Quote from: GRIM;635612Gaming is not a monolith and even if it were, some people would really need to touch it.

I was in agreement with you up to this sentence.

What are you suggesting here? That if someone finds something disagreeable, that it should be shoved in their face?

I ask because what I am talking about is the public play of games that may turn people away from the hobby or severely curtail their interest in the hobby. FATAL and Poison'd being played in public and the posted about online really don't help to attract new Players - they instead have made those games into the laughingstock. If people want to play them in private, that is fine - I just don't want them held up as representative of the majority of the hobby.

Quote from: jeff37923;635648I was in agreement with you up to this sentence.

What are you suggesting here? That if someone finds something disagreeable, that it should be shoved in their face?

I ask because what I am talking about is the public play of games that may turn people away from the hobby or severely curtail their interest in the hobby. FATAL and Poison'd being played in public and the posted about online really don't help to attract new Players - they instead have made those games into the laughingstock. If people want to play them in private, that is fine - I just don't want them held up as representative of the majority of the hobby.

Touch the monolith is an oblique 2001 reference.

Again, what does RanXerox or Tom of Finland or Peter Pank have to do with The Beano or Teen Titans?

Fuck all other than it shares a medium. One item in that medium making someone uncomfortable doesn't damn the whole medium.

What does Manhunt or Soldier of Fortune or Grand Theft Auto have to do with Bejewelled or Farmville?

Fuck all other than it shares a medium. One item in that medium making someone uncomfortable doesn't damn the whole medium.

So what does Poison'd or Maid or even FATAL have to do with D&D or RuneQuest?

Again, fuck all.

If we can understand this in these other media what's the thing blocking comprehension of it when it comes to RPGs?

Quote from: GRIM;635655Touch the monolith is an oblique 2001 reference.

Again, what does RanXerox or Tom of Finland or Peter Pank have to do with The Beano or Teen Titans?

Fuck all other than it shares a medium. One item in that medium making someone uncomfortable doesn't damn the whole medium.

What does Manhunt or Soldier of Fortune or Grand Theft Auto have to do with Bejewelled or Farmville?

Fuck all other than it shares a medium. One item in that medium making someone uncomfortable doesn't damn the whole medium.

So what does Poison'd or Maid or even FATAL have to do with D&D or RuneQuest?

Again, fuck all.

If we can understand this in these other media what's the thing blocking comprehension of it when it comes to RPGs?

Except that while they may all be RPGs, they are not representative of all RPGs. Certainly not representative of the tastes of a majority of RPG Players.

Quote from: jeff37923;635656Except that while they may all be RPGs, they are not representative of all RPGs. Certainly not representative of the tastes of a majority of RPG Players.

And this is no different to all these other media.

Quote from: GRIM;635659And this is no different to all these other media.

But these media that you keep referring to will not bring about an evolutionary wellspring like you suggest by your statement of "touch the monolith".

I never read RanXerox or Tom of Finland or Peter Pank or The Beano or Teen Titans. I never played Manhunt or Soldier of Fortune or Grand Theft Auto or Bejewelled or Farmville. I have never played Poison'd or Maid or even FATAL either. I have no interest. I do not see how my life will be enriched by me broadening my mind with their presence.

Forcing me to read the above or play the above will not help me evolve. Experiencing crap that does not interest me is only useful if I can then better recognize crap that does not interest me later on and thus avoid it.

Quote from: jeff37923;635663Forcing me to read the above or play the above will not help me evolve. Experiencing crap that does not interest me is only useful if I can then better recognize crap that does not interest me later on and thus avoid it.

I'm not suggesting you be forced. I'm suggesting you evolve your viewpoint to understand that there is room for all these things and the existence of one need have no impact whatsoever on the other.

"Are you coming over to play Bridge tonight Marjory?"
"Oh, no, I couldn't possibly. I saw some young gentlemen playing 'Booby Match' and I don't think I want to associate with card games after that."

THIS NEVER HAPPENS.

So why, please, please, please explain, would you think its different for our medium?

Coming in late I think sex in games I've run/played in has pretty well mirrored the age of the participants.

Early teens it was avoided as a weird/uncomfortable topic.

Late teens it was cool and awesome and filled with teenage macho bullshit so that everyone KNEW HOW MUCH SEX YOU WERE HAVING.

Early twenties was "We are so mature now and sex is no big deal so we'll include it casually in our games (aren't we cool?)."

Now is "Sex?... Oh yeah... I had forgotten about that"

Quote from: GRIM;635665I'm not suggesting you be forced. I'm suggesting you evolve your viewpoint to understand that there is room for all these things and the existence of one need have no impact whatsoever on the other.

"Are you coming over to play Bridge tonight Marjory?"
"Oh, no, I couldn't possibly. I saw some young gentlemen playing 'Booby Match' and I don't think I want to associate with card games after that."

THIS NEVER HAPPENS.

So why, please, please, please explain, would you think its different for our medium?

Actually, it does happen with RPGs.

It is 2013, I still have to tell people that D&D does not involve Satanism at the game table nor do we dress up as our characters.

For myself, I have no interest in playing Maid or Poison'd or FATAL. I do not care if people want to play them in private. I do care if games of wink-wink nudge-nudge paedophilia or neck-raped cabin boys or a game that centers around perversion for no apparent reason other than because it is there in public and people declare them as being the mainstream of gaming because it drives away not only new potential Players but experienced long term Players as well. Most people do not want that shit around their game tables. Deal with it.

And next time you want to bring someone over to your point of view, do not be so insulting as to suggest that their opinion is "unevolved" compared to yours.

Quote from: jeff37923;635667Actually, it does happen with RPGs.

It is 2013, I still have to tell people that D&D does not involve Satanism at the game table nor do we dress up as our characters.

That had nothing to do with the games themselves and everything to do with an external panic.

Quote from: jeff37923;635667For myself, I have no interest in playing Maid or Poison'd or FATAL. I do not care if people want to play them in private. I do care if games of wink-wink nudge-nudge paedophilia or neck-raped cabin boys or a game that centers around perversion for no apparent reason other than because it is there in public and people declare them as being the mainstream of gaming because it drives away not only new potential Players but experienced long term Players as well. Most people do not want that shit around their game tables. Deal with it.

Bully for you. Other people do and what they do really has no discernible effect on you and your table. If someone doesn't like Hostel it doesn't mean they give up on all cinema forever.

Quote from: jeff37923;635667And next time you want to bring someone over to your point of view, do not be so insulting as to suggest that their opinion is "unevolved" compared to yours.

I can't think of a nice way to phrase it. To me (and others) it seems a really peculiar POV to hold.

I'm afraid you just aren't getting it Grim.  This is a small hobby.  A community rather.  Yes, it very much impacts every single one of us when you have players who enjoy FATAL, Maid, etc.  Especially when those players see no issue with it being played right there in "the open" like it's no big deal.

Now, I imagine you might be thinking, "I shouldn't have to feel ashamed for playing the game I like in public.", and my answer to that is, "When that game involves sexual assault and seduction of minors, you're goddamn right you should feel ashamed at the very least."

I am sooooooooo fucking tired of people looking at me like I'm some sort of creeper when they find out I'm a gamer because all they've heard is the controversy around games like the above.  And make no mistake, it's the controversial games that get all the publicity, just like everything else.

So yeah, it is my best interests as a gamer, and it does affect me directly as a gamer, when games like those are enjoyed publicly.  I have always supported your right to create whatever product you want as long as it's legal, but don't for one minute act like you're not having a negative impact to the rest of us around you.

Wait, non gamers even know FATAL (or Poison'd for that matter) exist?

Quote from: Nexus;635691Wait, non gamers even know FATAL (or Poison'd for that matter) exist?

http://www.somethingawful.com/d/dungeons-and-dragons/fatal-worst-rpg.php

Quote from: GRIM;635669I can't think of a nice way to phrase it. To me (and others) it seems a really peculiar POV to hold.

To me this seems like a really peculiar thread. It's not hard, whatever floats the boat at your table, now let's get back to talking about gaming.

Nota bene, I'm starting to suspect that shifty character Silva of being a troll, given that he has a grand total of two posts in this thread, the OP and "lol ", to say nothing of his shared narrative contributions.

Quote from: Piestrio;635693http://www.somethingawful.com/d/dungeons-and-dragons/fatal-worst-rpg.php

And to be totally fair, that was just an example.  The logic behind my argument also applies to things not nearly as bad, like horrible sexist cheesecake art on the cover on an RPG.  Even if a non-gamer doesn't know about FATAL, they see those covers and associate all those horrible stereotypes about nerds with it.

So yeah, while I don't play FATAL, or Maid, or have a copy of The Book of Erotic Fantasy, I am most certainly impacted by those players who do because I'm lumped in with them by the rest of the free world.

Seriously, if gamers want to try to get out of this stereotype that they're a bunch of creepy neckbeards who masturbate over cover art, stop playing/putting out material that just reinforces that.  You might have the right to do so, but don't pretend like your actions aren't hurting everyone else

Quote from: mcbobbo;635396Stop and think about this for a minute.  I am here to talk about games.  If I want to talk about other things, I'd go elsewhere.  Being curious about how your experiences might be different from my own is the ENTIRE FUCKING POINT of coming to a site like this one.  For me, at least.

If I wanted a forum where everyone looked and sounded exactly as I do, with no new ideas or experiences, I'd lower my dosage, whip up a bunch of sock puppets and have a grand conversation with some really intelligent people.

So I call bullshit on your bullshit.  If you didn't care about what people were doing at their tables, you wouldn't be here sharing what you do at yours.

Sorry, but I don't - and actually, come to think of it, I'm not sorry at all, but rather pleased about it, so we can dispense with that little linguistic tic.  I'm happy to share what I like, but what other people do has zero bearing on that.  This site is more of a reminder of "There but for the grace of God" than a desire to learn what other people are doing.

Of course, that could also be considered caring, in the sense that the only way to not care is a sense of total, crippling apathy, so I guess you got me!  You still give too much a shit about what other people are doing, though.