Quote from: Rum Cove;563857Yes, calling France "Frogland" in Dark Albion is terribly offensive.  RPGPundit should be ashamed.

Spoken like a true non-Englishman!

I'm just glad to see that Darwinism is OK. He abruptly disappeared after WoTC announced that 4E was getting the arse and I was really concerned for his safety and mental health.

Keep posting Darwinism, we understand your loss and pain so feel free to drop a line when you feel isolated and alone.

This thread has taught me so much including that you can't be racist against whites, who'd a thunk it?

PPS. The claims of anti Irish sentiment in Australia came as a surprise. In my experience there seems to be exaggerated claims of Irish kinship if anything.

Quote from: Fiasco;563939PPS. The claims of anti Irish sentiment in Australia came as a surprise. In my experience there seems to be exaggerated claims of Irish kinship if anything.

Only in some parts of it. This genius was actually a unionist from northern Ireland (part of the UK), and a more vicious gang of hatemongers you'll be hard pressed to find anywhere. Beyond that though in a few districts anti Irish sentiment is alive and well, and I would raise very serious questions as to the veracity of reports targeting any one ethnic group in particular, never mind Irish people in notoriously anti Irish areas. It goes back a long way, Ned Kelly, that Aussie folk hero, was greatly opposed to the virulent anti Irish sentiment in Australia at the time, which has persisted to this day.

Indeed you can be racist against white people.

Quote from: TomatoMalone;563883You cannot be this fucking obtuse. The Viking and the Pict, inaccurate though all their depictions may be, are stereotypes made by other white people. They have never been used to marginalize or oppress minorities. They have never been used to dismiss the entirety of white people as a bunch of savages/thieves/honorable tea-swilling samurai. Stop talking out of your ass and think before you post.

Maybe not the entirety of white people (to my knowledge, I would not be the least bit surprised if there was racist caricatures of white people along those lines produced by non-white people), but otherwise YES REPEATEDLY THROUGHOUT HISTORY.

Such as the slaving imperialist colonialist ROMAN EMPIRE.

Quote from: Benoist;563885I'm sure there are some completely retarded fuckers who'll think along those lines.

I honestly have nothing to answer to these people. I'd rather have them say that to my face and have the opportunity to punch theirs.

And now some drama queen on TBP gets to claim "...even physical threats of violence on me!"

So, a person is creating a fantasy world populated with various ethnicities.  They have a few choices:

1) They include non-white cultures via analogues of real-world cultures, warts and all, that will inevitably draw upon real world stereotypes.  They get called racist for promoting negative stereotypes of non-whites.

2) They include non-white cultures via analogues of real-world cultures, scrubbed of their negatives, so that they are noble and admirable.  They get called racist for promoting unrealistic positive stereotypes of non-whites.

3) They include non-white cultures with entirely made-up cultures that inevitably include some elements of the culture normally associated with some other race.  They get called racist for robbing people of their authentic culture and presenting a blackface version of European culture.

4) They don't include non-white cultures at all.  They get called racist to leaving out non-white people.

Is there really any way to win this game without someone determined to find racism in the setting being able to claim that it's there?

Quote from: Planet Algol;563948And now some drama queen on TBP gets to claim "...even physical threats of violence on me!"

Oh my God. Tell me that isn't true. Did someone really claim that?

Quote from: John Morrow;563959Is there really any way to win this game without someone determined to find racism in the setting being able to claim that it's there?

No. (I know that was a rhetorical question.)

1.) Real racists exist.

2.) Accusing people of racism is easy, even when none exists.

Oddly enough, this thread suddenly became relevant to my interests last night at about 3:00 AM. Like Sacrosanct, I'm working on my own little campaign setting, based on Shadowrun, and just got a cool idea for Africa.

Personally I loathe and despise bigotry, and I'd rather base my worlds on reliable information and plausible cultural and economic principles. But no matter how much I base my Africa on factual information and plausible extrapolation, I can't make it immune from charges of racism.

The same problem holds for revisions of Shadowrun's "Alliance for Allah", when addressing the economics and demographics of the NAN, and so forth. No matter what I do, some asshole can always call me a racist.

So I can either sit it out, and keep my campaign materials for myself, or just post the thing and ignore the assholes.

Fine. Easily offended assholes, fuck you.

[Though + bonus points to John for Savatage. That album isn't my favorite, but I dig Edge of Thorns.]

Quote from: Benoist;563969Oh my God. Tell me that isn't true. Did someone really claim that?

No, I'm, just calling it before it happens due to be driven to do so by my subconscious invisible privilege backpack.

Quote from: Sacrosanct;563907But in the context of racism, living in Korea gave me a huge lesson in perspective.  See, I'm a white guy.  When I grew up in the US, I knew racism existed and was bad and all that.  But it wasn't until I lived in Korea before I realized just what white privilege was.  You know, the things you take for granted but don't realize.  In Korea, I was discriminated against a lot because not only was I an American, but I was a soldier as well.  Not violent discrimination, but smaller things, like the stares of contempt, being charged twice as much as anyone else, being pushed to the back of the train lines, etc.  That gave me some more perspective.  Re: white privilege, I now understood what it felt like to be the only person of your race in a room full of people.

I gained the same type of perspective from living for years on First Nations reservations. When the tables are turned on you, that you are the minority, and you become the target of discrimination, that makes you think and see people and situations differently.

I think this is in part what pisses me off so much when you start calling for the mob's judgment over accusations of racism and just trivialize the whole thing to the point anything and everything under the Sun gets considered racism. Don't get me wrong, there is such a thing as mundane, everyday racism, but just throwing stones at everything that moves, like Golarion and fantasy settings like it, just makes conversations about real issues and real racism harder, because it builds up suspicion and resentment between people.

Pundit was right about the Activist Swine. These are fucking assholes, because they have no clue how much damage they're actually causing and if they did, they wouldn't give a shit anyway. They're just after the internet creds.

Well Ben, it looks like I win a no-prize.

Quote from: Planet Algol;563948And now some drama queen on TBP gets to claim "...even physical threats of violence on me!"

I'm sure they have been saying up until now "they're all complaining about "what about the poor rich white majority, wah!"

Despite the fact that's not what anyone here is actually saying.

Quote from: Daddy Warpig;563970[Though + bonus points to John for Savatage. That album isn't my favorite, but I dig Edge of Thorns.]

+2 to this. I hadn't really been paying attention, but for years I swore I was the only person on the planet who not only had an album, but If I Go Away is one of my favorite ballads.

Quote from: Daddy Warpig;563970[Though + bonus points to John for Savatage. That album isn't my favorite, but I dig Edge of Thorns.]

I liked running Warhammer FRP to the Hall of the Mountain King album, which in my opinion is pretty much (except for the first track) perfect for it.  They've got lots of good stuff mixed across their albums that's also good for games like Warhammer FRP, like The Storm, Sirens, and By the Grace of the Witch.  I also highly recommend the Christmas concerts from their alter-ego the Trans-Siberian Orchestra.  

Sirens also had a good evocative fantasy cover:

I don't know enough about Golarion to comment on this, but that doesn't seem to stop anyone else - so I'll toss in my two cents.  

Quote from: John Morrow;563959So, a person is creating a fantasy world populated with various ethnicities.  They have a few choices:

1) They include non-white cultures via analogues of real-world cultures, warts and all, that will inevitably draw upon real world stereotypes.  They get called racist for promoting negative stereotypes of non-whites.

2) They include non-white cultures via analogues of real-world cultures, scrubbed of their negatives, so that they are noble and admirable.  They get called racist for promoting unrealistic positive stereotypes of non-whites.

3) They include non-white cultures with entirely made-up cultures that inevitably include some elements of the culture normally associated with some other race.  They get called racist for robbing people of their authentic culture and presenting a blackface version of European culture.

4) They don't include non-white cultures at all.  They get called racist to leaving out non-white people.

Is there really any way to win this game without someone determined to find racism in the setting being able to claim that it's there?

On the one hand, nothing is going to please everyone.  You're certainly bound to get complaints from someone.  However, that doesn't mean that everything is a wash and that no fiction or RPG or movie is really racist.  I think there is a huge difference between:

1a) Using analogs of real-world cultures that embrace the stereotypes used by old, racist stories.  

1b) Using analogs of real-world cultures where you deliberately diverge from false old stereotypes and use stereotypes different than these for contrast.  


For example, when I ran my Vikings & Skraelings game, I used a lot of stereotypes in my portrayal of the Icelanders as well as the American Indians of the Northeast.  However, I made a number of deliberate choices such that they clashed with many common false stereotypes.  One was that I played up the contrast of the Algonquian tribes and the Iroquoian tribes - with the latter being warlike cannibals while also still more organized, democratic, and egalitarian.  The Algonquians were more peaceful but also more patriarchal.  I also drew on outside-of-culture stereotypes, so that, say, the leader of the proto-Pequot contingent among the Mohicans evoked fascist tropes with his militarist and nationalist stance.  This is using a negative stereotype while at the same time clashing with both the "noble savage" and the "ignorant primitive" stereotypes.  

I'm sure someone can complain about this, but this use of stereotype isn't in the same class as falling into false old stereotypes like the "noble savage in touch with the land" or "manipulative, lying, thieving gypsies."