What game systems do you think do the best job of simulating pain, as well as the fear of pain?

To use a specific example, I'm thinking of a brawler taking on a knife-fighter. Not that I've had direct experience in the matter, but it seems to me that the brawler would be fearful of the knife not just because it "does more damage" than unarmed combat, but because getting cut hurts. Likewise, it seems that getting cut is painful enough to cause a momentary distraction even when it doesn't cause the equivalent of a "wound level" or whatever.

Mind you, I'm not sure that I'd want to run a game with this level of detail... unless, perhaps, if there's a particularly slick way of handling it.

CP2020 has stun rolls after any damage is taken. I generally avoid even things as broad as death spirals since the accounting overhead is unfortunately just on the wrong side of the cost/benefit line. People are more afraid of knives because they actually do massively more damage than fists, any glancing blow can maim or severely injure someone, so standard shock/pain rules should suffice without having to segregate things by implement.

Quote from: Dan Davenport;618602What game systems do you think do the best job of simulating pain, as well as the fear of pain?

To use a specific example, I'm thinking of a brawler taking on a knife-fighter. Not that I've had direct experience in the matter, but it seems to me that the brawler would be fearful of the knife not just because it "does more damage" than unarmed combat, but because getting cut hurts. Likewise, it seems that getting cut is painful enough to cause a momentary distraction even when it doesn't cause the equivalent of a "wound level" or whatever.

Mind you, I'm not sure that I'd want to run a game with this level of detail... unless, perhaps, if there's a particularly slick way of handling it.

I think you could do it as an attack penalty to reflect the hesitation and fear of pain. I use wound penalties in my games, but I have found can be a bit too hefty, so I have lowered them over the years. However, I never really thought of wound penalties as being about pain, so much as loss of function.

I think if you want to model pain, it will be tricky because accounts seem to vary widely on its effects. You always here stories of people getting shot and not realizing it until they see the wound. And I am sure we have all had that experience where you bang into something and don't realize you are cut and bleeding for several minutes (often until you see it).

At the same time, even the idea of pain is enough to make you change your behavior. I don't know what it feels like to be stabbed or cut by a knife (at least not anything more severe than nicking myself while cutting celery). But I have seen pictures of knife fight wounds, and I am guessing that even if I didn't feel it, seeing that kind of wound on my own body would change my behavior.

But on pain alone, I am not sure what its effects ought to be. I can think of times when pain seemed to impede my ability to do something (for example you hit your shin on something really solid and every time you step it radiates through your whole leg) but I am honestly not sure how much of that was the pain itself or that my leg was actually not as effective. Bt it was distracting either way. The problem I have, even in my own games, is deciding what that sort of thing ought to affect. Some pain is definitely going to impact my ability to study for an exam, but if I find myself in a situation where I have to push myself to move, I won't notice it. So maybe some sort of mental ability check to overcome the penalty of pain is called for. Actually now that you have me talking about this, I quite like the idea of letting characters in my games make an Endurance or Resolve roll to avoid wound penalties for a round.

Sorry to ramble.

I think this is also something where the GM can have a huge impact by just paying attention to his descriptions.

Quote from: The Traveller;618603People are more afraid of knives because they actually do massively more damage than fists, any glancing blow can maim or severely injure someone, so standard shock/pain rules should suffice without having to segregate things by implement.

I think this is probably true and if you use a more realistic damage system for knives (where they can do supperficial wounds but also sever arteries or penetrate organs in a single blow, player characters would behave in a more cautious and fearful way around them.

Quote from: Dan Davenport;618602What game systems do you think do the best job of simulating pain, as well as the fear of pain?

To use a specific example, I'm thinking of a brawler taking on a knife-fighter. Not that I've had direct experience in the matter, but it seems to me that the brawler would be fearful of the knife not just because it "does more damage" than unarmed combat, but because getting cut hurts. Likewise, it seems that getting cut is painful enough to cause a momentary distraction even when it doesn't cause the equivalent of a "wound level" or whatever.

Mind you, I'm not sure that I'd want to run a game with this level of detail... unless, perhaps, if there's a particularly slick way of handling it.

I don't know of a single system that simulates fear, anticipation, intent etc or the effects of adrenaline as applied to martial systems. The only thing that comes close are the insanity rules in Nemesis (ORE) (specifically being desensitised to violence) which came from Unknown Armies, and that's probably not what you want.

Most martial arts are fixated on technique over mindset, and don't really understand this either.

By the way, sometimes getting cut hurts and sometimes it doesn't. I've known a few people who were accidentally damaged with broken blades; some of them said it was like being hit with a cricket bat, others just didn't notice until it was pointed out to them.

Quote from: smiorgan;618608I don't know of a single system that simulates fear, anticipation, intent etc or the effects of adrenaline as applied to martial systems. The only thing that comes close are the insanity rules in Nemesis (ORE) (specifically being desensitised to violence) which came from Unknown Armies, and that's probably not what you want.

Most martial arts are fixated on technique over mindset, and don't really understand this either.

By the way, sometimes getting cut hurts and sometimes it doesn't. I've known a few people who were accidentally damaged with broken blades; some of them said it was like being hit with a cricket bat, others just didn't notice until it was pointed out to them.

I have done martial arts since I was a wee kiddie and played a lot of rugby. Been doing Muay thai for about 2 years now. Muay Thai is all about desensitising you to pain and violence but rugby does it just as effectively.
Knives are scary cos they kill you , getting cut doesn't hurt very much in my experience though its mostly been to the hands and legs, thouigh I did once nearly cut my nose off with a bayonet trying to open a can of sardines...long story.
Getting kicked in the nads if far far more painful. I have been headbutted full on by a 6'5" number 8 which broke my nose and I still took the ball off him and got it to my scrum half, but the other week my 8 year old daughter swung a punch at my stomach which I didn't block as i was holding a cup of tea and it missed my stomach and just caught be in the jewel box and after putting down my tea I had to lie down for 10 minutes cos I could hardly breathe.

Quote from: jibbajibba;618611thouigh I did once nearly cut my nose off with a bayonet trying to open a can of sardines...long story.

Ah, Rolemaster.

Look at systems with less abstract wound/hp systems. In GURPS for example if you are hit for X damage then you are at -X on your next action if you want to try anything.

If you take more than half your HP in a single blow then you must make a HT roll or fall down. Even skilled fighters don't have piles of HP. Thier skill is represented by greater chances to both hit and defend, thus avoiding damage altogether.

In any event, start with a system that doesn't feature combatants able to take multiple hits with the only effect being a loss of hp.

Burning Wheel does the fear of pain well. The game has a stat, Steel, which represents your ability to overcome difficult situations that could result in pain. Dealing with actual pain is a different matter; the game takes the route of many rpgs by giving penalties by the severity of the wound.

Thanks for all the input, folks!

One other thing I meant to mention: It seems to me that the stunning effect of getting hurt governs a lot of the momentum in combat. Real combat doesn't look like "I hit you, you hit me, I hit you," etc... In a boxing match, for example, one guy lands a series of blows that keeps the other guy reeling.

I think this is particularly important if you want to be able to simulate creatures that don't feel pain, like robots or zombies. That's one thing that makes them so scary: you can't slow them down by hurting them. You've got to render them physically unable to fight somehow. (Well, the bullet-to-the-head thing for zombies notwithstanding.)

Quote from: Dan Davenport;618622Thanks for all the input, folks!

One other thing I meant to mention: It seems to me that the stunning effect of getting hurt governs a lot of the momentum in combat. Real combat doesn't look like "I hit you, you hit me, I hit you," etc... In a boxing match, for example, one guy lands a series of blows that keeps the other guy reeling.

I think this is particularly important if you want to be able to simulate creatures that don't feel pain, like robots or zombies. That's one thing that makes them so scary: you can't slow them down by hurting them. You've got to render them physically unable to fight somehow. (Well, the bullet-to-the-head thing for zombies notwithstanding.)

Just keep in mind, it isn't pain you are seeing in a boxing match. That is getting your bell rung. The guy is reeling because once that process starts each hit is a potential knock out until you have a moment to recover because your brain keeps shaking inside your skull. That is why combos are so effective. Once you land a good hit to the head, you follow up to knock them out. But it usually isn't a product of pain. Muhammad Ai has a good description of this on youtube somewhere. I will try to track it down.

Quote from: Crabbyapples;618621Burning Wheel does the fear of pain well. The game has a stat, Steel, which represents your ability to overcome difficult situations that could result in pain. Dealing with actual pain is a different matter; the game takes the route of many rpgs by giving penalties by the severity of the wound.

Good point, I forgot that. OK, I revise my earlier statement.

On a more general note, once two (or more) people are in a fight, they're in the fight with all the consequences. I prefer to keep everything as simple as possible (e.g. down to one roll).

What matters is the escalation up to that point, which is where the fear of engaging comes in. Most games leave that decision to the player (i.e. they accept the consequences of fighting something better armed than they) but if you had a mechanic that stopped one side pressing forward (fear check based on experience, mental state etc.), that might give you the fear aspect if you felt the need. Maybe some games do this already then.

Quote from: Dan Davenport;618622It seems to me that the stunning effect of getting hurt governs a lot of the momentum in combat. Real combat doesn't look like "I hit you, you hit me, I hit you," etc... In a boxing match, for example, one guy lands a series of blows that keeps the other guy reeling.

We have trouble in tournaments with all sorts of contre-temps, exchanged thrusts and after-blows. Sport fencers and priority rules mean that they are quite happy to trade lethal blows, because their hit landed first so they get the point.

Boxers are interesting. The effect of combos is as you describe, but also the effect of training means as soon as they start getting hit, thier instinct is to cover up and wait out the flurry. This is learned muscle memory from their trainer shouting "cover up! cover up!" while they get pummeled. They get this so ingrained that even when they get a solid hit, they have the instinct to cover up. Then the pursuer has to get around the gloves by changing the direction of the follow-up blows. Boxers are amazingly skilled, and amazingly fit.

This is why modeling this stuff in games is hard, and doing a cross-discipline example doubly so.

Quote from: smiorgan;618632Boxers are interesting. The effect of combos is as you describe, but also the effect of training means as soon as they start getting hit, thier instinct is to cover up and wait out the flurry. This is learned muscle memory from their trainer shouting "cover up! cover up!" while they get pummeled. They get this so ingrained that even when they get a solid hit, they have the instinct to cover up. Then the pursuer has to get around the gloves by changing the direction of the follow-up blows. Boxers are amazingly skilled, and amazingly fit.
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That is one of the first things they teach you. It is sometimes called caging or going into the cage. You touch your gloves to your head and form a cage with your arms and elbows. It looks like you are a afraid of the hits, but you are justtrying to take some of the impact out of the blows. A good boxer continues to look through the cage at his opponent. The less skilled ones tend to start looking away or flinching.

Quote from: BedrockBrendan;618633That is one of the first things they teach you. It is sometimes called caging or going into the cage. You touch your gloves to your head and form a cage with your arms and elbows. It looks like you are a afraid of the hits, but you are justtrying to take some of the impact out of the blows. A good boxer continues to look through the cage at his opponent. The less skilled ones tend to start looking away or flinching.

Yeah. Goes to show how important context is. Those big gloves allow you to do that, but bare knuckle techniques are completely different. Some systems (like Renaud's Defense Dans La Rue) protect the gut and mark because a shot there will end the fight (because you're in a street, and you'll get kicked by your opponent's mates when you go down). The chin is tucked in so most blows will strike the top of the head.