Labyrinth Lord (and by extension, Basic D&D) is working well in the bar. If I can teach it to adult drunks who then have fun with the game, then it should be fine for kids.

I'd also like to put the word in for d6 Star Wars, especially the late Star Wars Introductory Adventure Game which worked great for getting new gamers started.

I don't buy the theory that more mechanically demanding games are barriers to new players and 'rules lite' games are more likely to make a positive impression.

For a start, if that were actually true, then stuff like Savage Worlds and Dragon Warriors would be gateway games. They aren't.

The game is irrelevant. What is important is that the group welcoming the new player know their stuff, are enthusiastic, both about the game and the newbie and that the new player is eased in gently.

Quote from: One Horse Town;446368I don't buy the theory that more mechanically demanding games are barriers to new players and 'rules lite' games are more likely to make a positive impression.

I was thinking about that and I wonder if people don't immediately think of simplicity because subconsciously they're thinking about the time it takes with more complex games for character building. They want the new players to sit down at the table and get to it immediately.


Speaking to Call of Cthulhu, I don't like it as a game for new players because it's harder to be successful with.

It seems to me that it's pretty easy to come up with, run, play in, and be successful in a save the princess fantasy type scenario.

Running a horror mystery game where the plots tend to be a bit convoluted, where understanding the process of collecting and aggregating clues into meaningful information may not be something the players are familiar with, where description and roleplaying are good bits of the fun, may not turn out too well for people new to gaming.

And, if I understand it correctly, the scenario presented to us is one where the GM is a noob as well.

Seanchai

Quote from: Seanchai;446370I was thinking about that and I wonder if people don't immediately think of simplicity because subconsciously they're thinking about the time it takes with more complex games for character building. They want the new players to sit down at the table and get to it immediately.

Seanchai

First time i played, i had no idea what was going on. Part of the fun was in finding out!

Quote from: One Horse Town;446368The game is irrelevant. What is important is that the group welcoming the new player know their stuff, are enthusiastic, both about the game and the newbie and that the new player is eased in gently.

I agree. Sharing enthusiasm and having a good time playing the game trumps pretty much all system considerations.

If the GM is experienced, and even better if there are experienced players, I agree, the particular system doesn't matter.

If it's a relatively inexperienced group, I do think that a simpler system is better, such as Labyrinth Lord or a specific instantiation of BRP/Runequest. (I.e. CoC, OpenQuest/RQ, but not Chaosium's gold book since it requires too many decisions about campaign setup. Maybe the gold book plus a setting book, but probably not even then because it requires assimilating a set of general rules and then putting a set of special-case rules into context.)

One concern, though, is conveying a good understanding of the role of the GM. I'm not sure which game really does a good job of this.

Unknown Armies or Call Of Cthulhu.
 
1) To warp minds.
2) To get the noobs properly introduced to the concept that their characters will die most gruesome deaths.

"Mechanics"? Whatever suits me!

(1) Role-playing is the prime distinctive and appealing feature of paper-and-pencil RPGs (as opposed to CRPGs, which are basically defined by attention to statistics). The thrill of adventure comes from (for example) descending into the darkness beyond flickering torchlight, following the 'plop' of dripping water toward the Chamber of the Pool. What is that sound from behind? Just the echo of my own footsteps? No, it is a sort of dragging or slithering, that stops when I stop. Now another is joining it. I look for an alcove into which I can step. There! To the side, and turn, and raise brand and blade to confront...

(2) Manipulating reams of technical jargon is in my experience only exceptionally a major part of the initial appeal, whereas piling it on is frequently a major turnoff. This is of course a bigger consideration with a mixed group than with a bunch who are obviously and unanimously looking forward to spending an hour or so listening to or reading rules and doing accounting procedures before making move one, and having each further move slowed down by explication of unfamiliar technicalities.

(3) The quality of the adventure depends chiefly on the GM, and how well the tools at hand suit the GM's style. Genuine "noobs" don't even know thing one about the differences between Rules Set X and Rules Set Y, and probably don't much care.

(4) If someone's interest is not quickly engaged, that wasted chance may be the last. First impressions can be very durable.

Naturally, I do not advise ignoring strong indications to the contrary. If someone says he wants from the start to handle the whole nine yards of Rolemaster, then I would suggest taking him at his word rather than wasting time and energy trying to convince him otherwise.

Quote from: One Horse Town;446371First time i played, i had no idea what was going on. Part of the fun was in finding out!

Same here. The process of figuring out mysteries via role-playing was a pleasure in itself, and also inspired my interest in (gradually) learning the number-crunching gadgetry "behind the scenes".

I wouldn't want to be responsible for indoctrinating anyone into the levels/classes/alignment nonsense... so no version/variant of D&D (even though they're probably already familiar with the concepts from video games).

Probably I'd figure out what sort of setting/genre they wanted and use some form of BRP, since it's what I know and like best... and doesn't push the idea that the PCs are heroes and should never be badly hurt.

Quote from: misterguignol;446289I've actually always wanted to check out your game, but I fear its too embedded in its own setting to be what I like.

It has a specific setting--inspired by a fantastic interpretation of Early Christianity, Celtic/Viking Myth, and such--yet I've playtested "Victorian Era" fantasy version, among others. So the setting is there, and there are things in the rules that tie to it. (Mostly PC creation--but its easy enough to swap out Racial traits for new ones more appropriate to your setting.)

Heck I've run a Sword & Sorcery game, using it--it didn't last mostly due to player business..but ah well.

I'd use BFRPG. It combines the best aspects of B/X and 3e D&D. Not very complicated, and uses Ascending AC.

Quote from: One Horse Town;446368I don't buy the theory that more mechanically demanding games are barriers to new players and 'rules lite' games are more likely to make a positive impression.

For a start, if that were actually true, then stuff like Savage Worlds and Dragon Warriors would be gateway games. They aren't.

The game is irrelevant. What is important is that the group welcoming the new player know their stuff, are enthusiastic, both about the game and the newbie and that the new player is eased in gently.

Good point. Also, I chose CoC because IME familiarity with the setting helps a lot, and modern-day horror games have that in spades.

Quote from: Seanchai;446370I was thinking about that and I wonder if people don't immediately think of simplicity because subconsciously they're thinking about the time it takes with more complex games for character building. They want the new players to sit down at the table and get to it immediately.

Well, I agree from my experience that new players may get a bit disoriented with long and complex chargen.

QuoteSpeaking to Call of Cthulhu, I don't like it as a game for new players because it's harder to be successful with.

Again IME, this has never been a deterrent.

Risus.
Over the Edge.
Castle Falkenstein.

..or any other rules-light/freeformish system that can be summarized in a couple of pages and focus on players interaction rather than number crunching.

Quote from: One Horse Town;446368I don't buy the theory that more mechanically demanding games are barriers to new players and 'rules lite' games are more likely to make a positive impression.

For a start, if that were actually true, then stuff like Savage Worlds and Dragon Warriors would be gateway games. They aren't.

I think network externalities also play a huge role in defining which games get to be "gateway drugs", but I do agree with the message:

Quote from: One Horse Town;446368The game is irrelevant. What is important is that the group welcoming the new player know their stuff, are enthusiastic, both about the game and the newbie and that the new player is eased in gently.

Spot on.

Speaking strictly for myself, I've used D&D (RC and 3.5e) for fantasy, CoC (Mythos optional) and nWoD for horror, and Savage Worlds for modern-day cinematic action. I choose the genre which appeals the most to the new player(s). Never had anyone prefer SF or supers, but if I did, I'd break out Mongoose Traveller (if only because character creation is so much fun) and Supers! RPG (super-straightforward and ridiculously rules-lite; the fastest non-random character generation I've ever seen in a supers game).