Quote from: S'mon;563757I am very interested in medieval Ethiopia/Abyssinia, fantasy versions often appear in my games, and I might well buy a sourcebook on such.  It featured large in medieval European thought, due to its association with the Prester John myth - the Christian kingdom in the east that would save Europe from the Muslims. It seems to be completely off the radar for games designers, though.

I don't remember which issue it was, but back in the 80s there was a dragon magazine that detailed out several of the more popular cultures in Africa in fantasy/D&D terms, including weapons and armor designs.

Quote from: Ladybird;563689All this is true... but Ettin et al are not arguing this matter in good faith. They're not looking for a "less racist" setting or to try and improve Golarion. They simply want to discredit publishers who aren't fans of D&D4, and accusations of racism, rape culture, etc. work great as attacks, because they are almost impossible to actually defend yourself against when the mob gets going.

Wait, what? Even if you're right (and the RPG.net thread provides nothing to make me believe it) about the motives being disingenuous, why should that make the point invalid? Golarion has some racist stereotypes. It's hardly the only one, too. In a lot of old school games, you've got orcs that are 'always chaotic evil'. In Forgotten Realms, you have the drow, which are literally black-skinned evil elves that live underground in a repressive-but-ridiculous matriarchy. Sexism and racism--not overt, but extant in perpetually repeated genre conventions--is a pervasive problem in the games industry.

Besides, there are already non racist settings, like Eberron, Points of Light, Dark Sun, and Planescape--maybe Ettin isn't looking for one because he plays in one that already exists?

Quote from: Sacrosanct;563728That's Shaka Zulu!  If one of the many cultures in the game was inspired from African lore and I use that picture, that is no more racist than using King Arther to represent a European knight.  And you call that "quite lazy" and others call it "racist"?

In African culture there was no straight analog to a European knight which is why it comes off as pretty dam racist if its the only culture that you steal from.  If your not a student of ancient culture before you talk you should read a book and try and learn from it.

Quotethere is certainly nothing wrong with more fleshed out and varied settings. That it was I tend to prefer myself. But many fantasy games boil down kingdoms, races, etc to a handful of traits, and if you are drawing from realworld cultures, i don't know that it is automatically racist to do so. Again, don't know Golarion so I can't really comment there. I mean if someone was drawing on early America they might create soething like: a rigid and strict puritanical culture, gun slinging cowboys or deistic revolutionaries. Doing so isn't neccesarily a commentary on modern day Americans, christians or white people.

I actually don't remember how the United States is portrayed in Golarion.  I know France is in there too.

Quote from: TomatoMalone;563762In a lot of old school games, you've got orcs that are 'always chaotic evil'. In Forgotten Realms, you have the drow, which are literally black-skinned evil elves that live underground in a repressive-but-ridiculous matriarchy. Sexism and racism--not overt, but extant in perpetually repeated genre conventions--is a pervasive problem in the games industry.

Again, looking for racism where there is none.  Orcs were evil (either chaotic or lawful, depending on which version) not to be racist, but because they were evil in LotR and made a good bad guy for the good guy PCs to fight.  it would kind of screw with the game if orcs and goblins were good alignment.  And if you say that LotR's orcs were racist because they were dark skinned, I have to nix that as well, because orcs in LotR were meant to represent industrialization and the pollution that came along with it (hence the "darkness", because everything was covered in soot and grime).

For Drow, they were inspired by the "small, dark, evil fairies" trow, or the Dökkálfar (blacker than pitch) in folklore.  Again, no racism there, but inspired on real mythology.

Quote from: technoextreme;563763In African culture there was no straight analog to a European knight which is why it comes off as pretty dam racist if its the only culture that you steal from.  If your not a student of ancient culture before you talk you should read a book.

Shaka Zulu is probably the most well known warrior in non-Egyptian African legend.  Using him as a representation of a culture is no different than using King Arthur to represent a European culture.  There is nothing racist about it unless you think using King Arthur is also racist.  

And perhaps you should take your own advice.

Quote from: RPGPundit;563637First, is there less variety in the black or asian cultures of Golarion compared to the caucasian cultures?

Golarion does something which is not all that different from Oriental Adventures - it mixes together Chinese and Japanese stuff. To me, that's worse that jumbling together Vikings and Medieval Italians.

Golarion is Pathfinder's Forgotten Realms - they jumble together every possible trope, so you can get your dose of drow, pirates, zombies, gypsies, etc, and they can put out any kind of adventure.

I think the only thing Paizo is guilty of is delivering a generic world with too many familiar tropes.

Quote from: technoextreme;563763.  If your not a student of ancient culture before you talk you should read a book and try and learn from it.

.

Why? I was a student of history in college, and know a lot about the middle east for example but if my friend wants to run an Arabian Nights campaign, I don't expect him to have my level of in depth knowledge. People are just trying to have fun. Some folks will do detailed research others are going to wing it and inject their own ideas.

Quote from: Sacrosanct;563765Shaka Zulu is probably the most well known warrior in non-Egyptian African legend.  Using him as a representation of a culture is no different than using King Arthur to represent a European culture.  There is nothing racist about it unless you think using King Arthur is also racist.  

While we are at it Golarion fucked up a bunch of European cultures too in the most idiotic of ways using this same idiotic technique.

QuoteWhy? I was a student of history in college, and know a lot about the middle east for example but if my friend wants to run an Arabian Nights campaign, I don't expect him to have my level of in depth knowledge. People are just trying to have fun. Some folks will do detailed research others are going to wing it and inject their own ideas.

If the B-52's could open up a book then you should be able to too.

Quote from: technoextreme;563777Its not in depth knowledge.  Its knowledge that most people should have learned in high school which is got me extremely worried at this point at your average education level.  Come on your friend should know better than the B-52's.

Gee that sounds like a broad brush stereotype of the uneducated you are painting. Personally I know guys with advanced degrees who know nothing about ancient history and guys who didn't graduate highschool who are walking encyclopdias on the subject. My point is people come to the table with different levels of knowledge about subjects and this is okay.

Ps: i am glad you could intuit how deep my level of knowledge about the middle east is from that post.

Quote from: BedrockBrendan;563781Gee that sounds like a broad brush stereotype of the uneducated you are painting. Personally I know guys with advanced degrees who know nothing about ancient history and guys who didn't graduate highschool who are walking encyclopdias on the subject. My point is people come to the table with different levels of knowledge about subjects and this is okay.

Ps: i am glad you could intuit how deep my level of knowledge about the middle east is from that post.

I'm surprised Techno didn't specify which books you ought to open.  If discussions on Medieval technology and warfare are any guideline, there's plenty of arguments to go around as to which school of thought you believe in.

Quote from: technoextreme;563777If the B-52's could open up a book then you should be able to too.

Every GM is different. I like research so opening a book is no problem for me. But I won't insist every GM and player has to do the same. Its a gane, not a graduate seminar. I can have just as much fun in a deeply researched ancient greece campaign as with one based soley on movies like Clash of the Titans.

Quote from: technoextreme;563777While we are at it Golarion fucked up a bunch of European cultures too in the most idiotic of ways using this same idiotic technique.

I'm not talking specifically about Golarion.  The post you originally quoted of mine was talking in general terms.  And if I build an in-game culture inspired by the Zulu culture, using real aspects of that culture, and you call it racist or at the very least lazy?

That tells me that you are looking to be offended.  And now you're defending your unreasonable opinion by trying to act elitist?

Whatever.

Quote from: Sacrosanct;563764Again, looking for racism where there is none.  Orcs were evil (either chaotic or lawful, depending on which version) not to be racist, but because they were evil in LotR and made a good bad guy for the good guy PCs to fight.  it would kind of screw with the game if orcs and goblins were good alignment.  And if you say that LotR's orcs were racist because they were dark skinned, I have to nix that as well, because orcs in LotR were meant to represent industrialization and the pollution that came along with it (hence the "darkness", because everything was covered in soot and grime).

Look at what you made me do, you made me register here to tell you how wrong you are.

Look at this from Tolkien's Letter 210:

Quote19. Why does Z put beaks and feathers on Orcs!? (Orcs is not a form of Auks.) The Orcs are definitely stated to be corruptions of the 'human' form seen in Elves and Men. They are (or were) squat, broad, flatnosed, sallow-skinned, with wide mouths and slant eyes: in fact degraded and repulsive versions of the (to Europeans) least lovely Mongol-types.

They're meant to be degenerated stereotypes of mongols. But since you're probably going to go "NUH! THINGS I LIKE CANNOT CONTAIN RACISM!", let's keep going to the second point I was going to make:

The key problem with the Varisian and Mwangi ethnicities is not that they translate the feel of Roma and Subsaharan Africa societies to a heady Pathfinderized medium.

It's that they're direct lifts from historical racist stereotypes. It's as if they had the Garundi loving fried chicken and watermelons. But you clearly are either:

A) Invested enough in settings with racist elements that you prefer to ignore them because of a mistaken belief that you cannot like stuff that has problems. (Protip: this is the charitable interpretation)

B) Incredibly stupid, and thus can't differentiate from inspiration and copying of racist caricatures.

C) A racist who believes that the racist stereotypes actually represent the societies.


Third, and finally, I'm going to enjoy the freedom and lack of civility that this site is so proud of to tell you to go fuck yourself.

EDIT: I've got to agree with you guys, though, this is mighty liberating.

Quote from: Gradivus;563792Look at what you made me do, you made me register here to tell you how wrong you are.

Look at this from Tolkien's Letter 210:

I was going by a documentary on the subject and wasn't aware of those letters.  Either way, having orcs as evil in D&D doesn't make D&D racist.  

QuoteThe key problem with the Varisian and Mwangi ethnicities is not that they translate the feel of Roma and Subsaharan Africa societies to a heady Pathfinderized medium.

It's that they're direct lifts from historical racist stereotypes. It's as if they had the Garundi loving fried chicken and watermelons. But you clearly are either:

A) Invested enough in settings with racist elements that you prefer to ignore them because of a mistaken belief that you cannot like stuff that has problems. (Protip: this is the charitable interpretation)

B) Incredibly stupid, and thus can't differentiate from inspiration and copying of racist caricatures.

C) A racist who believes that the racist stereotypes actually represent the societies.


Third, and finally, I'm going to enjoy the freedom and lack of civility that this site is so proud of to tell you to go fuck yourself.

Maybe before acting like a 4 year old, you should go back and reread my first post.  Again, I specifically said I don't know anything about Golarion specifically, but was talking in generalities.  So all of what you just said?  Not relevant at all, but rather it comes off as you making up an excuse to call other people racists with no basis behind it.  No wonder you fit in at TBP so well.

But hey, with your level of maturity and reading comprehension, I'm sure you'll go a long ways here.

Welcome to TheRPGSite!