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From the Hero website:

"Hero Games has been around for 30 years with ups and downs. The economy's been pretty rough lately, as has the gaming market. With declining sales and fewer releases, Hero has reached the point where it's no longer possible to maintain a full time staff of three, so it's scaling back.

Darren and Steve will be departing December 2nd, with our thanks for a decade of hard work that gave us 108 books, and best wishes for their future endeavors, which may include producing new books under a Hero System license. We'll keep you posted on that.

Jason will remain to continue shipping books and handling day-to-day matters. Existing books will continue to be available for purchase, and the company will continue in business, just a bit more slowly. The online store remains open. Steve will continue to answer rules questions on the Hero boards as "the guy who wrote the rulebook."

We're looking into doing a Kickstarter to print Book of the Empress, since it's complete and ready to go.

For the near future Hero would appreciate your kind thoughts and your patience. Transition periods of this sort take time, and Jason has a lot of work cut out for him, so the support of our fans is much appreciated."

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While I'm not a huge fan of the latest edition, it's sad to see yet another rpg company damn-near folding. It looks like the plan for now is to keep books in print. I hope they will at least keep Steve and Darren working as freelancers. If not, I would think any number of gaming companies would want to hire them. I hope everything works out.

Quote from: danbuter;492389While I'm not a huge fan of the latest edition, it's sad to see yet another rpg company damn-near folding.

My impression of Hero Games is that it's been basically a vanity imprint since Steve Long took over the rights.  It's basically been reprinting to serve an ever-dwindling hardcore fan base.  Kind of like Traveller, but without the IP that could be ported to other, more marketable systems.

Quote from: danbuter;492389While I'm not a huge fan of the latest edition, it's sad to see yet another rpg company damn-near folding.

I've toyed with Hero (original Fantasy Hero, actually) but never played, and I probably never will. Yet I respect the game, and I know that system aside, there have been some good supplements. Maybe this thread would be a good place to mention them?

Personally, I enjoyed the Valdorian Age supplement--it has some good S&S setting materials that could probably be adapted to other systems, and the sorcery/summoning rules are thought-provoking (though perhaps not entirely unfamiliar to players of Elric/Stormbringer or Sorcerer).

The only Hero/Champions book I have is "Villainy Amok" which is a great example of what game supplements should be like as it's just packed with ideas and plot seeds (the other example supplement for a game I don't play is Star Wars D20 "Galactic Campaign" book).

And I've just playing in a Icons campaign based in the Champions universe (the GM played a lot of Champions online). We've been promised that, among other things we will play out the "Foxbat for President" story line.

Quote from: daniel_ream;492394My impression of Hero Games is that it's been basically a vanity imprint since Steve Long took over the rights.  It's basically been reprinting to serve an ever-dwindling hardcore fan base.  Kind of like Traveller, but without the IP that could be ported to other, more marketable systems.

This is basically true. But it's nonetheless sad to see the final swan-song of what was once one of the powerhouses of the RPG industry.

Quote from: Justin Alexander;492443This is basically true. But it's nonetheless sad to see the final swan-song of what was once one of the powerhouses of the RPG industry.

Yeah, it's a punch in the gut, and I was kinda alienated by HERO 6.  If this is Steve's vanity project and Steve's out, that ain't good.

JG

And three people wasn't many in the first place... Really, that's not even SME scale, it's a micro-entrepreneurship.

Quote from: daniel_ream;492394My impression of Hero Games is that it's been basically a vanity imprint since Steve Long took over the rights.  It's basically been reprinting to serve an ever-dwindling hardcore fan base.  Kind of like Traveller, but without the IP that could be ported to other, more marketable systems.

At this point, I am increasingly doubtful RPG IP other than a few D&D settings is worth more than "jack shit". Ideas are dime a dozen, too few people play P&P games for it to matter, and computer gaming has its own IP mills. It is no longer the 90s when the Realms and Dragonlance could be leveraged into novels and computer games and game publishers would shell out big bucks for the rights to use them. Dragon Age has its own mythology, Deus Ex: Human Revolution has its own mythology, and the Elder Scrolls series has its own mythology. The kind of people who used to write RPG splat are writing setting bibles for computer game publishers. Which are real companies that pay real salaries.

Traveller, who remembers Traveller? People over 40-50.

Quote from: James Gillen;492445Yeah, it's a punch in the gut, and I was kinda alienated by HERO 6.  If this is Steve's vanity project and Steve's out, that ain't good.

I got the impression there are two Steves--no?

Breaks my heart, but whaddyagonnado?  Melan's post pretty much nails it from the 3-point line.  

The days have gone down in the West, passing over the mountains in to shadow.

Quote from: thedungeondelver;492463The days have gone down in the West, passing over the mountains in to shadow.

Somewhat overdramatic, but yeah. The hobby lives on and thank god for pdf and POD technology. In 50 years the curious will still be able to get this stuff for cheap.

How many people are there in companies like Steve Jackson Games (disregarding Munchkin, etc.) and Chaosium, say?

I don't know nothin' about this stuff, but have heard of the HERO RPG. Pretty sad news for fans, then. :(

Quote from: brunz;492494How many people are there in companies like Steve Jackson Games (disregarding Munchkin, etc.) and Chaosium, say?

That's a hard question to answer, but for SJGames, technically: two.  Steve and an accountant.  They outsource everything to freelancers.

I'm a recovering Hero player (twenty years clean!) and when Steve Long took over the license, I remember thinking "Hero as a property will last exactly as long as Steve feels like continuing to pour money down this hole".  I'm honestly surprised it lasted this long; I'm flabbergasted that Cryptic went after the "IP" (what IP?).  I can only assume there was a hardcore Champions grognard on the dev team.

As for good Hero stuff, anything by Aaron Allston on specific genre tropes is gold.  Pretty much everything else is forgettable and dated.

Having had a beer or two with Darren, I'm sad, but not unexpectedly so, to see him and Steve walk away from HERO.

Quote from: daniel_ream;492506I'm flabbergasted that Cryptic went after the "IP" (what IP?).

I'm not really letting any cats out of the bag to answer this one: Cryptic was originally working on Marvel Universe Online, and had a lot of code done and whatnot, when Marvel bailed. Cryptic shopped around for an IP they could still use after investing so much into the MMO, and ended with Champions.

C'mon...no one thought it was odd they had a "line-swinging" travel power? :p

So was Steve Long actually spending his own money keeping Hero going as a loss-making enterprise? That's what a couple of you seem to imply. Sounds a bit like the owner of ICE since 2000 who seems to be someone who doesn't mind leaking a bit of money to see his favorite game stay in print.

Quote from: daniel_ream;492506That's a hard question to answer, but for SJGames, technically: two.  Steve and an accountant.  They outsource everything to freelancers.

Unless SJG recently laid off a half dozen or more people that I'm unaware of, that's not true.

(Their line editors may be freelance now. But last time I checked, their COO, managing editors, fulfillment crew, marketing department, and at least a chunk of their IT department were all full time employees.)

But, yes, outside of WotC there are probably no more than a dozen full-time positions for creative personnel in this industry.

Quote from: The_Shadow;492467Somewhat overdramatic, but yeah. The hobby lives on and thank god for pdf and POD technology. In 50 years the curious will still be able to get this stuff for cheap.

You kids and your "I Pod" technology.  I still have vinyl records and I like them.

JG

Quote from: Elliot Wilen;492460I got the impression there are two Steves--no?

I guess not.

Quote from: The_Shadow;492467The hobby lives on and thank god for pdf and POD technology.

I think PDFs and POD were the best thing that happened to the RPG industry in the last times. Without them, the industry would be in a far worse place.

I think the industry would do pretty well as a true cottage industry.

Or for that matter, no industry at all. Nobody has to make money on it for it to be a viable hobby. Lots of people put out interesting and useful material for free - because they see it as part of the hobby to share their rules, settings, etc.

Quote from: Kaldric;492807I think the industry would do pretty well as a true cottage industry.

Or for that matter, no industry at all. Nobody has to make money on it for it to be a viable hobby. Lots of people put out interesting and useful material for free - because they see it as part of the hobby to share their rules, settings, etc.

If the industry disappeared, the hobby would shrink like a lot. We are so used to the internet that we forget that to a lot of people, if you can't find a game in a store, it doesn't exist.

I'm not sure what the point of the hobby being big actually is. If I don't have enough players for my game (which has been out of print for 20 years now), I go convince newbies to try it (which is actually easier than trying to convince a gamer who's been brought in to the hobby by marketing - they tend to be brand/system loyal) - so it's not a matter of not having people to play with.

Quote from: Kaldric;492818I'm not sure what the point of the hobby being big actually is. If I don't have enough players for my game (which has been out of print for 20 years now), I go convince newbies to try it (which is actually easier than trying to convince a gamer who's been brought in to the hobby by marketing - they tend to be brand/system loyal) - so it's not a matter of not having people to play with.

I think the benefit of the hobby being big is more people to play with and more high quality products on the market. I guess the downside is it could push the hobby in directions current gamers might not like (I could see them making the rules more friendly to a general audience in a way that has less appeal to hardcore rpg players).

Quote from: Kaldric;492818I'm not sure what the point of the hobby being big actually is. If I don't have enough players for my game (which has been out of print for 20 years now), I go convince newbies to try it (which is actually easier than trying to convince a gamer who's been brought in to the hobby by marketing - they tend to be brand/system loyal) - so it's not a matter of not having people to play with.

My experience mirrors yours.

At the table the RPGs has always depended on quality referees.  If the industry can get gamers excited about refereeing RPGs along with an effective way to teach these gamers to be good referee things would be a lot better. Probably not a boom but neither would it be have the aura of decline.

Quote from: BedrockBrendan;492824I guess the downside is it could push the hobby in directions current gamers might not like.

Any direction is this direction.

Quote from: Elliot Wilen;492781I guess not.

You may be referring to Steve Peterson (one of the creators of Champions with George MacDonald); Peterson hasn't had anything to do with Hero Games for years.

Lord Hobie

No, I was just misled by the fact that "Steve" was leaving but "Steve" would keep answering questions. Also by my assumption that Steve Long was the writer of the notice.

I'm sure there are people who know the details better than I do but my guess is that Steve Long bought Hero, then Cryptic bought it and kept him as an employee, then they laid him off. But he's apparently going to continue handling Q&A for free.

Quote from: Elliot Wilen;492887I'm sure there are people who know the details better than I do but my guess is that Steve Long bought Hero, then Cryptic bought it and kept him as an employee, then they laid him off. But he's apparently going to continue handling Q&A for free.

IIRC, Cryptic bought the IP, then leased it back to HERO games for $1.

Quote from: wikipediaOn February 28, 2008, Cryptic announced they had purchased the entire Champions intellectual property, licensing the rights to publish the 6th edition back to former owner Hero Games.

Thanks. What I still don't quite get: I thought Steve Long was part-owner of Hero Games.

Maybe that changed. It's not like they're going to tell us the details of the money.

Quote from: Elliot Wilen;492926Thanks. What I still don't quite get: I thought Steve Long was part-owner of Hero Games.

Owning the company doesn't mean you own the IP though.  The IP is a product you can sell or lease.

Novastar, I know about the IP deal, it's just that I don't think that the Champions Universe has ever really had much value as IP.  The characters in it aren't very original and there's no great plotlines to mine.  It's just a bunch of background snippets scattered through sourcebooks and kept deliberately vague so GMs can insert their own ideas.  I can't see any reason Cryptic would go after it - rather than developing it in house or hiring some actual comics writers - unless there was a fan on staff.

Quote from: daniel_ream;492930Owning the company doesn't mean you own the IP though.  The IP is a product you can sell or lease.

Sure. What I mean is: he's the owner, but he's "leaving" the company. Seems a little weird, but maybe there's a tax reason for it.

Heck, you need more than one person just to carry around the rule books.

Quote from: Elliot Wilen;492926Thanks. What I still don't quite get: I thought Steve Long was part-owner of Hero Games.

He was, along with Darren Watts, as DOJ Inc.
I imagine Jason bought in, and now has bought them out.

Quote from: daniel_ream;492930Novastar, I know about the IP deal, it's just that I don't think that the Champions Universe has ever really had much value as IP.  The characters in it aren't very original and there's no great plotlines to mine.  It's just a bunch of background snippets scattered through sourcebooks and kept deliberately vague so GMs can insert their own ideas.  I can't see any reason Cryptic would go after it - rather than developing it in house or hiring some actual comics writers - unless there was a fan on staff.

It may have very well been that, or a "ah crap, we need a 13th hour Hail Mary. Who's willing to sell a Superhero IP on the cheap, and not want overriding content control?"

I'm not as plugged into comics as I once was, I'll admit. Beyond Marvel & DC (maybe Dark Horse), I'm not sure who'd you go to, to mine for a Superhero IP with Brand Recognition anymore.

I'd note that Champions on-line went F2P a heck of a lot quicker, than Star Trek on-line has (slated for January, IIRC).

Quote from: Tetsubo;492938Heck, you need more than one person just to carry around the rule books.

For HERO?

Not really. Pretty much all of it's in the big heavy "stops bullets" main book.
If you're playing a certain type of game, it might be nice to bring one or two with you for reference.

Palladium? Now THAT'S a different story... ;)
(and I say that as a Palladium fanboy)

(and it should be noted HERO Games provides pretty much their entire catalogue on PDF, so the tech-minded among us make carrying books A LOT easier.)

I think the main problem with Champions is that people are too stupid to play it. Speaking as someone who has had two campaigns die on the table, i include myself in that statement. Beyond that, if you can't maintain your initial level of enthusiasm for character building, and I could not, it's never going to work for you.
I will say, though, when I held that first edition rule book in my hands back in the 80's I was as excited as I've ever been about an RPG.
I feel a bit of sympathy for those that are attracted to the more complex rule sets, this is not a good time for them.

Quote from: Aos;492942I think the main problem with Champions is that people are too stupid to play it. Speaking as someone who has had two campaigns die on the table, i include myself in that statement. Beyond that, if you can't maintain your initial level of enthusiasm for character building, and I could not, it's never going to work for you.
I will say, though, when I held that first edition rule book in my hands back in the 80's I was as excited as I've ever been about an RPG.
I feel a bit of sympathy for those that are attracted to the more complex rule sets, this is not a good time for them.

There's this crew I know, who play nothing but Champions/Hero. The way they talked about their campaigns made it sound super cool. So, when their GM was down in my neck of the woods, a game was organized. It was the most tedious thing I ever played. I'm a competent player but the whole thing was draggy and made up of moments where the GM had to explain stuff. It was not that he was a bad GM or anything but I reckon' you have to be familiar with the system to make it fly. The problem from my point of view is that even the basic stuff was beyond me and the rest of the players.

The funny thing is I think some of their supplements are great and have been of great use in many of my games. There's stuff in them that's well thought out and very useful to gamers generally. Just not the system, IMO.

On a totally unrelated note, I keep reading this thread as, Hero goes down on one person.

Regards,
David R

Quote from: Aos;492942I think the main problem with Champions is that people are too stupid to play it. Speaking as someone who has had two campaigns die on the table, i include myself in that statement. Beyond that, if you can't maintain your initial level of enthusiasm for character building, and I could not, it's never going to work for you.
I will say, though, when I held that first edition rule book in my hands back in the 80's I was as excited as I've ever been about an RPG.
I feel a bit of sympathy for those that are attracted to the more complex rule sets, this is not a good time for them.

As a huge fan of Champions/Hero System...let me just say you're 100% right.

Well, this whole business just put Hero (which I haven't played since the Big Blue Book) on my radar again and I just ordered the two 6e core books and Fantasy Hero...funny how I usually get into games just as they are disappearing :-)

Quote from: estar;492828My experience mirrors yours.

At the table the RPGs has always depended on quality referees.  If the industry can get gamers excited about refereeing RPGs along with an effective way to teach these gamers to be good referee things would be a lot better. Probably not a boom but neither would it be have the aura of decline.

There's not only the 'aura of decline' but the fact that you can't have veteran gamers with a good library unless they are in an environment where they're attracted to a lot of games and will build up said library.

JG

Quote from: David R;492944On a totally unrelated note, I keep reading this thread as, Hero goes down on one person.

Going down on more than one person is harder than you'd think.


Don't ask how I know this.
I just do.

JG

Quote from: James Gillen;492996Going down on more than one person is harder than you'd think.


Don't ask how I know this.
I just do.

JG

Depends on whether you take it as a skill or a power.

For me HERO 5th Sidekick + cheap supplements filled a niche GURPS left behind for cheap & thorough rules & genre books when it moved to full color expensive hardbacks from 3rd to 4th edition.

Since HERO 6th went to full color expensive hardbacks I've not bothered. I doubt I'm the only one.

Also ICONS is doing just fine for me Supers gaming wise currently.

Quote from: Casey777;493068For me HERO 5th Sidekick + cheap supplements filled a niche GURPS left behind for cheap & thorough rules & genre books when it moved to full color expensive hardbacks from 3rd to 4th edition.

Since HERO 6th went to full color expensive hardbacks I've not bothered. I doubt I'm the only one.

Also ICONS is doing just fine for me Supers gaming wise currently.

Well, they're planning on putting the core books out again, but probably in black&white, so they'll probably be cheaper for you.

As for the complexity of the rules - They've been summarized down to two pages, and people tell me the summary is useful, so...

...If I did that right, the one without a background should be attached to this post.

Quote from: Narf the Mouse;493114Well, they're planning on putting the core books out again, but probably in black&white, so they'll probably be cheaper for you.

As for the complexity of the rules - They've been summarized down to two pages, and people tell me the summary is useful, so...

...If I did that right, the one without a background should be attached to this post.

Your summary looks great, but a huge part of the complexity is hardwired into character generation, which with games like HERO is either something you love or hate.

Quote from: David R;492944The funny thing is I think some of their supplements are great and have been of great use in many of my games. There's stuff in them that's well thought out and very useful to gamers generally. Just not the system, IMO.

I'd tend to agree. I don't know the business but maybe there would be opportunities for Hero Games to reinvent itself as a third party publisher and reskin their classic settings and adventure for some of the more popular system. M&M, ICONS and BASH all seem to get quite a lot of third party support; Vigilance Press seems to be specialised in this market.

What I do know that I've just started playing in an ICONS campaign set in the Champions universe with the GM planning to take us through "Foxbat for President" and "Battlegrounds".

Speaking of which, I managed to get my hands on a copy of Villainy Amok and judging by my so far quick skim, it is indeed awesome. My sense is that it could be revamped for icons in just a few hours.

Quote from: Aos;493117Your summary looks great, but a huge part of the complexity is hardwired into character generation, which with games like HERO is either something you love or hate.

*Shrug* For anyone who's memorized the D&D 3.5 PHB and DMG, Hero System should be easy.

Quote from: Narf the Mouse;493128*Shrug* For anyone who's memorized the D&D 3.5 PHB and DMG, Hero System should be easy.

That's faint praise, at best.

Well, I haven't done that, but even if I'm a dummy who couldn't play D&D 3.5*, I agree with Aos that the problem with games like Hero (and GURPS) is the complexity of character generation. Templates might help somewhat, I know GURPS introduced them, but even then I don't think they'd be so great if customization requires you to recalculate using the standard system.

And if you don't have templates, then there's a lot of work for the GM to develop them beforehand.

This is a shame, because I think the fundamentals of actually playing either game are pretty nifty. (Well, I haven't played Hero, but the way it handles stunning vs. killing damage seems neat.)

Then again, the main draw of both games originally was that "you can do anything".

What I'd like to see (but can't really be bothered to do myself) is a setting book for either game that provides an alternate character creation/experience system--something more like BRP or Talislanta/Omni--but then lets you loose with the combat/skill mechanics of Hero/GURPS.

I am also that dummy.

Quote from: daniel_ream;492930Owning the company doesn't mean you own the IP though.  The IP is a product you can sell or lease.

Novastar, I know about the IP deal, it's just that I don't think that the Champions Universe has ever really had much value as IP.  The characters in it aren't very original and there's no great plotlines to mine.  It's just a bunch of background snippets scattered through sourcebooks and kept deliberately vague so GMs can insert their own ideas.  I can't see any reason Cryptic would go after it - rather than developing it in house or hiring some actual comics writers - unless there was a fan on staff.

Cryptic's CEO, Jack Emmert, is an ex RPG author (http://rpggeek.com/rpgdesigner/4234/jack-emmert). So yeah, fan on staff.

Quote from: Aos;493130That's faint praise, at best.

Not according to the fifty million people on char-op boards! :D

...Ok, yeah, it is. :)

The template/alternate character progression system idea sounds good to me, too. I'm writing up a Fantasy Hero system + setting thing; think I should post that in game dev for reviews?

Quote from: Narf the Mouse;493162Not according to the fifty million people on char-op boards! :D

...Ok, yeah, it is. :)

The template/alternate character progression system idea sounds good to me, too. I'm writing up a Fantasy Hero system + setting thing; think I should post that in game dev for reviews?

Why not? At the very least I'd be interested in seeing the setting.

Quote from: Aos;493170Why not? At the very least I'd be interested in seeing the setting.

http://www.therpgsite.com/showthread.php?p=493175#post493175 - The setting is kindof a mess at the moment, but I've made a thread.

Quote from: Elliot Wilen;493132Then again, the main draw of both games originally was that "you can do anything".

Not to start a flame war, but this has never actually been true.  Champions character creation system has been unable to handle a number of common superhero concepts since its initial release.  The odd thing about this is that the developers and fans seemed to develop a blind spot about this, leading to my Sapir-Whorf theory of RPG character generation.

Quote from: daniel_ream;493240Not to start a flame war, but this has never actually been true.  Champions character creation system has been unable to handle a number of common superhero concepts since its initial release.  The odd thing about this is that the developers and fans seemed to develop a blind spot about this, leading to my Sapir-Whorf theory of RPG character generation.

As I pointed out, the late summer/early autumn game of Sci-Fi horror (Aliens with touches of Lovecraftian horror plus some Event Horizon like stuff thrown in), when I was trying to "build" the ships working backwards from the Aliens Colonial Marines Technical Manual I found out that Champions cannot "do" proper acceleration.  You can kludge it on, but ultimately it's clunky and just doesn't "feel" right in play.

That's not just for spaceships - it's everything from 25 point normals through Death Star sized monstrosities.  You're either moving at up to your maximum ability (you don't have to full move, or move all the inches you can, but there's nothing stopping you from doing it - like proper acceleration rules) or sitting still.

Quote from: thedungeondelver;493245As I pointed out, the late summer/early autumn game of Sci-Fi horror (Aliens with touches of Lovecraftian horror plus some Event Horizon like stuff thrown in), when I was trying to "build" the ships working backwards from the Aliens Colonial Marines Technical Manual I found out that Champions cannot "do" proper acceleration.  You can kludge it on, but ultimately it's clunky and just doesn't "feel" right in play.

That's not just for spaceships - it's everything from 25 point normals through Death Star sized monstrosities.  You're either moving at up to your maximum ability (you don't have to full move, or move all the inches you can, but there's nothing stopping you from doing it - like proper acceleration rules) or sitting still.

I guess accelerating at five meters per meter isn't proper acceleration. (Seriously)

OTOH, using Flight as acceleration works well enough. Mass can be reperesented with a customer adder and custom multiplier, which results in even bigger ships with higher point totals going slower.

It is awkward, though.

So, on the other poster - What sort of superheroes can Hero not do?

Quote from: stu2000;493054Depends on whether you take it as a skill or a power.

Really, it's more of a Talent.

JG

Quote from: Narf the Mouse;493252So, on the other poster - What sort of superheroes can Hero not do?

Canonical example?  As late as 4th edition, you can't (simply) build Spider-Man.  There's no simple, reasonable cost way to build a grappling hook or sticky line.  But that's just something that requires a lot of system-mongery, not an actual full-stop-no-rules-for-this.  However, the game just has no mechanics at all for dealing with souls, spirits, or magic as something distinct from psionics, so a whole swath of characters from the comics can't be built in any way at all.  Katana, from the Outsiders, for instance.  

The root of the problem is that around Champions III, the system metastasized when the designers decided it was perfect as is and any superpower could be described by these rules.  Nobody was allowed to come up with any new Advantages or Powers.  The endgame of that philosophy was the supplement Mystic Masters, where rather than simply admit that the recommended way of creating an Astral Projection spell didn't work for the genre and make up a new one, the author proceeded to stat up a 300+ Active Point, 75 Real Point monster power out of the "approved" Powers and Advantages - and then recommend that the GM just give the power to every PC for free, since in a mystic comic book everyone has Astral Projection.

Quote from: daniel_ream;493406Canonical example?  As late as 4th edition, you can't (simply) build Spider-Man.  

4th edition? Came out in 1989, I believe. Since then there's been 5th and 6th which have rectified the problem. So what you're saying is kind of like lambasting D&D for having race-as-class.

Quote from: The_Shadow;4934114th edition? Came out in 1989, I believe. Since then there's been 5th and 6th which have rectified the problem. So what you're saying is kind of like lambasting D&D for having race-as-class.

In his defense race-as-class was such a dumb idea it is worthy of being lambasted even at this point. And any supers game that can't emulate Spider-man is equally at fault.

Quote from: Tetsubo;493415In his defense race-as-class was such a dumb idea it is worthy of being lambasted even at this point. And any supers game that can't emulate Spider-man is equally at fault.

Give me scatological invective, that I can take. Give me crudity and ad hominems! At least then I would know I was at the RPGsite. But this?  I think I'll go to some UFO forum where the folks are no doubt a little more logical. Weak sauce, sir, weak sauce.

I'm out.

Just checked and as of 5th ed, you still can't do it.  There's no simple way to have a line connecting you to an Entangled target. (The funniest way of modelling this I've ever seen was a heavily Limited Telekinesis Linked to the Entangle, Limited to current STR, only for pulling towards the character, Manifests as a 4 DEF 4 BODY line that can be cut, etc., etc....)

It derives from the fact that Champions at its heart is a tactical superhero wargame that lets you build your own attacks and defenses.  Champions has real problems with superpower concepts that can be described simply but have a lot of potential utility (like a grappling hook), because the system requires you to buy each thing you can do with your superpower as a separate effect, and the list of effects isn't quite large enough to handle superpower concepts that were common and popular even at the time the game debuted.

For many ex-Champions players I know, the Last Straw came when every single character had a Variable Power Pool to handle the clever things people might think of to do with their power.

Quote from: daniel_ream;493470Just checked and as of 5th ed, you still can't do it.  There's no simple way to have a line connecting you to an Entangled target. (The funniest way of modelling this I've ever seen was a heavily Limited Telekinesis Linked to the Entangle, Limited to current STR, only for pulling towards the character, Manifests as a 4 DEF 4 BODY line that can be cut, etc., etc....)

It derives from the fact that Champions at its heart is a tactical superhero wargame that lets you build your own attacks and defenses.  Champions has real problems with superpower concepts that can be described simply but have a lot of potential utility (like a grappling hook), because the system requires you to buy each thing you can do with your superpower as a separate effect, and the list of effects isn't quite large enough to handle superpower concepts that were common and popular even at the time the game debuted.

For many ex-Champions players I know, the Last Straw came when every single character had a Variable Power Pool to handle the clever things people might think of to do with their power.

Swinging is in Hero System.
Entange, Attached To Webline Character Can Pull On (+1/4)
And I have no idea where you got the idea that new powers, advantages and limitations can't be added to Hero System. So far, for Hero System, just about every book has introduced a few minor modifiers and there's been two Advanced Player's Guides that have introduced whole new mechanics.

Quote from: Narf the Mouse;493252I guess accelerating at five meters per meter isn't proper acceleration. (Seriously)

OTOH, using Flight as acceleration works well enough. Mass can be reperesented with a customer adder and custom multiplier, which results in even bigger ships with higher point totals going slower.

It is awkward, though.

Mass isn't the issue; the issue is that if I have 20" of flight, in phase 1, I'm declaring and moving up to 20" (40" noncombat).  Period.  I do not have to accelerate to that speed, I just am moving that fast.  I don't have to spend phase 1 moving from 0" to 5" of flight, then in phase 2 (or whichever phase I go on next) I'm now moving that squared, etc.  I am just moving at whatever speed (be it flight, walking, running, swimming etc.) from a dead standstill.

Note: this is not an enormous problem as my favorite RPG of all time* has far, far worse "problems" :)  so please don't think I'm system-warring here. :)


...

*=AD&D 1e.

Quote from: thedungeondelver;493472Mass isn't the issue; the issue is that if I have 20" of flight, in phase 1, I'm declaring and moving up to 20" (40" noncombat).  Period.  I do not have to accelerate to that speed, I just am moving that fast.  I don't have to spend phase 1 moving from 0" to 5" of flight, then in phase 2 (or whichever phase I go on next) I'm now moving that squared, etc.  I am just moving at whatever speed (be it flight, walking, running, swimming etc.) from a dead standstill.

Note: this is not an enormous problem as my favorite RPG of all time* has far, far worse "problems" :)  so please don't think I'm system-warring here. :)


...

*=AD&D 1e.

As I stated in that post, you do accelerate - At 5 meters per meter. It's not a very sensical acceleration, but you do accelerate/decelerate.

And if it does bother you - "Acceleration is limited to 5m per Phase -1/2".

Quote from: Narf the Mouse;493471Swinging is in Hero System.
Entange, Attached To Webline Character Can Pull On (+1/4)
And I have no idea where you got the idea that new powers, advantages and limitations can't be added to Hero System.

The ability to reach out and bring things to you is explicitly the domain of Stretching (more generally, Telekinesis).  And up until 4th ed, it was Word of God that if there was more than one way to build a specific Power, you were supposed to choose the most expensive one.

I never said they can't be added; I said that the designers got into a mindset that they didn't need to be, because "the system was perfect and complete as it stood".  Even though some editions had guidelines for making up new powers, the writers were clear that You Should Not Do This.  That attitude pervaded the community of writers and designers around the game; I've been told by more than one freelancer that they were explicitly told they could not make up new Powers or Advantages when writing supplements for the game, they had to use the core RAW.  cf. Mystic Masters.

Of course anyone can add new Powers to any RPG, super- or otherwise.  But if the answer to any "how do I build this superpower when there's no rules for it" is always "It Just Works Like This (+1/4)", then why did I need that kevlar vest of a gamebook?

It would be one thing if we were talking about weird corner cases or things that aren't really superhero comic book tropes.  But we're not.  We're talking things that were right there on the newsstand when Champions came out.

OT, I asked this in the Supers thread, but got no reply. Narf (or anyone) stat blocks aside, do you have an opinion on the 5e supps Monster Island and Hidden Lands?

Question #2 is their a conversion guide for Champions--> Marvel FASRIP (I'm actually looking to use ICONS, but it is very similar to FASRIP in that it has 1-10 scale so anything converted over from one system could easily work with the other.  Basically, I just need to understand the relative power level of stuff in Champions, I can fudge the rest. (It's been too long since I played it and I remember nothing).

Quote from: daniel_ream;493481The ability to reach out and bring things to you is explicitly the domain of Stretching (more generally, Telekinesis).  And up until 4th ed, it was Word of God that if there was more than one way to build a specific Power, you were supposed to choose the most expensive one.

I never said they can't be added; I said that the designers got into a mindset that they didn't need to be, because "the system was perfect and complete as it stood".  Even though some editions had guidelines for making up new powers, the writers were clear that You Should Not Do This.  That attitude pervaded the community of writers and designers around the game; I've been told by more than one freelancer that they were explicitly told they could not make up new Powers or Advantages when writing supplements for the game, they had to use the core RAW.  cf. Mystic Masters.

Of course anyone can add new Powers to any RPG, super- or otherwise.  But if the answer to any "how do I build this superpower when there's no rules for it" is always "It Just Works Like This (+1/4)", then why did I need that kevlar vest of a gamebook?

It would be one thing if we were talking about weird corner cases or things that aren't really superhero comic book tropes.  But we're not.  We're talking things that were right there on the newsstand when Champions came out.

Again, 4th Edition was two editions ago.

Again, custom modifiers are part of the base mechanics. And the huge rulebooks are there so that most situations are covered - Perhaps more estensively than they need, but covered nonetheless.

I say "most", but I've yet to see something (where I know what that something is), where I can't emulate it in Hero System without prohibitive trouble.

As to "Spirit" in Hero System, in 6th Edition, that's only tangentally covered in the rulebooks, under "Transform", which details a "Spiritual" version of Transform. This is because the rulebooks, being generic, do not, in general, cover things that should be covered in specific by your setting.

I shall consider your current complaints answered, unless you add something substantial to them.

Quote from: Aos;493484OT, I asked this in the Supers thread, but got no reply. Narf (or anyone) stat blocks aside, do you have an opinion on the 5e supps Monster Island and Hidden Lands?

Question #2 is their a conversion guide for Champions--> Marvel FASRIP (I'm actually looking to use ICONS, but it is very similar to FASRIP in that it has 1-10 scale so anything converted over from one system could easily work with the other.  Basically, I just need to understand the relative power level of stuff in Champions, I can fudge the rest. (It's been too long since I played it and I remember nothing).

Unfortunately for that question, I own neither of those, sorry.

I'm not aware of any. That, of course, doesn't mean there isn't one. Possibly, someone on the Hero Games forums might know; that sounds like a question to ask in General Roleplaying.

I apologize; I get a little short-tempered when it seems like people aren't listening.

QuoteI say "most", but I've yet to see something (where I know what that something is), where I can't emulate it in Hero System without prohibitive trouble.

EDITED TO REMOVE UNNECESSARY SNARK: No need to escalate a non-issue.

If you feel like tackling them, here's some well-known problematic powers:

Soul Jar, or anything that works like it.

Similarly, Katana's katana.

Spider-Man routinely uses both webshooters on two different opponents simultaneously with no loss of effectiveness.

Spider-Man snares two punks on either side of him, then yanks and leaps into the air, causing the two punks to slam into each other as he flips out of the way.

Spider-Man snares a punk and then yanks him into a nearby wall or (better yet) another punk.

Quote from: daniel_ream;493499EDITED TO REMOVE UNNECESSARY SNARK: No need to escalate a non-issue.

If you feel like tackling them, here's some well-known problematic powers:

Soul Jar, or anything that works like it.

Similarly, Katana's katana.

Spider-Man routinely uses both webshooters on two different opponents simultaneously with no loss of effectiveness.

Spider-Man snares two punks on either side of him, then yanks and leaps into the air, causing the two punks to slam into each other as he flips out of the way.

Spider-Man snares a punk and then yanks him into a nearby wall or (better yet) another punk.

Soul Jar: I'm going to assume (since you didn't provide a definition), that you mean something that traps a soul. In that case, Transform (Person with a soul into Person without a soul; break the jar) handles it.

No definition provided for Katana's Katana; I shall Wikipedia. Ok, then, the DC Comics character's sword: Summon Specific Being +1 (Last being killed); Must Kill "Summon" first, One "Summon" At A Time. Hearing voices is handled with, perhaps, a Physical Complication, "Hears Voice Of Sword's Last Trapped Victim". Edit: Complications can be added by items, by giving the item a Side Effect that inflicts that Complication on the wielder/user.

That is exactly the kind of effect a Multiple-Power Attack (for which he would take a small OCV penalty) is for.

Multiple-Power Attack: Stretching + Grab + Grab + Throw. Possibly two throws, but one throw and SFX handles it.

Again, Multiple-Power Attack: Stretching + Grab + Throw.

I think Daniel's overall point is something I've felt (even though admittedly I haven't studied Hero too closely): the need to come up with a points value for any given power or effect not only creates unnecessary speed bumps on the way to creativity, but also leads to fictitious values that have to be handwaved instead of actually being charged against your account.

(I seem to recall something similar in GURPS where they sort of caved on Disadvantages and just recommended giving everyone more points as an option.)

On the other hand, Hero definitely does have some interesting ways to structure magic by putting in requirements on how spells are built--as shown in Nystul & Allston's Spell Book for Fantasy Hero. Somewhat of a specific example can be seen in the sorcery rules for The Valdorian Age. So I'm not sure about the magic criticism.

I'm probably getting in too deep, I really don't know the system very well.

General points here:

1) I've played in lots of very successful HERO games in many genres outside of superheroes: modern-day action, pulp, space opera, hard sci-fi, fantasy, and martial arts.  I don't know about sales figures, but it seems to me that the other genres got plenty of attention and play.  So I think it qualifies as generic.

2) With a huge line of products released over nearly 30 years, the HERO System is probably in the top dozen RPG lines considered over all time - up there with GURPS and Call of Cthulhu.  It may be fading now, but it's had a hugely successful run.  

Quote from: Elliot Wilen;493539I think Daniel's overall point is something I've felt (even though admittedly I haven't studied Hero too closely): the need to come up with a points value for any given power or effect not only creates unnecessary speed bumps on the way to creativity, but also leads to fictitious values that have to be handwaved instead of actually being charged against your account.

While many HERO system fans enjoy playing around with the power system to come up with effects - and perhaps create sped bumps for themselves, there isn't a need to come up with point values any more than in any other RPG.  Certainly in games that I played in, we didn't feel bound by the powers system more than in other RPGs.  

To be fair, there are fanatics for the system.  For example, I ran an original series Star Trek game at a convention once using the HERO system, and one of the players walked out when he heard that I hadn't written up phasers as HERO powers - they were just automatic one-shot, one-kill.  However, the other 7 players were fine with this and we had a lot of fun.  His attitude was something he brought to the game, not inherent in the rules.  

Although I've never had Spiderman per se, I've had no problems with Spiderman-like characters, who would do all sorts of tricks with their powers like what was mentioned.  (I'm not sure what the point is about sticky lines, for example.  4th edition in 1989 introduced "Swinging" as a core power, and before then it was a limited version of Flight, just like running on water and up walls.)

Quote from: Elliot Wilen;493539I think Daniel's overall point is something I've felt (even though admittedly I haven't studied Hero too closely): the need to come up with a points value for any given power or effect not only creates unnecessary speed bumps on the way to creativity, but also leads to fictitious values that have to be handwaved instead of actually being charged against your account.

(I seem to recall something similar in GURPS where they sort of caved on Disadvantages and just recommended giving everyone more points as an option.)

I have no idea what you mean. I've never even heard of "fictitious values" on the Hero Games forum.

Unless you mean Everyman abilities? Those aren't fictitious, though; they're just free, on the principle that charging people for an 8- familiarity with Conversation is just plain silly.

Quote from: Narf the Mouse;493543I have no idea what you mean. I've never even heard of "fictitious values" on the Hero Games forum.

What I mean is that a value is calculated "just because" the effect or power "needs" to be expressed in terms of the point-based power-building system--and then, because the cost ends up being out of line, it gets changed arbitrarily.

Daniel's example illustrates the concept:

QuoteThe endgame of that philosophy was the supplement Mystic Masters, where rather than simply admit that the recommended way of creating an Astral Projection spell didn't work for the genre and make up a new one, the author proceeded to stat up a 300+ Active Point, 75 Real Point monster power out of the "approved" Powers and Advantages - and then recommend that the GM just give the power to every PC for free, since in a mystic comic book everyone has Astral Projection.

Quote from: Elliot Wilen;493545What I mean is that a value is calculated "just because" the effect or power "needs" to be expressed in terms of the point-based power-building system--and then, because the cost ends up being out of line, it gets changed arbitrarily.

Daniel's example illustrates the concept:

*Shrug* Well, that's not 6th Edition design philosophy. The philosophy in the books and on the forums is "how simply can you express this?" Special Effect counts for a lot, too.

At it's simplest in Hero System, as the other poster pretty much stated, a flashlight is "You have a flashlight." The key thing is, will it make things easier if I know how X works in game mechanics terms, where X is, say, a Phaser or a Fireball?

For a Phaser, not really. They stun; they kill; they disintegrate; they heat. They're stopped only by acts of Plot.

For a Fireball? Sure. Blast 5d6, Area of Effect (Explosion, 10 m Radius, +1/4) (31 Active Points); OAF (Expendable; a bit of sulfer, -1 1/4), Gestures (Both Hands -1/2), Incantations (-1/4), 10 Real Points

I now have game stats for a Fireball. Took me about thirty seconds. A game mechanics question comes up, I can answer it from that and maybe a quick rulebook lookup, same as anything in any RPG that isn't Risus.

Edit: Well, and a quick Google check of what sorts of geology sulfer is found in.

Quote from: Elliot Wilen;493539I think Daniel's overall point is something I've felt (even though admittedly I haven't studied Hero too closely): the need to come up with a points value for any given power or effect not only creates unnecessary speed bumps on the way to creativity, but also leads to fictitious values that have to be handwaved instead of actually being charged against your account.

(I seem to recall something similar in GURPS where they sort of caved on Disadvantages and just recommended giving everyone more points as an option.)

On the other hand, Hero definitely does have some interesting ways to structure magic by putting in requirements on how spells are built--as shown in Nystul & Allston's Spell Book for Fantasy Hero. Somewhat of a specific example can be seen in the sorcery rules for The Valdorian Age. So I'm not sure about the magic criticism.

I'm probably getting in too deep, I really don't know the system very well.

At least you admit that.  And that, in 5th Edition in particular, the company (namely Steve) acknowledges a need to tweak Rules As Written to get the effect you want.  Daniel's argument seems to be based on either not reading the rules as well as Narf has, or disregarding Narf's points to stick to his own opinion.

JG

I read some of your reviews on Hero stuff over at Rpg.net last night James. I found them very informative. You should post reviews over here.

I'm not an expert on Hero System. I ran it with 3e back in the day (when it was Champions) and played with 5e (the big black book. I think some nerds proved somewhere it wouldn't actually stop bullets. That said, you won't feel a punch in the chest either, but you'll look like a tit with a book strapped to your chest, so your choice.)

That said, from my own perspective, Champions had a nice feel to it and for our group it compared favourably to Villains and Vigilantes, but character creation was a grind for both, involving a calculator or at least loads of paper to write notes and costs down before you made it to the character sheet. Then there was a list of stats and figured characteristics as long as your arm and more abbreviations than you knew what to do with. For a gaming group who just wanted to play a superhero game back then we only had one answer - play Marvel Superheroes instead.

For sure, Champions allowed you to tweak and inker to your hearts content, but all those 1/4 and half costs and looking on a chart to see how many points you had to spend and repeating that for each power/skill/whatever made Champions less accessible to my group. As GM I found myself spending more time trying to explain stuff and waiting for the book to come back so that I could explain it to another player that we barely had time to play.

Marvel Superheroes, DC Heroes, Golden Heroes all came in reasonably thin pamphlet style books and all did a good job (in their own way) of letting you play and run superhero games. DC heroes was point buy, but nowhere near as head scratchingly involved as Champions.

These days Icons, Bash, and the '800lb gorilla of supers' Mutants and Masterminds offer more choice to the Supers player, and that's not to mention the various smaller games (Supers, Truth and Justice, Godlike etc).

There's so much choice out there that it would be a hard sell to get players into Hero because it's not easy to get into. Even now, I feel I would have to re-read the book and then it would take me ages to make a character. I have the 4e Big Blue Book in front of me and its great value for money in terms of quality and page count but I can't imagine running it. Every successive edition became less approachable, to my mind (3e was 140 or so pages I think, 4e was 210+ pages and included the Sourcebook and Campaign book, 5e was about an inch and a half thick if I recall, so page count=lots. Just checked. 592.)

That said, it's not alone. I own every edition of Mutants and Masterminds and I can't, no matter how I try, love the damn thing. Character creation for me takes forever with that game. I'd rather play a faster, easier game.

That's Hero Systems biggest problem for me. The alternatives are easier to play, more widely known and cheaper to buy. It's a shame. I'd like to learn to play the game inside out and love it, but the books are too big and life's too short.

I wish Hero Games well though - it's a sad day when an old gaming name/system teeters on the brink or vanishes :(

Two points. :) The people testing 5th Edition's bullet-stopping power found it could stop some small-caliber bullets. Second (and actually important :) ), there's the Hero Designer character creation software for 5th and 6th Edition Hero system. Although it doesn't handle everything well, it is almost literally point-and-click in simplicity.

The Character Creator is also NOT free, a point against it, IMHO.
(because, quite simply, it makes CharGen possible for someone like me...)

The existence and efficacy of Hero Designer is arguably a point against Hero System if most newbies and even veterans find they NEED the damn thing to make characters easily.  ;)

JG

Quote from: Elliot Wilen;493539I think Daniel's overall point is something I've felt (even though admittedly I haven't studied Hero too closely): the need to come up with a points value for any given power or effect not only creates unnecessary speed bumps on the way to creativity, but also leads to fictitious values that have to be handwaved instead of actually being charged against your account.

I've never liked any of the point buy Supers RPGs for pretty much this same sort of reason - modeling versatile powers is something point buy does horribly.

Really basic powers like super armor or energy blasts always seem to end up costing way less than trying to model less powerful but more versatile things like grappling hooks or built-in radio communications.

Quote from: jgants;493831I've never liked any of the point buy Supers RPGs for pretty much this same sort of reason - modeling versatile powers is something point buy does horribly.

Really basic powers like super armor or energy blasts always seem to end up costing way less than trying to model less powerful but more versatile things like grappling hooks or built-in radio communications.

Grapping hooks = Swinging. Any other use of them = Power skill roll.
Handheld radio = Radio Perception/Transmission, Obvious Accessible Focus (OAF; -1); 5 Real Points. A built-in radio would probably have Physical Manifestation for 8 Real Points. For reference, a "Standard Super" has 400 points.

Yeah, I did forget to mention that Hero Designer is paid for on a two-year support contract basis. It costs $25, or less than two pizzas.

@James Gillen: If the Hero System did not have a Hero Designer, would you then complain of the lack? Your argument seems to have a logic loop.

Quote from: Narf the Mouse;493859Yeah, I did forget to mention that Hero Designer is paid for on a two-year support contract basis. It costs $25, or less than two pizzas.

@James Gillen: If the Hero System did not have a Hero Designer, would you then complain of the lack? Your argument seems to have a logic loop.

It's a complaint I've heard people make.  I personally use it so I can look over what players have submitted and then use the Print function to make a full character sheet that I can easily update and keep on a file.

I've also noticed, however, that in the days before HD I and other Hero grognards used to be able to make characters on paper, and I still do when I'm not at home.  It's just easier to use a program.  This gets at one of the general complaints here: People no longer have as much time to invest in games and go over all the details, which is why "simple" games are more popular.

JG

For what it's worth, I think that for most folks CG software is just like any other supplement. You only buy it if you dig the game.

Beyond that, things fell apart for my last group when we attempted combat, not during character generation.

Quote from: Aos;493894For what it's worth, I think that for most folks CG software is just like any other supplement. You only buy it if you dig the game.

Beyond that, things fell apart for my last group when we attempted combat, not during character generation.

Specifically why?

jg

Quote from: James Gillen;493930Specifically why?

jg

RE: Combat, I can't give specifics because it was about 10 years ago; however, I do know we just got bogged down in all the numbers and figuring out how the powers worked. IIRC some of the secondary characteristics threw us as well.  We never made it through the first encounter. I know it's a shit answer but it was along time ago.

The Multiple Attack rule resolves all the Spider-Man combat examples I listed, but as a followup to Aos' experience I'll point out that the rules for them are six pages long.

Quote from: daniel_ream;493949The Multiple Attack rule resolves all the Spider-Man combat examples I listed, but as a followup to Aos' experience I'll point out that the rules for them are six pages long.

And yet, it can be simplified down to:

* Pay Endurance for all attacks.
* -2 OCV for every additional attack.
* -2 OCV for mixing HTH and Ranged attacks.
* -2 OCV for mixing Non-Mental and Mental attacks.
* If you hit the same target with an area attack and a non-area attack, you can't switch and target the ground (DCV 3).
* You take the worse of any modifiers to your CV (and to MCV, if you're using mental attacks).
* You're at 1/2 DCV.

None of that sounds like a trial to remember and it's about what I, at least, would rule as a GM.