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What game systems do you think do the best job of simulating pain, as well as the fear of pain?

To use a specific example, I'm thinking of a brawler taking on a knife-fighter. Not that I've had direct experience in the matter, but it seems to me that the brawler would be fearful of the knife not just because it "does more damage" than unarmed combat, but because getting cut hurts. Likewise, it seems that getting cut is painful enough to cause a momentary distraction even when it doesn't cause the equivalent of a "wound level" or whatever.

Mind you, I'm not sure that I'd want to run a game with this level of detail... unless, perhaps, if there's a particularly slick way of handling it.

CP2020 has stun rolls after any damage is taken. I generally avoid even things as broad as death spirals since the accounting overhead is unfortunately just on the wrong side of the cost/benefit line. People are more afraid of knives because they actually do massively more damage than fists, any glancing blow can maim or severely injure someone, so standard shock/pain rules should suffice without having to segregate things by implement.

Quote from: Dan Davenport;618602What game systems do you think do the best job of simulating pain, as well as the fear of pain?

To use a specific example, I'm thinking of a brawler taking on a knife-fighter. Not that I've had direct experience in the matter, but it seems to me that the brawler would be fearful of the knife not just because it "does more damage" than unarmed combat, but because getting cut hurts. Likewise, it seems that getting cut is painful enough to cause a momentary distraction even when it doesn't cause the equivalent of a "wound level" or whatever.

Mind you, I'm not sure that I'd want to run a game with this level of detail... unless, perhaps, if there's a particularly slick way of handling it.

I think you could do it as an attack penalty to reflect the hesitation and fear of pain. I use wound penalties in my games, but I have found can be a bit too hefty, so I have lowered them over the years. However, I never really thought of wound penalties as being about pain, so much as loss of function.

I think if you want to model pain, it will be tricky because accounts seem to vary widely on its effects. You always here stories of people getting shot and not realizing it until they see the wound. And I am sure we have all had that experience where you bang into something and don't realize you are cut and bleeding for several minutes (often until you see it).

At the same time, even the idea of pain is enough to make you change your behavior. I don't know what it feels like to be stabbed or cut by a knife (at least not anything more severe than nicking myself while cutting celery). But I have seen pictures of knife fight wounds, and I am guessing that even if I didn't feel it, seeing that kind of wound on my own body would change my behavior.

But on pain alone, I am not sure what its effects ought to be. I can think of times when pain seemed to impede my ability to do something (for example you hit your shin on something really solid and every time you step it radiates through your whole leg) but I am honestly not sure how much of that was the pain itself or that my leg was actually not as effective. Bt it was distracting either way. The problem I have, even in my own games, is deciding what that sort of thing ought to affect. Some pain is definitely going to impact my ability to study for an exam, but if I find myself in a situation where I have to push myself to move, I won't notice it. So maybe some sort of mental ability check to overcome the penalty of pain is called for. Actually now that you have me talking about this, I quite like the idea of letting characters in my games make an Endurance or Resolve roll to avoid wound penalties for a round.

Sorry to ramble.

I think this is also something where the GM can have a huge impact by just paying attention to his descriptions.

Quote from: The Traveller;618603People are more afraid of knives because they actually do massively more damage than fists, any glancing blow can maim or severely injure someone, so standard shock/pain rules should suffice without having to segregate things by implement.

I think this is probably true and if you use a more realistic damage system for knives (where they can do supperficial wounds but also sever arteries or penetrate organs in a single blow, player characters would behave in a more cautious and fearful way around them.

Quote from: Dan Davenport;618602What game systems do you think do the best job of simulating pain, as well as the fear of pain?

To use a specific example, I'm thinking of a brawler taking on a knife-fighter. Not that I've had direct experience in the matter, but it seems to me that the brawler would be fearful of the knife not just because it "does more damage" than unarmed combat, but because getting cut hurts. Likewise, it seems that getting cut is painful enough to cause a momentary distraction even when it doesn't cause the equivalent of a "wound level" or whatever.

Mind you, I'm not sure that I'd want to run a game with this level of detail... unless, perhaps, if there's a particularly slick way of handling it.

I don't know of a single system that simulates fear, anticipation, intent etc or the effects of adrenaline as applied to martial systems. The only thing that comes close are the insanity rules in Nemesis (ORE) (specifically being desensitised to violence) which came from Unknown Armies, and that's probably not what you want.

Most martial arts are fixated on technique over mindset, and don't really understand this either.

By the way, sometimes getting cut hurts and sometimes it doesn't. I've known a few people who were accidentally damaged with broken blades; some of them said it was like being hit with a cricket bat, others just didn't notice until it was pointed out to them.

Quote from: smiorgan;618608I don't know of a single system that simulates fear, anticipation, intent etc or the effects of adrenaline as applied to martial systems. The only thing that comes close are the insanity rules in Nemesis (ORE) (specifically being desensitised to violence) which came from Unknown Armies, and that's probably not what you want.

Most martial arts are fixated on technique over mindset, and don't really understand this either.

By the way, sometimes getting cut hurts and sometimes it doesn't. I've known a few people who were accidentally damaged with broken blades; some of them said it was like being hit with a cricket bat, others just didn't notice until it was pointed out to them.

I have done martial arts since I was a wee kiddie and played a lot of rugby. Been doing Muay thai for about 2 years now. Muay Thai is all about desensitising you to pain and violence but rugby does it just as effectively.
Knives are scary cos they kill you , getting cut doesn't hurt very much in my experience though its mostly been to the hands and legs, thouigh I did once nearly cut my nose off with a bayonet trying to open a can of sardines...long story.
Getting kicked in the nads if far far more painful. I have been headbutted full on by a 6'5" number 8 which broke my nose and I still took the ball off him and got it to my scrum half, but the other week my 8 year old daughter swung a punch at my stomach which I didn't block as i was holding a cup of tea and it missed my stomach and just caught be in the jewel box and after putting down my tea I had to lie down for 10 minutes cos I could hardly breathe.

Quote from: jibbajibba;618611thouigh I did once nearly cut my nose off with a bayonet trying to open a can of sardines...long story.

Ah, Rolemaster.

Look at systems with less abstract wound/hp systems. In GURPS for example if you are hit for X damage then you are at -X on your next action if you want to try anything.

If you take more than half your HP in a single blow then you must make a HT roll or fall down. Even skilled fighters don't have piles of HP. Thier skill is represented by greater chances to both hit and defend, thus avoiding damage altogether.

In any event, start with a system that doesn't feature combatants able to take multiple hits with the only effect being a loss of hp.

Burning Wheel does the fear of pain well. The game has a stat, Steel, which represents your ability to overcome difficult situations that could result in pain. Dealing with actual pain is a different matter; the game takes the route of many rpgs by giving penalties by the severity of the wound.

Thanks for all the input, folks!

One other thing I meant to mention: It seems to me that the stunning effect of getting hurt governs a lot of the momentum in combat. Real combat doesn't look like "I hit you, you hit me, I hit you," etc... In a boxing match, for example, one guy lands a series of blows that keeps the other guy reeling.

I think this is particularly important if you want to be able to simulate creatures that don't feel pain, like robots or zombies. That's one thing that makes them so scary: you can't slow them down by hurting them. You've got to render them physically unable to fight somehow. (Well, the bullet-to-the-head thing for zombies notwithstanding.)

Quote from: Dan Davenport;618622Thanks for all the input, folks!

One other thing I meant to mention: It seems to me that the stunning effect of getting hurt governs a lot of the momentum in combat. Real combat doesn't look like "I hit you, you hit me, I hit you," etc... In a boxing match, for example, one guy lands a series of blows that keeps the other guy reeling.

I think this is particularly important if you want to be able to simulate creatures that don't feel pain, like robots or zombies. That's one thing that makes them so scary: you can't slow them down by hurting them. You've got to render them physically unable to fight somehow. (Well, the bullet-to-the-head thing for zombies notwithstanding.)

Just keep in mind, it isn't pain you are seeing in a boxing match. That is getting your bell rung. The guy is reeling because once that process starts each hit is a potential knock out until you have a moment to recover because your brain keeps shaking inside your skull. That is why combos are so effective. Once you land a good hit to the head, you follow up to knock them out. But it usually isn't a product of pain. Muhammad Ai has a good description of this on youtube somewhere. I will try to track it down.

Quote from: Crabbyapples;618621Burning Wheel does the fear of pain well. The game has a stat, Steel, which represents your ability to overcome difficult situations that could result in pain. Dealing with actual pain is a different matter; the game takes the route of many rpgs by giving penalties by the severity of the wound.

Good point, I forgot that. OK, I revise my earlier statement.

On a more general note, once two (or more) people are in a fight, they're in the fight with all the consequences. I prefer to keep everything as simple as possible (e.g. down to one roll).

What matters is the escalation up to that point, which is where the fear of engaging comes in. Most games leave that decision to the player (i.e. they accept the consequences of fighting something better armed than they) but if you had a mechanic that stopped one side pressing forward (fear check based on experience, mental state etc.), that might give you the fear aspect if you felt the need. Maybe some games do this already then.

Quote from: Dan Davenport;618622It seems to me that the stunning effect of getting hurt governs a lot of the momentum in combat. Real combat doesn't look like "I hit you, you hit me, I hit you," etc... In a boxing match, for example, one guy lands a series of blows that keeps the other guy reeling.

We have trouble in tournaments with all sorts of contre-temps, exchanged thrusts and after-blows. Sport fencers and priority rules mean that they are quite happy to trade lethal blows, because their hit landed first so they get the point.

Boxers are interesting. The effect of combos is as you describe, but also the effect of training means as soon as they start getting hit, thier instinct is to cover up and wait out the flurry. This is learned muscle memory from their trainer shouting "cover up! cover up!" while they get pummeled. They get this so ingrained that even when they get a solid hit, they have the instinct to cover up. Then the pursuer has to get around the gloves by changing the direction of the follow-up blows. Boxers are amazingly skilled, and amazingly fit.

This is why modeling this stuff in games is hard, and doing a cross-discipline example doubly so.

Quote from: smiorgan;618632Boxers are interesting. The effect of combos is as you describe, but also the effect of training means as soon as they start getting hit, thier instinct is to cover up and wait out the flurry. This is learned muscle memory from their trainer shouting "cover up! cover up!" while they get pummeled. They get this so ingrained that even when they get a solid hit, they have the instinct to cover up. Then the pursuer has to get around the gloves by changing the direction of the follow-up blows. Boxers are amazingly skilled, and amazingly fit.
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That is one of the first things they teach you. It is sometimes called caging or going into the cage. You touch your gloves to your head and form a cage with your arms and elbows. It looks like you are a afraid of the hits, but you are justtrying to take some of the impact out of the blows. A good boxer continues to look through the cage at his opponent. The less skilled ones tend to start looking away or flinching.

Quote from: BedrockBrendan;618633That is one of the first things they teach you. It is sometimes called caging or going into the cage. You touch your gloves to your head and form a cage with your arms and elbows. It looks like you are a afraid of the hits, but you are justtrying to take some of the impact out of the blows. A good boxer continues to look through the cage at his opponent. The less skilled ones tend to start looking away or flinching.

Yeah. Goes to show how important context is. Those big gloves allow you to do that, but bare knuckle techniques are completely different. Some systems (like Renaud's Defense Dans La Rue) protect the gut and mark because a shot there will end the fight (because you're in a street, and you'll get kicked by your opponent's mates when you go down). The chin is tucked in so most blows will strike the top of the head.

Quote from: smiorgan;618635Yeah. Goes to show how important context is. Those big gloves allow you to do that, but bare knuckle techniques are completely different. Some systems (like Renaud's Defense Dans La Rue) protect the gut and mark because a shot there will end the fight (because you're in a street, and you'll get kicked by your opponent's mates when you go down). The chin is tucked in so most blows will strike the top of the head.

Boxers protect the gut too. But you tend to do it with your elbows. I would be wary of any technique claiming to end a fight in one hit though. MMA gloves are really light compared to boxing gloves, but a shot to the gut still wont end most fights in that sport. After years of muay thai, i have been kicked solidly in gut by shins and knees...those hits wear your down, but it is really, really hard to end it with one shot to the gut.  And an important part of training is stengthening those stomach muscles so it doesn't feel like much when you get hit there.

Gloves do make a difference though. It definitely creates less space for a fist to pass through.

Boxers and MMA fighters usually tuck the chin as well (especially when they cage).

Quote from: BedrockBrendan;618637Boxers protect the gut too. But you tend to do it with your elbows. I would be wary of any technique claiming to end a fight in one hit though. MMA gloves are really light compared to boxing gloves, but a shot to the gut still wont end most fights in that sport. After years of muay thai, i have been kicked solidly in gut by shins and knees...those hits wear your down, but it is really, really hard to end it with one shot to the gut.  And an important part of training is stengthening those stomach muscles so it doesn't feel like much when you get hit there.

Gloves do make a difference though. It definitely creates less space for a fist to pass through.

Boxers and MMA fighters usually tuck the chin as well (especially when they cage).

FWIW my background is coaching and practicing English MA, from 18c. It's recreational rather than competition standard.

The thing is, the target audience for 18 and 19c boxing manuals is probably not a hardcore boxer. More likely they're reasonably fit and take a few classes for self-defence. So when we talk about protecting the gut it's not because the other areas aren't important, it's because the trainer is time-poor and has to prioritise on what to teach. It just happened that Renaud favours a particular guard, for the reasons I mentioned (which I don't entirely agree with).

These manuals aren't gospel, either. The WMA community holds some texts up with such reverence because they're historical documents, when the content is actually no damn good (like some RPGs).

Quote from: Dan Davenport;618602What game systems do you think do the best job of simulating pain, as well as the fear of pain?

........

Mind you, I'm not sure that I'd want to run a game with this level of detail... unless, perhaps, if there's a particularly slick way of handling it.

I can think of several systems, Rolemaster, The Riddle of Steel, but in my opinion, the system that does pain and fear of pain best are Ironclaw 2nd edition and Usagi Yojimbo (Sanguine), with the added advantage of simplicity.

Now I have no time, I'll explain how it works later.

Sometimes I wish we had a martial arts subforum here:)

I think I contributed to getting this discussion away from the OPs initial subject of pain and RPG mechanics. My guess is he isn't terribly concerned about being 100% realistic and more concerned about something that feels right for most people at the table.

So to backpeddle a bit, I would say if you want something to reflect stuff like being stunned by pain I think the following might work: depending on your wound system, you could have each character possess a Pain threshold which is triggered when they take a certain amount of damage. For example, maybe characters all have a wound threshold of between 1-4. If you have a 1 and take one wound, you don't have to worry, but if you take two wounds in a single blow, that exceeds your wound threshold and you suffer penalties. This could just be for the one round (to avoid the whole death spiral issue) or conditional on failing some kind of endurance check like I mentioned before. I think the key is getting around problem where seemingly reasonable wound penalties have too pronounced an effect for what they are intended to represent.

The reason I think a pain threshold might work, is it makes things a bit more relative. So Newton the 90 pound professor might have a pain threshold of 1, but Biff the Beefcake might have a 3 or 4.

Quote from: Claudius;618667I can think of several systems, Rolemaster, The Riddle of Steel, but in my opinion, the system that does pain and fear of pain best are Ironclaw 2nd edition and Usagi Yojimbo (Sanguine), with the added advantage of simplicity.

Now I have no time, I'll explain how it works later.

I am trying to remember how rolemaster handled fear of pain. It has been a while since I played.

You could also just use normal existing fear mechanics and apply it to situations where the character suffers or might suffer pain. For example, I could see taking the Ravenloft fear check and anytime the character faces the possibliity of encountering something painful when they attack, they need to make a save. Using DoD, I would have them roll a d4 on a failure when they are just trying to attack, but roll a d6 when they damage (and a d10 when they take a bunch). The d4 gives you a range of possibilities from fumbling, freezing to staggering. The d6 raises it to things like running away. And the d10 elevates it to possibly needing a system shock roll. I am going by memory though so my exact numbers might be off. It is quite a bit rough for a solution though.

Off the top of my head, HarnMaster has the most detailed injury system that I've seen, and it has an effective combat and injury system.  Obviously, it might more detailed than most people are looking for but it just might scratch that itch for some who want more detail for combat and injury in their gaming.

A game system can mechanize the effects of pain on physical performance but the fear of feeling pain is up to the player or the rules risk dictating how PCs react to situations.

After all, if a PC wants to stop a mugging in progress, then gets told to roll a d6 and the outcome is " sorry but you rolled a 1. That guy has a knife, so your fear of getting cut overrides your desire to help that young woman."

At that point, why the fuck are you playing?

Quote from: Exploderwizard;618688A game system can mechanize the effects of pain on physical performance but the fear of feeling pain is up to the player or the rules risk dictating how PCs react to situations.

After all, if a PC wants to stop a mugging in progress, then gets told to roll a d6 and the outcome is " sorry but you rolled a 1. That guy has a knife, so your fear of getting cut overrides your desire to help that young woman."

At that point, why the fuck are you playing?

This stuff doesn't bother me so much. It depends on what you are trying to do. It works well in horror games, in my opinion. It can work in other games where you want to emphasize the fear of being hurt. Some players don't take well to these kinds of mechanics though.

Quote from: BedrockBrendan;618690This stuff doesn't bother me so much. It depends on what you are trying to do. It works well in horror games, in my opinion. It can work in other games where you want to emphasize the fear of being hurt. Some players don't take well to these kinds of mechanics though.

Personally, it depends on what I signed up to play. For example if I chose cowardice and combat paralysis as disads for my character then I would fully expect to freeze in combat situations and avoid the possibility of harm at all costs.

I don't know if I would play a game where my decisions in game are decided by the author because its more realistic or captures a certain feel that the author believes the game needs. I have actual fiction to read for that.

At the table, I want to play ,not get told how I react.

Quote from: Exploderwizard;618706Personally, it depends on what I signed up to play. For example if I chose cowardice and combat paralysis as disads for my character then I would fully expect to freeze in combat situations and avoid the possibility of harm at all costs.

I don't know if I would play a game where my decisions in game are decided by the author because its more realistic or captures a certain feel that the author believes the game needs. I have actual fiction to read for that.

At the table, I want to play ,not get told how I react.

I understand and it is totally fair to play the game you want to play. For me i could get into this kind of mechanic of the rulebook was clear they wanted to simulate the effect of fear on characters.

I dont see this as simulating fiction, it is more of a reality simulation. We all know how we would like to react in a violent situation, but we rarely react the way we envision ourselves acting. I think a game that had a bravery stat for example, which you either have to overcome to take actions in a dangerous situation, or take penalties to act, could be kind of fun. You could shift that decision to the player if you prefer, and in most games doing so works best, but I dont think it is inherntly bad to have this sort of mechanism when it is intended to reflect something real like how fear is something that can actually stiffle your actions or cause you to run when away (even if you want to be doing something else).

Now some players just don't like stuff like that taking control of their character, and that is totally cool. But I will happily use fear and sanity mechanics in games where it feels appropriate and the players are all onboard. It isn't something that works very well for epic fantasy, but it can work great in a modern realistic setting or a horror setting.

Quote from: BedrockBrendan;618668I think I contributed to getting this discussion away from the OPs initial subject of pain and RPG mechanics.

Whoops, guilty also.

Quote from: Exploderwizard;618706Personally, it depends on what I signed up to play.

Right on. And a game that forces you to have a skill of don't be afraid has a limited scope. If you wanted to make some statement about the horror of being unable to act and scared, that's OK, but it's not the kind of game we're used to.

If you plan to use fear as a limiting mechanism, then there are a few ways to do it:

- make it a disadvantage that's triggered under some circumstances and specific to a character build
- make it fear of escalating the fight to the next level. So it's OK to wade in with fists and get bruised, but once someone draws a knife your attitude changes. I think that's reasonable.

Dogs in the Vineyard has (I think) four tiers of conflict with ways to escalate. But from what I remember of the mechanics it does this in a strange, broken way so I wouldn't use that as a model (and it would probably get me into trouble, eh?)

I do think it's reasonable to have people with different comfort zones regarding fighting. Brawling OK, a knife fight not OK. Friendly schlaegar match with cuts to the scalp and cheeks, OK, but a pistol duel to the death, not OK.

Or twist it up a bit--effete nobles who are fine with duelling to the death with rapiers, but cave in as soon as someone bloodies their nose. It's all about social background, and mechanically workable. Call it "social partitioning" or something.

Hmm. There's an idea. I'll write that down.

I'm fine with fear and sanity rules in games as well as 'wound thresholds' that mess with my ability to fight/defend. I think it's generally up to the players to decide whether or not to enter a fight and when it's time to retreat/run away... but very few people I've played with ever run away once the knives/guns/fists come out and mostly I blame that on rules that assure them they won't face any permanent damage. If I know a bullet/knife/sword can put me in the hospital for weeks, or cause the loss of use of an arm... or death... I'm gonna picture that pain in my mind and think a lot harder about avoiding the situations where that might happen.

Quote from: Simlasa;618731I'm fine with fear and sanity rules in games as well as 'wound thresholds' that mess with my ability to fight/defend. I think it's up to the roleplaying to decide whether or not to enter a fight and when it's time to retreat/run away... but very few people I've played with ever run away once the knives/guns/fists come out and mostly I blame that on rules that assure them they won't face any permanent damage.

I have found the simplest solution to this problem is to have a sufficiently lethal system. If characters die easily enough, people will role play fear just fine.

In my system, pain decreases Stamina temporarily, so it doesn't make it penalize a character's ability to hit, but it means they have a harder time shrugging off subsequent wounds and are more susceptible to getting knocked out. Fear of pain is something I leave up to roleplaying. The system is deadly enough that my players are generally loathe to get into fights that aren't very much one-sided in their favour.

As far as pain goes, a lot of games such as Hackmaster, Harnmaster, RQ6, Yggdrasill, etc... have a mechanism where if you take a wound, some form of save must be made against Pain, Shock, Trauma, etc, or it can reduce initiative, stun you, make you fall down, etc...

The fear of pain, along with abillity to handle adrenaline, situational awareness (Jeff Cooper's Conditions) I would chalk up to some kind of skill or ability (Combat Sense, Grit, Toughness, whatever) that represents your general increase in the intangibles that go along with becoming a veteran combatant.  In a Class system, this would just be handled by Class/Level.

Quote from: Dan Davenport;618602What game systems do you think do the best job of simulating pain, as well as the fear of pain?

GURPS and Harnmaster

GURPS because of the distinction between different damage types which effects the amount of damage AFTER armor deducted. Blunt damage is not modified. For Cutting damage any damage after armor is multiplied by 1.5. For impaling damage the multiplier is 2.

Plus if you take more than half your health you gain a major roll and have to roll health to see if you fall down, and roll health again to see if you are stunned (not knocked out).

Harnmaster because they have a shock save after you take damage and their damage charts take into account the difference between crushing, edged, and piercing weapons in the way you talked about.

Both are quick to resolve and players react as you would expect.

Quote from: Drohem;618672Off the top of my head, HarnMaster has the most detailed injury system that I've seen, and it has an effective combat and injury system.  Obviously, it might more detailed than most people are looking for but it just might scratch that itch for some who want more detail for combat and injury in their gaming.

It boils down to roll injury, make one or two saves against your attributes. In my experience it resolves fast as long as you have a copy of the chart in front of you. This is also helped by the front loaded character sheets.

It the only RPG with a detailed combat system I ran where it added greatly to immersion.

http://www.columbiagames.com/resources/4001/harnmaster-combattables.pdf

Quote from: estar;618802It the only RPG with a detailed combat system I ran where it added greatly to immersion.

http://www.columbiagames.com/resources/4001/harnmaster-combattables.pdf

What I like about the columbia games harnmaster (much understanding is there are a few different versions of the game and don't know how they compare) is they got so many of the important details (they even get into different treatment options for physicians) but something about the presentation makes it feel less overwhelming than a lot of other similar games.

Quote from: estar;618802It boils down to roll injury, make one or two saves against your attributes. In my experience it resolves fast as long as you have a copy of the chart in front of you. This is also helped by the front loaded character sheets.

It the only RPG with a detailed combat system I ran where it added greatly to immersion.

http://www.columbiagames.com/resources/4001/harnmaster-combattables.pdf

Sure, I have no issues with it.  Years ago, I ran a gladiatorial arena game based on the combat rules.  I know that some people view the HârnMaster rules as on the complex side, but when you boil it down it's fairly simple and straightforward.

Quote from: Drohem;618809Sure, I have no issues with it.  Years ago, I ran a gladiatorial arena game based on the combat rules.  I know that some people view the HârnMaster rules as on the complex side, but when you boil it down it's fairly simple and straightforward.

Yup as long as you got the character sheets filled out and a copy of the charts. Currently the only major issue is that 3rd edition Shock Rule is too hard core. It almost certain that somebody will go down on the second or third blow even from a light wound. However it easily fixed by changing the penalty to the save.

Quote from: BedrockBrendan;618733If characters die easily enough, people will role play fear just fine.

Best line of the thread. :cheerleader:

(And the solution I'm pursuing for my Infinity Gaming System (http://www.therpgsite.com/showthread.php?t=24581).)

On fear of pain: fear and reactions to the same are visceral, not cerebral. You don't usually fear things because they're objectively scary (that's where wariness tends to come from), but because your snake brain is screaming at your endocrine system, which dumps adrenaline into your blood. (Some other complicated things happening there as well.) That prompts your flight-or-flight response. (Fear is also different than terror, to add another complexity.)

Spiders are viscerally disquieting. We're genetically programmed to find their movements creepy and off-putting.

Sunglasses are intimidating. (People never believe me when I say this, but it's true.) Facing a human being who lacks eyes is alienating, we respond as if they're a threat. That's why the Secret Service wears them.

And, objectively speaking, guns are far more dangerous than knives. Guns are far more likely to kill you or do significant damage to your vitals.

Even so, the edge of a blade is far more threatening than a gun. People are more scared by knives than pistols. (This has been tested empirically.) The threat of getting sliced evokes an atavistic response.

It's visceral, not cerebral.

Can you model this in a game? I'm thinking about how, for my afore-pimped game. After all, it plays into things like suppressive fire, morale, and other very important concepts.

Haven't thought of a good way to do so. Your Fear check thing is promising, though.

As for "don't want you to take control of my character" (mentioned by Exploder). That's why there is (or should be) Advantages.

If you want an impassive combat veteran, who's not afraid of anything, then you pony up points at creation to become one of them, the same way you'd have to do to become a crack sniper or crackerjack racecar driver. Games with this kind of mechanic should allow for that, IMHO.

Quote from: CRKrueger;618794situational awareness (Jeff Cooper's Conditions)

Where can I find out more?

Quote from: BedrockBrendan;618808What I like about the columbia games harnmaster (much understanding is there are a few different versions of the game and don't know how they compare) is they got so many of the important details (they even get into different treatment options for physicians) but something about the presentation makes it feel less overwhelming than a lot of other similar games.

In the beginning ..... :D

There was Harnmaster 1st edition

Then there was Harnmaster 2nd edition in full color which cleaned up a lot of the 1st edition issue but lost some of the nice subsystems (like weaponcrafting).

N Robin Crossby the creator of Harn was not happy with how 2nd edition was going to turn out, among other issues between him and Columbia Games, so published his own Harnmaster Gold in three books. It is Harnmaster 1st edition on steroids and rather overpriced.

Columbia Games cleaned up 2nd edition and released 3rd edition which added back some of the missing 1st edition stuff and a little more. The separate books for Magic and Religion for 2nd edition still works for 3rd edition. The only major flaw is the overly deadly shock rolls (Xd6 versus endurance where X is the amount of injury you took plus your previous injuries). I fixed this by changing it to Xd6 where X is only the current level of injury you took and you add the previous injuries. So now you can take a few minor hits before collapsing from shock.

Harnmaster is still the same well designed system it was in 1st edition including the details for treatment you remember. It may look complex but in play it works well and is very straightforward to resolve the mechanics.

Quote from: estar;618826In the beginning ..... :D

There was Harnmaster 1st edition

Then there was Harnmaster 2nd edition in full color which cleaned up a lot of the 1st edition issue but lost some of the nice subsystems (like weaponcrafting).

N Robin Crossby the creator of Harn was not happy with how 2nd edition was going to turn out, among other issues between him and Columbia Games, so published his own Harnmaster Gold in three books. It is Harnmaster 1st edition on steroids and rather overpriced.

Columbia Games cleaned up 2nd edition and released 3rd edition which added back some of the missing 1st edition stuff and a little more. The separate books for Magic and Religion for 2nd edition still works for 3rd edition. The only major flaw is the overly deadly shock rolls (Xd6 versus endurance where X is the amount of injury you took plus your previous injuries). I fixed this by changing it to Xd6 where X is only the current level of injury you took and you add the previous injuries. So now you can take a few minor hits before collapsing from shock.

Harnmaster is still the same well designed system it was in 1st edition including the details for treatment you remember. It may look complex but in play it works well and is very straightforward to resolve the mechanics.

I have third edition and quite like it. I agree it looks complex but it is quite smooth and the way the rule book is organized really helps.

Quote from: Claudius;618667in my opinion, the system that does pain and fear of pain best are Ironclaw 2nd edition and Usagi Yojimbo (Sanguine), with the added advantage of simplicity.

OK, here comes the explanation.

In both games, whenever you're hit, even if it's only a scratch, you're sent "Reeling". When you're Reeling, the only action you can take is Recover from Reeling (so you lose an action), and attackers get a bonus to hit you. This represents very well the pain you feel when you're hit "Argh, that hurt!"

In Ironclaw, whenever you suffer two or more points of damage, you get "Afraid". When you're Afraid, you cannot attack (although you can defend yourself), until you lose sight of all your enemies, or you get rallied. This represents that, when someone hits you, your intent of fighting decreases sharply.

Quote from: BedrockBrendan;618668Sometimes I wish we had a martial arts subforum here:)

I think I contributed to getting this discussion away from the OPs initial subject of pain and RPG mechanics. My guess is he isn't terribly concerned about being 100% realistic and more concerned about something that feels right for most people at the table.

So to backpeddle a bit, I would say if you want something to reflect stuff like being stunned by pain I think the following might work: depending on your wound system, you could have each character possess a Pain threshold which is triggered when they take a certain amount of damage. For example, maybe characters all have a wound threshold of between 1-4. If you have a 1 and take one wound, you don't have to worry, but if you take two wounds in a single blow, that exceeds your wound threshold and you suffer penalties. This could just be for the one round (to avoid the whole death spiral issue) or conditional on failing some kind of endurance check like I mentioned before. I think the key is getting around problem where seemingly reasonable wound penalties have too pronounced an effect for what they are intended to represent.

The reason I think a pain threshold might work, is it makes things a bit more relative. So Newton the 90 pound professor might have a pain threshold of 1, but Biff the Beefcake might have a 3 or 4.

+1 for martial arts sub-forum :)

Orignal BootHill had an attribute for Bravery and basically the top end fearless or foolhardy characters got a bonus to speed (initiative) and accuracy.
So whilst it didn't try to simulate pain etc it did look at coolness under fire type thing (twilight 2000 right ?)
in addition each hit reduced your speed so as you were hit you dropped down the pecking order and so were likely to get hit again... sounds a bit liek the reeling mechanic above although that sounds more like Shaken in SW.

Quote from: smiorgan;618618Ah, Rolemaster.

...aaaaaand Thread.

Rolemaster works perfectly well because of the fear induced in players by the criticals.
Unarmed brawler going up against a guy with a knife? He knows he's a roll away from getting stuck like a pig, dropping and bleeding out in 9 rounds.

Quote from: Daddy Warpig;618822Where can I find out more?

This is from Wikipedia, Cooper's book would be the best place probably.

The most important means of surviving a lethal confrontation, according to Cooper, is neither the weapon nor the martial skills. The primary tool is the combat mindset, set forth in his book, Principles of Personal Defense.

In the chapter on awareness, Cooper presents an adaptation of the Marine Corps system to differentiate states of readiness: The color code, as originally introduced by Jeff Cooper, had nothing to do with tactical situations or alertness levels, but rather with one's state of mind. As taught by Cooper, it relates to the degree of peril you are willing to do something about and which allows you to move from one level of mindset to another to enable you to properly handle a given situation. Cooper did not claim to have invented anything in particular with the color code, but he was apparently the first to use it as an indication of mental state.

• White: Unaware and unprepared. If attacked in Condition White, the only thing that may save you is the inadequacy or ineptitude of your attacker. When confronted by something nasty, your reaction will probably be "Oh my God! This can't be happening to me."
  
• Yellow: Relaxed alert. No specific threat situation. Your mindset is that "today could be the day I may have to defend myself". You are simply aware that the world is a potentially unfriendly place and that you are prepared to defend yourself, if necessary. You use your eyes and ears, and realize that "I may have to shoot today". You don't have to be armed in this state, but if you are armed you should be in Condition Yellow. You should always be in Yellow whenever you are in unfamiliar surroundings or among people you don't know. You can remain in Yellow for long periods, as long as you are able to "Watch your six." (In aviation 12 o'clock refers to the direction in front of the aircraft's nose. Six o'clock is the blind spot behind the pilot.) In Yellow, you are "taking in" surrounding information in a relaxed but alert manner, like a continuous 360 degree radar sweep. As Cooper put it, "I might have to shoot."
  
• Orange: Specific alert. Something is not quite right and has your attention. Your radar has picked up a specific alert. You shift your primary focus to determine if there is a threat (but you do not drop your six). Your mindset shifts to "I may have to shoot that person today", focusing on the specific target which has caused the escalation in alert status. In Condition Orange, you set a mental trigger: "If that person does "X", I will need to stop them". Your pistol usually remains holstered in this state. Staying in Orange can be a bit of a mental strain, but you can stay in it for as long as you need to. If the threat proves to be nothing, you shift back to Condition Yellow.
  
• Red: Condition Red is fight. Your mental trigger (established back in Condition Orange) has been tripped. "If 'X' happens I will shoot that person"
  
• Black: The USMC uses condition Black, although it was not originally part of Cooper's Color Code. Catastrophic breakdown of mental and physical performance. Usually over 175 heartbeats per minute, increased heart rate becomes counter productive. May have stopped thinking correctly. This can happen when going from Condition White or Yellow immediately to Condition Red.
  

In short, the Color Code helps you "think" in a fight. As the level of danger increases, your willingness to take certain actions increases. If you ever do go to Condition Red, the decision to use lethal force has already been made (your "mental trigger" has been tripped).

Personally, I think pain and fear of pain is something you'd want to emulate on in very particular genres of games.  Westerns come to mind if they're a certain kind of western; as do certain kind of modern war theme games.

But I don't think its something you'd want if you're emulating kung-fu, or an action movie, or for standard D&D.

RPGPundit

Quote from: CRKrueger;619084This is from Wikipedia, Cooper's book would be the best place probably.

Thanks for the info.

An old friend of mine told me of a campaign long ago where the GM figured out that if players were in charge of their decisions, it didn't matter if you tortured their characters unto death, they'd never break down.
So this GM decided the way to simulate the effect was to torture THE PLAYERS.

He had one PC captured by the Bad Guys, and when he set up the scene where the PC was tied to a chair and their interrogator was about to go to work, the GM started the "Willie Nelson Christmas" album on the stereo.
By the time it hit "Rudolph the Red-nosed Reindeer" the player said, "Fuck it.  I squeal, I squall, I blab, I betray my friends, I tell this bastard EVERYTHING HE NEEDS TO KNOW."

JG