Quote from: Sacrosanct;635754Quite frankly, it is more than just a little alarming that so many people in our hobby (at least the ones on the forums), are totally cool with child exploitation or sexualization, or even think it's awesome, because "Hey, Manga!  I'm not creepy!  It's Japanese!"  

I've felt for a while now that the next wave of RPG paranoia won't come from the Satanic Cult crowd, because the general public kind of shrugs about that these days.  (A portion of the Christian subculture, on the other hand, is quite different here.)

However, child exploitation is where I expect the lid to blow off of the Geek/Nerd subculture.  There's too much out there freebasing without enough people shouting it down --like Edward Kramer at DragonCon-- for this not to explode in a big way.

Quote from: flyerfan1991;635761However, child exploitation is where I expect the lid to blow off of the Geek/Nerd subculture.  There's too much out there freebasing without enough people shouting it down --like Edward Kramer at DragonCon-- for this not to explode in a big way.

I think that this is a really good point to mull over.

I know that I am old enough to have a daughter in her early twenties. How many other gamers have grown up and now have kids of their own? The composition of tabletop role-playing gamers has changed over the past few decades and so have many of the attitudes. Best to acknowledge that.

Quote from: jeff37923;635765I think that this is a really good point to mull over.

I know that I am old enough to have a daughter in her early twenties. How many other gamers have grown up and now have kids of their own? The composition of tabletop role-playing gamers has changed over the past few decades and so have many of the attitudes. Best to acknowledge that.

I have an 11 year old and a 22 (as of yesterday) year old.  This tacit approval of child sexploitation is seriously fucked up.

For example, let's look at a passage from Maid:

2 Maids, Rei is 26 years old with "Like 'em Young" and Kana is a 10 year old.  Here's what the book says about the 10 year old

Quote from: maidShe has mostly low attributes, and because of pressure from everyone around her she wears a transparent maid uniform (and with tights instead of a skirt no less).

And here is there example of how to play the game:

Quote from: maidRie: You're not very good at cleaning, are you? You really have to learn, right? (So saying, she instructs Kana incorrectly. Cunning result of 24).

Kana: L-like this...? (She poses like a witch riding a broom. Rie is teaching her how to clean with the mop between her legs. Since the player knows she can't win, Kana accepts this). Um... Uh... L-like this? (As for what's going on here, we'll leave it to the reader's imagination).

...

(But before that, Rie pulls off Kana's tights and underwear. Her attire was already shall we say questionable, but according to the maid uniform/disrobing rules she now takes a -2 penalty to all her actions. Kana's really in trouble).

Tomoe: ...Maybe I should use my Tresspass power?

Kana: I'm okay... Urgh... (Though not wearing anything on her bottom, she lets herself be led to eat breakfast).

And you have a conversation like this one, where it's filled with people who not only think that stuff isn't creepy as fuck, but actually LIKE it.  Dozens of posters who say, "It's a great game, just ignore those parts if you don't like it."

I'm sorry, but a game that specifically tells you it's for 16 years or older players to play, and focuses on playing 9-15 year old girls (as reinforced by the artwork), and has the above an example of how to play it, you can't ignore that.  You shouldn't ignore it.  It's disgusting.  That's a 10 year old girl they are describing as being exploited up there.

And if I needed another reason to think Lizard is screwed up, I need look no further than his comment in that thread about the game

Quote from: LizardI found it charming and funny, and not at all creepy.

What
The
Fuck

Quote from: Sacrosanct;635766I have an 11 year old and a 22 (as of yesterday) year old.  This tacit approval of child sexploitation is seriously fucked up.

For example, let's look at a passage from Maid:

2 Maids, Rei is 26 years old with "Like 'em Young" and Kana is a 10 year old.  Here's what the book says about the 10 year old



And here is there example of how to play the game:



And you have a conversation like this one, where it's filled with people who not only think that stuff isn't creepy as fuck, but actually LIKE it.  Dozens of posters who say, "It's a great game, just ignore those parts if you don't like it."

I'm sorry, but a game that specifically tells you it's for 16 years or older players to play, and focuses on playing 9-15 year old girls (as reinforced by the artwork), and has the above an example of how to play it, you can't ignore that.  You shouldn't ignore it.  It's disgusting.  That's a 10 year old girl they are describing as being exploited up there.

And if I needed another reason to think Lizard is screwed up, I need look no further than his comment in that thread about the game



What
The
Fuck

Jesus H. Christ :eek:

Quote from: Piestrio;635767Jesus H. Christ :eek:

Are people only now beginning to see why we find this game so fucked up that we do not want it representing our hobby?

Quote from: jeff37923;635768Are people only now beginning to see why we find this game so fucked up that we do not want it representing our hobby?

I knew it was fucked up but not... that fucked up.

Quote from: Piestrio;635770I knew it was fucked up but not... that fucked up.

I hope I didn't offend then. It is just that we have been talking about this game and others like it that we found had questionable game play for almost 5 years now.

I'm not defending Maid nor am I an apologist, but please realize, this game does not represent our hobby. It simply exists in it. I'm not condoning the content, but exclaiming "we can't allow this to represent our hobby!" loudly with pitchforks in hand is a tad hyperbolic.

Don't worry. Maid will never reach the audience that D&D and now Pathfinder has. Then toss in FFG, Mongoose, SJGames, and White Wolf and any potential buzz about the "Manga Pedophilia BDSM Game" could barely make a mark in a populace that still doesn't give a shit about what us geeks are rolling dice over.

Don't panic.

Quote from: trechriron;635799I'm not defending Maid nor am I an apologist, but please realize, this game does not represent our hobby. It simply exists in it. I'm not condoning the content, but exclaiming "we can't allow this to represent our hobby!" loudly with pitchforks in hand is a tad hyperbolic.

Don't worry. Maid will never reach the audience that D&D and now Pathfinder has. Then toss in FFG, Mongoose, SJGames, and White Wolf and any potential buzz about the "Manga Pedophilia BDSM Game" could barely make a mark in a populace that still doesn't give a shit about what us geeks are rolling dice over.

Don't panic.

Hyperbolic? No.

There is this belief that we tabletop gamers exist in isolation with our hobby away from the rest of the world and that just is not the case. Is our hobby in the world spotlight? No, and with a manga paedophilia wink-wink game like Maid in existance, that is a good thing because the backlash over it would be deafening.

Someone wants to play this in private, they can knock themselves out. I don't want it seen played in public or claimed to represent the mainstream of tabletop RPGs.

I currently live in a  city where they've opened up Tokyo-style "maid bars". I'd never heard of these before, but as explained by a friend who spent a lot of time in Japan, apparently its young asian girls dressed as french maids who basically dote on the socially inept male customers like they actually were their house slaves.

Sometimes I'm very glad to be born into Western culture.

Quote from: TristramEvans;635861I currently live in a  city where they've opened up Tokyo-style "maid bars". I'd never heard of these before, but as explained by a friend who spent a lot of time in Japan, apparently its young asian girls dressed as french maids who basically dote on the socially inept male customers like they actually were their house slaves.

Sometimes I'm very glad to be born into Western culture.

Unlike most Anime obsessed nerds in the Americas I've been to Akihabara and quite frankly it was embarrassing.

I didn't post any pictures from there on my Facebook.

Quote from: flyerfan1991;635748Where did you play it in public?  At an FLGS, or at a place like a library?

The university lawn, on a summer afternoon. We essentially played the "Happy Birthday!" scenario with Lilith Origami from that "Mansion of Madness" replay as the master, sticking to the basic rules. The short version: the master is a shy kid whose upcoming birthday isn't remembered by anyone except her loyal maids, who decide to scrounge up the best decorations, cakes, and presents that they can for a surprise party.

Quote from: Sacrosanct;635766I'm sorry, but a game that specifically tells you it's for 16 years or older players to play, and focuses on playing 9-15 year old girls (as reinforced by the artwork), and has the above an example of how to play it, you can't ignore that.  You shouldn't ignore it.  It's disgusting.  That's a 10 year old girl they are describing as being exploited up there.

The way in which Rie bullies Kana (and more discreetly, their master) in the replay admittedly is the most problematic part of the original book. That would be why, after the complaints in the RPGnet thread, Andy K decided that the translation wasn't "localized" enough, and from what I understand, the English version hasn't included those paragraphs since then.

As for the assumed ages, you already mentioned that Rie is 26, and the third maid who tries to keep her in check, Tomoe, is 20. More commonly in the book's replays and scenarios it's the masters who are underage, and using the random chargen charts may leave the PCs serving a two-year-old.

After checking the write-ups for the maids in the two other replays:

In "Are the Maids Burning?", Gerda is 25, while Lamia appears 19 and Mare 27. (The last two are a vampire and a demon, respectively, so might be older than they look.) Their master, Ises, is 11.

In "Maids at the End of the World", Nana is 10 and Jill appears 11. (Jill is a robot built with a child-like chassis, and Nana an elf clone cyborg, which might lead to further weirdness with aging.) Their master, Masami Onji, is 22.

Quote from: Sacrosanct;635674I'm afraid you just aren't getting it Grim.  This is a small hobby.  A community rather.  Yes, it very much impacts every single one of us when you have players who enjoy FATAL, Maid, etc.  Especially when those players see no issue with it being played right there in "the open" like it's no big deal.

Now, I imagine you might be thinking, "I shouldn't have to feel ashamed for playing the game I like in public.", and my answer to that is, "When that game involves sexual assault and seduction of minors, you're goddamn right you should feel ashamed at the very least."

I am sooooooooo fucking tired of people looking at me like I'm some sort of creeper when they find out I'm a gamer because all they've heard is the controversy around games like the above.  And make no mistake, it's the controversial games that get all the publicity, just like everything else.

So yeah, it is my best interests as a gamer, and it does affect me directly as a gamer, when games like those are enjoyed publicly.  I have always supported your right to create whatever product you want as long as it's legal, but don't for one minute act like you're not having a negative impact to the rest of us around you.

The right thing to do when people come at you with that shit is to come back with "so you quit watching movies after Irreversible was released, right?".  'course, the situation doesn't always allow for that, but I don't think trying to hedge people out of the hobby who generate controversy is an answer I'm willing to be part of.

Quote from: The Yann Waters;635887The way in which Rie bullies Kana (and more discreetly, their master) in the replay admittedly is the most problematic part of the original book. That would be why, after the complaints in the RPGnet thread, Andy K decided that the translation wasn't "localized" enough, and from what I understand, the English version hasn't included those paragraphs since then.
.

Even if you take that example, out, it's still fucking disgusting because the game still comes down to essentially "Take an adult and role-play out scenarios where children are sexploited."  The whole thing is just full of wonderful scenarios involving children and involving sex.  Perversion traits?

The level of apologism is fucked up.  And don't give me that shit about "Like 'em Young" meaning a 15 year old liking a 13 year old, or a 40 year old liking a 20 year old.  The game clearly puts it into a context of an adult liking a preteen.

I'd like to know where the social brigade is on this one.  They went to town against Golarian, but are oddly quiet on this.  Where you at Ettin?  JDCorely?  Halloween Jack?  Kai?  Oddly enough, Kai posted in that thread.  And while I didn't see him explicitly support the game, it's pretty implied that he doesn't have a problem with it either.  What?  Historically accurate portrayal of a Zulu warrior is an unforgivable sin, but role-playing out a 12 year old girl taking off her clothes rubbing her preteen boobs and fake crying is A-OK?

Sick fucks.  The lot of you.

Quote from: Sacrosanct;635674I'm afraid you just aren't getting it Grim.  This is a small hobby.  A community rather.  Yes, it very much impacts every single one of us when you have players who enjoy FATAL, Maid, etc.  Especially when those players see no issue with it being played right there in "the open" like it's no big deal.

Yeah....this isn't a community. I mean, there may be small online RPG "communities", but role players as a whole? No. Nothing of the sort. The vast populace still has no idea what RPGs are, and so all they "see" of public games is a bunch of weird guys sitting around in public saying bizarre thinsg and playing make pretend with odd dice. That stigma isnt going to go away. Maybe if RPgs had developed decades beforehand and had the chance to make it into everyday culture, but with the advent of videogames they are going to become quickly and quickly more archaic, a specialty hobby that appeals only to a select few. but I don't think games like MAID are ever going to colour perceptions one way or another. I mean, you pretty much have to already be into RPGs to have even heard of the game. Its not like housewives make regular stops into the LGs to check out what all the teen weirdos in town are into. Those games are never going to show up in a mass bookstore (which are pretty much on their way out themselves).


Not that I'm defending a game like Maid, because...well, "grody" is the only adjective I can think of, but I also think its about as harmful as Fantagraphix comics or mail-order straight to video slasher-porn.