Quote from: Ryan L.;413237So Ron Edwards has declared victory for the Forge, and with victory comes the closing of the site...

Ya, I don't get it either.

Considering all the bullshit, doublespeak, hate and discontent that the Forge has generated in gamerdom - to claim victory by closing the site is just standard operating procedure for Ron Edwards.

Good for them, I guess.

I tried visiting the Forge and could never make heads or tails of what Ron Edwards said about anything, ever. I like some of the "Forge-y" games (Burning Wheel, Dogs in the Vineyard) but the theorywank stuff just makes me want to go lie down.

Quote from: Melan;413256Dunno. Not a fan of Ron or his forums, but that's a sensible thing to say for something that has run its course. Pack up, keep a time capsule around for web diggers from the future, and call it done. Closure. Closure is good. A lingering, wasting death is not good.

Except thats not even remotely similar to what he's really doing. Its not even what he's claiming to be doing.  He might have been better able to get away with claiming "well, we're closing shop, its done now so we'll fade away", but no, he's there, disemboweled and dismembered, gasping his last blood-soaked breath, and trying to pretend that he's having a victory parade as a conquering hero.

RPGpundit

Quote from: One Horse Town;413260This is really Ron and Vincent's last attempt to stay relevant - notice that their sub-forums will stay open! They were long since overtaken at the Forge by younger, better writers that basically used them, took the bits that would survive in the wider marketplace and "sold out". Cats like Donohue, Hicks, Crane et al.

Silly them, wanting to make more that $100 dollars with their games.

The only battle that Ron has won is making online forums a morass of shit for a few years.

Well put, and yes, ultimately, this was the one biggest fundamental flaw with the Forge Ideology: anyone with even a modicum of actual talent would never accept making less money than they could for the sake of some kind of flawed idea that "making money makes you a sell-out".  That's why the Forge was in a self-fulfilling death spiral of failure; it appealed only to those so talentless that they had no hope of succeeding as game designers, so the Forge appealed to them because it turned their lack of sales into some kind of a virtue.  

RPGPundit

Quote from: jeff37923;413264Considering all the bullshit, doublespeak, hate and discontent that the Forge has generated in gamerdom - to claim victory by closing the site is just standard operating procedure for Ron Edwards.

Very true. I guess I shouldn't have been surprised, that the man who made a career of calling white "black" and calling day "night"; of claiming a game was successful because it DIDN'T sell in vast quantities, of claiming that "fun" was something achieved by minimizing any potential for the unexpected, should now choose to end himself by claiming that the absolute and utter defeat of his entire ideology should be called "victory".

RPGPundit

Quote from: Spinachcat;413261Then you weren't listening.

Ron's battle was to make Narrative games and non-traditional RPG design into a significant niche within the RPG hobby.   He did that.   He won his battle.  

There are all-Indie conventions and Indie games have a few tables to many tables at RPG conventions worldwide.   In SoCal even though the local cons are RPG graveyards, Indie fans can play Indie games all weekend and even have competing events happening in the same time slots.  

Was the battle to overcome D&D?  No, Ron's weird but not stupid nor delusional.  He knows there were potential RPG fans out there for non-trad games and he built them a fledgling community that spawned dozens of game designers some who have built their own communities.    That was his goal and now he apparently feels its time to move on to something else.  

From nothing, he made something.   I don't care for his creation, but it has certainly brought lots of fun to those who enjoy Indie games.

Kudos to Ron.   Bowing out is better than fading out.

I thought that Ron's battle was to encourage and promote self-publishing, basically saying that anyone can make the game that they want to play and have that game published?  I'm probably mistaken, but it always seemed to be more about pushing people to break from the idea that only the big companies can put games in peoples hands.

I'm not a fan of his (at all) but from the reaction of a lot of indie-games/story-games publishers after this announcement it seemed that his "battle" was more focused on getting people to create than it was to revolutionize the way people play.

Both you and Spinachat are presenting differing versions of the official "Forge Propaganda".  His is the more accurate one of the two of course. The Forge and Edwards liked to pretend that they were "just about the publishing" when it suited them, usually when someone was pointing out that they were trying to force RPGs to be something they're not; but fundamentally, they existed to try to do that, to change RPGs into something utterly different to serve a tiny group of would-be elites.

The publishing thing was utter bullshit and weak sauce right from the start. There was never any need to have "independent publishing" promoted.  There have always been and continue to be massive amounts of small-press RPGs being published, right back since the time that Edwards was in diapers (in the 70s, back when he was about 12 years old), until today.

So there would have been no need whatsoever for the Forge if that was all they were for. No, they were "for" trying to change the fundamental nature of RPGs.

RPGPundit

Quote from: RPGPundit;413306So there would have been no need whatsoever for the Forge if that was all they were for. No, they were "for" trying to change the fundamental nature of RPGs.

RPGPundit

That's what makes the exclamation of victory so retarded.

Have some ideas from Forge design become more mainstream? I think that can't be denied.

Have RPGs been fundamentally changed because of this? Quite obviously no.

So it really comes back to Ron & Vinny desperately looking for attention as their own progeny have embraced the material sphere and rejected the ideological one.

Just the opposite, really; instead of Forge-Swine changing the fundamental nature of RPGs, the fundamental nature of RPGs changed all of the more talented Forgers into RPG designers.  Leaving behind people like Ron Edwards, Vince Baker, etc. in the dust, the failed refuse of a failed ideology.

RPGs ate them.

RPGPundit

Quote from: RPGPundit;413323Just the opposite, really; instead of Forge-Swine changing the fundamental nature of RPGs, the fundamental nature of RPGs changed all of the more talented Forgers into RPG designers.  Leaving behind people like Ron Edwards, Vince Baker, etc. in the dust, the failed refuse of a failed ideology.

RPGs ate them.

RPGPundit

You see the exact same thing in local music scenes when a band "makes it." Man their old stuff is better than their new stuff. They've sold out etc. Ron and Baker had one solid (by Forge standards) hit each. Then both went off the deepend and started performing self-fellatio. Until recently they had a few cultists hanging about to give them head when their necks and backs were sore.

Quote from: Insufficient Metal;413265Good for them, I guess.

I tried visiting the Forge and could never make heads or tails of what Ron Edwards said about anything, ever. I like some of the "Forge-y" games (Burning Wheel, Dogs in the Vineyard) but the theorywank stuff just makes me want to go lie down.

That's exactly how I feel - spot on.

Anyone declaring "victory: in something so niche and under-the-radar of the international conciousness as RPG gaming and game theory is so delusional and idiotic as to be possibly mentally ill.

It was stupid and idiotic for Edwards to claim any kind of "victory", when his ideas are as niche and ignored as they ever were.

For Pundit do declare "victory" over a guy who has been marginalized and was never a massive influence, and then to claim some sort of place of honor in a hobby that is both small, ignored and fractured, not to mention that this forums influence in any hobby-wide way is ridiculous.  RPG.net has no influence, ENworld has no influence, and theRPGsite has no influence.  It is an echochamber where people get together and bullshit about games.

Gaming is as it always was, down to individual people.  Most of the people I know and game with, or meet through gaming events and demos, don't even talk gaming on the internet, and don't know the existence of gaming forums, or if they do just ignore them altogether.

Anyone thinking anything done on this site, or RPG.net, or The Forge that actually MEANS something is delusional.

I go here, and elsewhere, to get ideas, talk about stuff, and generally waste time or get help in planning my games.

That this is the biggest, most important, and defining moments of Pundit's life is sad and makes me pity him.  It's like Western Samoa bragging they conquered Vanuatu.

Quote from: Hackmastergeneral;413355Anyone declaring "victory: in something so niche and under-the-radar of the international conciousness as RPG gaming and game theory is so delusional and idiotic as to be possibly mentally ill.

It was stupid and idiotic for Edwards to claim any kind of "victory", when his ideas are as niche and ignored as they ever were.

For Pundit do declare "victory" over a guy who has been marginalized and was never a massive influence, and then to claim some sort of place of honor in a hobby that is both small, ignored and fractured, not to mention that this forums influence in any hobby-wide way is ridiculous.  RPG.net has no influence, ENworld has no influence, and theRPGsite has no influence.  It is an echochamber where people get together and bullshit about games.

Gaming is as it always was, down to individual people.  Most of the people I know and game with, or meet through gaming events and demos, don't even talk gaming on the internet, and don't know the existence of gaming forums, or if they do just ignore them altogether.

Anyone thinking anything done on this site, or RPG.net, or The Forge that actually MEANS something is delusional.

I go here, and elsewhere, to get ideas, talk about stuff, and generally waste time or get help in planning my games.

That this is the biggest, most important, and defining moments of Pundit's life is sad and makes me pity him.  It's like Western Samoa bragging they conquered Vanuatu.

Hmm, interesting. And what does it say about the fact you can't stop posting about it? You're the guy who hates Western Samoa so very much that you literally can't make yourself stop telling people about how much you hate it, even though you know (and multiple people have commented) on how much of an idiot its making you look like.

I'm loving those bitter, bitter tears.

RPGPundit

All this GNS stuff never made sense to me. I found discussing it interesting for about five minutes. Then my eyes glazed over.

I've always thought that FUN was the most important thing about RPGs. I'm a Cheetoist more than anything else.

People, Snacks, Setting, and System = Fun.

All that theory stuff has been a waste of time and energy for me.

If some GNS elements produce a fun game, then great. If not, then what was the point?

Quote from: Benoist;413240What the fuck does that even mean? What was that battle that had to be won?
What was the Bang all about? I didn't even hear it!!

and what's a 'winter stage'?