Quote from: FrankTrollman;549745For everyone else, the fact that the Dragon flies at hundreds of feet per round and breathes fire means that any plan to "lure" it somewhere probably involves getting set on fire. Cunning plans are certainly possible, but considering that the beast in question is specifically smarter, faster, more perceptive, and better looking than your character, that plan better be pretty damn cunning. And it's probably not going to work anyway.

You fail at imagination, Sir.

Quote from: Benoist;549719It's like vampires draining 2 levels on a hit. "OMG OMG THIS IS SO BROKENZ!!ONE"

Huh. No. Fuck no. That means the vampire is actually a fucking terrifying undead. If you are dumb enough to go in melee with a vampire, you are the moron who is to blame for your stupidity.

As I said elsewhere, the appropriate tactical response when you find a vampire's lair is to get the fuck out of here as quickly as possible to regroup and strategize about (1) the way to avoid the area entirely or make a deal with the vampire if you're evil or whatnot, or divert some other enemies into taking down the vampire for you or weaken it significantly so that then you can finish it/them, (2) the way to take it down appropriately by alerting the local temple, taking all the men-at-arms of the village bearing torches with you to clean up the shit out of the place, with holy water and acolytes and everything, and so on, so forth. When you know what you're up against, then you can actually strategize. But facing a vampire in melee and expect to win? LOL U dumb or wat?

This is absolutely correct.  I think a common problem is that people look at stat blocks of the monsters, look at the abilities on their character sheet in the context of the combat rules, and expect that every monster be defeat-able within that context.

How many times do we hear people complain about wanting everything detailed out?  How many times do we hear people complain, "If I have to think outside of the box for things not explicit, then it's bad design."?

I like monsters that aren't just another meat bubble, and require a creative way to defeat.  I like monsters that make the players say, "Holy shit, get the fuck out of here!"  Being an adventurer is not like mowing the grass--it should have a significant risk of death or disfigurement tied to it.  Otherwise everyone and their grandma's dog would be raising that goblin cave.

Besides, and maybe it's just me, but I find the most fun and memorable encounters to be those that weren't just another combat walk thru, but were overcoming a terrible foe through ingenuity.  That's why I remember that battle with the dragon using a ballista mentioned earlier.  Yeah, I know "only idiots" fight an airborne dragon, but when you really don't have a choice (LG fighter protecting the keep from a dragon strafing), it makes it a memorable battle when you borrow the ranger's boots of leaping and striding, combined with your own girdle of frost giant strength, and pick up said ballista like a crossbow, bouncing up and down the battlements like a gummi bear avoiding the dragon's attacks and keeping it constantly in a line of sight for your rope-trailing ballista bolts, eventually bringing the beast down in a tangle of ropes and bolts.

Quote from: Benoist;549746You fail at imagination, Sir.

If you say you trust your DM to allow you to beat an enemy far more powerful than you, allow me to say that I trust my DM to allow me to lose.

-Frank

Quote from: FrankTrollman;549749If you say you trust your DM to allow you to beat an enemy far more powerful than you, allow me to say that I trust my DM to allow me to lose.

-Frank

I trust my DM to adjudicate fairly, win or lose.

The trouble is that you have a hard time considering anything in the game beyond the rules it employs, and from there can't possibly see how a bunch of lowly non-flying fighters could actually beat the crap out of a dragon by actually strategizing and using real world tactics against it. That's what I call an imagination failure on your part.

Quote from: FrankTrollman;549745For everyone else, the fact that the Dragon flies at hundreds of feet per round and breathes fire means that any plan to "lure" it somewhere probably involves getting set on fire. Cunning plans are certainly possible, but considering that the beast in question is specifically smarter, faster, more perceptive, and better looking than your character, that plan better be pretty damn cunning. And it's probably not going to work anyway.

There it is. Frank Trollman sucks at D&D.

So, how fast does a red dragon fly, anyway? D. conflagratio horribilis clocks in at 24 tabletop inches per round, which works out to screaming 8.2 miles per hour - the same speed as a light horse. As far as moving "hundreds of feet per round," so do human beings - 12 tabletop inches per round is three hundred sixty feet per minute.

As far as "smarter, faster, more perceptive, and better looking than your character," D. conflagratio horribilis's Intelligence is exceptional - equivalent to a score of 15 or 16, or on a par with the party's magic-user in most cases. Faster? We've already covered Draco's flight speed, but on the ground he's actually slower than a human, with a speed of nine inches per round. He's perceptive enough to spot hidden or invisible characters within eight inches, which means you can remain concealed until he's well in range of a charge, and it's possible to sneak up on him while he's sleeping. And while on my character's worst hair day he won't inspire a fear aura, there is nothing to suggest that a dragon's "better looking."

Dragons should be played as crafty. Dragons should be cognizant of the kinds of tactics used against them, and they should be prepared for many of them. But dragons are not omniscient superbeings, at least before the absurd power inflation of 2e. Dragons can be tricked, particularly younger, smaller dragons who are nowhere near as experienced or fearsome as their old and ancient relatives, and they are arrogant and avaricious, at least the way I run them.

And should a fighter have a potion or ring of fire resistance if he wants to face down D. conflagratio horribilis? Wouldn't be a bad idea. Does a fighter need to have an elemental resistance power? Don't be fucking ridiculous.

Thing is, against you guys, Trollman is right.
'Cause there's the RQ-style high-level antipathy flowing in your veins. Frank and I have seen high levels and were not afraid. As Rob Kuntz and EGG did.

They were not afraid of high levels. And they played mean: Robilar. THAT is THE model for a true D&D fighter. If I cannot be like Robilar, the version in question is wrong.

Quote from: Settembrini;549776Thing is, against you guys, Trollman is right.
'Cause there's the RQ-style high-level antipathy flowing in your veins. Frank and I have seen high levels and were not afraid. As Rob Kuntz and EGG did.

They were not afraid of high levels. And they played mean: Robilar. THAT is THE model for a true D&D fighter. If I cannot be like Robilar, the version in question is wrong.

I'm totally for fighters playing mean and hard. And Robilar wasn't winning because of greater cleave, maneuvers encoded in the rules and similar bullshit. He was winning because he was played smart, used armies of orcs to trigger traps in the Tomb of Horrors and the like. Playing outside the box and throwing everything you got at the challenges Gary was throwing at you was the way to play. It was expected you'd bring your A game or die trying, because Gary sure would bring his. That's what was fun for them.

Quote from: Rob Kuntz"His opponents were the players, we all knew that, and he did too. There wasn't an ordering of political correctness and a false cloud of pretentiousness which I've seen portrayed in modern RPGs. This was a game of strategy and tactics, and that meant, on both sides, that outwitting the opponents involved was now at hand..."

This is to make it utterly clear that this is how we (players and DMs) perceived this. The fairness of DMs is never a question, for in doing so you must honor the neutrality of the station maintained. That's part of the game, just as any other games has rules sets; and we are definitely dealing with many Masters here of not only games design, history, game theory and so forth, but mature adults (wel,, I as on my way with all the guys coaxing/coaching, and at a frenetic pace and speed). We are here talking about some of the best game designers of the time--Gygax, Mike Carr, Arneson, Don Lowry, Mike Reese, Leon Tucker, Jeff Perren, and the list goes on.

So, No, there was no abuse, but the idea that we were still opponents, well, that is consistent in all games, and was no different then. I really do not see where the other line of thought ever entered into the picture, really, as a DM, though not adversarial, still role-plays adversarial NPCs/Monsters (and if good, to their fullest), and that through the conduit of his or her mind, as he or she, fortunately, can't afford a brain transplant, let's say, to that of an ORC, at mid-point of the adventure... Gary being a mighty fine opponent only transferred his toughness into those encounters and they were played smartly and without reserve, just as he had done on the tabletop or sand table

Quote from: Benoist;549751[T]here can't possibly see how a bunch of lowly non-flying fighters could actually beat the crap out of a dragon by actually strategizing and using real world tactics against it.

Now we're into the ADRPG conundrum: on what basis do you decide whether or not the dragon falls for your clever trick?  Int rolls?  As Frank pointed out, the dragon's smarter than you.  There's no Tactics skill, and we all hates 3E, we hates it my precious, so a prestige class with an Outwit Dragons class feature is right out.

Tell you what, why don't you both put your money where your mouth is.  Frank, select a writeup for a dragon from some edition that you think reflects the situation you've described, and Benoist can wow us with his amazing tactics that would defeat the dragon.

Quote from: daniel_ream;549778Now we're into the ADRPG conundrum: on what basis do you decide whether or not the dragon falls for your clever trick?  Int rolls?  As Frank pointed out, the dragon's smarter than you.  There's no Tactics skill, and we all hates 3E, we hates it my precious, so a prestige class with an Outwit Dragons class feature is right out.

No. A Red Dragon (MM p.33) has an Exceptional intelligence, which equals to a 15-16 rating per MM (p.6), which is about on par with the average MU using Method I to generate ability scores. Then you do something that might seem outlandish to you braindead theorists but you role play the situation. You get in character, as the Red Dragon, interpreting his personality traits, tastes, strengths and weaknesses. It's called role playing. You should try it some time.

Quote from: daniel_ream;549778Tell you what, why don't you both put your money where your mouth is.  Frank, select a writeup for a dragon from some edition that you think reflects the situation you've described, and Benoist can wow us with his amazing tactics that would defeat the dragon.

I would rather quit RPGs than play with Frank as DM.

Quote from: Benoist;549780I would rather quit RPGs than play with Frank as DM.

'I can totally fly...I just don't want too, so there!'

Black Dragon: 8-10 Intelligence (Average).
Blue Dragon: 11-12 Intelligence (Very).
Green Dragon: 8-12 (Average to Very).
White Dragon: 7-9 (Average -low-).

Quote from: Kord's Boon;549781'I can totally fly...I just don't want too, so there!'

It's the same type of situation than the ridiculous 'test' gleichman had in mind to 'demonstrate' how people just can't keep track of a fight in their mind's eye. Basically, the argument is based on using actual tactics and elements surrounding the situation pitting you against the dragon, with the opportunity to strategize and select circumstances and timing depending on specific campaign circumstances. Arguing about a completely theoretical situation in a vacuum is validating Frank in his theorist attitude, and I am certainly not going to give him that pleasure.

Quote from: Benoist;549780No. A Red Dragon (MM p.33) has an Exceptional intelligence, which equals to a 15-16 rating per MM (p.6), which is about on par with the average MU using Method I to generate ability scores.

So your answer to the charge that it is unreasonable to expect your Fighter to outwit the Dragon is to point out that the Dragon is no smarter than the Magic User. I detect goalpost shifting.

How smart is the Dragon compared to, say, the fighter that you were supposedly talking about?

-Frank

Quote from: Settembrini;549776Thing is, against you guys, Trollman is right.
'Cause there's the RQ-style high-level antipathy flowing in your veins. Frank and I have seen high levels and were not afraid. As Rob Kuntz and EGG did.

You're talking out of your ass, Sett. You might want to see to that.

Quote from: Benoist;549782Black Dragon: 8-10 Intelligence (Average).
Blue Dragon: 11-12 Intelligence (Very).
Green Dragon: 8-12 (Average to Very).
White Dragon: 7-9 (Average -low-).

I assume these are 1e dragons? This whole discussion is kind of pointless unless we know which edition is being talked about. I get the feeling Frank is using a different edition than you or Black Vulmea. Nothing wrong with that but I for one would like some clarification.