One may like the artist's work without liking the rabid fans?

The last one?

Quote from: flyingcircus;617507But you hate 4vengers so why dabble in their tomes?

4e I just think is a kinda crappy game, no harm in that.

Lots of crappy games out there.

It's the rabid shit flinging fans I can't stand. The ones who won't let "I like this game" rest and have to PROVE that 4e is the best game ever by shitting all over previous editions.

You know the ones. When ever anyone says "I don't like 4e and think X is better" they swoop in and put you on trial until they PROVE that you don't actually have any legitimate reasons for not liking 4e. Just like the current crop of threads on TBP.

Because math.

Sorry for the typo above, indeed I meant silt, not silk.

PS. As to 4e fans who defend the system on the basis of the math, just ask them how many of the approximately... 3000? ... defense and damage numbers in the first Monster Manual were actually correct. Answer: 5%. The rest had to be errated. I have my own quick fix (leave the defense numbers intact, add level to damage) but that doesn't excuse the fact that the book's lead developer didn't have a clue. Guess who that lead developer was.

Quote from: flyingcircus;617507But you hate 4vengers so why dabble in their tomes?

You can hate the fanboys but still be meh about the RPG.  Besides, you never know what nuggets you'll find.

Quote from: Windjammer;617807Sorry for the typo above, indeed I meant silt, not silk.

PS. As to 4e fans who defend the system on the basis of the math, just ask them how many of the approximately... 3000? ... defense and damage numbers in the first Monster Manual were actually correct. Answer: 5%. The rest had to be errated. I have my own quick fix (leave the defense numbers intact, add level to damage) but that doesn't excuse the fact that the book's lead developer didn't have a clue. Guess who that lead developer was.

Wait, are you saying that if I buy 4e Monster Manual, I'll have to errata 95% of the defense and damage numbers?
:jaw-dropping:

Is it like an obvious error where I 'just add +5 to everything!' or something to fix it? Or is there actual pages of WotC errata with little pattern between monsters? And if I don't use the errata, what bad things happen?

(Naturally this might place 4e MM1 into the "DO NOT WANT!" category of bargain basement sale items...)

Quote from: Opaopajr;617882Wait, are you saying that if I buy 4e Monster Manual, I'll have to errata 95% of the defense and damage numbers?
:jaw-dropping:

Is it like an obvious error where I 'just add +5 to everything!' or something to fix it? Or is there actual pages of WotC errata with little pattern between monsters? And if I don't use the errata, what bad things happen?

(Naturally this might place 4e MM1 into the "DO NOT WANT!" category of bargain basement sale items...)

The highlighted bit is the appropriate reaction.

Essentially half-way through the cycle they totally revamped all the monsters hit points/damage (previously many monsters had very small damage and gigantic pools of hit points so combat was an unbearable slog where nothing happened.) This is compounded by the fact that they had very few ideas for unique attacks in MM1/MM2 so most monsters are very minor variations on each other and thus boring even if you do fix the numbers.

As far as I know they never bothered to update MM1/MM2 themselves (which were both published with the wrong numbers), instead re-releasing updated versions of some of the old monsters in the Monster Vaults. There's basically no reason for anyone- even someone who wanted to play 4E- to ever purchase MM1/MM2.

Quote from: tanstaafl48;617911(previously many monsters had very small damage and gigantic pools of hit points so combat was an unbearable slog where nothing happened.) This is compounded by the fact that they had very few ideas for unique attacks in MM1/MM2 so most monsters are very minor variations on each other and thus boring even if you do fix the numbers.

Compounding that even further was the poor design of most 'Solo' monsters. Most of which where not at all threatening to a party alone, completely undermining their implementation. Which was really odd considering their inclusion had been used as a selling point. (The beholder may be the exception)

Getting over the solo/elite distinction being totally arbitrary some of the later ones could be pretty nifty.

Quote from: Bill;616767The dark sun campaign book is good, and the setting is just as water scarce as the origional.

If one low level module has an underground river...meh...not seeing that as a big deal. The writer may have simply goofed.

Many Dark Sun fans enjoyed the Campaign Setting book.  In terms of fluff, it's very good.  I think that I might have been unfair with my "It gets worse" comment earlier.

I think that problems with the 4E Dark Sun setting ("underground river" thing and water/silt tiles) were exacerbated by skepticism towards handling of Forgotten Realms.  Many Realms fans were angry about the Spellplague, so things like the Dark Sun adventure stand out in the lens of negativity.

Quote from: Kord's Boon;617933Compounding that even further was the poor design of most 'Solo' monsters. Most of which where not at all threatening to a party alone, completely undermining their implementation. Which was really odd considering their inclusion had been used as a selling point. (The beholder may be the exception)

Getting over the solo/elite distinction being totally arbitrary some of the later ones could be pretty nifty.

I run my 4e campaigns using mostly MM1 and MM2, with the occasional stat block from a module, and it works just fine. But that's because, first of all, my campaigns run on cutting monster and PC hit points in half. That already gets rid of the overblown hp scores. Next, defense scores - sometimes they're too high, by like 1 or 2, I can't be bothered with that. No, it's the damage expressions that are all totally wrong. There are several quick fixes,
a) add one [W] per tier above heroic. [W] is weapon die, and in monster stat blocks it simply means... 1d8 or 1d10 or whatever. So if a paragon tier monster deals 2d10+8 damage, it now deals 3d10+8. Same version of epic, would be 4d10+8.
b) add level. That same monster, say it's level 12. Instead of 2d10+8 it now deals 2d10+20.

As you can see, these fixes are by no means equivalent. a) errs on the side of caution, b) makes for a lethal game (which has worked really well for my group), and extra short fights, because more often than not PCs will run rather than stay around a couple of rounds to see if they can 'keep up' for a bit. Two, three hits by monsters a couple of levels above the PCs will kill them, if they occur in short succession (before a cleric or similar chimes in with healing).

Finally, elites I leave as are, and solos need two fixes. First one, 'action recovery', and second 'acts three times per round'. These sort of interrelate.
Solos roll initative, and also get a standard action on their initiative count +10 and then again on +15. They can expend any of their actions to auto-save on a single daze/stun/dominate condition at the start of their turn, and to get save rolls against any additional effects (say it's dazed, stunned, and has ongoing 10 - then it consumes a standard action at ini+15 to get rid of stunned, and then gets two save rolls, one vs. daze and one vs. ongoing damage).

Now, for people not regularly playing 4e this must sound like awfully complicated and time consuming. But in practice, it works speedily and it does make the game run a lot faster. The math fixes as well become second nature after a session or two.

So, is MM1 a 'non buy'? I wouldn't say so, but your mileage may seriously vary. If you want to save yourself the above efforts, then yes the Vaults are the easier alternative.

Finally, a lot of MM1 errata articles are freely available on the WotC webpage:

https://www.wizards.com/DnD/Archive.aspx?category=dm&subcategory=mmupdates

Quote from: Windjammer;617807Sorry for the typo above, indeed I meant silt, not silk.

As I figured.  I guess no one told the 4e-guys that silt isn't blue...

RPGPundit

Quote from: Windjammer;618707So, is MM1 a 'non buy'? I wouldn't say so, but your mileage may seriously vary. If you want to save yourself the above efforts, then yes the Vaults are the easier alternative.

Finally, a lot of MM1 errata articles are freely available on the WotC webpage:

https://www.wizards.com/DnD/Archive.aspx?category=dm&subcategory=mmupdates

I'm not necessarily claiming MM1 is pointless (you can make it work if you're willing to fix stuff); I'm claiming that whatever value it provides is superseded by the monster vaults, which cover basically the same monsters in a much better way. So if you're standing on the outside trying to buy something it doesn't make sense to invest in the early manuals if you have a choice to buy the vaults.

Especially if you're only buying for the purposes of backstory/ideas for monsters it's hard to recommend the earlier books (MV2 would be worthwhile for this purpose; there's some pretty cool ideas in there that wouldn't be too hard to move to other systems.)

I agree with the mention of the Dark Sun books, as well as the two planer supplements, Plane Above and Plane Below.  I'll add Demonomicon, which had much that made the two planer books quality, though it is only about 100 pages without the monster section.

Quote from: tanstaafl48;618857I'm not necessarily claiming MM1 is pointless (you can make it work if you're willing to fix stuff); I'm claiming that whatever value it provides is superseded by the monster vaults, which cover basically the same monsters in a much better way. So if you're standing on the outside trying to buy something it doesn't make sense to invest in the early manuals if you have a choice to buy the vaults.

Especially if you're only buying for the purposes of backstory/ideas for monsters it's hard to recommend the earlier books (MV2 would be worthwhile for this purpose; there's some pretty cool ideas in there that wouldn't be too hard to move to other systems.)

Completely valid points, certainly no disagreement from me.

The one thing I'd mention is that, at this point, I don't yet expect the Vaults to end up in bargain bins, as they are newer products. The MM 1, however, you can get at 5 dollar a piece*, and for that amount of money, it may be worth picking up, even to someone not interested in the system, for the mini-essays on the monsters and (occasionally) on cosmology. E.g. the entries on Orcurs contain a background the deities, and the one on the devils and demons contain background on the lower planes. But yes, I'd browse the book before putting a fiver to it.

*At least, if you're within the EU. There's a German online shop, called 711games, which I've used for that purpose in the last couple of weeks, i.e. to basically order quantities of 4e core books that will last me for... decades... of gifting.

Quote from: Windjammer;618707There are several quick fixes,

These look pretty handy, thank you. I'll refer this to our current DM who is looking for more lethal options in 4e.

Quote from: Windjammer;618707...solos need two fixes. First one, 'action recovery', and second 'acts three times per round'.

This is mostly for MM1 correct? I tend to like the extra actions as opposed to additional turns since some players sometimes try to exploit start of turn effects as vigorously as stun/daze/dom. For the one you design from the round up do you prefer abilities that negate effect when applied or just the get out of jail free cards you described as 'action recovery' above.