Wizard vs Fighter Balance Bullshit

Marleycat · June 18, 2012, 11:00:00 AM

Quote from: Dimitrios;549641The more I read these "pity the poor fighter" threads, the more I'm starting to think that a lot of folks just plain don't think that fighters doing the stuff that fighters do (using weapons to beat the crap out of things) is cool. Or even can be cool, no matter how good they are at it.

If that's the case, I'm not sure there's any fix for it. One of my longest running 1e/2e characters was a straight human fighter and I had blast. Never felt "deprotagonized" or whatever.

Also, I'm a bit skeptical about the "casters dominated in all editions not just 3.5" claim. Maybe at high levels if by high you mean 20+, but who played at those levels back in the day?

Over on rpg.net, I saw someone claim that in 1e wizards completely dominated the game "from 5th level on". One 3rd level spell per day lets you dominate the game? Color me puzzled.

The only version that wizards dominated was 3x and that happened maybe at level 9 or above. Most games I know usually stopped at level 7-8 so it was never an actual issue anyway.

Benoist · June 18, 2012, 12:08:44 PM

Quote from: FrankTrollman;549634The idea that the old editions were anything other than caster-centric at the high levels is nostalgia talking. Try naming two high powered original campaigns fighter characters other than Robilar. Now try naming four high powered original campaigns magic user characters other than Mordenkainen. The fact that the latter is much easier than the former shows how skewed the playing field was at the high end better than any mathhammer demonstration.

That's a disingenuous argument. The names of mages in the Greyhawk campaign are known because of the spells named after them in AD&D. Most people don't actually know much about the original Lake Geneva campaign at all, or just enough to confirm their bias the way you are right now. Those that do know the campaign will be able to name fighters such as Yrag, Erac's Cousin and the like.

Sacrosanct · June 18, 2012, 12:15:35 PM

Quote from: FrankTrollman;549634It's an 80 foot long flying lizard with scales as thick as your arm that is incinerating whole city blocks on strafing runs from the clouds. There is no front line, and it does not matter how good a Fighting Man supposedly is at holding it. It is flying around at more than 45 miles an hour and never gets closer than 70 feet to the ground. However deadly and sticky the fighter's sword reach is make absolutely no difference because the high level battlefield is simply too epic for a stalwart swordsman to even register on peoples' give-a-fuck meter.

Clearly you have never seen Reign of Fire

In all seriousness though, in my AD&D campaign with my fighter Merdock (the highest level character I've ever had at level 14, but I'll get to that in a moment), he took out a dragon with a ballista. Since you know, fighters are skilled with all weapons, and not just swords.

QuoteThe idea that the old editions were anything other than caster-centric at the high levels is nostalgia talking.
-Frank

95% of actual game play in AD&D was not at levels higher than 9 or so. It always bugs me when people trot out the argument that something that hardly ever happens breaks the whole game. It's almost like people are just looking at the rulebook for endgame rules without ever having actually played the game in practical application.

Black Vulmea · June 18, 2012, 12:18:40 PM

Quote from: FrankTrollman;549507It's an 80 foot long flying lizard with scales as thick as your arm that is incinerating whole city blocks on strafing runs from the clouds. There is no front line, and it does not matter how good a Fighting Man supposedly is at holding it. It is flying around at more than 45 miles an hour and never gets closer than 70 feet to the ground. However deadly and sticky the fighter's sword reach is make absolutely no difference because the high level battlefield is simply too epic for a stalwart swordsman to even register on peoples' give-a-fuck meter.

What version of D&D has 80-foot long red dragons?

1e D. conflagratio horriblis is 48 feet long and its breath weapon incinerates about thirty yards, not '"whole city blocks," at a maximum range of less than a football field, putting it well in range of a bow, crossbow, or even a sling. It's capable of using that breath weapon a grand total of three times a day.

That said, only an idiot fights a flying dragon. That may mean fighting it in its lair, or luring it to the ground, frex, placing a treasure or sacrificial virgin the dragon wants inside twisting caverns. Then the "stalwart swordsman" will trip the dragon's "give-a-fuck meter" like he's a Bally bandit.

The idea that one must take the fight to the dragon in the air is shit-for-brains tactics.

Exploderwizard · June 18, 2012, 12:19:42 PM

Quote from: Dimitrios;549641The more I read these "pity the poor fighter" threads, the more I'm starting to think that a lot of folks just plain don't think that fighters doing the stuff that fighters do (using weapons to beat the crap out of things) is cool. Or even can be cool, no matter how good they are at it.

If that's the case, I'm not sure there's any fix for it. One of my longest running 1e/2e characters was a straight human fighter and I had blast. Never felt "deprotagonized" or whatever.

Also, I'm a bit skeptical about the "casters dominated in all editions not just 3.5" claim. Maybe at high levels if by high you mean 20+, but who played at those levels back in the day?

Over on rpg.net, I saw someone claim that in 1e wizards completely dominated the game "from 5th level on". One 3rd level spell per day lets you dominate the game? Color me puzzled.

Same here. Wizard domination at median levels (5-9th) is combination of 3X isms: piss poor spell disruption, cheap/plentiful wands & scrolls, and whiny bitch magic user players who, despite these advantages, kept prematurely ejaculating their magic at every encounter then demanded a rest.

Part of the blame also must rest on the rest of the game design which moved away from sandbox exploration and towards "challenge" hurdles that PCs were subjected to.

Benoist · June 18, 2012, 12:23:07 PM

Quote from: Black Vulmea;549658The idea that one must take the fight to the dragon in the air is shit-for-brains tactics.

I no rite?

Sacrosanct · June 18, 2012, 12:23:27 PM

Quote from: Black Vulmea;549658That said, only an idiot fights a flying dragon. .

Or the DM decides to attack the keep with a dragon while your PCs are enjoying a 1cp ale

Exploderwizard · June 18, 2012, 12:30:47 PM

Quote from: Sacrosanct;549661Or the DM decides to attack the keep with a dragon while your PCs are enjoying a 1cp ale

Heh. If my character is drinking that cheap shit then I'm certainly 1st level and will be looking for cover, not a fight.

Black Vulmea · June 18, 2012, 12:32:02 PM

Quote from: Melan;549526I was horribly deprotagonised in today's D&D 3.0 game. My 1st level Ranger, Brunatz the Forester (a cross between Rumcajs and Hagrid) rushed an evil 3rd level priestess (more correctly, he had a jump spell cast on him, wo it was more vaulting than rushing). The priestess used her death touch ability, rolled 11 Hp, and Brunatz, who only had 10 left after the party priestess accidentally shot him in the back with an arrow in the previous combat, immediately dropped dead, another victim of priestess supremacy. Then the rest of the party clobbered the priestess in what was probably the least lucky combat ever - I have never seen that many natural 1s in one stretch. The party Fighter broke his ancestral sword (some ancestry!), the twin sun elf girls and the halfling Thief snapped their bowstrings, and basically hit each other more than their target.

Anyway, I rolled up a 1st level Fighter to avenge Brunatz. He is a disciple of Kelemvor and he is a grim motherfucker out to kick ass.

Clearly your dungeon master is a complete dick who is trying to destroy the hobby.

LordVreeg · June 18, 2012, 12:36:22 PM

Quote from: Opaopajr;549624Don't forget that a fighter by higher levels also has Henchmen, who themselves have large groups of Hirelings (soldiers) at their command. That and they have familiarity with all weapons -- including Ballista -- and general knowledge on siege tactics (both offense, defense, and since flying is a rather familiar trope in fantasy, likely aerial tactics as well). Sure a dragon is a horrible opponent, but even a wizard knows that they are safer behind a fort of lots of fighting men willing and trained to shoot dangerous pointy things at high velocity, repeatedly, at it.

Further, the example also assumes a wizard has prepped his/her death dealing spells when some dragon comes in to attack. Well, if a wizard is prepped to the gills with enemy-appropriate death, why wouldn't a fighter likewise be? Further, just as a wizard would prep scrolls in cases of surprise attacks, likewise a fighter would prep defenses and armories similarly. The challenge is to avoid Arena Fighting thinking. This isn't Street Fighter II, this is war D&D style; there's a lot of room for out-of-the-box thinking.

This was the response I did not have time to give yesterday.

If your game is scaled so dragons are going to be combatants, the ability for the fighter to raise troops, use alternate (disatance) weapons, and have countermeasures.

Black Vulmea · June 18, 2012, 12:37:26 PM

Quote from: Benoist;549660I no rite?

:confused:

Quote from: Sacrosanct;549661Or the DM decides to attack the keep with a dragon while your PCs are enjoying a 1cp ale

So you let the dragon go after the treasure room in the dungeon and kick its ass.

Then go back and order the good stuff to celebrate your victory.

Quote from: Exploderwizard;549659Same here. Wizard domination at median levels (5-9th) is combination of 3X isms: piss poor spell disruption, cheap/plentiful wands & scrolls . . .

I think the item creation rules were the first thing I nerfed when I ran 3e.

Black Vulmea · June 18, 2012, 12:40:21 PM

Quote from: LordVreeg;549666If your game is scaled so dragons are going to be combatants, the ability for the fighter to raise troops, use alternate (disatance) weapons, and have countermeasures.

Yeah, the whole 'raise troops' thing goes to pot when the dragon flies overhead and all the 0-levels flee in panic.

There's a reason heroes, not armies, fight dragons.

Benoist · June 18, 2012, 12:46:20 PM

Quote from: Black Vulmea;549667:confused:

I mean "yes", the idea that a fighter ought to fight a dragon in the air, that there's no game outside of the capacities given to the fighter by the rules or no actual planning and tactics that the fighter could use to level the playground (by setting up a trap, using an army to take the dragon down on favorable terrain, searching for the beast's lair instead of going after it in the fields, etc) is dumb as shit. And further, the idea that this sort of dumb thinking ought to be cattered to by the game's design itself is mind-boggling to me.

jeff37923 · June 18, 2012, 12:46:58 PM

Just to put my 2 cents in here.

This is a common mistake that I have seen in every fantasy RPG. A wizard's spells are not tactics. A fighter's attacks, feats, and powers are not tactics. Tactics are what the PC's do with their particular special class abilities in situations, in concert with each other in the group.

This goes back to my OP where I suggested that D&D was team play.

EDIT: Personally, I do not reward bad tactics in my games.

The fighter with Fly cast on him makes me smile. In that case, I can easily see the dragon feeling playful and flying just out of reach of the fighter until the spell wears off and then following that fighter down while they plummet to Earth, taunting them all the way down.

Imp · June 18, 2012, 12:49:08 PM

The couple times I've been party to killing dragons in the open it's been the fighters focusing on it with longbows and trying to spread out so the dragon can't kill them all with one breath (don't think I've ever done this with a red, tho). Armies don't work, they run when they see it or definitely after it breathes the first time (if you can get them to come at all) and ballistas only work if you manage to bait the dragon into its line of fire, and if you can do that, you can do a whole lot of other things too.