Quote from: Abyssal MawClose! Not bicker. Bickering involves some sort of a back and forth struggle over something. Who is right? Who is wrong? Who cares?

What I'm doing is sharing out the disrespect in a focused way, under the assumption that there's not much for us to lose in doing so. We've already been disrespected, after all.

But what they lose is influence and credibility.

Not the most intelligent plan? I don't like to brag about my successes, but I already have a few skulls painted on the side of my cave-man club. I know of a couple of blogs that basicly pulled up stakes. And I can see self-policing from people who never did it before. It's working.

Macmurray, your'e kind of a funny character. I suspect you don't understand what I'm gunning for. You seem to want to defend those guys, and you tend to get involved in these little spats, but it makes no difference whether you do or you don't. Your'e an extra.

So you're just going to give people you don't like abuse in order to help 'us' by which you mean gamers?

As a gamer I'm not really very comfortable with you leaping to my defence by abusing people in my name and what happens if you decide to heap vitriol on somebody who's products and attitude I like? It's not like your our elected representative or anything.

Caveman #1: I'll have the roast duck with mago salsa

Caveman #2: I don't have much of an appetite. Thanks.

QuoteI like to mix #2 (laugh and ignore it) with a healthy dose of #3: Keep explaining why I love what I love.

If people are really dissing your old-school fun (and I don't see a lot of it here, but I've certainly seen it elsewhere) then why not bust out some actual play reports of juicy, old-school goodness! Show what you love and enjoy about your style. People respond to enthusiasm and happiness ... I know I do.

First of all, I don't see my fun as being "old school". I'm very much in the present, part of the mainstream. Behind me stand a thousand others. Behind each of those stand another thousand. We are what is happening now.

This disconnect is part of the problem.

Quote from: Garry GSo you're just going to give people you don't like abuse in order to help 'us' by which you mean gamers?

As a gamer I'm not really very comfortable with you leaping to my defence by abusing people in my name and what happens if you decide to heap vitriol on somebody who's products and attitude I like? It's not like your our elected representative or anything.

Well, it's more of a personal quest, Garry.

Oh good. At least you're not engaging in pointlessly futile and illogical acts on my behalf.

Quote from: James McMurrayOh good. At least you're not engaging in pointlessly futile and illogical acts on my behalf.

I think you've got that shit covered, James!

Quote from: Abyssal MawFirst of all, I don't see my fun as being "old school". I'm very much in the present, part of the mainstream. Behind me stand a thousand others. Behind each of those stand another thousand. We are what is happening now.

Ah, my apologies.  I thought that with the pride that you're championing the cave-man as your mascot, you'd similarly take pride in the "old-school" label (one I've always seen as a term of great respect).  I certainly meant no offense, and hope you won't take any.

So that's your "first of all."  Does that mean there will be more response forthcoming?  I'm pretty interested in your take on the patterns of aggression (and particularly cycles of escalating aggression) vs. consciously positive posting (the whole "beam of sunshine" thing).  I sure hope that issue doesn't get lost amidst other threads of response.  That would make me sad

Quote from: TonyLBI sure hope that issue doesn't get lost amidst other threads of response.

Don't worry, it will get lost under a tide of "I'd better not engage in that conversation, as it will prove that I'm being an ass for the sake of being an ass, not because I honestly believe the inane idea that it will make others stop being asses."

Quote from: TonyLBAh, my apologies.  I thought that with the pride that you're championing the cave-man as your mascot, you'd similarly take pride in the "old-school" label (one I've always seen as a term of great respect).  I certainly meant no offense, and hope you won't take any.

So that's your "first of all."  Does that mean there will be more response forthcoming?  I'm pretty interested in your take on the patterns of aggression (and particularly cycles of escalating aggression) vs. consciously positive posting (the whole "beam of sunshine" thing).  I sure hope that issue doesn't get lost amidst other threads of response.  That would make me sad

I actually erased a second point I had. I tend to write these posts while I'm doing other stuff, and I forgot to go back and edit it. For the time being, I thought that was a decent response. There's a disconnect because.. look, right there. Disconnect.

However, I really don't think that responding with positive examples would change anything. I've learned this from repeated experience. No matter what, the canned response is always "oh, well just because you actually had a series of functional gaming groups over the last 6 years doesn't mean mainstream gaming groups aren't all dysfunctional. "

Or weird accusations: "Oh that's great. Of course, if you don't accept 'Conflict resolution' then you MUST be defaulting to GM fiat. Which equals Illusionism. Which equals Brain damage!"

Or "just because your campaign has an epic plotline, that doesn't mean that's how anyone else plays it...Your game is just a boardgame. MY game is real roleplaying. "

Or sort of a "well, some people like Moldy Bread."

The reason people can get away with talking like that is becase they have an overinflated view of themselves or their own credibility.

Quote from: Abyssal MawThe reason people can get away with talking like that is becase they have an overinflated view of themselves or their own credibility.

True. But responding in kind won't change it. If they started off thinking they're better than you, why are they going to care what "that trad-gaming loser" says. Phrase it well and they might accidentally read it. Coat it with rants about fucktards and their eyes glaze over with a "there he goes again" haze.

Quote from: Abyssal MawHowever, I really don't think that responding with positive examples would change anything.

Well, I guess the question is "What are you trying to change?"

If the important thing to you is that people who disagree with you shut up then, yeah, saying positive things about your experience isn't going to do anything one way or another.

If the important thing to you is that people who agree with you are vocal and excited then saying positive things about your experience is really the only thing that will have any effect.

So ... you've got a limited amount of time and energy to post.  Which is more important to you?

Quote from: TonyLBWell, I guess the question is "What are you trying to change?"

If the important thing to you is that people who disagree with you shut up then, yeah, saying positive things about your experience isn't going to do anything one way or another.

If the important thing to you is that people who agree with you are vocal and excited then saying positive things about your experience is really the only thing that will have any effect.

So ... you've got a limited amount of time and energy to post.  Which is more important to you?

Crushing the weak! More skull stickers for my cave-club!

I'm not trying to change anyone. I'm trying to get rid of certain people altogether. They can go and start their own hobby instead of trying to take over mine. That's my goal. I don't give a fuck about stopping conflict. The conflict will end when they have left, or I'm dead.

RPGPundit

Quote from: TonyLBWell, I guess the question is "What are you trying to change?"

If the important thing to you is that people who disagree with you shut up then, yeah, saying positive things about your experience isn't going to do anything one way or another.

If the important thing to you is that people who agree with you are vocal and excited then saying positive things about your experience is really the only thing that will have any effect.

So ... you've got a limited amount of time and energy to post.  Which is more important to you?

See? That's why I like you, Tony. I certainly don't always agree with you on game design, but I like and respect you because of your attitude. If Abyssal Maw, whom I tend to agree with more often than not about game design, is worried about people disrespecting trad gaming, then he should go after those who are publicly disrespecting it, not manufacturing excuses for attacking those who don't publicly disrespect trad gaming.

Look, AM, there are some people who crap on trad gaming and love Forge gaming. There are also those who love trad gaming and crap on Forge gaming. But there are also folks who may love one or the other - or both - without crapping on the other. To the best of my knowledge, Tony is in the last camp. Yes, he boosts Forge games, but I don't see any negativity towards trad gaming in his posts.  

What happens when you dump on Tony for something he doesn't do is make yourself look stupid. Go after the guys who do crap on Trad games! Knock yourself out! There are people out there who deserve a savaging. I just think you picked the wrong target here.

-clash

I'm beginning to wonder why anybody really gives that much of a shit. This isn't a massive hobby but it certainly is large enough to accept quite a few different approaches without affecting any of you who see yourselves as any one type of gamer so what exactly is the problem?

Well, Garry, there is a problem with that. Live and let live has brought us to this point where they only took advantage.

The Flying Mouse has wise counsel. It seems unjust to mistreat Tony just for the misdeeds of a few crap-eating forgie half-wits.

And yet, I'm still unwilling to accept the roast duck with mago salsa.

I guess we'll see what the future holds!