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The Lounge => Media and Inspiration => Topic started by: Abyssal Maw on January 03, 2007, 09:20:17 pm

Title: OK, I admit it. I'm being an ass.
Post by: Abyssal Maw on January 03, 2007, 09:20:17 pm
Seriously. I have nothing against Tony personally, and I'm basicly treating him with guilt by association.

I feel bad about it sometimes because (in real life) I swear I'm like a cheery little sunbeam.  Seriously.

But you gotta understand this. I am no longer willing to accept a world in which those people are allowed to make shitty pronouncements about how my side of the Hobby lives, or whether we have brain damage, or whatever the hell those guys want to say about us. On top of that, I seriously doubt the talents of many .. maybe most of those fucks, and I do hold a grudge. I think the theories are stupid. Ron Edwards struck me as a windbag and hardly as talented as people want to give him credit for.  I have noted that one of the main guys saying "I hate gamers" had three blogs devoted to gaming. The guy that says he wants to 'de-geek gaming' is notable for being a complete nerd.  

So how is that these guys feel so comfortable shitting all over my hobby? And why shouldn't I speak up?

So I apologize. In a way. I am being unfair.

But I also want to be clear, that the basic issue is respect. To the extent that they disrespect my fellow cavemen, I vow to show no respect in return. I vow to sabotage, denigrate, troll, and ridicule. Maybe it won't be much-- maybe I'll be the lone heckler in the crowd. But I promise, it'll be enough for me, and it doesn't take much to take the wind out of their sails. I've found that much out from experience.

There's also the reality that the story-games aren't actually catching on to throw in their faces from time to time. But that's almost cruel. All the podcasts, all the flood-marketing posts and backslapping can't change it. All that money, all that energy, and they're still only a footnote.

Finally, Pundit is paying me 5$ Uruguayan for everytime I troll those guys. But with the exchange rate, you know. I gotta really work for it.

"Peace? Peace. I hate the word, as I hate hell, all Montagues, and thee."
--Tybalt, Romeo and Juliet
Title: OK, I admit it. I'm being an ass.
Post by: James McMurray on January 03, 2007, 09:26:27 pm
I'm sorry, you're just not going to be able to out-Pundit the Pundit. If you want any sort of recognition as a Forge Hater you're going to have to break off from therpgsite and try to start your own splinter sect.
Title: OK, I admit it. I'm being an ass.
Post by: David R on January 03, 2007, 09:37:17 pm
Quote from: Abyssal Maw

But you gotta understand this. I am no longer willing to accept a world in which those people are allowed to make shitty pronouncements about how my side of the Hobby lives,...


:shrug: At least you got a side. Me - I'm on my own. I've got to be wary. All these snipers with bad aim...

Regards,
David R
Title: OK, I admit it. I'm being an ass.
Post by: RPGPundit on January 03, 2007, 10:24:43 pm
I admire your fed-upness, Maw, and your willingness to answer these fuckers. The implication that not only that the type of games I enjoy are inferior but that, if they had their way, the preferred job for me in my play (GM) would be reduced to something akin to the "Banker" in monopoly, makes it very clear that they are out for my blood; so I will be after theirs.

RPGPundit
Title: OK, I admit it. I'm being an ass.
Post by: TonyLB on January 04, 2007, 08:36:57 am
Quote from: Abyssal Maw
To the extent that they disrespect my fellow cavemen, I vow to show no respect in return. I vow to sabotage, denigrate, troll, and ridicule.
Well ... okay, if you must.  I'd like to ask something, though, if I may:  In the long run, what do you hope to see come out of that?
Title: OK, I admit it. I'm being an ass.
Post by: Abyssal Maw on January 04, 2007, 09:59:48 am
Good question!

Keep in mind that some of this is rhetoric, but my goal is totally serious.

I foresee a day when people representing a creative community will think twice about making shitty pronouncements about the rest of the community.  

Some of you guys will still do it. I know I can't stop people from being exactly who they are. But they'll do it like.. you know.. in a private post. In IM. Furtively, out of the public eye. Somewhere where they can't be answered back. And when one of them slips a little, there will be some self policing. And when you guys individually get tired of having to watch everything you say, you'll do the right thing and get out.

By the way, to a degree, I think this is already happening, or beginning to happen.
Title: OK, I admit it. I'm being an ass.
Post by: James McMurray on January 04, 2007, 10:01:44 am
Quote from: Abyssal Maw
I foresee a day when people representing a creative community will think twice about making shitty pronouncements about the rest of the community.


And you really think that acting like an ass and making shitty pronouncements about a portion of your community will cause that to happen?
Title: OK, I admit it. I'm being an ass.
Post by: Abyssal Maw on January 04, 2007, 10:07:45 am
Quote from: James McMurray
And you really think that acting like an ass and making shitty pronouncements about a portion of your community will cause that to happen?


Yep.

Because:

1) I have nothing to sell, and thus nothing to lose.  
2) I have no supremacist theory to defend or prove.  
3) I can only shoot them with the ammunition they give me.

Once they stop giving me ammunition, I can't really say anything to or about them anymore. But the goal is for them to stop giving me ammunition in the first place. So even when I lose, I win.

Are you that fucking obtuse? I'm laying out my entire battle plan here.
Title: OK, I admit it. I'm being an ass.
Post by: Garry G on January 04, 2007, 10:15:37 am
Quote from: Abyssal Maw
Yep.

Because:

1) I have nothing to sell, and thus nothing to lose.  
2) I have no supremacist theory to defend or prove.  
3) I can only shoot them with the ammunition they give me.

Once they stop giving me ammunition, I can't really say anything to or about them anymore. But the goal is for them to stop giving me ammunition in the first place. So even when I lose, I win.

Are you that fucking obtuse? I'm laying out my entire battle plan here.


So your plan is to bicker with people who are bickering in order to put a stop to bickering?
Title: OK, I admit it. I'm being an ass.
Post by: James McMurray on January 04, 2007, 10:23:46 am
You forgot that he also intends to insult people who are insulting people in order to put an end to insults.

It ain't exactly the most intelligent strategy I've heard. But some folks just like to rationalize being an asshole into some sort of noble deed.
Title: OK, I admit it. I'm being an ass.
Post by: Abyssal Maw on January 04, 2007, 10:28:25 am
Quote from: Garry G
So your plan is to bicker with people who are bickering in order to put a stop to bickering?


Close! Not bicker. Bickering involves some sort of a back and forth struggle over something. Who is right? Who is wrong? Who cares?

What I'm doing is sharing out the disrespect in a focused way, under the assumption that there's not much for us to lose in doing so. We've already been disrespected, after all.

But what they lose is influence and credibility.

Not the most intelligent plan? I don't like to brag about my successes, but I already have a few skulls painted on the side of my cave-man club. I know of a couple of blogs that basicly pulled up stakes. And I can see self-policing from people who never did it before. It's working.

Macmurray, your'e kind of a funny character. I suspect you don't understand what I'm gunning for. You seem to want to defend those guys, and you tend to get involved in these little spats, but it makes no difference whether you do or you don't. Your'e an extra.
Title: OK, I admit it. I'm being an ass.
Post by: James McMurray on January 04, 2007, 10:31:14 am
You really think that you have nothing to lose from that proposition? Or that you insulting them will make them lose influence and credibility? Their entire mindset is that of a martyr. How will you defeat it by granting them martyrdom (without the finality of death that usually comes with it)?
Title: OK, I admit it. I'm being an ass.
Post by: TonyLB on January 04, 2007, 10:32:15 am
Quote from: Abyssal Maw
Once they stop giving me ammunition, I can't really say anything to or about them anymore.
Honestly?  I don't think that sort of plan works real well in a world where, y'know, misunderstandings happen.

If you've got two sides, and folks on both sides are saying "I won't shoot first, but whoo-nellie, if they shoot first then they're gonna get one hell of a counter-attack," it should theoretically be perfectly fine for everyone.  The only people who could ever get attacked by those virtuous counter-attackers are the nasty, aggressive types that shoot first without justification, and they deserve it!

But in reality, the moment there is some slight misunderstanding (the classic case being "a soldier sees a snake in the grass, about to bite him, and shoots it") what happens is that everyone escalates from the misunderstanding, and both sides cut into each other with the unquestioning ferocity of people convinced that they bear no responsibility for what is happening.

Not to put too fine a point on it, but your personal track record on correctly judging whether people are attacking you or not is ... not perfect.  Do you really want to put yourself into that sort of situation?  It seems likely to get you stressed out and angry.
Title: OK, I admit it. I'm being an ass.
Post by: James McMurray on January 04, 2007, 10:34:18 am
Basically the possible responses to being disrespected are

1) disrespect right back. This leaves both parties looking like asses. Generally the ones that do this are the ones that already look like asses. Getting someone to look like an ass who already looks like one is neither a victory nor a feat worthy of recognition.

2) laugh and ignore it. This leaves the disrespecting party looking like an ass.

You've bought into the propaganda that says you can win a diplomatic war by busting out the verbal nukes. It just ain't so.
Title: OK, I admit it. I'm being an ass.
Post by: TonyLB on January 04, 2007, 10:37:44 am
I like to mix #2 (laugh and ignore it) with a healthy dose of #3:  Keep explaining why I love what I love.

If people are really dissing your old-school fun (and I don't see a lot of it here, but I've certainly seen it elsewhere) then why not bust out some actual play reports of juicy, old-school goodness!  Show what you love and enjoy about your style.  People respond to enthusiasm and happiness ... I know I do.

Yeah, it's not as satisfying as a "boot to the head" response ... but it has the benefit of making everyone a little happier, rather than a little bit more angry.
Title: OK, I admit it. I'm being an ass.
Post by: Garry G on January 04, 2007, 10:41:00 am
Quote from: Abyssal Maw
Close! Not bicker. Bickering involves some sort of a back and forth struggle over something. Who is right? Who is wrong? Who cares?

What I'm doing is sharing out the disrespect in a focused way, under the assumption that there's not much for us to lose in doing so. We've already been disrespected, after all.

But what they lose is influence and credibility.

Not the most intelligent plan? I don't like to brag about my successes, but I already have a few skulls painted on the side of my cave-man club. I know of a couple of blogs that basicly pulled up stakes. And I can see self-policing from people who never did it before. It's working.

Macmurray, your'e kind of a funny character. I suspect you don't understand what I'm gunning for. You seem to want to defend those guys, and you tend to get involved in these little spats, but it makes no difference whether you do or you don't. Your'e an extra.


So you're just going to give people you don't like abuse in order to help 'us' by which you mean gamers?

As a gamer I'm not really very comfortable with you leaping to my defence by abusing people in my name and what happens if you decide to heap vitriol on somebody who's products and attitude I like? It's not like your our elected representative or anything.
Title: OK, I admit it. I'm being an ass.
Post by: Abyssal Maw on January 04, 2007, 11:05:13 am
Caveman #1: I'll have the roast duck with mago salsa

Caveman #2: I don't have much of an appetite. Thanks.


Quote

I like to mix #2 (laugh and ignore it) with a healthy dose of #3: Keep explaining why I love what I love.

If people are really dissing your old-school fun (and I don't see a lot of it here, but I've certainly seen it elsewhere) then why not bust out some actual play reports of juicy, old-school goodness! Show what you love and enjoy about your style. People respond to enthusiasm and happiness ... I know I do.


First of all, I don't see my fun as being "old school". I'm very much in the present, part of the mainstream. Behind me stand a thousand others. Behind each of those stand another thousand. We are what is happening now.

This disconnect is part of the problem.
Title: OK, I admit it. I'm being an ass.
Post by: Abyssal Maw on January 04, 2007, 11:06:30 am
Quote from: Garry G
So you're just going to give people you don't like abuse in order to help 'us' by which you mean gamers?

As a gamer I'm not really very comfortable with you leaping to my defence by abusing people in my name and what happens if you decide to heap vitriol on somebody who's products and attitude I like? It's not like your our elected representative or anything.


Well, it's more of a personal quest, Garry.
Title: OK, I admit it. I'm being an ass.
Post by: James McMurray on January 04, 2007, 11:10:23 am
Oh good. At least you're not engaging in pointlessly futile and illogical acts on my behalf. :D
Title: OK, I admit it. I'm being an ass.
Post by: Abyssal Maw on January 04, 2007, 11:46:57 am
Quote from: James McMurray
Oh good. At least you're not engaging in pointlessly futile and illogical acts on my behalf. :D


I think you've got that shit covered, James!
Title: OK, I admit it. I'm being an ass.
Post by: TonyLB on January 04, 2007, 11:51:26 am
Quote from: Abyssal Maw
First of all, I don't see my fun as being "old school". I'm very much in the present, part of the mainstream. Behind me stand a thousand others. Behind each of those stand another thousand. We are what is happening now.
Ah, my apologies.  I thought that with the pride that you're championing the cave-man as your mascot, you'd similarly take pride in the "old-school" label (one I've always seen as a term of great respect).  I certainly meant no offense, and hope you won't take any.

So that's your "first of all."  Does that mean there will be more response forthcoming?  I'm pretty interested in your take on the patterns of aggression (and particularly cycles of escalating aggression) vs. consciously positive posting (the whole "beam of sunshine" thing).  I sure hope that issue doesn't get lost amidst other threads of response.  That would make me sad :(
Title: OK, I admit it. I'm being an ass.
Post by: James McMurray on January 04, 2007, 11:57:27 am
Quote from: TonyLB
I sure hope that issue doesn't get lost amidst other threads of response.


Don't worry, it will get lost under a tide of "I'd better not engage in that conversation, as it will prove that I'm being an ass for the sake of being an ass, not because I honestly believe the inane idea that it will make others stop being asses." :)
Title: OK, I admit it. I'm being an ass.
Post by: Abyssal Maw on January 04, 2007, 01:06:58 pm
Quote from: TonyLB
Ah, my apologies.  I thought that with the pride that you're championing the cave-man as your mascot, you'd similarly take pride in the "old-school" label (one I've always seen as a term of great respect).  I certainly meant no offense, and hope you won't take any.

So that's your "first of all."  Does that mean there will be more response forthcoming?  I'm pretty interested in your take on the patterns of aggression (and particularly cycles of escalating aggression) vs. consciously positive posting (the whole "beam of sunshine" thing).  I sure hope that issue doesn't get lost amidst other threads of response.  That would make me sad :(


I actually erased a second point I had. I tend to write these posts while I'm doing other stuff, and I forgot to go back and edit it. For the time being, I thought that was a decent response. There's a disconnect because.. look, right there. Disconnect.

However, I really don't think that responding with positive examples would change anything. I've learned this from repeated experience. No matter what, the canned response is always "oh, well just because you actually had a series of functional gaming groups over the last 6 years doesn't mean mainstream gaming groups aren't all dysfunctional. "

Or weird accusations: "Oh that's great. Of course, if you don't accept 'Conflict resolution' then you MUST be defaulting to GM fiat. Which equals Illusionism. Which equals Brain damage!"

Or "just because your campaign has an epic plotline, that doesn't mean that's how anyone else plays it...Your game is just a boardgame. MY game is real roleplaying. "

Or sort of a "well, some people like Moldy Bread."

The reason people can get away with talking like that is becase they have an overinflated view of themselves or their own credibility.
Title: OK, I admit it. I'm being an ass.
Post by: James McMurray on January 04, 2007, 01:22:02 pm
Quote from: Abyssal Maw
The reason people can get away with talking like that is becase they have an overinflated view of themselves or their own credibility.


True. But responding in kind won't change it. If they started off thinking they're better than you, why are they going to care what "that trad-gaming loser" says. Phrase it well and they might accidentally read it. Coat it with rants about fucktards and their eyes glaze over with a "there he goes again" haze.
Title: OK, I admit it. I'm being an ass.
Post by: TonyLB on January 04, 2007, 01:33:06 pm
Quote from: Abyssal Maw
However, I really don't think that responding with positive examples would change anything.
Well, I guess the question is "What are you trying to change?"

If the important thing to you is that people who disagree with you shut up then, yeah, saying positive things about your experience isn't going to do anything one way or another.

If the important thing to you is that people who agree with you are vocal and excited then saying positive things about your experience is really the only thing that will have any effect.

So ... you've got a limited amount of time and energy to post.  Which is more important to you?
Title: OK, I admit it. I'm being an ass.
Post by: Abyssal Maw on January 04, 2007, 01:50:47 pm
Quote from: TonyLB
Well, I guess the question is "What are you trying to change?"

If the important thing to you is that people who disagree with you shut up then, yeah, saying positive things about your experience isn't going to do anything one way or another.

If the important thing to you is that people who agree with you are vocal and excited then saying positive things about your experience is really the only thing that will have any effect.

So ... you've got a limited amount of time and energy to post.  Which is more important to you?


Crushing the weak! More skull stickers for my cave-club!

:)
Title: OK, I admit it. I'm being an ass.
Post by: RPGPundit on January 04, 2007, 02:44:39 pm
I'm not trying to change anyone. I'm trying to get rid of certain people altogether. They can go and start their own hobby instead of trying to take over mine. That's my goal. I don't give a fuck about stopping conflict. The conflict will end when they have left, or I'm dead.

RPGPundit
Title: OK, I admit it. I'm being an ass.
Post by: flyingmice on January 04, 2007, 02:50:51 pm
Quote from: TonyLB
Well, I guess the question is "What are you trying to change?"

If the important thing to you is that people who disagree with you shut up then, yeah, saying positive things about your experience isn't going to do anything one way or another.

If the important thing to you is that people who agree with you are vocal and excited then saying positive things about your experience is really the only thing that will have any effect.

So ... you've got a limited amount of time and energy to post.  Which is more important to you?


See? That's why I like you, Tony. I certainly don't always agree with you on game design, but I like and respect you because of your attitude. If Abyssal Maw, whom I tend to agree with more often than not about game design, is worried about people disrespecting trad gaming, then he should go after those who are publicly disrespecting it, not manufacturing excuses for attacking those who don't publicly disrespect trad gaming.

Look, AM, there are some people who crap on trad gaming and love Forge gaming. There are also those who love trad gaming and crap on Forge gaming. But there are also folks who may love one or the other - or both - without crapping on the other. To the best of my knowledge, Tony is in the last camp. Yes, he boosts Forge games, but I don't see any negativity towards trad gaming in his posts.  

What happens when you dump on Tony for something he doesn't do is make yourself look stupid. Go after the guys who do crap on Trad games! Knock yourself out! There are people out there who deserve a savaging. I just think you picked the wrong target here.

-clash
Title: OK, I admit it. I'm being an ass.
Post by: Garry G on January 04, 2007, 03:21:18 pm
I'm beginning to wonder why anybody really gives that much of a shit. This isn't a massive hobby but it certainly is large enough to accept quite a few different approaches without affecting any of you who see yourselves as any one type of gamer so what exactly is the problem?
Title: OK, I admit it. I'm being an ass.
Post by: Abyssal Maw on January 04, 2007, 03:31:12 pm
Well, Garry, there is a problem with that. Live and let live has brought us to this point where they only took advantage.

The Flying Mouse has wise counsel. It seems unjust to mistreat Tony just for the misdeeds of a few crap-eating forgie half-wits.

And yet, I'm still unwilling to accept the roast duck with mago salsa.

I guess we'll see what the future holds!
Title: OK, I admit it. I'm being an ass.
Post by: Garry G on January 04, 2007, 04:00:54 pm
Quote from: Abyssal Maw
Well, Garry, there is a problem with that. Live and let live has brought us to this point where they only took advantage.

The Flying Mouse has wise counsel. It seems unjust to mistreat Tony just for the misdeeds of a few crap-eating forgie half-wits.

And yet, I'm still unwilling to accept the roast duck with mago salsa.

I guess we'll see what the future holds!


But what exactly are they doing that ruins your gaming? To be frank I like having as wide a variety of games to choose just as much as sometimes I like listening to reggae and sometimes jazz. How are these people ruining your fun?

You do play games for fun likesay right?
Title: OK, I admit it. I'm being an ass.
Post by: James McMurray on January 04, 2007, 04:03:54 pm
It's not so much the intrusion of Forge types into someone's game. I don't think that's even an issue unless you happen to share a game store and/or gaming night with disparate types. The primary annoyance the anti-Forgers have is the intrusions onto their forums and into their conversations.

I've never done a lot of reading at RPG.net, but from some accounts you can't sneeze without two people telling you about GNS.
Title: OK, I admit it. I'm being an ass.
Post by: Garry G on January 04, 2007, 06:20:58 pm
Quote from: James McMurray

I've never done a lot of reading at RPG.net, but from some accounts you can't sneeze without two people telling you about GNS.


Whilst I'm more of a lurker on the RPG stuff this is a myth and I'm seeing a lot mor theory masturbating here because of the lower membership. There's divisions being created in the hobby that are only there for the .5% that are at either end and it just looks stupid especially since the vast majority of roleplayers don't give a crap about what goes on with the net because they're not the basement dwelling troglodytes that some like to picture them they're just peeps getting on with their lives and using the net to check film times, buy stuff of off Amazon and look at porn.

I just got myself sucked in didn't I?:(
Title: OK, I admit it. I'm being an ass.
Post by: Kyle Aaron on January 04, 2007, 06:46:55 pm
Quote from: TonyLB
Honestly?  I don't think that sort of plan works real well in a world where, y'know, misunderstandings happen.

[...]

But in reality, the moment there is some slight misunderstanding (the classic case being "a soldier sees a snake in the grass, about to bite him, and shoots it") what happens is that everyone escalates from the misunderstanding, and both sides cut into each other with the unquestioning ferocity of people convinced that they bear no responsibility for what is happening.[...]

This idea that conflicts only occur because of misunderstandings is a very nice idea, very comforting to people who dislike conflict.

Unfortunately it's wrong.

Usually conflicts happen because two or more people or groups have different ideas of how things should be done. If the other guy's ideas seem to be winning out at the moment, then you get pissed off and arc up, attack! attack! attack! Sometimes conflicts are inevitable. Sometimes the only way to resolve the conflict is to fight it out.

Is the guy right this time? I dunno. Insults themselves won't do much.

"Dear Ron Edwards, you are a cock. Love, JimBobOz."
"Dear JimBobOz, you're right! I'll withdraw the GNS essay immediately! Love, Uncle Ronny."

Probably not.

But insults and general hostility can have the positive benefit of driving away the conflicting people from forums, etc. If someone comes to therpgsite just to Spread The Word, he's (it's always a "he" who comes to spread a word, women spend a lot of time in society being shut up, so the missionary spirit is suppressed in them) - he's going to get a hard time.

Part of the way a community - online or otherwise - establishes itself is by excluding people. Rpg.net excludes people who break one of the ten rules, the Forge excludes people who question Uncle Ronny, therpgsite excludes people who use too many long words, a small town excludes criminals, a religious community excludes non-believers, etc. The community defines "us" by saying "we are not them", "them" being the ones excluded. So insults, etc, from a poster mean that the guy can take part in the exclusion.  He gets to be a leader in the community.

Whether this is useful or good, I don't know. But it's the way things happen. For my part, while I am happy to exclude those I dislike, I'm more interested in promoting what I do like. So I devote words and thought to Why Game Groups Fuck Up, and so on. That usually excludes by implication, but it comes to the same thing. Uncle Ronny would take one look at the front page of that and walk away. And that's good.

The idea that all conflict is caused by misunderstanding leads to the idea that if only everyone keeps talking, eventually everyone will understand each-other and get along famously. It's simply not true. Often we understand someone perfectly well, and that's exactly why we can't stand them. Their ideas are simply offensive or stupid to us.

TonyLB cops the shit for the Forgers because he's constantly defending and apologising for them. "No, wait, I don't think that means what you think it means."
Title: OK, I admit it. I'm being an ass.
Post by: James McMurray on January 04, 2007, 06:57:14 pm
Who said that all conflict was caused by misunderstanding?
Title: OK, I admit it. I'm being an ass.
Post by: TonyLB on January 04, 2007, 06:57:35 pm
Quote from: JimBobOz
This idea that conflicts only occur because of misunderstandings is a very nice idea, very comforting to people who dislike conflict.
You've totally misunderstood what I was saying.

I'm not claiming "If everyone just understood each other there would never be any problems."  That's clearly not true.

What I'm saying is that conflicts due to misunderstanding do happen.  And that, therefore, saying "A conflict occurred, I know I didn't choose to start it and therefore the other guy must have chosen to start it and I'm justified in beating him down because he's an unjustified aggressor" is a very shakey position.

Does that make the point more clear to you?
Title: OK, I admit it. I'm being an ass.
Post by: David R on January 04, 2007, 07:06:54 pm
Quote from: Garry G

I just got myself sucked in didn't I?:(


Yeah, enjoy the suck :D

JimBob has got his BNG - Bitter Non-Gamer, me, I hate those Bitter Gamers - BG :mad:

They are the kind of folks from both sides :rolleyes: of the so-called war, who most probably game, but can only spew out bile on online forums. They are not really interested in discussion, just to piss in everyone's soup esp the other side.

Their posting style is hostile, their tone offensive and generally they hang about waiting for misunderstandings - the kind Tony mentioned -to occur so they can start shit up.

They are great for board promotion and for drawing in onlookers, but they will never contribute anything constructive to online discussions. Fuckin' Bitter Gamers..

Regards,
David R