Quote from: Narf the Mouse;493543I have no idea what you mean. I've never even heard of "fictitious values" on the Hero Games forum.

What I mean is that a value is calculated "just because" the effect or power "needs" to be expressed in terms of the point-based power-building system--and then, because the cost ends up being out of line, it gets changed arbitrarily.

Daniel's example illustrates the concept:

QuoteThe endgame of that philosophy was the supplement Mystic Masters, where rather than simply admit that the recommended way of creating an Astral Projection spell didn't work for the genre and make up a new one, the author proceeded to stat up a 300+ Active Point, 75 Real Point monster power out of the "approved" Powers and Advantages - and then recommend that the GM just give the power to every PC for free, since in a mystic comic book everyone has Astral Projection.

Quote from: Elliot Wilen;493545What I mean is that a value is calculated "just because" the effect or power "needs" to be expressed in terms of the point-based power-building system--and then, because the cost ends up being out of line, it gets changed arbitrarily.

Daniel's example illustrates the concept:

*Shrug* Well, that's not 6th Edition design philosophy. The philosophy in the books and on the forums is "how simply can you express this?" Special Effect counts for a lot, too.

At it's simplest in Hero System, as the other poster pretty much stated, a flashlight is "You have a flashlight." The key thing is, will it make things easier if I know how X works in game mechanics terms, where X is, say, a Phaser or a Fireball?

For a Phaser, not really. They stun; they kill; they disintegrate; they heat. They're stopped only by acts of Plot.

For a Fireball? Sure. Blast 5d6, Area of Effect (Explosion, 10 m Radius, +1/4) (31 Active Points); OAF (Expendable; a bit of sulfer, -1 1/4), Gestures (Both Hands -1/2), Incantations (-1/4), 10 Real Points

I now have game stats for a Fireball. Took me about thirty seconds. A game mechanics question comes up, I can answer it from that and maybe a quick rulebook lookup, same as anything in any RPG that isn't Risus.

Edit: Well, and a quick Google check of what sorts of geology sulfer is found in.

Quote from: Elliot Wilen;493539I think Daniel's overall point is something I've felt (even though admittedly I haven't studied Hero too closely): the need to come up with a points value for any given power or effect not only creates unnecessary speed bumps on the way to creativity, but also leads to fictitious values that have to be handwaved instead of actually being charged against your account.

(I seem to recall something similar in GURPS where they sort of caved on Disadvantages and just recommended giving everyone more points as an option.)

On the other hand, Hero definitely does have some interesting ways to structure magic by putting in requirements on how spells are built--as shown in Nystul & Allston's Spell Book for Fantasy Hero. Somewhat of a specific example can be seen in the sorcery rules for The Valdorian Age. So I'm not sure about the magic criticism.

I'm probably getting in too deep, I really don't know the system very well.

At least you admit that.  And that, in 5th Edition in particular, the company (namely Steve) acknowledges a need to tweak Rules As Written to get the effect you want.  Daniel's argument seems to be based on either not reading the rules as well as Narf has, or disregarding Narf's points to stick to his own opinion.

JG

I read some of your reviews on Hero stuff over at Rpg.net last night James. I found them very informative. You should post reviews over here.

I'm not an expert on Hero System. I ran it with 3e back in the day (when it was Champions) and played with 5e (the big black book. I think some nerds proved somewhere it wouldn't actually stop bullets. That said, you won't feel a punch in the chest either, but you'll look like a tit with a book strapped to your chest, so your choice.)

That said, from my own perspective, Champions had a nice feel to it and for our group it compared favourably to Villains and Vigilantes, but character creation was a grind for both, involving a calculator or at least loads of paper to write notes and costs down before you made it to the character sheet. Then there was a list of stats and figured characteristics as long as your arm and more abbreviations than you knew what to do with. For a gaming group who just wanted to play a superhero game back then we only had one answer - play Marvel Superheroes instead.

For sure, Champions allowed you to tweak and inker to your hearts content, but all those 1/4 and half costs and looking on a chart to see how many points you had to spend and repeating that for each power/skill/whatever made Champions less accessible to my group. As GM I found myself spending more time trying to explain stuff and waiting for the book to come back so that I could explain it to another player that we barely had time to play.

Marvel Superheroes, DC Heroes, Golden Heroes all came in reasonably thin pamphlet style books and all did a good job (in their own way) of letting you play and run superhero games. DC heroes was point buy, but nowhere near as head scratchingly involved as Champions.

These days Icons, Bash, and the '800lb gorilla of supers' Mutants and Masterminds offer more choice to the Supers player, and that's not to mention the various smaller games (Supers, Truth and Justice, Godlike etc).

There's so much choice out there that it would be a hard sell to get players into Hero because it's not easy to get into. Even now, I feel I would have to re-read the book and then it would take me ages to make a character. I have the 4e Big Blue Book in front of me and its great value for money in terms of quality and page count but I can't imagine running it. Every successive edition became less approachable, to my mind (3e was 140 or so pages I think, 4e was 210+ pages and included the Sourcebook and Campaign book, 5e was about an inch and a half thick if I recall, so page count=lots. Just checked. 592.)

That said, it's not alone. I own every edition of Mutants and Masterminds and I can't, no matter how I try, love the damn thing. Character creation for me takes forever with that game. I'd rather play a faster, easier game.

That's Hero Systems biggest problem for me. The alternatives are easier to play, more widely known and cheaper to buy. It's a shame. I'd like to learn to play the game inside out and love it, but the books are too big and life's too short.

I wish Hero Games well though - it's a sad day when an old gaming name/system teeters on the brink or vanishes

Two points. The people testing 5th Edition's bullet-stopping power found it could stop some small-caliber bullets. Second (and actually important ), there's the Hero Designer character creation software for 5th and 6th Edition Hero system. Although it doesn't handle everything well, it is almost literally point-and-click in simplicity.

The Character Creator is also NOT free, a point against it, IMHO.
(because, quite simply, it makes CharGen possible for someone like me...)

The existence and efficacy of Hero Designer is arguably a point against Hero System if most newbies and even veterans find they NEED the damn thing to make characters easily.  

JG

Quote from: Elliot Wilen;493539I think Daniel's overall point is something I've felt (even though admittedly I haven't studied Hero too closely): the need to come up with a points value for any given power or effect not only creates unnecessary speed bumps on the way to creativity, but also leads to fictitious values that have to be handwaved instead of actually being charged against your account.

I've never liked any of the point buy Supers RPGs for pretty much this same sort of reason - modeling versatile powers is something point buy does horribly.

Really basic powers like super armor or energy blasts always seem to end up costing way less than trying to model less powerful but more versatile things like grappling hooks or built-in radio communications.

Quote from: jgants;493831I've never liked any of the point buy Supers RPGs for pretty much this same sort of reason - modeling versatile powers is something point buy does horribly.

Really basic powers like super armor or energy blasts always seem to end up costing way less than trying to model less powerful but more versatile things like grappling hooks or built-in radio communications.

Grapping hooks = Swinging. Any other use of them = Power skill roll.
Handheld radio = Radio Perception/Transmission, Obvious Accessible Focus (OAF; -1); 5 Real Points. A built-in radio would probably have Physical Manifestation for 8 Real Points. For reference, a "Standard Super" has 400 points.

Yeah, I did forget to mention that Hero Designer is paid for on a two-year support contract basis. It costs $25, or less than two pizzas.

@James Gillen: If the Hero System did not have a Hero Designer, would you then complain of the lack? Your argument seems to have a logic loop.

Quote from: Narf the Mouse;493859Yeah, I did forget to mention that Hero Designer is paid for on a two-year support contract basis. It costs $25, or less than two pizzas.

@James Gillen: If the Hero System did not have a Hero Designer, would you then complain of the lack? Your argument seems to have a logic loop.

It's a complaint I've heard people make.  I personally use it so I can look over what players have submitted and then use the Print function to make a full character sheet that I can easily update and keep on a file.

I've also noticed, however, that in the days before HD I and other Hero grognards used to be able to make characters on paper, and I still do when I'm not at home.  It's just easier to use a program.  This gets at one of the general complaints here: People no longer have as much time to invest in games and go over all the details, which is why "simple" games are more popular.

JG

For what it's worth, I think that for most folks CG software is just like any other supplement. You only buy it if you dig the game.

Beyond that, things fell apart for my last group when we attempted combat, not during character generation.

Quote from: Aos;493894For what it's worth, I think that for most folks CG software is just like any other supplement. You only buy it if you dig the game.

Beyond that, things fell apart for my last group when we attempted combat, not during character generation.

Specifically why?

jg

Quote from: James Gillen;493930Specifically why?

jg

RE: Combat, I can't give specifics because it was about 10 years ago; however, I do know we just got bogged down in all the numbers and figuring out how the powers worked. IIRC some of the secondary characteristics threw us as well.  We never made it through the first encounter. I know it's a shit answer but it was along time ago.

The Multiple Attack rule resolves all the Spider-Man combat examples I listed, but as a followup to Aos' experience I'll point out that the rules for them are six pages long.