I liked some of the fluff from 4e, (aside from stupid names for EVERYTHING), and now that stores are just giving away 4e books I thought it might be time to grab any that are worthwhile.
I have no interest in the rules or mechanics, fluff and inspiration only.
What's your take?
I found the mini-dungeon books (Open Grave and Dungeon Delve) to be more useful than they first seemed. They have little mini-adventures that are easy to use when there's no time or inspiration to put together a more interesting session. They also typically have little sparks of ideas and can be used as cores or side-quests of larger homemade adventures.
Quote from: Gabriel2;615206I found the mini-dungeon books (Open Grave and Dungeon Delve) to be more useful than they first seemed. They have little mini-adventures that are easy to use when there's no time or inspiration to put together a more interesting session. They also typically have little sparks of ideas and can be used as cores or side-quests of larger homemade adventures.
Kind of like the old book of lairs?
Even though I don't like 4E, the Dark Sun Campaign Setting is a pretty good book and I am happy to have it to supplement the rest of my Dark Sun material.
DMG2 has some good general advice and a write-up on Sigil.
PHB2 classes are, mechanically and thematically, the best interpretations of those classes in the game's history, AFAIAC, particularly Bards, Druids, and Barbarians. Also, racial paragon paths, which you could adapt the themes of to your preferred edition of choice.
Hammerfast is a decent city supplement, as they go.
Dungeon Tiles
I have heard good things about the Dark Sun book.
Quote from: Planet Algol;615276Dungeon Tiles
LOL.
Quote from: Piestrio;615207Kind of like the old book of lairs?
Yes, very much like a more fleshed out Book of Lairs.
Quote from: Planet Algol;615276Dungeon Tiles
I use these quite a bit. In fact, I prefer them to using my dry erase battlemat.
Quote from: Zak S;615278LOL.
On second thought I retract that statement, there were too many dang water tiles in the Dark Sun pack.
Make Dark Sun tiles. Include an significant proportion of tiles including water and boats. WTF?!?!
Echoing approval of the Dark Sun Campaign Setting and the Open Grave book. I also like one of the Essentials Monster Manuals: Threats of the Nentir Vale, which quite accidentally provides an example of how to run a sandbox campaign in 4E.
Thanks guys, what about the feywild and shadowfell (gah, those names!) books? Are they just crunch?
Quote from: Piestrio;615286Thanks guys, what about the feywild and shadowfell (gah, those names!) books? Are they just crunch?
I got swagged Shadowfell a while ago and it's just...the stat blocks are sooooo long and the formatting is soooooo full of padding you have to flip through that it didn't seem worth it to chew through it and get a holistic view and find the dungeon underneath.
So maybe that's useless or maybe it's useful.
I think I've picked it up like 4 times and tried to get something out of it and put it down.
The Slaying Stone is flawed but has an easily decent non-railroady adventure underneath.
Monster Vault
Quote from: Zak S;615292The Slaying Stone is flawed but has an easily decent non-railroady adventure underneath.
Ah, yes, I did like that one. Provide the PCs with a problem and a location and leave the approach up to them.
Conversely, avoid Keep on the Shadowfell and related adventures, which are railroady as fuck.
Quote from: Broken-Serenity;615295Monster Vault
How much of the monster write ups are stat vs. background/ecology/etc... ?
I have MM1 and was sorely disappointed in this regard.
Quote from: Piestrio;615303How much of the monster write ups are stat vs. background/ecology/etc... ?
I have MM1 and was sorely disappointed in this regard.
Monster Vault went out of its way to correct that; most of the write-ups are background-based, with stats serving as examples rather than the meat of a given entry.
Quote from: jeff37923;615267Even though I don't like 4E, the Dark Sun Campaign Setting is a pretty good book and I am happy to have it to supplement the rest of my Dark Sun material.
I agree with this 100%.
i have heard that neverwinter campaign setting is pretty good and light on mechanics making it a good book to use with multiple editions.
Quote from: This Guy;615298Conversely, avoid Keep on the Shadowfell and related adventures, which are railroady as fuck.
The "Thunderspire Labyrinth" module is less railroady, and can be used as a mini-sandbox inside a mountain.
Dark Sun 4E book is great.
I have used it in a 4E and a Pathfinder dark sun game.
Quote from: Planet Algol;615281there were too many dang water tiles in the Dark Sun pack.
You know what? Somehow, this sums up the grand total and entirety of 4e D&D better than anything I ever heard before in my life.
RPGPundit
Quote from: RPGPundit;616041You know what? Somehow, this sums up the grand total and entirety of 4e D&D better than anything I ever heard before in my life.
RPGPundit
Agreed. There's a reason I keep harping about that.
It gets worse. One of the adventures (for low-level PCs) had a big-ass river of clear, clean water in a dungeon, and it's treated as just another piece of the environment. With its own ecosystem. No explanation as to how no powerful groups claimed the dungeon, how the PCs can exploit this new-found bounty, or where it's coming from.
Read the reviews. (http://www.amazon.com/Marauders-Dune-Sea-Dungeons-Dragons/product-reviews/0786954957/ref=dp_top_cm_cr_acr_txt?ie=UTF8&showViewpoints=1)
I ordinarily wouldn't have a problem with this if the adventure gave the location the gravity it was due. Every major power within 100 miles of that dungeon would be scrambling to claim this place; a boom-town of thirsty and desperate travelers across the desert will be gathering outside. Bandits, Templars, Preservers, Defilers, the works, will all have a vested interest in this place.
I have heard good things about 4E Dark Sun. Regarding the rest of the books, the best thing about them is how much they make you re-evaluate anything from the previous editions.
Quote from: Reckall;616219the best thing about them is how much they make you re-evaluate anything from the previous editions.
I was already re-evaluating and rebuilding everything due to the pre-OSR, Necromancer game board sword & sorcery/weird fantasy -SR, so the shake ups of 4E meant nothing to me.
Quote from: Libertad;616213It gets worse. One of the adventures (for low-level PCs) had a big-ass river of clear, clean water in a dungeon, and it's treated as just another piece of the environment. With its own ecosystem. No explanation as to how no powerful groups claimed the dungeon, how the PCs can exploit this new-found bounty, or where it's coming from.
Wow, its almost as if they didn't give a shit about setting at all, except as a backdrop for new powers and combat scenarios...
RPGPundit
4E - fixes Athas by eliminating water scarcity?
The dark sun campaign book is good, and the setting is just as water scarce as the origional.
If one low level module has an underground river...meh...not seeing that as a big deal. The writer may have simply goofed.
Quote from: Bill;616767The dark sun campaign book is good, and the setting is just as water scarce as the origional.
If one low level module has an underground river...meh...not seeing that as a big deal. The writer may have simply goofed.
And the Dungeon tiles with boats and water.
Quote from: Piestrio;616771And the Dungeon tiles with boats and water.
So whomever is in charge of tile release was either clueless or did not care.
That does not make the dark sun campaign book bad.
I used that book for a 4e and a pathfinder dark sun game and I think it is an excellent resource.
If you can find it complete I like Madness at Gardmore Abby. You get a decent module and a Deck of Many Things to boot.
Dark Sun is also cool, I like the creature catalog as well.
I'm going to go out on a limb and say if you are at all interested in items the Mordenkainen's Magnificent Emporium was pretty decent. It offered -a lot- more interesting options then what you see in the other supplements. It also has several artifacts, since artifact concordance was something a actually liked about 4e item rules.
Avoid the feywild book.
The best 4e stuff is the new Gamma World. Pure fucking rockage.
I am not a FR fan, but I enjoyed the Neverwinter book and I would run a 4e campaign with that book. My current 4e campaign is my PHB3 homebrew out in the Astral Sea and my OD&D campaign is a city-campaign which is the only reason I am not running a Neverwinter campaign right now.
Quote from: Spinachcat;616807The best 4e stuff is the new Gamma World. Pure fucking rockage.
I am not a FR fan, but I enjoyed the Neverwinter book and I would run a 4e campaign with that book. My current 4e campaign is my PHB3 homebrew out in the Astral Sea and my OD&D campaign is a city-campaign which is the only reason I am not running a Neverwinter campaign right now.
I have the 4E gamma world but have not had a chance to play it yet. Would you say it is a 'better' version of 4E within its limitations based on the setting it is made for?
The blue areas on the DS tiles represent silk. They were originally meant to be grey, not blue, but then changed to be made useful for DMs running desert scenarios in other settings. So it's not outright stupidity, just a willingness to sacrifice idiosyncracies in flavour for 'generic utility value' (I'd use that as a tagline for much of 4e). That, btw, was also the story behind the DS module. Bruce Cordell had it apparently in the drawer, a generic Realms adventure, and then an editor picked it up and did little more than exchange a couple of names and scenery descriptions. So it'd be useful for GMs not running Dark Sun.
Now for recommendations... hmmm...
On the whole, 4e books are extremely system heavy - written for use with 4e - so in general I would not recommend them for people playing other systems. There's usually something else out there, on a similar topic, with better and more content for the same price.
Take for instance Open Grave - not bad, but if you can find and afford Libris Mortis, the 3e predecessor (from WotC), you get much more flavour material. 3e books somehow seemed less stat heavy, while having less empty space and smaller font size. Not to mention that 3e books were written for a more mature audience. 4E books use bad diction, bad grammar, and are on whole poorly edited. I do love them, but that's because of their game utility. They certainly don't excite the bibliophile in me.
Heroes of the Shadowfell* is the worst book in 4e history. There's a shadowfell background book, called Gloomwrought, but like Neverwinter it's a city supplement, with little useful info on the plane itself. Also, be wary of Essentials books like these two. WotC was already working on Next, so they gave everything to freelancers operating under minimal quality control (see again the Heroes of S book).
That's why I'd instead heavily recommend the Plane books. NOT the original Manual (one of the worst in the 4e line) but 'The Plane Above' and 'The Plane Below'. More than any other book, they give you the background vision to 4e fluff. They both contain mini adventures you can adapt, but I wouldn't recommend the books on that basis.
*Zak, the guy meant this book, not the H1 module (at least that's how I read the query, given how he juxtaposes it with the Feywild book)
Quote from: Bill;616907I have the 4E gamma world but have not had a chance to play it yet. Would you say it is a 'better' version of 4E within its limitations based on the setting it is made for?
Every time I pick up the box I put it back down again. I just like 1e Gamma World. Fond memories.
As for the original question, I found the Thunderspire Labryinth module to be very well done.
Quote from: Bill;616907I have the 4E gamma world but have not had a chance to play it yet. Would you say it is a 'better' version of 4E within its limitations based on the setting it is made for?
Essentially, GW is different than normal 4E in that
(A) Character gen is random and very fast. If you know what you're doing you can be done with it in about 15-20 minutes. You have very few abilities and essentially no choice about your abilities (Each character is generated by generating two random "races" that dictate all of your abilities.) There basically isn't equipment.
(B) Combat can be pretty lethal compared to 4E (there's very limited healing and both monsters and players hit really hard). Consequentially, combat is also much faster.
It's basically a highly simplified version of low-level 4E with the sci-fi setting added in. I liked it better than 4E itself.
Quote from: Windjammer;616941The blue areas on the DS tiles represent silk.
Do you perhaps mean silt?
There's still a kind of delicious irony, whether it was an accident or not. Its just so emblematic of the whole "we don't give a real shit about setting, its just a backdrop/facade for our rules-play" mentality.
RPGPundit
Quote from: Windjammer;616941The blue areas on the DS tiles represent silk. They were originally meant to be grey, not blue, but then changed to be made useful for DMs running desert scenarios in other settings.
I bought the Dark Sun tiles for use in desert environments in my own non-Dark Sun settings, and there still were too many dang water tiles.
It did work in Wizard's favor in that I had to buy more sets of the Dark Sun tiles to represent desert in my game, but I would consider that crippleware or a bug, and not a feature.
Quote from: RPGPundit;617466Do you perhaps mean silt?
There's still a kind of delicious irony, whether it was an accident or not. Its just so emblematic of the whole "we don't give a real shit about setting, its just a backdrop/facade for our rules-play" mentality.
RPGPundit
It certainly is possible the company does not care about settings.
The individual that wrote the dark sun book I think did care.
Quote from: Piestrio;615201I liked some of the fluff from 4e, (aside from stupid names for EVERYTHING), and now that stores are just giving away 4e books I thought it might be time to grab any that are worthwhile.
I have no interest in the rules or mechanics, fluff and inspiration only.
What's your take?
But you hate 4vengers so why dabble in their tomes?
One may like the artist's work without liking the rabid fans?
The last one?
Quote from: flyingcircus;617507But you hate 4vengers so why dabble in their tomes?
4e I just think is a kinda crappy game, no harm in that.
Lots of crappy games out there.
It's the rabid shit flinging fans I can't stand. The ones who won't let "I like this game" rest and have to PROVE that 4e is the best game ever by shitting all over previous editions.
You know the ones. When ever anyone says "I don't like 4e and think X is better" they swoop in and put you on trial until they PROVE that you don't actually have any legitimate reasons for not liking 4e. Just like the current crop of threads on TBP.
Because math.
Sorry for the typo above, indeed I meant silt, not silk.
PS. As to 4e fans who defend the system on the basis of the math, just ask them how many of the approximately... 3000? ... defense and damage numbers in the first Monster Manual were actually correct. Answer: 5%. The rest had to be errated. I have my own quick fix (leave the defense numbers intact, add level to damage) but that doesn't excuse the fact that the book's lead developer didn't have a clue. Guess who that lead developer was.
Quote from: flyingcircus;617507But you hate 4vengers so why dabble in their tomes?
You can hate the fanboys but still be meh about the RPG. Besides, you never know what nuggets you'll find.
Quote from: Windjammer;617807Sorry for the typo above, indeed I meant silt, not silk.
PS. As to 4e fans who defend the system on the basis of the math, just ask them how many of the approximately... 3000? ... defense and damage numbers in the first Monster Manual were actually correct. Answer: 5%. The rest had to be errated. I have my own quick fix (leave the defense numbers intact, add level to damage) but that doesn't excuse the fact that the book's lead developer didn't have a clue. Guess who that lead developer was.
Wait, are you saying that if I buy 4e Monster Manual, I'll have to errata 95% of the defense and damage numbers?
:jaw-dropping:
Is it like an obvious error where I 'just add +5 to everything!' or something to fix it? Or is there actual pages of WotC errata with little pattern between monsters? And if I don't use the errata, what bad things happen?
(Naturally this might place 4e MM1 into the "DO NOT WANT!" category of bargain basement sale items...)
Quote from: Opaopajr;617882Wait, are you saying that if I buy 4e Monster Manual, I'll have to errata 95% of the defense and damage numbers?
:jaw-dropping:
Is it like an obvious error where I 'just add +5 to everything!' or something to fix it? Or is there actual pages of WotC errata with little pattern between monsters? And if I don't use the errata, what bad things happen?
(Naturally this might place 4e MM1 into the "DO NOT WANT!" category of bargain basement sale items...)
The highlighted bit is the appropriate reaction.
Essentially half-way through the cycle they totally revamped all the monsters hit points/damage (previously many monsters had very small damage and gigantic pools of hit points so combat was an unbearable slog where nothing happened.) This is compounded by the fact that they had very few ideas for unique attacks in MM1/MM2 so most monsters are very minor variations on each other and thus boring even if you do fix the numbers.
As far as I know they never bothered to update MM1/MM2 themselves (which were both published with the wrong numbers), instead re-releasing updated versions of some of the old monsters in the Monster Vaults. There's basically no reason for anyone- even someone who wanted to play 4E- to ever purchase MM1/MM2.
Quote from: tanstaafl48;617911(previously many monsters had very small damage and gigantic pools of hit points so combat was an unbearable slog where nothing happened.) This is compounded by the fact that they had very few ideas for unique attacks in MM1/MM2 so most monsters are very minor variations on each other and thus boring even if you do fix the numbers.
Compounding that even further was the poor design of most 'Solo' monsters. Most of which where not at all threatening to a party alone, completely undermining their implementation. Which was really odd considering their inclusion had been used as a selling point. (The beholder may be the exception)
Getting over the solo/elite distinction being totally arbitrary some of the later ones could be pretty nifty.
Quote from: Bill;616767The dark sun campaign book is good, and the setting is just as water scarce as the origional.
If one low level module has an underground river...meh...not seeing that as a big deal. The writer may have simply goofed.
Many Dark Sun fans enjoyed the Campaign Setting book. In terms of fluff, it's very good. I think that I might have been unfair with my "It gets worse" comment earlier.
I think that problems with the 4E Dark Sun setting ("underground river" thing and water/silt tiles) were exacerbated by skepticism towards handling of Forgotten Realms. Many Realms fans were angry about the Spellplague, so things like the Dark Sun adventure stand out in the lens of negativity.
Quote from: Kord's Boon;617933Compounding that even further was the poor design of most 'Solo' monsters. Most of which where not at all threatening to a party alone, completely undermining their implementation. Which was really odd considering their inclusion had been used as a selling point. (The beholder may be the exception)
Getting over the solo/elite distinction being totally arbitrary some of the later ones could be pretty nifty.
I run my 4e campaigns using mostly MM1 and MM2, with the occasional stat block from a module, and it works just fine. But that's because, first of all, my campaigns run on cutting monster and PC hit points in half. That already gets rid of the overblown hp scores. Next, defense scores - sometimes they're too high, by like 1 or 2, I can't be bothered with that. No, it's the damage expressions that are all totally wrong. There are several quick fixes,
a) add one [W] per tier above heroic. [W] is weapon die, and in monster stat blocks it simply means... 1d8 or 1d10 or whatever. So if a paragon tier monster deals 2d10+8 damage, it now deals 3d10+8. Same version of epic, would be 4d10+8.
b) add level. That same monster, say it's level 12. Instead of 2d10+8 it now deals 2d10+20.
As you can see, these fixes are by no means equivalent. a) errs on the side of caution, b) makes for a lethal game (which has worked really well for my group), and extra short fights, because more often than not PCs will run rather than stay around a couple of rounds to see if they can 'keep up' for a bit. Two, three hits by monsters a couple of levels above the PCs will kill them, if they occur in short succession (before a cleric or similar chimes in with healing).
Finally, elites I leave as are, and solos need two fixes. First one, 'action recovery', and second 'acts three times per round'. These sort of interrelate.
Solos roll initative, and also get a standard action on their initiative count +10 and then again on +15. They can expend any of their actions to auto-save on a single daze/stun/dominate condition at the start of their turn, and to get save rolls against any additional effects (say it's dazed, stunned, and has ongoing 10 - then it consumes a standard action at ini+15 to get rid of stunned, and then gets two save rolls, one vs. daze and one vs. ongoing damage).
Now, for people not regularly playing 4e this must sound like awfully complicated and time consuming. But in practice, it works speedily and it does make the game run a lot faster. The math fixes as well become second nature after a session or two.
So, is MM1 a 'non buy'? I wouldn't say so, but your mileage may seriously vary. If you want to save yourself the above efforts, then yes the Vaults are the easier alternative.
Finally, a lot of MM1 errata articles are freely available on the WotC webpage:
https://www.wizards.com/DnD/Archive.aspx?category=dm&subcategory=mmupdates
Quote from: Windjammer;617807Sorry for the typo above, indeed I meant silt, not silk.
As I figured. I guess no one told the 4e-guys that silt isn't blue...
RPGPundit
Quote from: Windjammer;618707So, is MM1 a 'non buy'? I wouldn't say so, but your mileage may seriously vary. If you want to save yourself the above efforts, then yes the Vaults are the easier alternative.
Finally, a lot of MM1 errata articles are freely available on the WotC webpage:
https://www.wizards.com/DnD/Archive.aspx?category=dm&subcategory=mmupdates
I'm not necessarily claiming MM1 is pointless (you can make it work if you're willing to fix stuff); I'm claiming that whatever value it provides is superseded by the monster vaults, which cover basically the same monsters in a much better way. So if you're standing on the outside trying to buy something it doesn't make sense to invest in the early manuals if you have a choice to buy the vaults.
Especially if you're only buying for the purposes of backstory/ideas for monsters it's hard to recommend the earlier books (MV2 would be worthwhile for this purpose; there's some pretty cool ideas in there that wouldn't be too hard to move to other systems.)
I agree with the mention of the Dark Sun books, as well as the two planer supplements, Plane Above and Plane Below. I'll add Demonomicon, which had much that made the two planer books quality, though it is only about 100 pages without the monster section.
Quote from: tanstaafl48;618857I'm not necessarily claiming MM1 is pointless (you can make it work if you're willing to fix stuff); I'm claiming that whatever value it provides is superseded by the monster vaults, which cover basically the same monsters in a much better way. So if you're standing on the outside trying to buy something it doesn't make sense to invest in the early manuals if you have a choice to buy the vaults.
Especially if you're only buying for the purposes of backstory/ideas for monsters it's hard to recommend the earlier books (MV2 would be worthwhile for this purpose; there's some pretty cool ideas in there that wouldn't be too hard to move to other systems.)
Completely valid points, certainly no disagreement from me.
The one thing I'd mention is that, at this point, I don't yet expect the Vaults to end up in bargain bins, as they are newer products. The MM 1, however, you can get at 5 dollar a piece*, and for that amount of money, it may be worth picking up, even to someone not interested in the system, for the mini-essays on the monsters and (occasionally) on cosmology. E.g. the entries on Orcurs contain a background the deities, and the one on the devils and demons contain background on the lower planes. But yes, I'd browse the book before putting a fiver to it.
*At least, if you're within the EU. There's a German online shop, called 711games, which I've used for that purpose in the last couple of weeks, i.e. to basically order quantities of 4e core books that will last me for... decades... of gifting.
Quote from: Windjammer;618707There are several quick fixes,
These look pretty handy, thank you. I'll refer this to our current DM who is looking for more lethal options in 4e.
Quote from: Windjammer;618707...solos need two fixes. First one, 'action recovery', and second 'acts three times per round'.
This is mostly for MM1 correct? I tend to like the extra actions as opposed to additional turns since some players sometimes try to exploit start of turn effects as vigorously as stun/daze/dom. For the one you design from the round up do you prefer abilities that negate effect when applied or just the get out of jail free cards you described as 'action recovery' above.