

The rest of the world got over the Satanic Panic along time ago. It's about time gamers did. The self-loathing is sickening.

Try working in a game store for a year. It'll be an eye-opener for you.

Then again, maybe not, as I seem to remember that you advocated poking at people's PTSD in game in order to enhance the experience of the game. A perfectly reasonable position, I might add.

Quote from: Doctor Jest;635714Unless said people live in the Ozarks or the remote areas of the deep South, I very much doubt this is true. The Satanic Panic was nearly 30 years ago, and D&D was just one thing that got targeted along side a whole bunch of things. No reasonable person believes this anymore. Even blatantly Satanic imagery displaying Heavy Metal music doesn't really even bear the stigma anymore, much less D&D.

The rest of the world got over the Satanic Panic along time ago. It's about time gamers did. The self-loathing is sickening.

Visit Texas sometime. Ignorance is alive and well.

Quote from: jeff37923;635725How about this as a test for you. Take Poison'd, or Maid, or FATAL and run it in a public venue - like a convention or FLGS. Then get back to me about what the reactions from people observing were. Did those games make the observers want to try RPGs or did they get discouraged by the subject matter?

From personal experience, I can say that at least playing Maid in public doesn't cause any particular problems. Obviously you might want to make sure in advance that everyone is on the same page about acceptable behaviour, especially with unfamiliar players, but then the same applies pretty much to any other RPG demonstration as well.

Or New Mexico, for some seriously fucked up religious folk.

Quote from: Doctor Jest;635714Unless said people live in the Ozarks or the remote areas of the deep South, I very much doubt this is true. The Satanic Panic was nearly 30 years ago, and D&D was just one thing that got targeted along side a whole bunch of things. No reasonable person believes this anymore. Even blatantly Satanic imagery displaying Heavy Metal music doesn't really even bear the stigma anymore, much less D&D.

The rest of the world got over the Satanic Panic along time ago. It's about time gamers did. The self-loathing is sickening.

Sorry, but I still see this today.  All of those people who were freaked out about the Satanic Panic had kids, and those kids grew up and continued the panic for the next generation.  Just like those jocks who hated on the nerds grew up, had kids, and their kids are now tormenting the next generation of nerds.

Quote from: The Yann Waters;635733From personal experience, I can say that at least playing Maid in public doesn't cause any particular problems. Obviously you might want to make sure in advance that everyone is on the same page about acceptable behaviour, especially with unfamiliar players, but then the same applies pretty much to any other RPG demonstration as well.

Where did you play it in public?  At an FLGS, or at a place like a library?

Quote from: The Yann Waters;635733From personal experience, I can say that at least playing Maid in public doesn't cause any particular problems. Obviously you might want to make sure in advance that everyone is on the same page about acceptable behaviour, especially with unfamiliar players, but then the same applies pretty much to any other RPG demonstration as well.

I expected nothing less from our resident Maid apologist.

Quote from: The Yann Waters;635733From personal experience, I can say that at least playing Maid in public doesn't cause any particular problems. Obviously you might want to make sure in advance that everyone is on the same page about acceptable behaviour, especially with unfamiliar players, but then the same applies pretty much to any other RPG demonstration as well.

Um, no.  A million times no.  With "any other RPG demonstration", you don't have to a discussion about "Are you OK with seducing children in RPGs?"

And before you say, "It's a ghost", it should be point out that it's still a child, and it's the primary way to beat the challenge.  And "any other RPG demonstration" doesn't typically have "pedophile" (oh, I'm sorry, I mean "Likes 'em Young" :rolleyes: as a random attribute. And "any other RPG demonstration" doesn't typically have an example scenario in the book describing rape (tying up and undressing the victim while a male employer jokes about tearing up the stockings too.  And "any other RPG demonstration" doesn't have an example of gameplay being crawling into bed with a 14 year old girl, taking off clothes, and pressing yourself up against them.

Don't even try to compare a game like Maid with "any other RPG".

Quite frankly, it is more than just a little alarming that so many people in our hobby (at least the ones on the forums), are totally cool with child exploitation or sexualization, or even think it's awesome, because "Hey, Manga!  I'm not creepy!  It's Japanese!"  

Sorry, but you as a western white dude who's only exposure to Japanese culture is buying a Super Lemon at Anzen doesn't give you the right to use "Japanese Culture" as some sort of excuse to engage in some really creepy behavior.

Quote from: Sacrosanct;635754Quite frankly, it is more than just a little alarming that so many people in our hobby (at least the ones on the forums), are totally cool with child exploitation or sexualization, or even think it's awesome, because "Hey, Manga!  I'm not creepy!  It's Japanese!"  

I've felt for a while now that the next wave of RPG paranoia won't come from the Satanic Cult crowd, because the general public kind of shrugs about that these days.  (A portion of the Christian subculture, on the other hand, is quite different here.)

However, child exploitation is where I expect the lid to blow off of the Geek/Nerd subculture.  There's too much out there freebasing without enough people shouting it down --like Edward Kramer at DragonCon-- for this not to explode in a big way.

Quote from: flyerfan1991;635761However, child exploitation is where I expect the lid to blow off of the Geek/Nerd subculture.  There's too much out there freebasing without enough people shouting it down --like Edward Kramer at DragonCon-- for this not to explode in a big way.

I think that this is a really good point to mull over.

I know that I am old enough to have a daughter in her early twenties. How many other gamers have grown up and now have kids of their own? The composition of tabletop role-playing gamers has changed over the past few decades and so have many of the attitudes. Best to acknowledge that.

Quote from: jeff37923;635765I think that this is a really good point to mull over.

I know that I am old enough to have a daughter in her early twenties. How many other gamers have grown up and now have kids of their own? The composition of tabletop role-playing gamers has changed over the past few decades and so have many of the attitudes. Best to acknowledge that.

I have an 11 year old and a 22 (as of yesterday) year old.  This tacit approval of child sexploitation is seriously fucked up.

For example, let's look at a passage from Maid:

2 Maids, Rei is 26 years old with "Like 'em Young" and Kana is a 10 year old.  Here's what the book says about the 10 year old

Quote from: maidShe has mostly low attributes, and because of pressure from everyone around her she wears a transparent maid uniform (and with tights instead of a skirt no less).

And here is there example of how to play the game:

Quote from: maidRie: You're not very good at cleaning, are you? You really have to learn, right? (So saying, she instructs Kana incorrectly. Cunning result of 24).

Kana: L-like this...? (She poses like a witch riding a broom. Rie is teaching her how to clean with the mop between her legs. Since the player knows she can't win, Kana accepts this). Um... Uh... L-like this? (As for what's going on here, we'll leave it to the reader's imagination).

...

(But before that, Rie pulls off Kana's tights and underwear. Her attire was already shall we say questionable, but according to the maid uniform/disrobing rules she now takes a -2 penalty to all her actions. Kana's really in trouble).

Tomoe: ...Maybe I should use my Tresspass power?

Kana: I'm okay... Urgh... (Though not wearing anything on her bottom, she lets herself be led to eat breakfast).

And you have a conversation like this one (http://forum.rpg.net/showthread.php?415231-Maid-RPG-This-is-a-little-disturbing), where it's filled with people who not only think that stuff isn't creepy as fuck, but actually LIKE it.  Dozens of posters who say, "It's a great game, just ignore those parts if you don't like it."

I'm sorry, but a game that specifically tells you it's for 16 years or older players to play, and focuses on playing 9-15 year old girls (as reinforced by the artwork), and has the above an example of how to play it, you can't ignore that.  You shouldn't ignore it.  It's disgusting.  That's a 10 year old girl they are describing as being exploited up there.

And if I needed another reason to think Lizard is screwed up, I need look no further than his comment in that thread about the game

Quote from: LizardI found it charming and funny, and not at all creepy.

What
The
Fuck

Quote from: Sacrosanct;635766I have an 11 year old and a 22 (as of yesterday) year old.  This tacit approval of child sexploitation is seriously fucked up.

For example, let's look at a passage from Maid:

2 Maids, Rei is 26 years old with "Like 'em Young" and Kana is a 10 year old.  Here's what the book says about the 10 year old



And here is there example of how to play the game:



And you have a conversation like this one (http://forum.rpg.net/showthread.php?415231-Maid-RPG-This-is-a-little-disturbing), where it's filled with people who not only think that stuff isn't creepy as fuck, but actually LIKE it.  Dozens of posters who say, "It's a great game, just ignore those parts if you don't like it."

I'm sorry, but a game that specifically tells you it's for 16 years or older players to play, and focuses on playing 9-15 year old girls (as reinforced by the artwork), and has the above an example of how to play it, you can't ignore that.  You shouldn't ignore it.  It's disgusting.  That's a 10 year old girl they are describing as being exploited up there.

And if I needed another reason to think Lizard is screwed up, I need look no further than his comment in that thread about the game



What
The
Fuck

Jesus H. Christ :eek:

Quote from: Piestrio;635767Jesus H. Christ :eek:

Are people only now beginning to see why we find this game so fucked up that we do not want it representing our hobby?

Quote from: jeff37923;635768Are people only now beginning to see why we find this game so fucked up that we do not want it representing our hobby?

I knew it was fucked up but not... that fucked up.

Quote from: Piestrio;635770I knew it was fucked up but not... that fucked up.

I hope I didn't offend then. It is just that we have been talking about this game and others like it that we found had questionable game play for almost 5 years now.

I'm not defending Maid nor am I an apologist, but please realize, this game does not represent our hobby. It simply exists in it. I'm not condoning the content, but exclaiming "we can't allow this to represent our hobby!" loudly with pitchforks in hand is a tad hyperbolic.

Don't worry. Maid will never reach the audience that D&D and now Pathfinder has. Then toss in FFG, Mongoose, SJGames, and White Wolf and any potential buzz about the "Manga Pedophilia BDSM Game" could barely make a mark in a populace that still doesn't give a shit about what us geeks are rolling dice over.

Don't panic.

Quote from: trechriron;635799I'm not defending Maid nor am I an apologist, but please realize, this game does not represent our hobby. It simply exists in it. I'm not condoning the content, but exclaiming "we can't allow this to represent our hobby!" loudly with pitchforks in hand is a tad hyperbolic.

Don't worry. Maid will never reach the audience that D&D and now Pathfinder has. Then toss in FFG, Mongoose, SJGames, and White Wolf and any potential buzz about the "Manga Pedophilia BDSM Game" could barely make a mark in a populace that still doesn't give a shit about what us geeks are rolling dice over.

Don't panic.

Hyperbolic? No.

There is this belief that we tabletop gamers exist in isolation with our hobby away from the rest of the world and that just is not the case. Is our hobby in the world spotlight? No, and with a manga paedophilia wink-wink game like Maid in existance, that is a good thing because the backlash over it would be deafening.

Someone wants to play this in private, they can knock themselves out. I don't want it seen played in public or claimed to represent the mainstream of tabletop RPGs.

I currently live in a  city where they've opened up Tokyo-style "maid bars". I'd never heard of these before, but as explained by a friend who spent a lot of time in Japan, apparently its young asian girls dressed as french maids who basically dote on the socially inept male customers like they actually were their house slaves.

Sometimes I'm very glad to be born into Western culture.

Quote from: TristramEvans;635861I currently live in a  city where they've opened up Tokyo-style "maid bars". I'd never heard of these before, but as explained by a friend who spent a lot of time in Japan, apparently its young asian girls dressed as french maids who basically dote on the socially inept male customers like they actually were their house slaves.

Sometimes I'm very glad to be born into Western culture.

Unlike most Anime obsessed nerds in the Americas I've been to Akihabara and quite frankly it was embarrassing.

I didn't post any pictures from there on my Facebook.

Quote from: flyerfan1991;635748Where did you play it in public?  At an FLGS, or at a place like a library?

The university lawn, on a summer afternoon. We essentially played the "Happy Birthday!" scenario with Lilith Origami from that "Mansion of Madness" replay as the master, sticking to the basic rules. The short version: the master is a shy kid whose upcoming birthday isn't remembered by anyone except her loyal maids, who decide to scrounge up the best decorations, cakes, and presents that they can for a surprise party.

Quote from: Sacrosanct;635766I'm sorry, but a game that specifically tells you it's for 16 years or older players to play, and focuses on playing 9-15 year old girls (as reinforced by the artwork), and has the above an example of how to play it, you can't ignore that.  You shouldn't ignore it.  It's disgusting.  That's a 10 year old girl they are describing as being exploited up there.

The way in which Rie bullies Kana (and more discreetly, their master) in the replay admittedly is the most problematic part of the original book. That would be why, after the complaints in the RPGnet thread, Andy K decided that the translation wasn't "localized" enough, and from what I understand, the English version hasn't included those paragraphs since then.

As for the assumed ages, you already mentioned that Rie is 26, and the third maid who tries to keep her in check, Tomoe, is 20. More commonly in the book's replays and scenarios it's the masters who are underage, and using the random chargen charts may leave the PCs serving a two-year-old.

After checking the write-ups for the maids in the two other replays:

In "Are the Maids Burning?", Gerda is 25, while Lamia appears 19 and Mare 27. (The last two are a vampire and a demon, respectively, so might be older than they look.) Their master, Ises, is 11.

In "Maids at the End of the World", Nana is 10 and Jill appears 11. (Jill is a robot built with a child-like chassis, and Nana an elf clone cyborg, which might lead to further weirdness with aging.) Their master, Masami Onji, is 22.

Quote from: Sacrosanct;635674I'm afraid you just aren't getting it Grim.  This is a small hobby.  A community rather.  Yes, it very much impacts every single one of us when you have players who enjoy FATAL, Maid, etc.  Especially when those players see no issue with it being played right there in "the open" like it's no big deal.

Now, I imagine you might be thinking, "I shouldn't have to feel ashamed for playing the game I like in public.", and my answer to that is, "When that game involves sexual assault and seduction of minors, you're goddamn right you should feel ashamed at the very least."

I am sooooooooo fucking tired of people looking at me like I'm some sort of creeper when they find out I'm a gamer because all they've heard is the controversy around games like the above.  And make no mistake, it's the controversial games that get all the publicity, just like everything else.

So yeah, it is my best interests as a gamer, and it does affect me directly as a gamer, when games like those are enjoyed publicly.  I have always supported your right to create whatever product you want as long as it's legal, but don't for one minute act like you're not having a negative impact to the rest of us around you.

The right thing to do when people come at you with that shit is to come back with "so you quit watching movies after Irreversible was released, right?".  'course, the situation doesn't always allow for that, but I don't think trying to hedge people out of the hobby who generate controversy is an answer I'm willing to be part of.

Quote from: The Yann Waters;635887The way in which Rie bullies Kana (and more discreetly, their master) in the replay admittedly is the most problematic part of the original book. That would be why, after the complaints in the RPGnet thread, Andy K decided that the translation wasn't "localized" enough, and from what I understand, the English version hasn't included those paragraphs since then.
.

Even if you take that example, out, it's still fucking disgusting because the game still comes down to essentially "Take an adult and role-play out scenarios where children are sexploited."  The whole thing is just full of wonderful scenarios involving children and involving sex.  Perversion traits?

The level of apologism is fucked up.  And don't give me that shit about "Like 'em Young" meaning a 15 year old liking a 13 year old, or a 40 year old liking a 20 year old.  The game clearly puts it into a context of an adult liking a preteen.

I'd like to know where the social brigade is on this one.  They went to town against Golarian, but are oddly quiet on this.  Where you at Ettin?  JDCorely?  Halloween Jack?  Kai?  Oddly enough, Kai posted in that thread.  And while I didn't see him explicitly support the game, it's pretty implied that he doesn't have a problem with it either.  What?  Historically accurate portrayal of a Zulu warrior is an unforgivable sin, but role-playing out a 12 year old girl taking off her clothes rubbing her preteen boobs and fake crying is A-OK?

Sick fucks.  The lot of you.

Quote from: Sacrosanct;635674I'm afraid you just aren't getting it Grim.  This is a small hobby.  A community rather.  Yes, it very much impacts every single one of us when you have players who enjoy FATAL, Maid, etc.  Especially when those players see no issue with it being played right there in "the open" like it's no big deal.

Yeah....this isn't a community. I mean, there may be small online RPG "communities", but role players as a whole? No. Nothing of the sort. The vast populace still has no idea what RPGs are, and so all they "see" of public games is a bunch of weird guys sitting around in public saying bizarre thinsg and playing make pretend with odd dice. That stigma isnt going to go away. Maybe if RPgs had developed decades beforehand and had the chance to make it into everyday culture, but with the advent of videogames they are going to become quickly and quickly more archaic, a specialty hobby that appeals only to a select few. but I don't think games like MAID are ever going to colour perceptions one way or another. I mean, you pretty much have to already be into RPGs to have even heard of the game. Its not like housewives make regular stops into the LGs to check out what all the teen weirdos in town are into. Those games are never going to show up in a mass bookstore (which are pretty much on their way out themselves).


Not that I'm defending a game like Maid, because...well, "grody" is the only adjective I can think of, but I also think its about as harmful as Fantagraphix comics or mail-order straight to video slasher-porn.

Quote from: Alathon;635899The right thing to do when people come at you with that shit is to come back with "so you quit watching movies after Irreversible was released, right?".  'course, the situation doesn't always allow for that, but I don't think trying to hedge people out of the hobby who generate controversy is an answer I'm willing to be part of.

Yeah, not that simple.  It's the same reason all Tea Party members are viewed as racists.  Or how all jocks are viewed as bullies.  Or how all "nerds" are viewed as physically ugly and weak with no social skills at all.

And even if it were easy, it shouldn't even be an issue.  Games like Maid and FATAL are for sick fucks that have no place in any group.

It's NOT OK to fantasize about raping people.  It's NOT OK to fantasize about sexploiting children.  EVER.

Quote from: Sacrosanct;635904It's NOT OK to fantasize about raping people.  

sure it is. Its not only perfectly okay, its psychologically healthy.


Its just not a group activity.

Oh, no, wait, it can be that too.

Anyways, yeah, I'm totally anti-rape and totally pro-rape fantasies. and no this isn't a dichotomy if you're sane.

OTOH, I keep that stuiff pretty far away from gaming, which is a social activity with my friends. I don't want to hear about my friends' sexual fantasies and they don't need to  be subjected to mine.


FATAL is just a stupid, peurile game, no reason to give it any weight beyond that. I don't want to play it because I'm an adult, not because I think it will warp the minds of the young into evil rapists.

Quote from: Sacrosanct;635904Yeah, not that simple.  It's the same reason all Tea Party members are viewed as racists.  Or how all jocks are viewed as bullies.  Or how all "nerds" are viewed as physically ugly and weak with no social skills at all.

And even if it were easy, it shouldn't even be an issue.  Games like Maid and FATAL are for sick fucks that have no place in any group.

It's NOT OK to fantasize about raping people.  It's NOT OK to fantasize about sexploiting children.  EVER.

I really don't care what people do in the privacy of their minds, or their bedrooms, or their dining rooms, nor should I.  If they want to fantasize about or pretend to do fucked up shit, fine.  And I gotta say, I don't see how there's any other way to be about it that's reasonable.  That thoughtcrime shit has no place in human society.

As for avoiding getting tarred with their brush, I haven't found it to be that big a problem.  I say what sort of games I play or run in, say what we do, and people are generally pretty cool with that.  "I'm not with them" is a fine defense when it comes to a big-tent categories, you just gotta be straight about what you are into, and trust in your reputation as a trustworthy fellow.  I don't think I've ever had a real world problem with anyone on account of Hentacle Bento or whatever the fuck porno game is the new hawtness.

I believe that people have very different ideas of what is acceptable, or not.

For me, the line is adult age, mutual consent, and privacy.


If two adults want to dress up as mr and mrs potato head, wear leather fetish gear, and lick whipped cream off each other, in private...Good for them.

Who am I to tell an adult how to behave, in private, with other concsenting adults?

Quote from: Sacrosanct;635901Even if you take that example, out, it's still fucking disgusting because the game still comes down to essentially "Take an adult and role-play out scenarios where children are sexploited."  The whole thing is just full of wonderful scenarios involving children and involving sex.  Perversion traits?

You did notice, didn't you, that for a game which according to you "focuses on playing 9-15 year old girls", the majority of the player characters in those three session reports don't even look underage, and out of the three that do, only one is an actual human child? And that one is in the specific example which you cited, which was cleaned up afterwards, while none of the others are mistreated in any way? And even in the original version she is only humiliated, not "raped with a broomstick" as some posters around here like to claim, by one evil PC whose actions aren't exactly viewed favourably by the others?

Quote from: Sacrosanct;635901The level of apologism is fucked up.  And don't give me that shit about "Like 'em Young" meaning a 15 year old liking a 13 year old, or a 40 year old liking a 20 year old.  The game clearly puts it into a context of an adult liking a preteen.

The examples in the game include a single character, this same Rie, whose tastes seem to run that way. However, what the description for the Quality itself clearly states is that the player decides which age range "younger" means in this context. So yes, "a 40 year old liking a 20 year old" would fit every bit as well.

Not to mention that like the rest of the Perversion subchart, it's an option for players who agree to have a "darker" game. Otherwise, the same roll results in a regular Relationship instead.

Quote from: Alathon;635899The right thing to do when people come at you with that shit is to come back with "so you quit watching movies after Irreversible was released, right?".  'course, the situation doesn't always allow for that, but I don't think trying to hedge people out of the hobby who generate controversy is an answer I'm willing to be part of.

Thank you for demonstrating one of the geek social fallacies.

Quote from: Bill;635915I believe that people have very different ideas of what is acceptable, or not.

For me, the line is adult age, mutual consent, and privacy.


If two adults want to dress up as mr and mrs potato head, wear leather fetish gear, and lick whipped cream off each other, in private...Good for them.

Who am I to tell an adult how to behave, in private, with other concsenting adults?

You know, everything I have written has explicitly said the following - "What you do in private is none of my business, but it becomes my business when it is done in public and claims to represent my hobby."

So does it matter to you if Maid, the Sexploitation is played in public and publicly proclaimed to be representative of the hobby?

Quote from: The Yann Waters;635917The examples in the game

That is all that is needed to know. The distasteful crap is illustrated as examples of play in the game.

Quote from: jeff37923;635923So does it matter to you if Maid, the Sexploitation is played in public and publicly proclaimed to be representative of the hobby?

I don't think that will ever happen. Seriously, I dont thibnk anyone will get up and go "this game represents the RPG hobby". Not only is it stupid, its just not something any human being would actually say. I

Quote from: jeff37923;635924That is all that is needed to know. The distatseful crap is illustrated as examples of play in the game.

An example of how someone has played the game, more accurately. The "replays" are session records, not some perfectly polished guidelines for ideal gameplay.

Quote from: jeff37923;635921Thank you for demonstrating one of the geek social fallacies.

Is that the one where geeks claim they're so terrible at life that they can't explain something as straightforward as a D&D campaign to their friends and co-workers?

Quote from: TristramEvans;635926I don't think that will ever happen. Seriously, I dont thibnk anyone will get up and go "this game represents the RPG hobby". Not only is it stupid, its just not something any human being would actually say. I

So is this dissembling sidestep a "yes" or a "no" answer?

Quote from: Alathon;635928Is that the one where geeks claim they're so terrible at life that they can't explain something as straightforward as a D&D campaign to their friends and co-workers?

No, it is the one where they say that any geek is a good geek and must be welcomed into the social group, no matter if they like wink-wink paedophilia.

Quote from: jeff37923;635930No, it is the one where they say that any geek is a good geek and must be welcomed into the social group, no matter if they like wink-wink paedophilia.

The appropriate response to fellow participants in a hobby you find sketchy or of questionable taste, is to not inflict them on yourself and hang out with people you like.  And maybe to have a word with the sketches when you're stuck with them (Conventions?) about what is and isn't acceptable in public spaces if they're not comporting themselves public-wise.  Gaming isn't like your church or family, you're not stuck interacting with everyone who calls themselves a gamer.

If you've got evidence of wrongdoing, by all means go to the police.  If they're just skeevy, treat them like they're skeevy.

Quote from: Alathon;635899The right thing to do when people come at you with that shit is to come back with "so you quit watching movies after Irreversible was released, right?".  'course, the situation doesn't always allow for that, but I don't think trying to hedge people out of the hobby who generate controversy is an answer I'm willing to be part of.

Quote from: Alathon;635932The appropriate response to fellow participants in a hobby you find sketchy or of questionable taste, is to not inflict them on yourself and hang out with people you like.  And maybe to have a word with the sketches when you're stuck with them (Conventions?) about what is and isn't acceptable in public spaces if they're not comporting themselves public-wise.  Gaming isn't like your church or family, you're not stuck interacting with everyone who calls themselves a gamer.

If you've got evidence of wrongdoing, by all means go to the police.  If they're just skeevy, treat them like they're skeevy.

So, which is it? Because I cannot see treating someone who is being a creeper as being a creeper if you are unwilling to hedge them out of the hobby. Face it, we are talking about publicly shunning someone who has open public games about paedophilia or something else equally revolting. It is not a subject you can be on the fence about.

And I am doing it to protect the public image of the hobby, which has been tarnished enough by lawncrappers.

Quote from: Sacrosanct;635698Seriously, if gamers want to try to get out of this stereotype that they're a bunch of creepy neckbeards who masturbate over cover art, stop playing/putting out material that just reinforces that.  You might have the right to do so, but don't pretend like your actions aren't hurting everyone else

I'd think carefully about the incentive structures and messages you're creating when you do that.  The urge to drain the swamp is very well-meant, but there have been quite a large number of attempts to do so that only make bad things more popular or more visible.

Quote from: TristramEvans;635906Anyways, yeah, I'm totally anti-rape and totally pro-rape fantasies. and no this isn't a dichotomy if you're sane.

Yeah, it's quite possible to have perfectly healthy fantasies, on matters that you'd never want to happen to anyone in real life.  Depending on study, something like a third to a half of each gender have rape victimization fantasies, and another third have rape aggressor fantasies, and the vast majority of both groups go on to be perfectly normal and reasonable people.  Even as media involving rape fantasy has become dramatically more available over the last thirty years, we've seen a decrease in per capita rape.

That's a vastly different thing from whether it's a good idea to bring up in public, and especially in groups where the matter hasn't been carefully discussed first.

Quote from: jeff37923;635934So, which is it? Because I cannot see treating someone who is being a creeper as being a creeper if you are unwilling to hedge them out of the hobby. Face it, we are talking about publicly shunning someone who has open public games about paedophilia or something else equally revolting. It is not a subject you can be on the fence about.

And I am doing it to protect the public image of the hobby, which has been tarnished enough by lawncrappers.

There's no "which", both posts said the same thing.  Your quest is futile and stupid, you're trying to filter the members of a hobby, something that anyone can participate in.  It'd be like going after people who watch Saw movies and trying to convince the world that A: they aren't movie fans, and B: they should somehow not be able to watch their fucked up movies anymore.

And I might add, my first post was responding to a hysterical complaint about fantasies, not even actual conduct.

Quote from: This Guy;635198Comes up more often in freeform or online tabletop games where everyone has a stronger freeform background and are generally more comfortable with raunchy shit.  Around the table, it happens on occasion but is largely glossed over.

Anyway, more broadly on the topic, this is how I prefer to handle sex in roleplay, as well. Face to face, anything explicit generally takes place "off-screen". However, the same's not necessarily true online, especially on the more "adult-oriented" venues.

Quote from: Alathon;635939There's no "which", both posts said the same thing.  Your quest is futile and stupid, you're trying to filter the members of a hobby, something that anyone can participate in.

It may be futile, but I do not want a hobby I participate in to be associated with lawncrappers. I do not find paedophilia acceptable for actual play, especially in public.

Quote from: Alathon;635939It'd be like going after people who watch Saw movies and trying to convince the world that A: they aren't movie fans, and B: they should somehow not be able to watch their fucked up movies anymore.

Here is where you are putting words in my mouth and miss my point.

Privately, they can play whatever the fuck they want. I have no business in their private affairs. Publicly or when they are claiming to be representative of my hobby, no fucking way in Hell will I allow that to go unoppossed.

If some gore porn addict wants to masturbate to SAW in the privacy of his own home, that is his business. If he tries to do so at a convention or CD store, claiming that he is only doing what every other moviegoer does - then that is mightily fucked up.

Quote from: jeff37923;635929So is this dissembling sidestep a "yes" or a "no" answer?

To what question?

Quote from: gattsuru;635935That's a vastly different thing from whether it's a good idea to bring up in public, and especially in groups where the matter hasn't been carefully discussed first.

True, I'd never bring it into my games. and seriously consider ousting any player who did.

Quote from: The Yann Waters;635917You did notice, didn't you, that for a game which according to you "focuses on playing 9-15 year old girls", the majority of the player characters in those three session reports don't even look underage, and out of the three that do, only one is an actual human child? And that one is in the specific example which you cited, which was cleaned up afterwards, while none of the others are mistreated in any way? And even in the original version she is only humiliated, not "raped with a broomstick" as some posters around here like to claim, by one evil PC whose actions aren't exactly viewed favourably by the others?

The art direction, as well as how the rules are structured, places a large emphasis on children.  This is fact.  And if there was any question left as to just how fucked up in the head you are, you have just described that act of placing a 10 year old girl in transparant clothing, and then stripped of her underwear and tights, and forced to ride a broom by a character described as "liking them young" simply as humiliation.  That's not humiliation.  That's child sexual assault you stupid fucker!

As the father of children, I cannot tell you how much loathing I have for you right now.  You are a sick fuck.

QuoteThe examples in the game include a single character, this same Rie, whose tastes seem to run that way. However, what the description for the Quality itself clearly states is that the player decides which age range "younger" means in this context. So yes, "a 40 year old liking a 20 year old" would fit every bit as well.

But the context of the game clearly positions it as adults liking children.  Again you show just how much of a sick fuck you are.

"You can totally choose the age limit, wink wink.  But in our example, it's an adult with a 10 year old.  Because that's how you're supposed to play

QuoteNot to mention that like the rest of the Perversion subchart, it's an option for players who agree to have a "darker" game. Otherwise, the same roll results in a regular Relationship instead.

Holy....

If you have to ignore or change the rules of a game to not make it about child sexploitation, than it's a fucked up game.  How can this not be obvious?

Oh wait, you've shown yourself to be a clear apologist for child sexploitation.  I can only hope that it's an internal fuckery in your head, and I hope to God that you haven't taken similar attitudes with children in real life.

Sex makes people stupid.

Sexual discussions are always the third rail.

Quote from: Sacrosanct;635958The art direction, as well as how the rules are structured, places a large emphasis on children.  This is fact.  And if there was any question left as to just how fucked up in the head you are, you have just described that act of placing a 10 year old girl in transparant clothing, and then stripped of her underwear and tights, and forced to ride a broom by a character described as "liking them young" simply as humiliation.  That's not humiliation.  That's child sexual assault you stupid fucker!

...Except that's not what actually happens: sorry to say, you're listing the events in the wrong order to match your own misinterpretation. Kana's wearing the full uniform when Rie tricks her into sweeping the floor in the wrong way, teaching her that a true maid would ride the broom around the room like a witch. Yes, the uniform is transparent, but the clothes underneath aren't. And yes, that's uncomfortably suggestive, but far from a sexual assault.

Granted, tampering with Kana's clothes later so that she has to serve breakfast without being properly dressed is a more grievous offence. But again, that is all about Rie wanting to humiliate her. The older maid's bullying ways are supposedly the reason for the questionable uniform in the first place (which means that Kana's player must have come up with that piece of background).

As for younger-looking maids in the (sparse) artwork? Some of those are underage characters from the text, but the rest are chibi versions of the older ones. The demon maid Hizumi is an edge case: she at least looks seventeen, and shows up all over the place.

Quote from: Sacrosanct;635958"You can totally choose the age limit, wink wink.  But in our example, it's an adult with a 10 year old.  Because that's how you're supposed to play

As said, replays are descriptions of how a game has been played, not how it's supposed to be played. And even then, the most logical reason for Rie going after Kana instead of the others is that the youngest maid makes for an easy target, especially after the "Teasing" Stress Explosion kicks in. Tomoe has demonstrated by then that she'll happily beat up Rie if they clash, and mistreating the master Lilith would go... badly.

It is plausible that Rie's player made the character the oldest because of that Quality, though. There's technically no reason why she couldn't have been, for instance, the same age as Kana.

Quote from: Sacrosanct;635958If you have to ignore or change the rules of a game to not make it about child sexploitation, than it's a fucked up game.  How can this not be obvious?

That has nothing to do with changing or ignoring the rules. The chargen includes two subcharts for the roll result of 51: the Relationship chart for a "lighter" game, and the Perversion chart for "darker". You literally can never get the "Likes Them Young" Quality from those charts without the players deliberately choosing it over an "Ex-Lover/Love Rival" relationship with someone else. And of course, even if you do, none of the Relationship/Perversion Qualities really have a mechanical effect: they are more of a suggestion for roleplaying.

Quote from: GrumpyReviews;635971Sex makes people stupid.

Sexual discussions are always the third rail.

sex, politics and religion: the three worse topics to discuss with anyone that doesn't already agree with you.

especially online.

Quote from: The Yann Waters;635974...Except that's not what actually happens: sorry to say, you're listing the events in the wrong order to match your own misinterpretation.

Misinterpretation?  Dude, the BOOK says this:

Quote(As for what's going on here, we'll leave it to the reader's imagination).

With all the other sexual innuendos and wink wink shit going on, it's clear what the intent is.  Especially when the whole gist of the book comes down to: Teen girls + sexual references + doing favors for your master.  Jesus H Christ you are a piece of work.  And by piece of work, I mean piece of shit.

QuoteThat has nothing to do with changing or ignoring the rules. The chargen includes two subcharts for the roll result of 51: the Relationship chart for a "lighter" game, and the Perversion chart for "darker". You literally can never get the "Likes Them Young" Quality from those charts without the players deliberately choosing it over an "Ex-Lover/Love Rival" relationship with someone else. And of course, even if you do, none of the Relationship/Perversion Qualities really have a mechanical effect: they are more of a suggestion for roleplaying.

Again, if you have to ignore, or change the rules to avoid the possibility that you're paying a pedophile, then that speaks volumes.  

So far you've made excuses like "It's just one kid.."  Guess what?  One child being sexploited is one fucking kid too much!

You've said, "These are just suggestions, not hard fast rules and you can ignore them."  Guess what?  If a game suggests that you can roleplay sexual assault on 10 year olds, then it's a fucking sick game.

This isn't rocket science.  You're a sick fucking individual who I hope isn't ever around kids.  You can hide behind the anonymity of the internet, but I'm pretty sure people with kids would sure as hell like to know if you're living in their neighborhood with some of the crap you've said here.

Quote from: The Yann Waters;635974As said, replays are descriptions of how a game has been played, not how it's supposed to be played.

Why would an author imagine that a "replay" -- an example of play -- in a rule book be anything other than an indication of how play is expected to flow? What other purpose in the text could it possibly serve? It seems disingenuous to claim it's anything but a tool to teach the game.

Quote from: gattsuru;635935Depending on study, something like a third to a half of each gender have rape victimization fantasies, and another third have rape aggressor fantasies, and the vast majority of both groups go on to be perfectly normal and reasonable people.  Even as media involving rape fantasy has become dramatically more available over the last thirty years, we've seen a decrease in per capita rape.

Just as in Japan itself, where this admittedly skeevy subject matter is apparently more acceptable, there's also a lot less per capita rape than here.  

JG

Quote from: James Gillen;635995Just as in Japan itself, where this admittedly skeevy subject matter is apparently more acceptable, there's also a lot less per capita rape than here.  

JG

I'll point out that the mayor of Tokyo was pilloried by geeks the world over for instituting a package of restrictions on a lot of the child-porn-esque anime and manga.

In the nerd world this was an attack on free speech and Japanese culture.

In the real world it was massively popular in Japan and the mayor was returned to office easily.

Japan doesn't have a more permissive attitude towards child sexploitation, Japan has a problem with pedophiles.

It's really NOT more acceptable with normal people in Japan. It's just that Japan's fandom has been saturated with creeps and perverts.

"Otaku" is not a good thing in Japan. Most Japanese people recognize these pathetic perverts for what they are.

Quote from: Piestrio;635998Japan doesn't have a more permissive attitude towards child sexploitation, Japan has a problem with pedophiles.

It's really NOT more acceptable with normal people in Japan. It's just that Japan's fandom has been saturated with creeps and perverts.

"Otaku" is not a good thing in Japan. Most Japanese people recognize these pathetic perverts for what they are.

It is hard to get closer to facts in Japan when it comes to disgraceful things. There is a saying there " if something stinks in the pot, put a lid on it".

There are different kinds of fandom in Japan. "Otaku" isn't a positive image, but Japanese people don't automatically jump to the conclusion that all otaku are criminally perverted. An otaku could be assumed to be a 20 year old virgin or girly magazine wanker quite easily, but not assumed to much worse than that unless there are other reasons to assume that.

Quote from: jeff37923;635945It may be futile, but I do not want a hobby I participate in to be associated with lawncrappers. I do not find paedophilia acceptable for actual play, especially in public.

...

Here is where you are putting words in my mouth and miss my point.

Privately, they can play whatever the fuck they want. I have no business in their private affairs. Publicly or when they are claiming to be representative of my hobby, no fucking way in Hell will I allow that to go unoppossed.

If some gore porn addict wants to masturbate to SAW in the privacy of his own home, that is his business. If he tries to do so at a convention or CD store, claiming that he is only doing what every other moviegoer does - then that is mightily fucked up.

Okay, maybe I'm just being pedantic about this, and reading some of Sacrosanct's post into yours, since I was responding to him first.  If you want the conventions and gaming stores you patronize to be free of stuff you think is fucked up, arguing for that is fair ball in my book.  Same for arguing that you don't want to see that shit on a internet forum, or mailing list, or what-have-you.

I don't think any of that can ever constitute kicking them out of the hobby, 'cuz they can just set up their own HentaCons (don't these already exist?) and you can't stop 'em, and as always the fringe will get the headlines.  Trying to kick the pervs out of gaming is exactly as productive as trying to kick the pervs out of movies and moviemaking, it's like trying to punch out the sky.

Quote from: Alathon;636024I don't think any of that can ever constitute kicking them out of the hobby, 'cuz they can just set up their own HentaCons (don't these already exist?) and you can't stop 'em, and as always the fringe will get the headlines.  Trying to kick the pervs out of gaming is exactly as productive as trying to kick the pervs out of movies and moviemaking, it's like trying to punch out the sky.

No worries. Maybe dealing with creepers in gaming is an act of eternal vigilance, keeping people informed outside of gaming that we shun them and do not find their crap acceptable. Otherwise we run the risk of both driving away long time gamers and people who might be interested in gaming but just haven't tried it yet.

I don't mind punching the sky for awhile in this case.

Quote from: Brad J. Murray;635982Why would an author imagine that a "replay" -- an example of play -- in a rule book be anything other than an indication of how play is expected to flow? What other purpose in the text could it possibly serve? It seems disingenuous to claim it's anything but a tool to teach the game.

Replays are read for entertainment, and even published in books of their own separately from the actual games. That's an aspect of the Japanese gaming subculture which has had no real counterpart in, say, the US RPG industry.

Quote from: Sacrosanct;635979With all the other sexual innuendos and wink wink shit going on, it's clear what the intent is.  Especially when the whole gist of the book comes down to: Teen girls + sexual references + doing favors for your master.

Except, of course, for all the maids who aren't teenagers, the scenarios which don't involve anything sexual, and the masters who aren't interested in pursuing the maids. But I'll have to say that you are, in fact, providing a model example of how leaving anything to the reader's imagination can be ill-advised, because some readers will leap to the very worst possible conclusions.

(Oh, and resorting to personal insults or screaming until you're blue in the face isn't going to sway me. I'm not that easily goaded.)

Here's the thing - while MAID probably has nothing to do with our hobby, focusing attention on it in an attempt to drum up moral outrage against it creates the perception that it does.  I'm an avid gamer, and I'd never heard of MAID before I came to this site.  I've never heard of MAID outside of the context of this site, either.  Assuming that it even exists, the only reason I know about it is because of gamers that keep announcing it to the world.

Sure, it sounds like a pretty despicable game.  And maybe people who enjoy it should be on a government watch list.  But it sounds like you can play the game in a non-exploitive-to-minors way.  Since I'm not going to pick up the game to find out how easy that might be, I'd prefer to just assume that most people play it in a non-fucked up way.  Likewise, in D&D, you can rape every child you meet.  There are no rules that prevent fucked-up-behavior.  Any RPG can feature some grusome things.  Having rules specifically in place to PREVENT such abhorrent bevhavior is stupid, because it focused attention on something that virtually nobody is going to think about unless the rules focus in on it.  

If I'm gathering things correctly, MAID is a translation of a game originally released in Japan.  Even for Japan, it's probably fucked up.  And in the United States, it's probably doubly so.  But if that's all the people invovled are doing - playing a game - then it's not such a big deal.  Ignore it, and nobody will associate those gamers with our hobby.

The bigger issue is that gamers are often seen as mouth-breathing basement-dwelling neckbeards that possess too few social skills and too much body-odor.  If you want to improve the perception of our hobby, GQ it up a little bit, get into a committed relationship with a member of your preferred gender, and don't use gaming as a virtual sexual arena.  

Once you're outside of that, sex in gaming is a non-issue.  If it suits the characters and the stories, it happens.  For most adults, it can happen off-screen and the specific details are immaterial.  As long as people aren't rolling a dice to judge their 'performance', it really doesn't matter.  

And if people are being juvenile and making the hobby look bad, well, you're not going to drive them out by telling them you disapprove.  The hobby is self-selecting, so as long as they can find like-minded players with whom to play, such gamers will exist.  To recruit players despite the negative stereotypes, be prepared to explain what the game DOES offer.

Quote from: Nexus;635977sex, politics and religion: the three worse topics to discuss with anyone that doesn't already agree with you.

People should be careful before discussing these issues. And they should never act surprised when it inevitably descends into hate speech, name calling and hysterics. Because it always does.

Quote from: The Yann Waters;636045Replays are read for entertainment, and even published in books of their own separately from the actual games. That's an aspect of the Japanese gaming subculture which has had no real counterpart in, say, the US RPG industry.

Ah, the "You don't understand Japanese culture" excuse.  Too bad pretty much everyone who has lived, or is currently living in Japan has said that excuse is bullshit.

QuoteExcept, of course, for all the maids who aren't teenagers, the scenarios which don't involve anything sexual, and the masters who aren't interested in pursuing the maids. But I'll have to say that you are, in fact, providing a model example of how leaving anything to the reader's imagination can be ill-advised, because some readers will leap to the very worst possible conclusions.

(Oh, and resorting to personal insults or screaming until you're blue in the face isn't going to sway me. I'm not that easily goaded.)

The game is filled with preteen examples of NPCs.  Those are options you can roll up on the charts.  It's FILLED with sexual innuendos.  It has examples of children being sexually assaulted as the way to play the game (until finally bowing to pressure to remove only that part, but to leave all the other creepy parts in).  And yet here you are, again, waving that away.  I shouldn't be surprised.  Googling up every thread about Maid in the past 5 years on other forums, and one thing is consistent.  You.  In every thread, no matter the forum, you're there defending the game.  

You are exactly like that NAMBLA guy arguing that there's nothing wrong there either, using similar arguments.

So, do you just masturbate at sexploited children, or do you actively try to hurt them yourself?  I'm just trying to figure out what level of disgust you actually operate on.

Quote from: deadDMwalking;636046Sure, it sounds like a pretty despicable game.  And maybe people who enjoy it should be on a government watch list.  But it sounds like you can play the game in a non-exploitive-to-minors way.  Since I'm not going to pick up the game to find out how easy that might be, I'd prefer to just assume that most people play it in a non-fucked up way.  Likewise, in D&D, you can rape every child you meet.  There are no rules that prevent fucked-up-behavior.  Any RPG can feature some grusome things.  Having rules specifically in place to PREVENT such abhorrent bevhavior is stupid, because it focused attention on something that virtually nobody is going to think about unless the rules focus in on it.  .

No, here's the thing you're missing, and it's a significant difference.  In D&D, child sexploitation won't ever come up unless you specifically add it there.  In Maid, you have to actively ignore or change the rules to avoid it.  If you play RAW, you will eventually have preteens and teens in the game in scenarios that are sexually explicit.  You will have to seduce that 13 year old boy master.

"Hey, it's just on the tables, and you can ignore that."

Bullshit.  Those rules were put there with the knowledge that these sick scenarios will come up.  They were put there intentionally as part of the game design process.  Child sexploitation in that game isn't an accident, it was designed into the game.  It's like arguing that you could play D&D without any magic.  Sure, you technically could, but it's clearly not intended that way.

Quote from: Sacrosanct;636052Bullshit.  Those rules were put there with the knowledge that these sick scenarios will come up.  They were put there intentionally as part of the game design process.  Child sexploitation in that game isn't an accident, it was designed into the game.  It's like arguing that you could play D&D without any magic.  Sure, you technically could, but it's clearly not intended that way.

So you think that nobody should play the game.  That's fine.  I don't think anyone should play the game, either.  I don't.  I won't.  

But you're not going to shame someone that likes the game into not liking the game and/or not playing it.  Either they don't agree with your assessment (which to be fair, I don't know [or care] if it is accurate) or they're shamelessly into child exploitation.  

So, you're not going to change anyone's mind with an impassioned speech about how morally reprehensible the game is - all you're doing is cementing in the minds of people that people who like RPGs are into child exploitation.  Because, you see, the terms we're throwing about get thrown into a search engine.  

If you don't like MAID (and I think you have plenty of good reasons not to), you're best off completely ignoring it.  You can't make it go away, and by focusing attention on it, you're only encouraging people to take it up - even if only to judge for themselves whether it's a sick-as-fuck game or you're overreacting.  

Since I imagine you're not interested in raising the sales figures of the game, ignore it.  You remind me of John Goodman's character in the 1993 movie 'Matinee'.  He stands in front of the theater protesting the showing of a horror film, calling it 'ungodly entertainment', but the town, in an attempt to reject perceived censorship makes the opening night a smashing success.  Protest INCREASED the visibility and success of the movie.  So, maybe you're really passionate about saving children from sexploitation.  That's good, and laudable.  But if you're really serious about it, you should stop doing things that actually make it more likely instead of less.

deadDMwalking - I think to some degree you're right about Maid as far as this forum goes.  I don't think any players of it are likely to be convinced by discussion here.  

On the other hand, Maid is discussed and promoted in other forums.  It does have some support, and I see it being played at several conventions or other gatherings.  I played it first as a playtest of the translation at Gen Con, and have seen it played several other times at conventions or mini-cons.  In these communities, I think it should be spoken against.  

Incidentally, there were no under-age characters in the two games I played.  We chose the ages of our characters, which I believe is strictly by the rules.  So while I agree that the book content is creepy, I don't think the same of all players of it.

Quote from: GrumpyReviews;635971Sex makes people stupid.

Sexual discussions are always the third rail.

Not always.

You got stupid over poorly researched racial demographics in gaming.

Quote from: deadDMwalking;636046The bigger issue is that gamers are often seen as mouth-breathing basement-dwelling neckbeards that possess too few social skills and too much body-odor.  If you want to improve the perception of our hobby, GQ it up a little bit, get into a committed relationship with a member of your preferred gender, and don't use gaming as a virtual sexual arena.  

However, as even you have admitted, having games like Maid or FATAL or Poison'd floating around don't help that image of gamers at all.

Yeah, I think it's safe to say we as gamers are in a pretty bad place when the reaction to child sexploitation is just to ignore it.  It doesn't matter if some, or even most players of Maid don't roleplay out scenarios of child sexploitation.  The fact is, is that that game includes it as something is either outright encouraged (see quotes from the game), or puts itself as, "If you want to roleplay out child sexual assault, we totally got rules for you!"  Like I said, you have to literally ignore or change the rules to avoid the chance of ever sexploiting a child in the game.  It's hard coded people.  Doesn't matter if it's a random table result.  It's there.


The answer is not to just ignore it.  For fuck's sake people.  At what low point have you sunk when child sexploitation just doesn't matter?  I don't care if it doesn't happen at my table.  Someone who gets their rocks off roleplaying out scenarios where children are sexually assaulted is not an "It's OK as long as it's private" sort of thing.  It's a trait of a fucked up human being that needs to be called out at every turn.

Jesus, it's no wonder why the creepy gamer stereotype still exists.

Quote from: Sacrosanct;636082Jesus, it's no wonder why the creepy gamer stereotype still exists.

I'm beginning the think the whole "You don't need to be ashamed of what you like! Let your geek flag fly!" might have been a bad idea.

It just sent a message to all the creepers that they could come join our parade.

It seems to be happening with more and more fandoms. Furries, Anime, Ponies, etc...

Quote from: Sacrosanct;636052Ah, the "You don't understand Japanese culture" excuse.  Too bad pretty much everyone who has lived, or is currently living in Japan has said that excuse is bullshit.

Too bad, too, that you are once again reading something into my post that simply isn't there. I was asked what other reason there is to publish the play reports, and I answered with the objective fact of replays as part of the Japanese gaming subculture. That has nothing to do with "you just don't understand" excuses.

Quote from: Sacrosanct;636052The game is filled with preteen examples of NPCs. Those are options you can roll up on the charts.  It's FILLED with sexual innuendos.  It has examples of children being sexually assaulted as the way to play the game (until finally bowing to pressure to remove only that part, but to leave all the other creepy parts in).

What, by "filled with preteen examples of NPCs" you mean all three of them? (Those would be Yugami from the rules examples, Mao from "Black Cat Mansion", and Eve from "Liberty".) Yes, as mentioned earlier, the chargen chart method for rolling up butlers and masters can result in two-year-olds as well as the elderly: imagine, for example, a cadre of maids charged with protecting an infant of royal blood from the armies of a pretender who has seized the throne. Yes, Maid does contain a certain amount of innuendo, and obviously the range of reactions to having that in the same book with child(-like) characters shows that the author's "funny-sexy" attitude as opposed to "creepy-sexy" wasn't quite conveyed successfully. But none of that coerces the players into anything unseemly.

The Rie/Kana situation was ill-advised from the start, but it's also clearly not a "broomstick rape scene" as some detractors would have you believe. Child abuse? In a loose sense, yes, and unfortunately suggestive. Actual sexual assault? No. I can honestly say that I can't see it in any of the book.

(You'll have to pardon me for ignoring any accusations of an unhealthy interest in children. Frankly, those don't merit a response other than a categorical "nope".)

Quote from: Sacrosanct;636052In D&D, child sexploitation won't ever come up unless you specifically add it there.  In Maid, you have to actively ignore or change the rules to avoid it.  If you play RAW, you will eventually have preteens and teens in the game in scenarios that are sexually explicit.  You will have to seduce that 13 year old boy master.

That's either severely misinformed or a blatant lie, considering that seduction in itself is not only completely optional but also not even part of the original core game. And if you do make use of the mechanic, "seduction" doesn't necessarily lead to sex in Maid: the term broadly covers emotionally overwhelming someone to your side, little different from Charm Person in D&D. Saying "I love you"? That's a by-the-book example of a seduction. Everything "sexually explicit" in the game is an option for the groups that want those (earning Favour for intimacy with the master, for example), and even in that case, the events can be glossed over without any trouble.

Quote from: deadDMwalking;636046But it sounds like you can play the game in a non-exploitive-to-minors way.  Since I'm not going to pick up the game to find out how easy that might be, I'd prefer to just assume that most people play it in a non-fucked up way.

They do, which is precisely the reason why I keep pointing out the inaccuracies in the claims about the game until that one day finally sinks in. For the record, these are the sample scenarios included in the book:

"Please Be Our Demon King": The demon maids who take care of a ten-level fantasy dungeon are interviewing candidates (all of them women fleeing from somewhere else) for the position of the Big Bad after their former boss came down with a lethal case of random adventurers. In the meantime, the monsters must be fed and the traps oiled.

"Happy Birthday!": The shy young master's birthday will be in a week, and so the maids prepare a surprise party, scrounging up decorations, cakes, and presents. Yes, that's all there is to it.

"Black Cat Mansion": The maids have been sent away to fix up an old family mansion so that their absent brat of a master can move in. However, they must first deal with a strange doctor who's taken up residence there, as well as a catgirl ghost who's taken on the role of the estate's guardian spirit.

"Maids Take the Stage": Much like in a maid-themed episode of Who Wants to Marry a Millionaire?, the characters have been gathered together in a remote mansion to compete for the privilege of marrying a powerful master. Secretly, however, there may be an assassin lurking among them.

"Miko RPG!": Instead of maids as such, this scenario revolves around Shinto shrine maidens who in the name of the god Igukami guard the buried prison of an ancient evil against its Lovecraftian minions and bunny-eared priestesses, as the final reckoning draws near.

"Rise of the Demon King": A.k.a. "Please Be Our Demon King: The Sequel", in which the demon maids leave the dungeon and set out to conquer the rest of the world for their new master, leading the armies of darkness until a great hero finally appears to challenge them.

"Treasure Hunt!": The master fancies himself as a bit of an Indiana Jones, and now seeks the legendary buried treasure of Tokugawa. However, the excavation soon runs into trouble with environmentalist demonstrations and the schemes of one corrupt politician with plans of his own for that plot of land, and the master needs help not to lose faith in the project.

"Operation Love Academy": In the prestigious Richmond Academy, the freshman master has fallen in love at first sight with the most popular girl at the school. Can his loyal maids help him win her heart despite the hordes of other students who try to keep them apart?

"Maidenrangers of Love and Justice": The Maid Board Game. The HQ of Maid Sentai Maidenrangers, the X-City Branch Office of JUSTICE, Inc, has been invaded by the forces of the Evil Emperor. The sentai maids must fight their way around the sixteen rooms of the mansion, searching for useful items as close in on the Emperor's lair.

"Invincible Justibine": New maids at the Saionji Foundation's research facility on a faraway artificial island discover that they've been hired for a different reason that they might have expected: to pilot the General-Purpose Humanoid Weapon Justibine, a cutting-edge giant robot, against an impending alien invasion.

"Liberty: The Final Maid Maiden": The Maid Hazard has changed the world. Spreading out from the Internet, the enigmatic phenomenon transformed a significant portion of the global population into superpowered maids, who initially were reduced to servitude but then rebelled against their masters. Now, in the year 50 AM ("After Maid"), only seven Master Cities remain of Old Humanity, and Osaka Geofront has called for volunteers to don the experimental, and colour-coded, suits which mimic the powers of the Maid Empire. Their mission: to find and confront the Final Maid, whose arrival signifies the ultimate end of the old order.

Note that in "Please Be Our Demon King" the PCs are essentially shopping for a master that suits them, in "Black Cat Mansion" the master never shows up in person during play, in "Miko RPG!" the master is a deity without any physical manifestation, and in "Liberty" the remnants of the old human species are the "masters".

Quote from: jhkim;636073Incidentally, there were no under-age characters in the two games I played.  We chose the ages of our characters, which I believe is strictly by the rules.  So while I agree that the book content is creepy, I don't think the same of all players of it.

Right. The names and the ages are the only details which are never rolled for maid PCs: the players always decide those, and it wouldn't make sense for, say, a chainsmoking CIA agent from the random charts to be a preteen. The youngest maid I've seen in actual play was sixteen.

Quote from: The Yann Waters;636093That's either severely misinformed or a blatant lie, considering that seduction in itself is not only completely optional but also not even part of the original core game. And if you do make use of the mechanic, "seduction" doesn't necessarily lead to sex in Maid: the term broadly covers emotionally overwhelming someone to your side, little different from Charm Person in D&D. Saying "I love you"? That's a by-the-book example of a seduction. Everything "sexually explicit" in the game is an option for the groups that want those (earning Favour for intimacy with the master, for example), and even in that case, the events can be glossed over without any trouble.

You really don't seem to understand.

I, and I'd hazard most normal people, don't want ANYTHING AT ALL to do with child sexploitation to be ANY PART of any entertainment product. EVER.

"doesn't necessarily lead to sex", "optional", "option", "can be glossed over" are not words that suddenly make child porn a-okay.

Saying you can just "ignore the pre-teen sexual part, it's totally optional" is several levels of fucked up.

You're a sick fuck.  That's all there is to it.  That scene described above with the broomstick along with a note by the author of "we'll leave it up to you as to what's happening wink wink" and you are honestly saying that it's not implying a sexual scenario?  I'm here to tell you that making a 10 year old strip naked and suggestively ride a broomstick is in fact sexual assault.  What next, you don't think it's sexual assault because "they wanted it"?

Sorry to invoke you GMS, but this is such a clear example of Skarka's law it's disgusting.  You're making excuse after excuse for inexcusable behavior.

QuoteThat's either severely misinformed or a blatant lie, considering that seduction in itself is not only completely optional but also not even part of the original core game.

Is it not entirely possible, using RAW and not ignoring or changing any of them, to have the players in a situation where they have to, or are highly encouraged to from a mechanical sense, to seduce a young male child master?

Just because you personally aren't describing in detail how you're fondling his balls doesn't make the sentence, "I am going to seduce the 13 year old boy" any less disgusting.

Quoteight. The names and the ages are the only details which are never rolled for maid PCs: the players always decide those, and it wouldn't make sense for, say, a chainsmoking CIA agent from the random charts to be a preteen. The youngest maid I've seen in actual play was sixteen.

This doesn't help your case at all.  Even if the players all chose adults, they still run into scenarios where they have to seduce young children.  In what way is "A group of adult women (players) in a game full of sexual innuendos and scenarios needing to seduce a 13 year old boy." acceptable?

Quote from: Piestrio;636083I'm beginning the think the whole "You don't need to be ashamed of what you like! Let your geek flag fly!" might have been a bad idea.

It just sent a message to all the creepers that they could come join our parade.

It seems to be happening with more and more fandoms. Furries, Anime, Ponies, etc...

Yeah, the unquestioning acceptance of creepers as fellow nerds does not help. I think it damages our hobby.

I'm going to spin this off into another thread.

Quote from: Sacrosanct;636082The answer is not to just ignore it.  For fuck's sake people.  At what low point have you sunk when child sexploitation just doesn't matter?  I don't care if it doesn't happen at my table.  Someone who gets their rocks off roleplaying out scenarios where children are sexually assaulted is not an "It's OK as long as it's private" sort of thing.  It's a trait of a fucked up human being that needs to be called out at every turn.

Quote from: Piestrio;636099You really don't seem to understand.

I, and I'd hazard most normal people, don't want ANYTHING AT ALL to do with child sexploitation to be ANY PART of any entertainment product. EVER.

"doesn't necessarily lead to sex", "optional", "option", "can be glossed over" are not words that suddenly make child porn a-okay.

Saying you can just "ignore the pre-teen sexual part, it's totally optional" is several levels of fucked up.

I stand behind these statements with solidarity and am looking over the line in the sand at pervert apologists on the other side of the line.

Quote from: Drohem;636106I stand behind these statements with solidarity and am looking over the line in the sand at pervert apologists on the other side of the line.

I am not an apologist for any of them or what they do. Once I was a crime beat reporter and sex offenders and the damage they do was part of the job. I hated it.

However, internet discussions of sex - and RPG discussions of the same - inevitably go this way. It is like a sexual version of Godwin's Law, with Maid or FATAL standing in for the Nazis.

Quote from: GrumpyReviews;636116However, internet discussions of sex - and RPG discussions of the same - inevitably go this way. It is like a sexual version of Godwin's Law, with Maid or FATAL standing in for the Nazis.

Not in my experience. Only when people are saying you can "just ignore the child sex parts" does this happen.

Sadly it seems like a whole lot of nerds are more than happy to condone and defend this sort of crap.

Quote from: jhkimIncidentally, there were no under-age characters in the two games I played. We chose the ages of our characters, which I believe is strictly by the rules. So while I agree that the book content is creepy, I don't think the same of all players of it.

Quote from: The Yann Waters;636093Right. The names and the ages are the only details which are never rolled for maid PCs: the players always decide those, and it wouldn't make sense for, say, a chainsmoking CIA agent from the random charts to be a preteen. The youngest maid I've seen in actual play was sixteen.

Just to be clear - I am not agreeing at all with Yann Waters here.  I was making a minor factual correction that the PC ages aren't hard-coded into the rules as Sacrosanct implies below.  That doesn't change the fact that the examples, illustrations, and tone of the game is absolutely creepy - and I think it should be socially condemned rather than being tolerated or ignored.  

Quote from: Sacrosanct;635958If you have to ignore or change the rules of a game to not make it about child sexploitation, than it's a fucked up game.  How can this not be obvious?

Oh wait, you've shown yourself to be a clear apologist for child sexploitation.  I can only hope that it's an internal fuckery in your head, and I hope to God that you haven't taken similar attitudes with children in real life.

I agree that the game is fucked up.  On the other hand, I know personally outside the Internet some people who play the game and have defended it.  I don't think they are monsters and wouldn't leap to any conclusions about their real life behavior.  That doesn't change that they're wrong.

Quote from: jhkim;636135Just to be clear - I am not agreeing at all with Yann Waters here.  I was making a minor factual correction that the PC ages aren't hard-coded into the rules as Sacrosanct implies below.  
.

Do you even read things before you reply any more?

Quote from: meThis doesn't help your case at all. Even if the players all chose adults, they still run into scenarios where they have to seduce young children. In what way is "A group of adult women (players) in a game full of sexual innuendos and scenarios needing to seduce a 13 year old boy." acceptable?

What part of that is me implying that the PC ages are hardcoded?  What I have said is that NPCs can, and will unless you ignore table results, be children.  And honestly, that almost makes it worse when the PCs are all adults needing to seduce a 13 year old boy.

Quote from: Piestrio;636099You really don't seem to understand.

I, and I'd hazard most normal people, don't want ANYTHING AT ALL to do with child sexploitation to be ANY PART of any entertainment product. EVER.

"doesn't necessarily lead to sex", "optional", "option", "can be glossed over" are not words that suddenly make child porn a-okay.

Saying you can just "ignore the pre-teen sexual part, it's totally optional" is several levels of fucked up.

Child porn isn't justifiable. However, gaming material has certainly dealt with such matters without raising any great outcry: for example, consider With a Long Spoon for Over the Edge.

But more to the point, mentioning children and sexuality in the same volume doesn't mean that the two will inevitably be connected. In this case, even treating seduction in a more explicit fashion and including a random underage character somewhere in the mansion doesn't somehow spontaneously link those two. Still, while Maid obviously tried to cover both the "child-like maid" character trope (or "young master" for that matter) and the naughtier aspects from the source material, as part of presenting any kind of anime maids, putting more distance between them couldn't have hurt, as these periodic arguments demonstrate. Adding a few years to various characters statted out in the book might have been a decent start.

Quote from: Sacrosanct;636102I'm here to tell you that making a 10 year old strip naked and suggestively ride a broomstick is in fact sexual assault.

A good thing, then, that no matter how many times you keep repeating this little claim, the simple fact of the matter is that Kana wasn't naked while sweeping.

Quote from: Sacrosanct;636102Is it not entirely possible, using RAW and not ignoring or changing any of them, to have the players in a situation where they have to, or are highly encouraged to from a mechanical sense, to seduce a young male child master?

In the same way that you could contrive a similar scene for any other RPG, yes. I can't think of many games where an unpleasant GM couldn't spring a scene like that on the PCs.

But first of all, those charts for randomly generating a master are from a later supplement and optional, and with the scenario-based playstyle, the master is whatever the GM deems appropriate for the scenario anyway: so there's never a "young male child master" in play unless the group deliberately put him there. Second, the seduction rules are also from a later supplement and optional, and more accurately relate to establishing relationships through "charm" than "sex". They even work on beings that aren't anatomically capable of sexual activities. And third, "Favour for Getting Physical" is specifically a "Let's Not Go There" option, as well.

RAW doesn't mean throwing together every potentially contradictory option that you can find. If you can't play through, say, "Happy Birthday!" without starting to think about ways to have sex with the master, then sorry, the problem isn't with the scenario.

Quote from: Sacrosanct;636102Even if the players all chose adults, they still run into scenarios where they have to seduce young children.  In what way is "A group of adult women (players) in a game full of sexual innuendos and scenarios needing to seduce a 13 year old boy." acceptable?

Again, the acceptability depends on what exactly the "seduction" involves. But keep in mind, that bit about "running into scenarios where they have to seduce young children" is still a non sequitur. That never happens unless the players make it so.

(The easiest solution? Don't play with creeps.)

Quote from: jeff37923;635923You know, everything I have written has explicitly said the following - "What you do in private is none of my business, but it becomes my business when it is done in public and claims to represent my hobby."

So does it matter to you if Maid, the Sexploitation is played in public and publicly proclaimed to be representative of the hobby?

I would not want to be associated with anyone involved with underage anything.

Quote from: The Yann Waters;636139A good thing, then, that no matter how many times you keep repeating this little claim, the simple fact of the matter is that Kana wasn't naked while sweeping.

Jesus fucking christ.

I'm beginning to suspect you DO understand and are just a fucking perv yourself.

Get help.

Quote from: Bill;636146I would not want to be associated with anyone involved with underage anything.

Bingo.

It's a pretty fucking low bar, "Hey, I know, let's not have game products that depict young children in sexualized situations" but god damned if this fucking hobby hasn't managed to squirm right under it :(

Quote from: Piestrio;636151Bingo.

It's a pretty fucking low bar, "Hey, I know, let's not have game products that depict young children in sexualized situations" but god damned if this fucking hobby hasn't managed to squirm right under it :(

How do you make that happen without giving these products attention that you don't want them to have?  I don't think I'd even heard of Maid until this thread, or maybe the Desborough one.

Quote from: Alathon;636152How do you make that happen without giving these products attention that you don't want them to have?  I don't think I'd even heard of Maid until this thread, or maybe the Desborough one.

I'm pretty disgusted that it apparently even needs to be discussed in the first place.

Quote from: Alathon;636152How do you make that happen without giving these products attention that you don't want them to have?  I don't think I'd even heard of Maid until this thread, or maybe the Desborough one.

It comes up periodically, usually in reference to a thread over at TBP.

Quote from: GrumpyReviews;636116I am not an apologist for any of them or what they do. Once I was a crime beat reporter and sex offenders and the damage they do was part of the job. I hated it.

Good, then step on over to this side of the line with me and the others.

Quote from: GrumpyReviews;636116However, internet discussions of sex - and RPG discussions of the same - inevitably go this way. It is like a sexual version of Godwin's Law, with Maid or FATAL standing in for the Nazis.

Rightly so, there can be no equivocation when it comes to pedophilia and where we stand on it.

Quote from: Piestrio;636156I'm pretty disgusted that it apparently even needs to be discussed in the first place.

I liked this thread better when it was strictly anecdotes from more or less normal people.  But we had to have fifty fucking posts of advertisements for that game instead.  What's that gained us other than a whole lot of justifications that don't pass the sniff test?  Where's our achievable victory condition in all this?

Quote from: Piestrio;636149I'm beginning to suspect you DO understand and are just a fucking perv yourself.

It's somewhat creepy that Kana's player chose to go with a transparent uniform, yes, even if it still has regular clothes underneath. And yes, tricking Kana with the broom was poor behaviour on the part of Rie's player. But that doesn't excuse repeatedly mangling up the story of what actually happened in the replay in the interest of spreading misinformation. I'm pretty sure that because of the recent Something Awful article, there are people out there who believe that Maid includes a Stress Explosion for pooping yourself to death, too.

Quote from: The Yann Waters;636166It's somewhat creepy that Kana's player chose to go with a transparent uniform, yes, even if it still has regular clothes underneath. And yes, tricking Kana with the broom was poor behaviour on the part of Rie's player. But that doesn't excuse repeatedly mangling up the story of what actually happened in the replay in the interest of spreading misinformation. I'm pretty sure that because of the recent Something Awful article, there are people out there who believe that Maid includes a Stress Explosion for pooping yourself to death, too.

"Somewhat creepy" I like that.

Yeah, it was somewhat creepy to do that in a game.

And then the author was "somewhat creepy" to write it up.

And then the translator was "somewhat creepy" to bring it over here.

And then the publisher was "somewhat creepy" to print it.

And stores are "somewhat creepy" to stock it.

And gamers are "somewhat creepy" to buy it.

And YOU are "somewhat creepy" to defend it.

Quote from: The Yann Waters;636166It's somewhat creepy that Kana's player chose to go with a transparent uniform, yes, even if it still has regular clothes underneath. And yes, tricking Kana with the broom was poor behaviour on the part of Rie's player. But that doesn't excuse repeatedly mangling up the story of what actually happened in the replay in the interest of spreading misinformation.

Dude, just stop and shift your perspective for a second.  Imagine 'Kana' is a real kid, and 'Rie' is her parent.  Imagine them explaining this event in court.  Is 'Rie' going to go to jail?  Now, stepping back from that, imagine 'Kana' is a real kid and 'Rie' is describing these situations to her in a chat room.  Same question.

It really is a simple-enough test.

Perhaps there are socioligical lessons to be learned about why we're more okay with killing baby kobolds than we are with 'humiliating' naked children with a broom stick, but the difference is clear and present.  If you're not aware of it, you're simply not paying attention.  And I'd add that if your kobold-baby-killing were detailed as an example of how to play the game (instead of just an oversight), you'd be in pretty morally murky water there, too.

While I support free speech, there are reasonable limits to which I adhere.  Put me on the intolerant side of the sand-line, please.

Quote from: Piestrio;636169Yeah, it was somewhat creepy to do that in a game.

It's the clothing underneath that matters. If we were talking about, for instance, clear plastic over bare skin, then yes, that would be pure fetish gear. But that's not the case here.

Besides, I grew up in the Finnish sauna culture. Nudity in itself doesn't automatically have sexual associations for me, and when it does, that may not necessarily be so noteworthy. Why do you think that, say, the Sex and the City movies are rated PG-13 over here?

Quote from: mcbobbo;636172Dude, just stop and shift your perspective for a second.  Imagine 'Kana' is a real kid, and 'Rie' is her parent.  Imagine them explaining this event in court.  Is 'Rie' going to go to jail?  Now, stepping back from that, imagine 'Kana' is a real kid and 'Rie' is describing these situations to her in a chat room.  Same question.

It really is a simple-enough test.

It's definitely the sort of thing that if I, as a teacher, encountered I would report to the state.

If students/parents were talking about it or it came up in writing somewhere I'd absolutely report it.

In fact if I found a copy of "Maid" on a student I'd very likely report it.

Keeping in mind that as a teacher I am legally required to report any suspicion of child abuse and children and adults creating and consuming "entertainment" depicting child abuse is a big red flag.

Quote from: The Yann Waters;636166It's somewhat creepy that Kana's player chose to go with a transparent uniform, yes, even if it still has regular clothes underneath. And yes, tricking Kana with the broom was poor behaviour on the part of Rie's player. But that doesn't excuse repeatedly mangling up the story of what actually happened in the replay in the interest of spreading misinformation.

I think the language of "somewhat creepy" and "poor behavior" are serious misinformation on this point.  "Fictional sexual assault of a 10-year-old and a 13-year-old for laughs" is accurate regardless of quibbles about whether Kana was naked or had on a transparent uniform.  

Then again, I still think that Hentacle is worse than this despite most of the girls being over-age, given that they are explicitly being raped for laughs.

Quote from: mcbobbo;636172While I support free speech, there are reasonable limits to which I adhere.  Put me on the intolerant side of the sand-line, please.

But what, exactly, are you advocating here?  That the book be banned?  That the publisher voluntarily pull it from the market?  

There are plenty of books in bad taste in lots of ways, not just RPGs.  I don't think anyone should support this product (based on what I know of it).  But beyond refusing to buy it or participate in a game, what else should you do?  

Nothing.  Absolutely nothing.  Ignore it.  

Because it is not illegal (even if distasteful), all you're doing is cementing in people's minds that these types of games are 'representative' of the RPG community.  Ignoring something distasteful is not tantamount to endorsing it or even tolerating it.  Let the fetishists take it to the corner of the internet far from the public and keep it there.  My understanding (though I have not validated it) that the internet has sites dedicated to every fetish you can imagine.  The fact that dinosaur porn exists (?) disturbs me a little, but I find it's easy to avoid if I don't go looking for it.  

I'd have never heard of Maid at all if it hadn't been for 'earnest opponents' evangelizing the base against it.  Never, before it was brought up by people explaining how disgusting it was (in relation to a Something Awful Comic I hadn't read) had it ever come up...  And I'm a committed, life-long gamer.  If it was so far off the radar of real gamers, then there's NO CHANCE that it will be cemented in the minds of non-gamers as indicative of the hobby.

The fact that the hobby has a bunch of negative stereotypes associated with it has nothing to do with games like Maid.  People who play D&D (any edition) have managed to build plenty of negative stereotypes of gamers before MAID was ever considered, let alone created.  

If you're worried about negative stereotypes associated with members of the hobby, don't worry about fetishest gamers - worry about establishing a positive image for yourself as a gamer.  If you're a 'model' of the good of the game, that will do more good for the image than any attempt to disassociate yourself with 'undesireable' elements.

Quote from: jhkim;636182I think the language of "somewhat creepy" and "poor behavior" are serious misinformation on this point.  "Fictional sexual assault of a 10-year-old and a 13-year-old for laughs" is accurate regardless of quibbles about whether Kana was naked or had on a transparent uniform.

The matter of the clothing in the replay is far more easily clarified than where the legal status of the events would fall in a given jurisdiction. After that, people can then go on to make up their own minds based on reasonably reliable information. Casual personal assessment of the players' behaviour doesn't really influence that.

(Actually, looking into the terminology right now, "sexual assault" is defined broadly enough that it would generally speaking fit Rie's actions. Of course, it also describes many, many commonplace situations in fiction.)

Quote from: deadDMwalking;636183But what, exactly, are you advocating here?

Wherever appropriate, indicate that you do not approve of it, and advise like-minded people to do the same.

Quote from: deadDMwalking;636183But beyond refusing to buy it or participate in a game, what else should you do?  

Nothing.  Absolutely nothing.  Ignore it.

"All that is required for evil to prevail is for good men to do nothing."

I'm not asking that someone go around burning books or engaging in any other action than countering unwanted speech with their own free speech.

Quote from: deadDMwalking;636183Because it is not illegal (even if distasteful), all you're doing is cementing in people's minds that these types of games are 'representative' of the RPG community.

That appears to be your opinion, though, and not any sort of measured fact.  It could well be that people witnessing a rejection of that particular product would see us alienating something that was not representitive.  And in fact, that would probably be more logical.

Are you really thinking that someone might interpret Sacrosant's posts, for example, as approval?

Quote from: deadDMwalking;636183If you're worried about negative stereotypes associated with members of the hobby, don't worry about fetishest gamers - worry about establishing a positive image for yourself as a gamer.  If you're a 'model' of the good of the game, that will do more good for the image than any attempt to disassociate yourself with 'undesireable' elements.

I view part of that good behavior to be doing the right thing when called upon to do so, even when inconvenient or uncomfortable.  I believe rejecting child abuse is one of those right things to do, RPG or not.

Just think if [imaginary thing] was [real thing]!

This is a pretty stupid argument, because the imaginary thing ISN'T the real thing.

Ceci n'est pas une pipe.

Here are the main characters from 2 of the 5 free scenarios.  But hey, just because scenarios like this exist, and are officially sanctioned by the authors, doesn't mean child sexploitation happens at all...:rolleyes:

Norrie (14 year old girl)
Ein (16 year old boy)

Late at night you discover Norrie in her bed, moaning
"No . . . I want to be with . . ." Was she going to call
someone's name?

"Today is your lucky day!" Ein gives into his urges and
forces himself on one of the maids



Kira-15 year old boy
Haru- 19 year old boy

On the first night Haru slipped into Kira-sama's room and got
intimate with him, so that they've now seduced each other.

Oh, and for complete transparency GrimGent you fucking pedo-apologist, here is the actual text from replay (essentially that how to play section, and notably the ONLY example to use).  Note the ages of the characters, and the creepy infatuation with pointing out how you can see the privates of a 10 year old girl (always bringing up transparent clothes)


TL:DR version: just look for the bolded bits

QuoteRie Shireda (Age 26)
Maid Type:
Sexy
Attributes:
Athletics 1, Affection 2, Skill 2, Cunning 4,
Luck 1, Will 0
Maid Special Qualities:
Evil Secret Society Member
(Leader), Likes Them Young
Maid Weapon:
Summoning (Monsters & Fighters)
Stress Explosion:
Teasing
Maid Power:
Trap
Profile:
Rie has a distinctly mature charm to her. She uses
her merits to get ahead and wields considerable influence.
However, she is weak-willed, and taking even a little bit of
damage will cause her to lose it and start tormenting the
other maids.

Tomoe Matsunaga (Age 20)
Maid Types:
Cool, Boyish
Attributes:
Athletics 4, Affection 0, Skill 3, Cunning 1,
Luck 2, Will 2
Maid Special Qualities:
Brown Skin, Cat Ears (Black)
Maid Weapon:
Metal Bat
Stress Explosion:
Crying
Maid Power:
Trespass
Profile:
A combat expert and paragon of pure love. This
dark-skinned, cat-eared maid fights with a metal bat, which
she uses to keep order as she wanders the mansion. No
one seems to really care about her cat ears.

Kana Kanae (Age 10)
Maid Types:
Lolita Heroine
Attributes:
Athletics 0, Affection 2, Skill 1, Cunning 1,
Luck 2, Will 3
Special Qualities:
Tights, Collar
Maid Weapon:
Mop
Stress Explosion:
Spoiled Child
Maid Power:
Hard Work
Profile:
The most servant-like of the characters this time
around. She has mostly low attributes, and because of
pressure from everyone around her she wears a transparent maid uniform (and with tights instead of a skirt no
less). [Note: the uniform AND tights are transparent.  I.e. a nude 10 year old girl]  During the game she winds up being not so much
the master’s servant as Rie’s.

GM:
Wow, those are some really amazing characters! What a
sight!
Tomoe:
Um, Mr. GM, I was hoping you’d bring it up first, but
what about our “master”? Don’t tell me that’s decided arbitrarily
too?
GM:
I’m not sure what you’re getting at. (rolls dice)
Tomoe:
Let’s have the master be female, and roll on this
table. (rolls more dice)
Rie:
Yeah, I like that idea!
Kana:
Me too. (Awww... Why see-through...?)
Tomoe:
Heh. Looks like we have a lot of opinions being forced
on you.
GM:
Gah! I see how it is, girls.
Tomoe:
Quick acting so high and mighty, and get rolling!
Three minutes later, the master is ready..

Lilith Origami (Age 13)
Types:
Pure Lolita
Attributes:
Average of 2 in everything. (Typical Master)
Special Qualities:
Shy, Sickly
Weapon:
Katana
Stress Explosion:
Violence
Profile:
Lilith is the direct descendant of the head of the
Origami Zaibatsu. She lives in a mansion on the edge of
town, surrounded by a trio of maids. Her body and spirit
are both weak, and she would be genuinely helpless with
-
out her maids. She has no idea how to deal with the out
-
side world, and stays inside her mansion. She doesn’t know
anyone apart from the maids and a few of her relatives.

Rie:
Yes! Another target!
Tomoe:
I really didn’t expect it to be so straightforward...
Lucky us.
Kana:
I think it’s too straightforward. I wanted her to be weirder
than me. I mean, I have a see-through uniform and tights...
GM, Who Will Hereafter Also Roleplay the Mis
-
tress, Lilith:
Um... N-Nice to meet you all. (nervous)
Rie:
Okay! Let’s get into the game! We’re here to torment... I
mean, serve you! (Heh)
Tomoe:
Just calm down, Rie. Why don’t we let the GM get
things moving? (smiles)
GM:
ANYWAY, let’s begin! The game takes place in the present
day, in a mansion on the outskirts of a city somewhere. That’s
where you live with Lilith Origami.
Somehow or other, the game is finally under way...
GM:
So, let’s start with the morning... Your first job is to wake
Lilith, though if you’d like you can get breakfast ready first

Rie:
In that case, I’ll be giving her a tender wake-up call!
Tomoe:
Hey, I want to be able to raise my attributes. I’m going to help too.
Kana:
Me too! I’m gonna help too!
GM:
Waking her up calls for an Affection roll, with a target
number of 8. She’s sleeping soundly in her covered bed.
Lilith:
Mmmm... (innocent sleeping sounds)
Tomoe:
(Affection roll, 0) Come on, young mistress, it’s time
to wake up.
Kana:
(Affection roll, 6) Um, young mistress, please wake up...
(She seems embarrassed at being seen by the other maid
in her see-through uniform. Lilith stirs and seems about to
wake up).
Rie:
(Affection roll, 12) Leave this to me. Young mistress... (She
cheerfully slips under the covers, and presses herself against
Lilith).  
GM:
Um. Well, since Rie got the highest result, she’s the one who
manages to wake her. Rie gets... 4 points of Favor. The rest of you
get Stress points equal to 12 divided by the attribute you used.
Kana:
Aww... That means I take 6 Stress...
Tomoe:
Hold on a minute! My Affection is 0! What the heck
happens?
GM:
Then you take 12 points of Stress. Besides, using Affection
was just a suggestion; usually you’ll want to try to use some
other attribute to find a good way to wake her up.
Tomoe:
Tell me that before, damn it! So, you mean I could’ve,
say, used Athletics to pull her out of bed instead?
GM:
Sure. Anyway, it seems she’s definitely awake now.
Lilith:
Aaah... Umm... What...? (She hurries to wake herself
up)
Rie:
Oh, you’re not getting away. (She chuckles as, under the
covers, she starts pulling off Lilith’s clothes, using Cunning)
GM:
And, apparently we’re on to the next task, dressing and
washing up the mistress? Does anyone want to step in?
Kana:
Um, not really. I’m scared of Rie, so I’ll go start making
breakfast. (Scurries out of the room).

Lilith:
Um... Aaah... Rie... St... Stop..

Rie:
Heheh. Come now, young mistress. You’re a growing girl; you
should be proud of your body. (She lays hands on Lilith’s pajamas
and undergarments, taking them off. Affection (?) result of 12).
Tomoe:
What do you think you’re doing?! (Swinging her bat at
the unrepentant Rie. Athletics result of 16).
Rie:
What?! Tomoe! Wh-What’re you doing to the young mistress! (While saying this, she uses her Cunning to try to keep
changing Lilith. Result of 12). Ack! (Takes 4 Stress)
GM:
Looks like Tomoe’s bat got a clean hit on Rie’s head.
Lilith:
Uh... Aaah... Stop... (covered in Rie’s gushing blood, she
starts to panic and jumps out of the bed)
Tomoe:
Are you alright, young mistress? (She holds the blood-
stained bat in one hand, and gently pats Lilith on the head
with the other to calm her down. Since her Affection is 0, the
result is, of course, also 0).
GM:
Well, it’s a good idea at least, but she’s just becoming more
scared. She’s shaking enough that Tomoe can feel it. (For the
good atmosphere earlier... normally Tomoe would get 2D6
Favor, but this time 1D6, which comes of as a 3).
Tomoe:
Sorry. Tomorrow I’ll make sure either I or Kana come
to wake you. (Realizing their mistake, she apologizes to
Lilith).
Lilith:
Uh... Um... But, that’s not the problem... (still shaking)
Rie:
Just remember, you’ve now angered Death Shocker’s Chief
of Nightmares . You will come to regret it. (Grinding her teeth
as she storms out of the room).
GM:
Now you’re just making up an organization by yourself...
Tomoe:
Now, young mistress, let’s get you dressed for today...
(She ignores Rie, and goes about quickly, efficiently dressing
Lilith and washing her face. Skill result of 8).
Lilith:
Um, thank you, Tomoe-san. (Tomoe gets 6 more Favor,
for a total of 9).
Later, in the kitchen...
Kana:
Okay, since there’s not much time I’ll make an open-
faced sandwich and iced tea. (Though she’s clumsy, she uses
her Hard Work power to prepare the food; her result is 3,
plus 3 is 6)
GM:
I see, not bad. At the very least, it won’t make the young
mistress mad.

Kana:
Okay. I’ll make enough for everyone and take it out to
the terrace. (She wobbles a bit as she carefully carries the
tray of food down the hallway).
Rie:
(Since she has a Spirit of 0, she’s having a Stress Explo
-
sion) ... (She quietly sticks her leg out to trip Kana, and gets
a Cunning result of 12).
Kana:
Aaah! (She trips, and tries to stop herself. Will result of
3, so she takes 4 Stress).
GM:
Kana tries to stop herself, but the food she made for every
-
one winds up scattered all over the hallway. It’s pretty impres
-
sive, really. The sandwiches are splattered with iced tea too.
Rie:
Oh my. You’ve really made a mess of this hallway. Kana, are
you really a maid?
Kana:
Aaah... The breakfast I made for everyone... (She’s about
to cry, as she takes in the scene of the ruined breakfast).
Rie:
Hey! Quit gawking and clean this up! (Grabbing at Kana’s
bottom through the see-through maid uniform).
Kana:
Aah... Uh... O-Okay... (Crying, she picks up her Maid
Weapon, a mop, and starts to clean up).
Rie:
You’re not very good at cleaning, are you? You really have
to learn, right? (So saying, she instructs Kana incorrectly. Cun
-
ning result of 24).
Kana:
L-Like this...? (She poses like a witch riding a broom. Rie is
teaching her how to clean with the mop between her legs. Since
the player knows she can’t win, Kana accepts this). Um... Uh... L-
Like this? (As for what’s going on here, we’ll leave it to the reader’s
imagination).

Rie:
Exactly... Heehee. Perfect. (She laughs as she stares at
Kana’s foolishness).
The events of the next two minutes of gameplay
should not be printed here...
Tomoe:
Apparently I’m the only one who takes being a maid
seriously. And I have cat ears.
GM:
Jeez. That was a bit too... perverted...
Rie:
Well, I had a Stress Explosion, after all. I have to go pick on
someone. The 4 minutes are up though, right? My Stress is
all gone! Okay, I think I’ll go make some breakfast in Kana’s
place.
Tomoe:
Wo w .
Kana:
You’re mean. Is that the only reason why you did that...?
Rie:
Okay. My Skill is 3, and I’ve got a result of 9 for making
breakfast. I’ll make broiled fish, rice, and miso soup! Oh, and
of course I’ll sit next to the young mistress! (Humming to
herself as she heads for the dining room).
GM:
She’s really... amazing.
Kana:
Ummm... ah... (Though still doing that embarrassing
cleaning, she decides to try for a counterattack. She lets her
-
self fall down, trying to knock down her adversary. Luck result
of 10).
Rie:
(She sees it coming, and lifts up the uncomfortably located
mop. Cunning result of 16). ? (Still humming, she continues
on her way).
Kana:
Eeeek! (Our see-through loli maid takes 8 Stress and is
laid out on the floor).
(Anyway, that’s breakfast. But before that, Rie pulls off Kana’s tights
and underwear. Her attire was already shall we say questionable, but according to the maid uniform/disrobing rules she now
takes a -2 penalty to all her actions. Kana’s really in trouble).
Tomoe:
...Maybe I should use my Tresspass power?
Kana:
I’m okay... Ugh... (Though not wearing anything on her
bottom, she lets herself be led to eat breakfast).
Lilith:
Um, Kana? Are you okay? (worried)
Rie:
(She’s received 3 Favor for breakfast. She mocks Kana). No,
don’t worry. That’s normal for her; she’s always dressed like that,
no matter who’s around. (She chuckles, and gets a Cunning result
of 8)

...

Thanks, Sacrosanct.  Just what I was about to do.

I'm not kidding when I say that's some amazing free advertisement you just did there, Sacrosanct.

Quote from: Sacrosanct;636214Norrie (14 year old girl)
Ein (16 year old boy)

Late at night you discover Norrie in her bed, moaning
“No . . . I want to be with . . .” Was she going to call
someone’s name?

“Today is your lucky day!” Ein gives into his urges and
forces himself on one of the maids

I'm... not sure what's supposed to wrong with the first random event. Calling out in your sleep the name of someone that you have a crush on doesn't sound like "sexploitation" at all. And in the second event, the maid will promptly beat Ein up because he's pathetic. Unless the PCs manage to "reform" him, he's played as a "silly and annoying" comic relief whose stats aren't a match for even the weakest maids.

Quote from: Sacrosanct;636214Kira-15 year old boy
Haru- 19 year old boy

On the first night Haru slipped into Kira-sama’s room and got
intimate with him, so that they’ve now seduced each other.

Just a small correction: Haru is, in fact, a girl disguised as Kira's butler.

Oh, and thanks for the excerpt from the book. Even if the text's been altered since then, accuracy on what it was like before can only help. (Although you're still incorrect about Kana looking nude: there's a picture of her that shows the undergarments.)

You are gross and I think less of you everytime you post.

Quote from: mcbobbo;636197I view part of that good behavior to be doing the right thing when called upon to do so, even when inconvenient or uncomfortable.  I believe rejecting child abuse is one of those right things to do, RPG or not.

I agree.  But nobody in this thread is rejecting child abuse (though I can see why they might think they are).  Talking about the game in the context of gamers and RPGs simply cements that this is an RPG in the mind of gamers.  A headline like 'majority of gamers reject child abuse' is actually bad for our hobby.  Not as bad as 'majority of gamers approve of child abuse', but the first headline implies that the subject might be surprising, or that the minority view is pretty common.  Take the headline 'majority of Muslims disapprove of terror attacks' - it's not good to have the word Muslim and Terror Attack in the same headline, regardless of context.  The same is true with gamers and pedophiles.  By engaging, you lead credence to the theory that this is widespread enough issue to deserve engagement.  And that MIGHT be good if you had any chance of success...  But what is success?  Saying 'I'm on the side that is against pedophilia?'  

I think we're all on that side.  I know I am.  

Quote from: Sacrosanct;636214Here are the main characters from 2 of the 5 free scenarios.  But hey, just because scenarios like this exist, and are officially sanctioned by the authors, doesn't mean child sexploitation happens at all...:rolleyes:

Norrie (14 year old girl)
Ein (16 year old boy)

Late at night you discover Norrie in her bed, moaning
"No . . . I want to be with . . ." Was she going to call
someone's name?

"Today is your lucky day!" Ein gives into his urges and
forces himself on one of the maids



Kira-15 year old boy
Haru- 19 year old boy

On the first night Haru slipped into Kira-sama's room and got
intimate with him, so that they've now seduced each other.

I'm not trying to defend Maid (which I've never played and don't intend to).  Please recognize, however, that in Japan, the age of consent is 13!!!!  That seems pretty abhorrent to me.  But if the game was released for the Japanese market and cultural norms make that acceptable (outside of force, intimidation or coercion), I'm not going to automatically condemn it.  If I were a statesman, I'd recommend that they review that policy very carefully - I don't know any 13 years old enough that are mature enough to handle a sexual relationship whether with another teenager or an adult (especially not an adult!).  But if the game really is a translation of a game that exists in a different culture, even if it is OBJECTIVELY MORALLY REPREHENSIBLE, you've got a hard sell to make a moral panic.  Moral Relativism is rampant in the United States, especially among younger populations.  

Given the proposed defense that 'seduction' is a general name for 'charm' combined with the idea that stories and literary sources can deal with dark themes (I gave up on Game of Thrones, but Child Rape features pretty prominently), a game can include unpleasant elements without necessarily PROMOTING them.  To argue that this game necessarily promotes those values, especially in real life, seems a stretch.  

Don't play the game.  Don't associate with people that you know that play the game.  And stop promoting the game by vociferously attacking it - you simply draw attention to the game, creating the opposite of your intention.  

If you're interested in convincing non-gamers that 'real' gamers aren't interested in games like Maid, you'd be best off making that point in a forum that includes non-gamers.  Since your audience is all fellow-gamers, stop bringing it to their attention.  You're advertising (via word of mouth), and possibly encouraging elements of your hobby to 'fly that flag'.  

Hell, if Stormbringer were to jump in this thread saying 'nobody should play this game', I'd be tempted to for the sole purpose of spiting him.  I like to disagree with Stormbringer on principle, you know.  (Though Storm, don't feel compelled - I've already made it clear that I have no interest in the game).

Quote from: deadDMwalking;636226But if the game really is a translation of a game that exists in a different culture, even if it is OBJECTIVELY MORALLY REPREHENSIBLE, you've got a hard sell to make a moral panic.  Moral Relativism is rampant in the United States, especially among younger populations.

To quote the translator's afterword:

"Maid RPG is rooted in the maid fetish of Japanese otaku culture, and otaku culture has this powerful transgressive side. In a sense, the fact that this game can make a lot of people uncomfortable means it's living up to its premise. In the replays included, the players have their characters get into all kinds of inappropriate romantic entanglements, and girl-on-girl action is just the tip of the iceberg. Although to someone who knows the Japanese version of the tabletop RPG hobby well enough it shows some of the distinctive features of that style, overall it's far from typical. There may well be vending machines that dispense panties in Japan, but the other 99.9% of them are for beverages. In short, it's not just you. Maid RPG is weird in Japan too."

Quote from: deadDMwalking;636226Please recognize, however, that in Japan, the age of consent is 13!!!!

2 things.  Firstly, there have been laws in place that override that age of consent, such as:

QuoteArticle 34 of the Child Welfare Law
" Any person shall not do any of the following acts : …(6) act of inducing a minor to be engaged in
sexual activities … "
Inducing a minor who is less than eighteen (18) to be engaged in sexual activities is subject to
punishment under the Child Welfare Law. According to Japanese Court cases, " inducing a minor to
be engaged in sexual activities means an act of working on a minor to have intercourse or analogous
conducts ( including oral and anal sex) with him or her, or with someone else by exering influence on
the minor virually.

And secondly, even if 13 was the "OK Age folks!", as we've been repeatedly pointing out, just because it happens in Japan is not an excuse for people in a western culture to think it's OK.  It's OK to murder young girls in certain Middle Eastern countries for being raped, but that in no way means that role playing out scenarios where you're raping and murdering little girls because they "wronged your honor" or whatever is OK.

This is not that difficult people.

QuoteGiven the proposed defense that 'seduction' is a general name for 'charm' combined with the idea that stories and literary sources can deal with dark themes (I gave up on Game of Thrones, but Child Rape features pretty prominently), a game can include unpleasant elements without necessarily PROMOTING them. To argue that this game necessarily promotes those values, especially in real life, seems a stretch.

Dude, it says right there in black and white that they were intimate.  How much clearer can the use of the word "seduce" mean?  And again that is the example, the only example in that chapter on how the game is played.  This is not a plot device.

Jesus, you're starting to sound an awful lot like Grimgent in the level of bending over backwards to defends this vile shit.

Quote from: Alathon;636220I'm not kidding when I say that's some amazing free advertisement you just did there, Sacrosanct.

For who?  That shit up there is pretty fucking disgusting.  Do you really think more people will buy the game now instead being turned off by complicit attitude towards child sexploitation?

If that's the case, then there are a lot more fucked up people in our hobby than I thought.

I think its been shown without doubt that Miad is a very pervvy game.

That said, the crux of most of the debate on this thread seems to be "I don't want this game associated with the RPG hobby because that implies an association to myself"

which is a sentiment I have a very hard time taking seriously because, quite simply, I don't give a crap what people think of the hobby. People are morons. I have no respect for their opinion at all. Its not how I define my sense of self worth. And I certainly don't look ta RPGs as a part of my identity. I was not deterred one iota from playing RPGs when the masses thought RPGs were occult indoctrination devices that corrupted youth and caused suicides. I have not been deterred as public opinion has switched to viewing RPGs as the pass-time of basement dwelling socially inept nerds. If , by xsome bizarre twist of fate (and lets be honest, thats what it would take), the public masses began to identify roleplayers with some game besides D&D, and by some extremely unlikely occurance that game was something like Maid, then I still wouldn't give a crap and continue to play what I like.

Quote from: Sacrosanct;636241It's OK to murder young girls in certain Middle Eastern countries for being raped, but that in no way means that role playing out scenarios where you're raping and murdering little girls because they "wronged your honor" or whatever is OK.

This is where a fine line needs to be drawn.  The fact that a game deals with mature themes doesn't necessarily make the game bad/wrong/fun.  If you're playing a modern game set in Afghanistan and you're taking on a character with a different perspective than you have in real life, it doesn't mean that you're automatically a bad person.  Gaming can be used to explore some pretty traumatic events in a relatively 'safe' environment - sometimes it's used by licensed therapists for dealing with PTSD and such.  

If you play a fantasy game and you take the side of the villains and burn a town to the ground, it can be fun.  It's not for me, but I'm not going to say that it's abhorrent.  It's a game.  Presumably the players that do that in a game aren't inclined or interested in doing so in real life.  

If a player is fulfilling sexual fantasies with the RPG, that's pretty disgusting and not something I'd want to be part of.  Outside of that, pretty much anything is fair game as long as it makes sense for the setting and the participants.

My games are pretty close to a PG-13 at their most grim.  The death or suffering of children is pretty much not going to be featured in my games, even if it makes sense - at least not in a major way.  Sometimes, the PCs might meet an orphan, but it's more Indiana Jone's sidekick Short Round than a teenager turning tricks on the corner to get enough money to eat.  That's me, though.  If you have teen prostitutes in your games, that's not necessarily wrong - that's reality.  I favor escapist fantasy, but let's recognize that Gaming is a 'big tent' - and since you can write a story that has bad things happen (like Game of Thrones) you can play an RPG where bad things happen (like Game of Thrones) without being a sick fuck.  

Now, I don't disagree that a game like Maid probably has a higher percentage of sick fucks playing than other games.  And it can be a bad/unpleasant game.  But giving it any attention at all just encourages it to propagate.  No exposure = lower sales.  Lower sales = fewer similar releases.  Fewer similar releases = companies like this going out of business.  Ignoring it leads to it going away.  Paying attention to it encourages it's existence.  It's like feeding the trolls.  Don't do it.  

Quote from: TristramEvans;636244I think its been shown without doubt that Miad is a very pervvy game.

That said, the crux of most of the debate on this thread seems to be "I don't want this game associated with the RPG hobby because that implies an association to myself"

Regardless of opinion of 'people', I do think trying to convince 'the world' that gamers who like 'Maid' are not like the gamers who like D&D is a pointless exercise.  People who aren't into RPGs aren't familiar enough with the different games to even have registered a tiny niche game like Maid.  The number of people who recognize Dungeons & Dragons is distressingly small, especially compared to games like 'World of Warcraft'.  A fraction of a fraction could even grasp the need for a distinction because people DON'T associate RPGs with games like Maid.

Quote from: deadDMwalking;636226I'm not trying to defend Maid (which I've never played and don't intend to).  Please recognize, however, that in Japan, the age of consent is 13!!!!

One part of Japan's federal penal code refers to the age of 13, and its sat there since WWII. There is also the Child Welfare Act that protects children from corrupting influences, and that has default definitions of age for specific purposes (marriage, etc) - but all definitions are higher than 13.

However prefectural law in this case overrides that code, most cases to the age of 16 (girls) or 18 (boys).

Governmental change is extremely slow in Japan, for a variety of reasons. Japanese people are not happy with it - many are resigned to it.

Child sexploitation should never be ignored.  That's how these sick fucks got this far in the first place.


The very fact that so many people are OK with people rolepaying out child sex scenarios as long as it's not in the open or with "real kids" is infuriating as much as it's depressing.

Quote from: Sacrosanct;636241Dude, it says right there in black and white that they were intimate.  How much clearer can the use of the word "seduce" mean?  And again that is the example, the only example in that chapter on how the game is played.  This is not a plot device.
.

I'm pretty sure you missed what he was saying, which was that because those elements exist in the game doesn't mean they are influencing real life behaviour. I don't think anyones arguing that isnt how the game is played.

Quote from: Sacrosanct;636255Child sexploitation should never be ignored.  That's how these sick fucks got this far in the first place.

The very fact that so many people are OK with people rolepaying out child sex scenarios as long as it's not in the open or with "real kids" is infuriating as much as it's depressing.

Because roleplaying isnt real. Jesus. If one cant understand that, then they really should stay the hell away from RPGs and seek some professional help. and for the love of god stay away from steam tunnels.

Yeah, its a sick and depraved fantasy I want nothing to do with, but we're not talking about actual acts. No crimes are being committed, no children are being exploited, nothing is happening outside of a few people's imaginations.

Which is why I cant muster up any real outrage here.

Skarka's Law in progress.

Of course, more amusingly, Skarka has recently been using his own law, but hey.

Quote from: Sacrosanct;636255Child sexploitation should never be ignored.  That's how these sick fucks got this far in the first place.


The very fact that so many people are OK with people rolepaying out child sex scenarios as long as it's not in the open or with "real kids" is infuriating as much as it's depressing.

How do you stop people from imagining?

Quote from: TristramEvans;636275Because roleplaying isnt real. Jesus. If one cant understand that, then they really should stay the hell away from RPGs and seek some professional help. and for the love of god stay away from steam tunnels.

Yeah, its a sick and depraved fantasy I want nothing to do with, but we're not talking about actual acts. No crimes are being committed, no children are being exploited, nothing is happening outside of a few people's imaginations.

Which is why I cant muster up any real outrage here.

Question.  Are you perfectly OK with realistic CGI child porn?  I mean, no real kids are getting hurt right?  So it should be just as accessible as regular porn, right?

Quote from: Nexus;636286How do you stop people from imagining?

You can't stop people from imagining, but that was never the goal, right?  At least I never claimed as such.  Be we can stop people from thinking that roleplaying child sexual assault is OK and we can help stop them from creating games to cater to that depravity.

I'll close the thread if it continues on this route.

We have a storied tradition of stamping on pedo discussion and i personally don't want to ruin that tradition.

IBTL!   ;)

I'm not going to bother reading 25 pages of thread but add my 2 cents worth.

Generally I avoid the subject of sex in RPGs.  Not particularly coz of prudishness, more I just wanna enjoy running or playing adventures, not hitting on make believe people..

Quote from: Sacrosanct;636289Question.  Are you perfectly OK with realistic CGI child porn?  I mean, no real kids are getting hurt right?  So it should be just as accessible as regular porn, right?

I'm not okay with it, no. But I don't think its a criminal act.

That doesn't lead to "should be as accessible as regular porn" though. There's lots of kinky porn I am okay with that isn't as accessible as regular porn. Because it doesnt appeal to a regular audience.

Quote from: One Horse Town;636291I'll close the thread if it continues on this route.

We have a storied tradition of stamping on pedo discussion and i personally don't want to ruin that tradition.

Fair enough. I don't think its possible to discuss Maid without discussing pedophilia, but  I'm okay with discussing neither. No fun to be had there.

Quote from: Piestrio;636083I'm beginning the think the whole "You don't need to be ashamed of what you like! Let your geek flag fly!" might have been a bad idea.

It just sent a message to all the creepers that they could come join our parade.

It seems to be happening with more and more fandoms. Furries, Anime, Ponies, etc...

Nudists...

Quote from: TristramEvans;636296I don't think its possible to discuss Maid without discussing pedophilia, but  I'm okay with discussing neither.

Of course it is. For example, a popular manga called Kuroshitsuji (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kuroshitsuji), about an aristocratic twelve-year-old boy, his impossibly perfect demon butler, and their household (the only female member of which is a teenage maid, unless you count the boy's fiancee), is currently being translated into Finnish. That would work without any hitches as a Maid scenario.

It's been several times now I've seen posters here intimate that anime child porn is a-okay because real children weren't harmed drawing it.

This is wrong, and they should think real hard about what they're actually condoning with this.

And you know what? I'll close this thread myself.