Quote from: hexgrid;487904I always thought the murder-hobo thing was kind of like this- a sort of joking acknowledgement that D&D "heroes" often aren't really very heroic. Not an attack on D&D or anyone's play style.

Yeah, I take it more or less that way, too.

On the one hand, there is plenty to D&D other than killing and looting.

On the other hand, a rather noticable majority of the game tends to be spent on killing and looting.  That's where the action is.  And let's face it, even when PCs are trying to be good, even lawful good, they still tend to stall out at being rather greedy and power-hungry.  

For example, PCs may negotiate their way out of a fight with orcs, but they aren't establishing full diplomatic relations any time soon.  They certainly aren't starting the Goblin Anti-Defamation League and lobbying the king for equal goblin rights.  They don't have any humanitarian missions to deliver food and medical supplies to the starving Hobgoblin marauders.  Even amongst other humans/demi-humans, the "let's just beat it out of them" tactic tends to be the one of choice when they need information.

And forget about money.  PCs are almost always mercenaries - even the lawful good ones insist on being paid for most things.  They may or may not return recovered stolen treasure.  They may avoid stealing from religious burial sites but that's about it.  And what money they do have pretty much never gets given to the poor, and even the hint the ruler wants to tax them gets scowls.  They aren't afraid to steal thing they "really need" from the local peasants, either.

IME, most PCs go back and forth between the lines of "flawed hero who breaks the rules", "full-fledged anti-hero", and "complete psycho".  Anyone who plays "virtuous hero" always retires the character quickly because it doesn't really work that well.

Quote from: Werekoala;487788I'll only be a murder hobo if I can use a shotgun.

And look like Rutger Hauer.

I have a friend who's an excellent DM, but he prefers the dungeon crawl aspect of the game, which I have accused him of trying to make murder-hobo's out of my characters (I prefer games more like The Three Musketeers; plenty of intrigue and (demi-)human interaction).

Conan was a murder-hobo until he became king.

Most RPGs lend themselves to murder-hoboism and certainly most CRPGs are ubermurder-hoboville with a thin veneer of "story" tossed on top. Kinda like a side salad at an all-meat bbq.
 
I have certainly played & run whole Traveller campaigns where the PCs were "dirty deeds done real expensive" fleeing from planet to planet with bounty hunters after them for their various crimes. Was it fun? Hell yeah!!!

The only way I see D&D not being murder hobo is when the PCs have ties to the NPCs in the world and do more than kill stuff and loot. Wandering tomb robbers in a dungeon sandbox can have deep ties, but that's a choice by the GM and players to make that happen.

Right, I'm all for the spaghetti-western school of RPGing.

The very term "adventurers" isn't all that reputable. If you introduce yourself as an "adventurer" in some times & places, you might be seen as nothing more than a "drifter" putting on airs.

But adventurers don't "murder" unless you either

a) Have the sort of players who look at every NPC as nothing more than a sack of XP and treasure,

OR

b) Buy into the reductionist anti-D&D hack job which glosses all of the following as "murder":

• Fighting in the course of exploring a dungeon. (Do monsters have a common-law right to peaceable enjoyment of the ruins in which they're squatting, extending to attacking passersby?)
• Taking the fight to the enemy. (Attacking the lair of outlaws or raiding orcs, to capture, kill, or drive them off.)
• Getting into fights while engaged in a quest.
• Using deadly force anywhere, any time.

Let's face it, if D&D adventurers are "murder-hobos", then so are Bilbo & Frodo.

Quote from: Elliot Wilen;487928Let's face it, if D&D adventurers are "murder-hobos", then so are Bilbo & Frodo.

Well, they had permanent homes, so they were more like murder-vacationers.

So it's not really "Murder-hobos" but rather "Killer-hobos" or the more delicate "Fighting-hobos".....

Regards,
David R

Quote from: Werekoala;487934Well, they had permanent homes, so they were more like murder-vacationers.

They were murder-hobbits, of course.

I propose the following experiment: run your next D&D campaign following the universe rules of the Hercules: The Legendary Journeys TV show.

A non-exhaustive summary: Hercules & Iolaus never kill a human being or sentient demi-human.  Monsters are fair game.  They don't carry money, instead working for food and shelter as they wander about fake Achaea.  They never accept material reward for anything they do, and any "treasure" found in the course of their adventures is returned to the people of the nearest town.  They always defer to local authority, unless the local kinglet is demonstrably corrupt.  Monsters are to be destroyed; conflicts between warring groups of people are to resolved with diplomacy, although backed with the threat of force where necessary.

Quote from: Pseudoephedrine;487971They were murder-hobbits, of course.

Don't make me come over there....

Quote from: Novastar;487924And look like Rutger Hauer.

I have a friend who's an excellent DM, but he prefers the dungeon crawl aspect of the game, which I have accused him of trying to make murder-hobo's out of my characters (I prefer games more like The Three Musketeers; plenty of intrigue and (demi-)human interaction).

Swear to god, the more I accentuate the social-towing game, they complain they want more dungeon, then I they find adventure, and they tell me, "I thought this was a social- biased game..."

Quote from: jgants;487915Anyone who plays "virtuous hero" always retires the character quickly because it doesn't really work that well.

I get the whole spaghetti-western school of play but most times my PCs (for D&D, at least) are more like the Magnificent Seven or like Indiana Jones - "Fortune and glory, kid. Fortune and glory"

Slight tangent. Are there any rules in D&D for giving XP for "good" deeds regardless of alignment?

Regards,
David R

I'm fine with murder hobo as a character type but dislike murder hobos as a style of play.  Yes, I'm sorry, I think the PCs should have better motives than killing things and taking their stuff.  Actually in most of my games the big rewards are received from patrons for services rendered.  Especially in medieval fantasy games where its much more appropriate than a Kmart style cash economy.

Interestingly, a lot of MMORPGs have shifted design focus from kill monsters/snarf loot  giving the most XP to major quests giving the most XP.  Some, like Guild Wars, actually tell you up front that grinding in the countryside is fairly pointless.

Damnit I may just have to give Guild Wars a try now.

Quote from: daniel_ream;487989Interestingly, a lot of MMORPGs have shifted design focus from kill monsters/snarf loot  giving the most XP to major quests giving the most XP.  Some, like Guild Wars, actually tell you up front that grinding in the countryside is fairly pointless.

Technically World of Warcraft is like that too... the fastest levelling is through quests... but the vast majority of the quests are to go kill someone/something and take stuff from them...
It's thinly disguised grinding... "go kill 40 diseased bears and bring me their livers... so I can study the corruption."
Not to say they haven't improved a lot from the old days... there are some very inventive quests now... but they're still only a drop in the bucket next to the kill/loot ones.
It would be great if XP could be given for the various 'Achievements' they've set up... such as for exploration, reputation, crafting... but that might require there be some other endgame than the synchronized swimming events they call 'Raids'.