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Hypothetical scenario: you have the chance to introduce a group of teens who have never played to the world of fantasy RPGs.  What game do you pick as their introduction and why?

D&D 4e.

From the player's end it is easy to understand, color coded for ease of use, and has point and click PC gen. Hard to beat.

It may not be my favorite version of D&D, but it sure is easy on the n00bs.

"Uncomplicated and dumbed down for me," as my n00b wife put it. :D

Quote from: misterguignol;446279Hypothetical scenario: you have the chance to introduce a group of teens who have never played to the world of fantasy RPGs.  What game do you pick as their introduction and why?

Depends on the group, but if I want big world/epicness, High Valor (I wrote it and explain it readily.)  If I want dungeon crawling, Tunnels and Trolls or BECMI D&D, as they're relatively simple and easy to explain as well. BECMI is a middle ground between the two--start with low level dungeon and exploration of the world, and eventually move up to rulers of the land. While High Valor can do dungeon crawling, its more about fighting the good fight against a world threatened by darkness.

Quote from: PaladinCA;446285D&D 4e.

From the player's end it is easy to understand, color coded for ease of use, and has point and click PC gen. Hard to beat.

It may not be my favorite version of D&D, but it sure is easy on the n00bs.

"Uncomplicated and dumbed down for me," as my n00b wife put it. :D

Even easier would be the 4E Essentials "Rules Compendium" and "Heroes of the Fallen Lands" (HotFL) books.

HotFL has the classic base classes (fighter, rogue, wizard, cleric) and races (human, elf, dwarf, halfling).

The 4E Essentials fighter and rogue classes are a lot easier to play than their Heinsoo 4E versions.

Quote from: PaladinCA;446285D&D 4e.

From the player's end it is easy to understand, color coded for ease of use, and has point and click PC gen. Hard to beat.

It may not be my favorite version of D&D, but it sure is easy on the n00bs.

"Uncomplicated and dumbed down for me," as my n00b wife put it. :D

Really?  I like 4e more than most on this site, but I am genuinely surprised at this answer!  Here's why: 4e has a lot of moving parts.  Attributes, skills, powers, feats, healing surges, armor class, etc.

I'm dubious that a complete newbie could really wrap their mind around all of that.

Quote from: Silverlion;446286Depends on the group, but if I want big world/epicness, High Valor (I wrote it and explain it readily.)

I've actually always wanted to check out your game, but I fear its too embedded in its own setting to be what I like.

Quote from: misterguignol;446288Really?  I like 4e more than most on this site, but I am genuinely surprised at this answer!  Here's why: 4e has a lot of moving parts.  Attributes, skills, powers, feats, healing surges, armor class, etc.

I'm dubious that a complete newbie could really wrap their mind around all of that.

Perhaps not a complete newbie.

Though a newbie who has a background of playing a lot of video games, could understand concepts like healing surges, armor class, etc ...

In particular, somebody who has played Everquest or World of Warcraft before.

Quote from: misterguignol;446279Hypothetical scenario: you have the chance to introduce a group of teens who have never played to the world of fantasy RPGs.  What game do you pick as their introduction and why?

I would ask them what sort of fantasy they'd like to play. What ideas they like. If there's something in the world of fantasy that appeals particularly to them (books, movies, whatnot), and why. Some people might like Hogwarts and the wizarding world. Others will want to feel enthused by the idea of exploring Middle-earth. Others still will want to slay giant scorpions or face the Kraken as if playing Clash of the Titans.

Likewise, I will throw some ideas of games and wait for their reaction, paying particular attention to what makes them react positively. If you mention a game exploring dark castles and trying to find out what happened to the family that lived there, say, you might notice some people getting excited about the mystery, others by the idea of kicking the ass of monsters, and so on. The point is to detect what types of activity they'd like in an RPG, and make a choice of game and starting adventure from there.

THEN, I make a decision as to the game that might be most appropriate to bring about what these people feel excited about. Ideas like exploration, swords and sorcery, Conan and the like might push me to use a variation of O/AD&D (could go with Swords & Wizardry, OSRIC, or the middle-of-the-road compromise, Labyrinth Lord). A strong liking of Middle-earth might make me want to use the Decipher game, MERP or something else entirely. Hogwarts and the wizarding world might make me want to use a homebrew variant of Innocents, for the WoD. Likewise, a liking for Lestat, Werewolf/Vampire stories points towards WoD. Etc.

What really matters is to make sure you tailor the game to the people you play with. Take into account your own likes and dislikes obviously (because if you're not yourself excited about what you run, there is no chance in hell to communicate any of that to the players in return), but make sure that the players get what they want, even if they don't know it, or don't have the RPG knowledge to express it. Translate their tastes and excitement into an RPG medium, in other words.

Without a doubt the Swords & Wizardry Quick Start followed by Swords & Wizardry itself.

http://www.rpgnow.com/product_info.php?products_id=63665

Call of Cthulhu.

Quote from: misterguignol;446288I'm dubious that a complete newbie could really wrap their mind around all of that.

They don't have to. They have to wrap their head around what's printed on their character sheet, which is decently codified and pre-calculated.

Moreover, complexity of ideas isn't the issue that folks make it out to be. There are some hideously complex games out there, but in the case of most games, if you can fill out a job application, a tax form, et al., you can create a character. Even on your own.

I'd recommend 4e or Pathfinder because D&D is the lingua franca of the realm. In my estimation, even BD&D would be better than an insular (or insular and simpler) game.

Seanchai

Quote from: Seanchai;446300They don't have to. They have to wrap their head around what's printed on their character sheet, which is decently codified and pre-calculated.

Moreover, complexity of ideas isn't the issue that folks make it out to be. There are some hideously complex games out there, but in the case of most games, if you can fill out a job application, a tax form, et al., you can create a character. Even on your own.

I'd recommend 4e or Pathfinder because D&D is the lingua franca of the realm. In my estimation, even BD&D would be better than an insular (or insular and simpler) game.

Seanchai

That's actually a really good point that I hadn't considered.  Thanks for that.

Quote from: Imperator;446294Call of Cthulhu.

This.

If there was ever any doubt.:)

Well, anything BRP related.

Why?

What better way to warp young minds? And it is what I am most familiar with.

Quote from: misterguignol;446279Hypothetical scenario: you have the chance to introduce a group of teens who have never played to the world of fantasy RPGs.  What game do you pick as their introduction and why?

In the USA/UK:

Tough one.

   Swords & Wizardry Quickstart
A compact intro to D&D style fantasy.
It's (http://www.black-blade-publishing.com/Store/tabid/65/pid/24/Swords-Wizardry-Quick-Start-pdf-.aspx) free (http://rpg.drivethrustuff.com/product_info.php?products_id=63665), and there is a world of free compatible follow-up product available.
The only problem: Polyhedrons not included. Where do n00bs find polyhedrons these days?

Lamentations of the Flame Princess
Writing-wise, this is one of the best introductory games I've ever seen - explanation of basics, solo adventure, the whole works.
The themes are what make this product difficult. The layout style is so out-of-synch with today's fantasy publishing cliches that I can't imagine a teen n00b being drawn to this game.
Another problem: the first edition is not available anymore, and the upcoming "Grindhouse" edition is clearly not suited for teen n00bs.

Dragon Age
The system is ok, DA is a popular license, but there are not enough follow-up products. What should a n00b buy and play after the initial box and one module?

And I would eye The One Ring closely...

In France:

   Chroniques Oubliees
A 3.x inspired introductory game. WoW style artwork, full color throughout, three short adventures included. Character creation is easy: roll abilities, choose class, adjust saves, pick 2 feats (from three thematic lists of 4 each) - go play!
It's compatible with 3.x modules (Pathfinder paths are available in French) although the DM has to fiddle around with rules details, without explanation what and how to adjust.
And if you want to play higher than level 4 you are on your own - the promised full version of the game has not appeared. But once the principle is understood the group can of course switch to Pathfinder (by the same publisher...).

In Germany:

   Dungeonslayers
The second printing of the 4e rules will be wrapped in a real, old fashioned introductory box, with a primer, dice, and adventure.
There are follow-up 1-page modules (10+ free downloads, "Dungeon2Go").



But the true question is: why fantasy?

I would think that there are other genres more popular today - Star Wars (still), romantic vampires, mages in training, Supernatural?

Quote from: Dirk Remmecke;446308Lamentations of the Flame Princess
Writing-wise, this is one of the best introductory games I've ever seen - explanation of basics, solo adventure, the whole works.
The themes are what make this product difficult. The layout style is so out-of-synch with today's fantasy publishing cliches that I can't imagine a teen n00b being drawn to this game.
Another problem: the first edition is not available anymore, and the upcoming "Grindhouse" edition is clearly not suited for teen n00bs.

I think you underestimate how attracted to grotesquery teenagers are! ;)

I will likely be getting the Grindhouse edition just because I like the art I've seen so far, so this one is a possibility.

If I were to go with an "old-school" game I'd rather go with something that this that puts its own spin on the material instead of the somewhat slavish adherence to older-edition D&D-isms that seems to be the bread and butter of some of the OSR crowd.

Quote from: Dirk Remmecke;446308...
Dungeonslayers
The second printing of the 4e rules will be wrapped in a real, old fashioned introductory box, with a primer, dice, and adventure.
There are follow-up 1-page modules (10+ free downloads, "Dungeon2Go").
...

O' yes, and this.

Gamma World 4e box set

GW 4e is the best noob product on the market.  Its well written, chargen is fast and involves their imagination and gameplay involves a board and pieces and thus looks like a game.

Quote from: Imperator;446294Call of Cthulhu.

An interesting thought.  

Quote from: Dirk Remmecke;446308Another problem: the first edition is not available anymore, and the upcoming "Grindhouse" edition is clearly not suited for teen n00bs.

Grandpa, do you remember being a teen?  Who do you think bought all those Fangoria and GoreZone magazines in the 80s?  Who keeps low budget horror movies in business?  Who bought Cannibal Corpse T-shirts?

If Raggi has any marketing sense, he will get the Grindhouse Edition everywhere a teen can possibly find it.  If the mommies start yelling, that's called free advertsing.

Quote from: Spinachcat;446320If Raggi has any marketing sense, he will get the Grindhouse Edition everywhere a teen can possibly find it.  If the mommies start yelling, that's called free advertsing.

I would bet that Raggi is well-aware of how free publicity works, actually.  If it weren't for the tempest in a teacup generated by the more delicate members of the OSR over Lamentations, I doubt a lot of people would have even heard of his game.

CoC with pregen characters works pretty well with noobs - most things are on the sheet and percentages are intuitive to most people. You can bend it to any thing 20th century that isn't too high powered.
 
If they want a classic D&D feel, Basic Fantasy is probably the best, though Labyrinth Lord is good too - I prefer not explaining that better Armor has a lower value. Either stick with that or graduate them to D20.
 
LotFP is a decent choice as all the special abilities are x/6 and are on the charsheet and encumbrance is made explicit.
 
For Conan or pulp fantasy, Barbarians of Lemuria is great - few stats, instead of lots of skills, you have careers and can do anything that career could do. This makes for fewer things on the character sheet to remember.
 
For SF, I'm not sure. The 1Pg system used in Broadsword (another good fantasy option) has all the rules on the charsheet and is easy - there are modern variants and a Traveller version that would work.
 
YOu could also go the really simple route with PDQ, Risus, or similar. This might be the best route if they come from an interactive fiction or online story telling route - there are lots of people who are essentially doing GMless rpgs without rules. They find it easier to adapt to a few rules rather than tons of rules.
 
edit: Yea, the new Gamma World is also a great choice - it's very stripped down from 4e. I'd download some of the free power cards floating around and print them out to help them keep track of what they can do.  the descriptions make it sound like the characters are badass even though it's not really all that high powered.

Quote from: misterguignol;446309If I were to go with an "old-school" game I'd rather go with something that this that puts its own spin on the material instead of the somewhat slavish adherence to older-edition D&D-isms that seems to be the bread and butter of some of the OSR crowd.

You are right with that assessment, but we have to work with what we have. There is no "old school" game that caters to fans of Twilight or

If there were a Harry-Potter-ish S&W variant, or a Vampire Diary/Supernatural one, or a Captain Harlock/Cowboy Bebop/Code Geass one, I'd pick that in a heartbeat.
But that still leaves the problem of product support. A rule book(let) alone is no help, neither for the gaming community/market/scene nor for the n00bs themselves.

Missing support is also the reason why I didn't pick Faery's Tale (http://www.rpg.net/reviews/archive/12/12653.phtml), Ancient Odysseys (http://www.pigames.net/store/default.php?cPath=101), Mouse Guard, or the French Adventure Party (http://www.ludikbazar.com/product_info.php?products_id=47810) - all very fine games. (And I named Dungeonslayers only because the publisher seems to be bent on putting a lot of work in this little game - a setting book is announced, as well as a stand alone SF variant called Starslayers.)

Quote from: Spinachcat;446320Gamma World 4e box set
GW 4e is the best noob product on the market.

I completely forgot GW!
Yes, that one fits.

QuoteGrandpa, do you remember being a teen?  Who do you think bought all those Fangoria and GoreZone magazines in the 80s?

But the general layout and illustration style of LotFP is what I call ..."somewhat slavish adherence to older-edition D&D-isms".

Some (not all) of that b/w stuff looks and feels like over-the-top, out-grossed illustrations from early 80's modules.
And RPG illistration style from that time was not even close to Rich Corben, Moebius, Boucq, Gimenez, et al - stuff that I read as a teen in the 80s.

I am pretty sure that you can't "get" today's teens with the look and feel of the old school renaissance (as much as I love Mullen's Swords & Wizardry cover), gross or not.

But I don't blame Raggi, or anything. He's got his artistic vision and wants to make a product that he likes. Go for it!

Hybrid?

Actually I suspect the Gamma World starter's about as good as it gets these days.

It depends on what they like of course.

Some flavors of GURPS lite game would be okay.  I think having a list of things they can do on the character sheet is very helpful for newbies but you'd need to use pregens or a template that only leaves a few points to play with.

Probably one of the simpler OGL variants -- Swords&Wizardry, Labyrinth Lord or, for a Hungarian audience, the full version of my game (http://fomalhaut.lfg.hu/2011/01/17/sword-and-magic/). There are mechanical differences, but all are easy to generate characters and start gaming with.

I think what matters a lot more is to start with good introductory adventures that sell the idea of roleplaying well - a starting scenario should be actiony enough to be exciting, complex enough to allow for interesting player plans and consequences, and have enough plot hooks to direct the action towards adventure but enough freedom not to constrain it. Finally, when completed, it should provide lots of potential for expansion and further play. There are relatively few good modern starting adventures like that around. The Wizard's Amulet/Crucible of Freya is one (esp. with the expansion material), but I haven't seen anything comparable from the old school small press yet. There are decent dungeons, but nothing that presents the whole wide world and encourages the players to start exploring it.

Quote from: Melan;446342The Wizard's Amulet/Crucible of Freya is one (esp. with the expansion material), but I haven't seen anything comparable from the old school small press yet.

That's a really helpful suggestion, thanks!

Also, it helps if you don't think of these people as "noobs."

Quote from: Benoist;446345Also, it helps if you don't think of these people as "noobs."

No disrespect meant, but it was the easiest shorthand for "people who have no experience with table-top role-playing games," you know?

Another option is to start with a boardgame and then progress into more actual roleplaying.  Boardgames are very concrete, with figures and maps and have built in adventures.  Characters have only a few stats.
 
Examples include Heroquest and Warhammer quest (both old and rare), possibly the new D&D boardgames or WFRP 3e (neither of which I've really tried), the old Thieves World boardgame, and a few othere that I'm blanking on.  
 
After a session or two, tell them that you are going to expand the adventure, giving them things to do other than fight monsters.  Make like a very simple old school game - allow them rolls based on the few stats they have and modified by their actions.

Quote from: misterguignol;446346No disrespect meant, but it was the easiest shorthand for "people who have no experience with table-top role-playing games," you know?

I know. I meant no disrespect either.

It's worth pointing out, however, that thinking in terms of "noobs" might come with a whole series of assumptions which usually will not help making the right choices for the game. I've seen beginners introduced to RPGs via Role Master for instance and It was a real success. These people became long term gamers and are still gaming to this day. I was personally introduced to role playing with First Ed AD&D. So I think we have a tendency as experienced gamers to create a narrow "noob" stereotype that isn't always helpful in our efforts to share our passion.

Depending on their interests, one of nWoD, SWN, Swords and Wizardry, or OpenQuest.

I would use Savage Worlds because:

a) I know it well

b) I have had much success teaching it to multiple completely new role-players (albeit not using fantasy)

and

c) there is quite a bit of "fantasy support" for it.

Sucking up to Pundit but Gnomemurdered.

It's a good laugh and it introduces the concept well with the simplest rules in the buisness.

Labyrinth Lord (and by extension, Basic D&D) is working well in the bar. If I can teach it to adult drunks who then have fun with the game, then it should be fine for kids.

I'd also like to put the word in for d6 Star Wars, especially the late Star Wars Introductory Adventure Game which worked great for getting new gamers started.

I don't buy the theory that more mechanically demanding games are barriers to new players and 'rules lite' games are more likely to make a positive impression.

For a start, if that were actually true, then stuff like Savage Worlds and Dragon Warriors would be gateway games. They aren't.

The game is irrelevant. What is important is that the group welcoming the new player know their stuff, are enthusiastic, both about the game and the newbie and that the new player is eased in gently.

Quote from: One Horse Town;446368I don't buy the theory that more mechanically demanding games are barriers to new players and 'rules lite' games are more likely to make a positive impression.

I was thinking about that and I wonder if people don't immediately think of simplicity because subconsciously they're thinking about the time it takes with more complex games for character building. They want the new players to sit down at the table and get to it immediately.


Speaking to Call of Cthulhu, I don't like it as a game for new players because it's harder to be successful with.

It seems to me that it's pretty easy to come up with, run, play in, and be successful in a save the princess fantasy type scenario.

Running a horror mystery game where the plots tend to be a bit convoluted, where understanding the process of collecting and aggregating clues into meaningful information may not be something the players are familiar with, where description and roleplaying are good bits of the fun, may not turn out too well for people new to gaming.

And, if I understand it correctly, the scenario presented to us is one where the GM is a noob as well.

Seanchai

Quote from: Seanchai;446370I was thinking about that and I wonder if people don't immediately think of simplicity because subconsciously they're thinking about the time it takes with more complex games for character building. They want the new players to sit down at the table and get to it immediately.

Seanchai

First time i played, i had no idea what was going on. Part of the fun was in finding out!

Quote from: One Horse Town;446368The game is irrelevant. What is important is that the group welcoming the new player know their stuff, are enthusiastic, both about the game and the newbie and that the new player is eased in gently.

I agree. Sharing enthusiasm and having a good time playing the game trumps pretty much all system considerations.

If the GM is experienced, and even better if there are experienced players, I agree, the particular system doesn't matter.

If it's a relatively inexperienced group, I do think that a simpler system is better, such as Labyrinth Lord or a specific instantiation of BRP/Runequest. (I.e. CoC, OpenQuest/RQ, but not Chaosium's gold book since it requires too many decisions about campaign setup. Maybe the gold book plus a setting book, but probably not even then because it requires assimilating a set of general rules and then putting a set of special-case rules into context.)

One concern, though, is conveying a good understanding of the role of the GM. I'm not sure which game really does a good job of this.

Unknown Armies or Call Of Cthulhu.
 
1) To warp minds.
2) To get the noobs properly introduced to the concept that their characters will die most gruesome deaths.

"Mechanics"? Whatever suits me!

(1) Role-playing is the prime distinctive and appealing feature of paper-and-pencil RPGs (as opposed to CRPGs, which are basically defined by attention to statistics). The thrill of adventure comes from (for example) descending into the darkness beyond flickering torchlight, following the 'plop' of dripping water toward the Chamber of the Pool. What is that sound from behind? Just the echo of my own footsteps? No, it is a sort of dragging or slithering, that stops when I stop. Now another is joining it. I look for an alcove into which I can step. There! To the side, and turn, and raise brand and blade to confront...

(2) Manipulating reams of technical jargon is in my experience only exceptionally a major part of the initial appeal, whereas piling it on is frequently a major turnoff. This is of course a bigger consideration with a mixed group than with a bunch who are obviously and unanimously looking forward to spending an hour or so listening to or reading rules and doing accounting procedures before making move one, and having each further move slowed down by explication of unfamiliar technicalities.

(3) The quality of the adventure depends chiefly on the GM, and how well the tools at hand suit the GM's style. Genuine "noobs" don't even know thing one about the differences between Rules Set X and Rules Set Y, and probably don't much care.

(4) If someone's interest is not quickly engaged, that wasted chance may be the last. First impressions can be very durable.

Naturally, I do not advise ignoring strong indications to the contrary. If someone says he wants from the start to handle the whole nine yards of Rolemaster, then I would suggest taking him at his word rather than wasting time and energy trying to convince him otherwise.

Quote from: One Horse Town;446371First time i played, i had no idea what was going on. Part of the fun was in finding out!

Same here. The process of figuring out mysteries via role-playing was a pleasure in itself, and also inspired my interest in (gradually) learning the number-crunching gadgetry "behind the scenes".

I wouldn't want to be responsible for indoctrinating anyone into the levels/classes/alignment nonsense... so no version/variant of D&D (even though they're probably already familiar with the concepts from video games).

Probably I'd figure out what sort of setting/genre they wanted and use some form of BRP, since it's what I know and like best... and doesn't push the idea that the PCs are heroes and should never be badly hurt.

Quote from: misterguignol;446289I've actually always wanted to check out your game, but I fear its too embedded in its own setting to be what I like.

It has a specific setting--inspired by a fantastic interpretation of Early Christianity, Celtic/Viking Myth, and such--yet I've playtested "Victorian Era" fantasy version, among others. So the setting is there, and there are things in the rules that tie to it. (Mostly PC creation--but its easy enough to swap out Racial traits for new ones more appropriate to your setting.)

Heck I've run a Sword & Sorcery game, using it--it didn't last mostly due to player business..but ah well.

I'd use BFRPG. It combines the best aspects of B/X and 3e D&D. Not very complicated, and uses Ascending AC.

Quote from: One Horse Town;446368I don't buy the theory that more mechanically demanding games are barriers to new players and 'rules lite' games are more likely to make a positive impression.

For a start, if that were actually true, then stuff like Savage Worlds and Dragon Warriors would be gateway games. They aren't.

The game is irrelevant. What is important is that the group welcoming the new player know their stuff, are enthusiastic, both about the game and the newbie and that the new player is eased in gently.

Good point. Also, I chose CoC because IME familiarity with the setting helps a lot, and modern-day horror games have that in spades.

Quote from: Seanchai;446370I was thinking about that and I wonder if people don't immediately think of simplicity because subconsciously they're thinking about the time it takes with more complex games for character building. They want the new players to sit down at the table and get to it immediately.

Well, I agree from my experience that new players may get a bit disoriented with long and complex chargen.

QuoteSpeaking to Call of Cthulhu, I don't like it as a game for new players because it's harder to be successful with.

Again IME, this has never been a deterrent.

Risus.
Over the Edge.
Castle Falkenstein.

..or any other rules-light/freeformish system that can be summarized in a couple of pages and focus on players interaction rather than number crunching.

Quote from: One Horse Town;446368I don't buy the theory that more mechanically demanding games are barriers to new players and 'rules lite' games are more likely to make a positive impression.

For a start, if that were actually true, then stuff like Savage Worlds and Dragon Warriors would be gateway games. They aren't.

I think network externalities also play a huge role in defining which games get to be "gateway drugs", but I do agree with the message:

Quote from: One Horse Town;446368The game is irrelevant. What is important is that the group welcoming the new player know their stuff, are enthusiastic, both about the game and the newbie and that the new player is eased in gently.

Spot on.

Speaking strictly for myself, I've used D&D (RC and 3.5e) for fantasy, CoC (Mythos optional) and nWoD for horror, and Savage Worlds for modern-day cinematic action. I choose the genre which appeals the most to the new player(s). Never had anyone prefer SF or supers, but if I did, I'd break out Mongoose Traveller (if only because character creation is so much fun) and Supers! RPG (super-straightforward and ridiculously rules-lite; the fastest non-random character generation I've ever seen in a supers game).

I've done this someone recently with WFRP 3.  It went over rather well.  The whole group wasn't noobs, but 3 of the 4 players were.  The noobs took to it very well.  They liked the tactile approach of the game and having all the information in front of them.   They felt a familiarity with the components due to their boardgame like qualities.  They didn't get intimidated by the tome effect since it doesn't exist.

I would probably try to give a fair overview of the major RPGs out there and let them pick the one that appealed to them most.

Quote from: Imperator;446523Again IME, this has never been a deterrent.

It seems to me that the best way to get folks interested in playing an RPG again - the best indicator as to whether or not they'll stick with the hobby - is how much fun they have during their first few sessions. Assuming, of course, they have the personality for RPGs and an interest in them to begin with.

When I say Call of Cthulhu is one of the more difficult games to be successful with for the beginning, I basically mean fun. Not successfully solving a mystery or saving the world, but having fun with the process of doing so. It seems to me that with Call of Cthulhu, it's harder to get past all the confusing bits and get to the full-throttle fun part of the session.

I think this is the case because the confusing bits of Call of Cthulhu aren't the mechanics. Those are pretty straightforward (except, perhaps, elements of combat such as who attacks when and Dodging).

As I said above, I'm not sure running a mystery is something a new GM is going to be skilled at. Or being descriptive in the right places. Or play acting out the NPCs parts and dialogue. Or knowing how to give the PCs that little nudge in just the right place to keep them moving or shift them down a better path.

These are, to my mind, the things that make Call of Cthulhu come alive.

And then there are the players. How skilled are they going to be at solving a mystery? I imagine knowing to look for clues and where to look is pretty basic, but what happens when you reach a seeming dead end? And putting the clues together to reach a decent conclusion?

It seems to me that Call of Cthulhu is a game that requires a more deft touch. I don't imagine a bunch of people staring at each other across a table, confused about what to do would be very fun...

A game like D&D, however, offers an easy and straight path. If an NPC says, "Go rescue the princess in the tower!," it doesn't take much in the way of player or GM skill to make that happen.

Seanchai

Assuming the OP means that we'd be running this new group through their first experience and not just handing them a pile of books and telling them to go at it....

I would find out what genre the potential player is interested in first: fantasy, s-f, horror, modern, etc.  From there I would walk them thru creating a character and teach them the ropes as we play.  It's a method that's worked for the majority of new gamers I've brought into my group.

As far as the specific games I've used: B/X D&D, 1e Gamma World, RoleMaster 2e, AD&D, and RPGsite member GrimJesta introduced my fiance to RPGs with Savage Worlds.

Rules weight never really seemed to be a factor (hell, I've heard pre-teens arguing over every last modifier in a Warhammer 40k game with the same passion I used to argue over LOS and hindrance DRMs playing ASL).  It was always more important to run a game the new person would be interested in, and they would pick up how the game works in play.

Quote from: SeanchaiAs I said above, I'm not sure running a mystery is something a new GM is going to be skilled at.

Enough first-timers have managed well enough to have made How to Host a Murder a success among a demographic mainly made up of people who were not "fantasy gamers".

Quote from: Seanchai;446634...
It seems to me that Call of Cthulhu is a game that requires a more deft touch. I don't imagine a bunch of people staring at each other across a table, confused about what to do would be very fun...

A game like D&D, however, offers an easy and straight path. If an NPC says, "Go rescue the princess in the tower!," it doesn't take much in the way of player or GM skill to make that happen.

Seanchai

I have never had that problem.

Most of the folks I hang around with have no interest in fantasy. I do, however, belong to a Horror Club. We meet, watch movies, book club, dress-up as monsters and every now and again I have the opportunity to introduce someone to Call of Cthulhu or another horror rpg. There is no confusion about what to do, we've already a pretty firm grasp of the tropes involved.

Quote from: Seanchai;446634...
As I said above, I'm not sure running a mystery is something a new GM is going to be skilled at. ...

I do not see anything in the OP that says I have to be a new GM. I am definitely not going to let them play without me.:)

For that matter, 221B Baker Street is a popular mystery-solving board game, and Sherlock Holmes Consulting Detective something a bit like the old RPG gamebooks (Fighting Fantasy, Lone Wolf, etc.), with no Game Master at all. The game-mechanical algorithms handle the correlation of clues and case.

Quote from: SeanchaiOr being descriptive in the right places. Or play acting out the NPCs parts and dialogue.

In other words, being a GM for a role-playing game. This is nothing peculiar to CoC.

My goodness, if only we had known how hard it is supposed to be, we kids might have passed up Dungeons & Dragons and Tunnels & Trolls back in the day!

In the event, we -- like the people who invented the games and wrote the handbooks -- were so ignorant of the purported difficulty of the undertaking that we just went ahead and did it anyway. In fact, it just seemed to come naturally, without even much mention in the text.

Quote from: PaladinCA;446285D&D 4e.

From the player's end it is easy to understand, color coded for ease of use, and has point and click PC gen. Hard to beat.

It may not be my favorite version of D&D, but it sure is easy on the n00bs.

"Uncomplicated and dumbed down for me," as my n00b wife put it. :D

Honestly, I thought this too, and went with it. My fiance, however, disliked it immediately because I ran her through the Essentials Red Box and then started out DMing her, her teen son, and his friend through the intro adventure in the box and now I'm having a hard time convincing her to play anything else because her idea of "roleplaying gaming" is a tactical minis game. I should have went with my instincts and gone with S&W or LL along with a simple starter area like Larm, or even KotB.

Quote from: ggroy;446287Even easier would be the 4E Essentials "Rules Compendium" and "Heroes of the Fallen Lands" (HotFL) books.

HotFL has the classic base classes (fighter, rogue, wizard, cleric) and races (human, elf, dwarf, halfling).

The 4E Essentials fighter and rogue classes are a lot easier to play than their Heinsoo 4E versions.

Sorry for the slightly off-topic question, but I saw a copy of the Compendium for cheap at a local place, and wondered: Can you run a game out of the Rules Compendium, if you own no other 4E products?

In other words, can a guy like me (played plenty of 2E, played the video game Neverwinter Nights and its sequel) pick up that book and do some roleplayin'?

Quote from: Kaz;446659Sorry for the slightly off-topic question, but I saw a copy of the Compendium for cheap at a local place, and wondered: Can you run a game out of the Rules Compendium, if you own no other 4E products?

In other words, can a guy like me (played plenty of 2E, played the video game Neverwinter Nights and its sequel) pick up that book and do some roleplayin'?

The 4E Essential "Rules Compendium" doesn't have the class powers.

At minimum, one would also need the 4E Essentials "Heroes of the Fallen Lands" book or one of the older 4E Players Handbooks, which lists the class powers, weapons, etc ....

Ah. That's too bad.

I was kinda hoping I could make a small investment and have a pocket-esque sized rulebook of the World's Most Popular Roleplaying Game! to whip out when the mood struck.

Quote from: Sigmund;446651Honestly, I thought this too, and went with it. My fiance, however, disliked it immediately because I ran her through the Essentials Red Box and then started out DMing her, her teen son, and his friend through the intro adventure in the box and now I'm having a hard time convincing her to play anything else because her idea of "roleplaying gaming" is a tactical minis game. I should have went with my instincts and gone with S&W or LL along with a simple starter area like Larm, or even KotB.

I'm running KotB with Labyrinth Lord right now. It seems to be going pretty well. It probably would be a good intro game for people that have never played before. PC Gen was certainly simple enough.

Quote from: hanszurcher;446646I do not see anything in the OP that says I have to be a new GM.

You know what? I went back and looked, and you're right. I still don't think Call of Cthulhu is an optimal choice for new players, regardless of GM, but having an experienced GM does definitely do away with some of my concerns.

Seanchai

Quote from: Ian Warner;446362Sucking up to Pundit but Gnomemurdered.

It's a good laugh and it introduces the concept well with the simplest rules in the buisness.

I could see Gnomemurdered being a hit with the young people these days, what with their hipping and their hopping, and juvenile delinquency being what it is and whatnot.

That said, for a total newb, I would go with Rules Cyclopedia D&D; or failing that, "Forward... to Adventure!".

RPGPundit

Creepy. While I was out today, I bought a copy of the Rules Cyclopedia! I started a separate thread about it.

If I were going to introduce some peeps to RPG, it would likely depend on what they were into. And either use the nWoD rules for some kind of investigative adventure or I'd use Savage Worlds and set up a session set in whatever genre everyone said they were into the most at the time.

Last night I got volunteered to start running a regular Saturday morning game for my friends' kids... additional to my (very) randomly  scheduled Beatrix Potter campaign (different group of kids)...
The boys like Harry Potter & Lemony Snickets... which I know very little about... but after talking to them I'm planning to use CoC to run a quasi-Victorian urban fantasy with crossover into the Dreamlands setting... tweaked to include some ideas they had. No overt Mythos stuff... only a bit scary, way more fantasy/mystery... Oliver Twist crossed with Lord Dunsany.

I'm not going to write much ahead of time, because we're gonna make it up as we go... but in honor of Seanchai I'll include a princess in need of rescuing...

Quote from: Simlasa;447053...I'm planning to use CoC to run a quasi-Victorian urban fantasy with crossover into the Dreamlands setting... tweaked to include some ideas they had. No overt Mythos stuff... only a bit scary, way more fantasy/mystery... Oliver Twist crossed with Lord Dunsany.

I'm not going to write much ahead of time, because we're gonna make it up as we go... but in honor of Seanchai I'll include a princess in need of rescuing...

Very cool.

I thought about doing the same, with the princess. But I was going to give her an evil Quato, which the players could potentially release onto the world. Maybe that princess was locked away for a reason.