So Ron Edwards has declared victory for the Forge, and with victory comes the closing of the site...
Ya, I don't get it either.
Details here. (http://www.indie-rpgs.com/forge/index.php?topic=30635.0)
QuoteHi everybody,
I aim to move the Forge into its winter stage by the end of the year. For those of you who don't know this, I announced quite a while ago that the Forge was never intended to be a permanent site. Especially since, well, bluntly, I (and Clinton, and Ed Healy, and a lot of other people active at the founding) have unequivocally won the battle we wanted to win. "The Big Bang has Bung," I like to say.
That's the main reason besides time and effort that I have never tried to update the Forge into a physical format more suited to 2010 rather than 1999.
However, it's been a slow process to downsize, and sometimes stalled. That's a time and effort thing too, but it's also a matter of deciding exactly how. You see, I want the site to be good throughout the whole process - it may surprise some of you, but I do not think downsizing and closure are a bad thing and necessarily about disuse, stagnation, and failure. I'm kind of hoping the final phase, "winter," will be a really good thing.
Vincent and I came up with a partial plan, which we'll iron out in terms of software and policy details for a little while before implementing. Comments are welcome, but bear in mind, this is not a democracy and your input may well be ignored. The main reason I'm posting it is policy transparency, so you can decide whether the winter-Forge is somewhere you care about and think you can make use of.
1. Most publisher forums will be moved to the Archives. I am hoping that we can either continue to host or to transfer forums to the publishers' ownership, if desired, but they will no longer be an active feature via the Forge page itself. (Please do not post with helpful software advice. Vincent will make his own decisions about that, and I frankly know nothing about it, so it won't help me.)
1'. For purposes of blunt self-interest, the Lumpley and Adept forums will remain, at least for a while. Or maybe they'll go with the others if the whole transfer-technology proves to be easy.
2. The Conventions and Connections forums will go to the Archives. Those services can be picked up by anyone who wants to start them elsewhere.
3. Some of the First Thoughts functions and the Playtesting function will be combined into "Development," which is intended to be a very practical forum about games in design. First Thoughts will go the Archives and Actual Play will go back to where it once was, the top of the page, with an introduction encouraging first users to post there (and how).
4. The current Endeavor forum(s) will go into the Archives, but temporary versions will be implemented on request for a given project. So you know, I'm thinking of resurrecting the Ronnies in early December, in somewhat more practical form.
Well, that was pretty much what Vincent and I talked about. To summarize, the forums are to become (in order), Actual Play, Development, Publishing, and sometimes a specific Endeavor; plus perhaps the Adept and Lumpley forums until they find their new homes.
Let Vincent know if you want your Publisher forum to stay active and you can work out the details of how and all that in that computer talk.
Best, Ron
What the fuck does that even mean? What was that battle that had to be won?
What was the Bang all about? I didn't even hear it!!
Quote from: Benoist;413240What the fuck does that even mean? What was that battle that had to be won?
What was the Bang all about? I didn't even hear it!!
I recall Steve Albini saying at a Big Black concert that it was their last show, that they were going to break up because they were about to become popular.
Maybe that's what it is?
Ron Edwards is a... Oh fuck it I just can't be bothered with this prick anymore.
Quote from: thedungeondelver;413241I recall Steve Albini saying at a Big Black concert that it was their last show, that they were going to break up because they were about to become popular.
Maybe that's what it is?
"The backbone of this country is the independent truck." \m/--\m/
man, i love Big Black. :D
Le Victory is really a McFailure? :rolleyes:
Quote from: kregmosier;413243"the backbone of this country is the independent truck." \m/--\m/
man, i love big black. :d
probably come to die in this town -
live here my whole life!
Quote from: Benoist;413240What was the Bang all about? I didn't even hear it!!
You did. It was that Pffffft sound. Remember, everyone turned around and said, "Who farted?"
Seanchai
Dunno. Not a fan of Ron or his forums, but that's a sensible thing to say for something that has run its course. Pack up, keep a time capsule around for web diggers from the future, and call it done. Closure. Closure is good. A lingering, wasting death is not good.
The shark jumping the Ron Edwards.
Quote from: ggroy;413257The shark jumping the Ron Edwards.
Wins the thread.
This is really Ron and Vincent's last attempt to stay relevant - notice that their sub-forums will stay open! They were long since overtaken at the Forge by younger, better writers that basically used them, took the bits that would survive in the wider marketplace and "sold out". Cats like Donohue, Hicks, Crane et al.
Silly them, wanting to make more that $100 dollars with their games.
The only battle that Ron has won is making online forums a morass of shit for a few years.
Quote from: Benoist;413240What the fuck does that even mean? What was that battle that had to be won?
What was the Bang all about? I didn't even hear it!!
Then you weren't listening.
Ron's battle was to make Narrative games and non-traditional RPG design into a significant niche within the RPG hobby. He did that. He won his battle.
There are all-Indie conventions and Indie games have a few tables to many tables at RPG conventions worldwide. In SoCal even though the local cons are RPG graveyards, Indie fans can play Indie games all weekend and even have competing events happening in the same time slots.
Was the battle to overcome D&D? No, Ron's weird but not stupid nor delusional. He knows there were potential RPG fans out there for non-trad games and he built them a fledgling community that spawned dozens of game designers some who have built their own communities. That was his goal and now he apparently feels its time to move on to something else.
From nothing, he made something. I don't care for his creation, but it has certainly brought lots of fun to those who enjoy Indie games.
Kudos to Ron. Bowing out is better than fading out.
Quote from: Spinachcat;413261Kudos to Ron. Bowing out is better than fading out.
If only other individuals (ie. Skarka, Dancey, etc ...) would follow Ron's lead to the exit. :rolleyes:
Quote from: Spinachcat;413261Then you weren't listening.
Ron's battle was to make Narrative games and non-traditional RPG design into a significant niche within the RPG hobby. He did that. He won his battle.
There are all-Indie conventions and Indie games have a few tables to many tables at RPG conventions worldwide. In SoCal even though the local cons are RPG graveyards, Indie fans can play Indie games all weekend and even have competing events happening in the same time slots.
Was the battle to overcome D&D? No, Ron's weird but not stupid nor delusional. He knows there were potential RPG fans out there for non-trad games and he built them a fledgling community that spawned dozens of game designers some who have built their own communities. That was his goal and now he apparently feels its time to move on to something else.
From nothing, he made something. I don't care for his creation, but it has certainly brought lots of fun to those who enjoy Indie games.
Kudos to Ron. Bowing out is better than fading out.
"apres moi, le deluge" eh?
Quote from: Ryan L.;413237So Ron Edwards has declared victory for the Forge, and with victory comes the closing of the site...
Ya, I don't get it either.
Considering all the bullshit, doublespeak, hate and discontent that the Forge has generated in gamerdom - to claim victory by closing the site is just standard operating procedure for Ron Edwards.
Good for them, I guess.
I tried visiting the Forge and could never make heads or tails of what Ron Edwards said about anything, ever. I like some of the "Forge-y" games (Burning Wheel, Dogs in the Vineyard) but the theorywank stuff just makes me want to go lie down.
Quote from: Melan;413256Dunno. Not a fan of Ron or his forums, but that's a sensible thing to say for something that has run its course. Pack up, keep a time capsule around for web diggers from the future, and call it done. Closure. Closure is good. A lingering, wasting death is not good.
Except thats not even remotely similar to what he's really doing. Its not even what he's claiming to be doing. He might have been better able to get away with claiming "well, we're closing shop, its done now so we'll fade away", but no, he's there, disemboweled and dismembered, gasping his last blood-soaked breath, and trying to pretend that he's having a victory parade as a conquering hero.
RPGpundit
Quote from: One Horse Town;413260This is really Ron and Vincent's last attempt to stay relevant - notice that their sub-forums will stay open! They were long since overtaken at the Forge by younger, better writers that basically used them, took the bits that would survive in the wider marketplace and "sold out". Cats like Donohue, Hicks, Crane et al.
Silly them, wanting to make more that $100 dollars with their games.
The only battle that Ron has won is making online forums a morass of shit for a few years.
Well put, and yes, ultimately, this was the one biggest fundamental flaw with the Forge Ideology: anyone with even a modicum of actual talent would never accept making less money than they could for the sake of some kind of flawed idea that "making money makes you a sell-out". That's why the Forge was in a self-fulfilling death spiral of failure; it appealed only to those so talentless that they had no hope of succeeding as game designers, so the Forge appealed to them because it turned their lack of sales into some kind of a virtue.
RPGPundit
Quote from: jeff37923;413264Considering all the bullshit, doublespeak, hate and discontent that the Forge has generated in gamerdom - to claim victory by closing the site is just standard operating procedure for Ron Edwards.
Very true. I guess I shouldn't have been surprised, that the man who made a career of calling white "black" and calling day "night"; of claiming a game was successful because it DIDN'T sell in vast quantities, of claiming that "fun" was something achieved by minimizing any potential for the unexpected, should now choose to end himself by claiming that the absolute and utter defeat of his entire ideology should be called "victory".
RPGPundit
Quote from: Spinachcat;413261Then you weren't listening.
Ron's battle was to make Narrative games and non-traditional RPG design into a significant niche within the RPG hobby. He did that. He won his battle.
There are all-Indie conventions and Indie games have a few tables to many tables at RPG conventions worldwide. In SoCal even though the local cons are RPG graveyards, Indie fans can play Indie games all weekend and even have competing events happening in the same time slots.
Was the battle to overcome D&D? No, Ron's weird but not stupid nor delusional. He knows there were potential RPG fans out there for non-trad games and he built them a fledgling community that spawned dozens of game designers some who have built their own communities. That was his goal and now he apparently feels its time to move on to something else.
From nothing, he made something. I don't care for his creation, but it has certainly brought lots of fun to those who enjoy Indie games.
Kudos to Ron. Bowing out is better than fading out.
I thought that Ron's battle was to encourage and promote self-publishing, basically saying that anyone can make the game that they want to play and have that game published? I'm probably mistaken, but it always seemed to be more about pushing people to break from the idea that only the big companies can put games in peoples hands.
I'm not a fan of his (at all) but from the reaction of a lot of indie-games/story-games publishers after this announcement it seemed that his "battle" was more focused on getting people to create than it was to revolutionize the way people play.
Both you and Spinachat are presenting differing versions of the official "Forge Propaganda". His is the more accurate one of the two of course. The Forge and Edwards liked to pretend that they were "just about the publishing" when it suited them, usually when someone was pointing out that they were trying to force RPGs to be something they're not; but fundamentally, they existed to try to do that, to change RPGs into something utterly different to serve a tiny group of would-be elites.
The publishing thing was utter bullshit and weak sauce right from the start. There was never any need to have "independent publishing" promoted. There have always been and continue to be massive amounts of small-press RPGs being published, right back since the time that Edwards was in diapers (in the 70s, back when he was about 12 years old), until today.
So there would have been no need whatsoever for the Forge if that was all they were for. No, they were "for" trying to change the fundamental nature of RPGs.
RPGPundit
Quote from: RPGPundit;413306So there would have been no need whatsoever for the Forge if that was all they were for. No, they were "for" trying to change the fundamental nature of RPGs.
RPGPundit
That's what makes the exclamation of victory so retarded.
Have some ideas from Forge design become more mainstream? I think that can't be denied.
Have RPGs been fundamentally changed because of this? Quite obviously no.
So it really comes back to Ron & Vinny desperately looking for attention as their own progeny have embraced the material sphere and rejected the ideological one.
Just the opposite, really; instead of Forge-Swine changing the fundamental nature of RPGs, the fundamental nature of RPGs changed all of the more talented Forgers into RPG designers. Leaving behind people like Ron Edwards, Vince Baker, etc. in the dust, the failed refuse of a failed ideology.
RPGs ate them.
RPGPundit
Quote from: RPGPundit;413323Just the opposite, really; instead of Forge-Swine changing the fundamental nature of RPGs, the fundamental nature of RPGs changed all of the more talented Forgers into RPG designers. Leaving behind people like Ron Edwards, Vince Baker, etc. in the dust, the failed refuse of a failed ideology.
RPGs ate them.
RPGPundit
You see the exact same thing in local music scenes when a band "makes it." Man their old stuff is better than their new stuff. They've sold out etc. Ron and Baker had one solid (by Forge standards) hit each. Then both went off the deepend and started performing self-fellatio. Until recently they had a few cultists hanging about to give them head when their necks and backs were sore.
Quote from: Insufficient Metal;413265Good for them, I guess.
I tried visiting the Forge and could never make heads or tails of what Ron Edwards said about anything, ever. I like some of the "Forge-y" games (Burning Wheel, Dogs in the Vineyard) but the theorywank stuff just makes me want to go lie down.
That's exactly how I feel - spot on.
Anyone declaring "victory: in something so niche and under-the-radar of the international conciousness as RPG gaming and game theory is so delusional and idiotic as to be possibly mentally ill.
It was stupid and idiotic for Edwards to claim any kind of "victory", when his ideas are as niche and ignored as they ever were.
For Pundit do declare "victory" over a guy who has been marginalized and was never a massive influence, and then to claim some sort of place of honor in a hobby that is both small, ignored and fractured, not to mention that this forums influence in any hobby-wide way is ridiculous. RPG.net has no influence, ENworld has no influence, and theRPGsite has no influence. It is an echochamber where people get together and bullshit about games.
Gaming is as it always was, down to individual people. Most of the people I know and game with, or meet through gaming events and demos, don't even talk gaming on the internet, and don't know the existence of gaming forums, or if they do just ignore them altogether.
Anyone thinking anything done on this site, or RPG.net, or The Forge that actually MEANS something is delusional.
I go here, and elsewhere, to get ideas, talk about stuff, and generally waste time or get help in planning my games.
That this is the biggest, most important, and defining moments of Pundit's life is sad and makes me pity him. It's like Western Samoa bragging they conquered Vanuatu.
Quote from: Hackmastergeneral;413355Anyone declaring "victory: in something so niche and under-the-radar of the international conciousness as RPG gaming and game theory is so delusional and idiotic as to be possibly mentally ill.
It was stupid and idiotic for Edwards to claim any kind of "victory", when his ideas are as niche and ignored as they ever were.
For Pundit do declare "victory" over a guy who has been marginalized and was never a massive influence, and then to claim some sort of place of honor in a hobby that is both small, ignored and fractured, not to mention that this forums influence in any hobby-wide way is ridiculous. RPG.net has no influence, ENworld has no influence, and theRPGsite has no influence. It is an echochamber where people get together and bullshit about games.
Gaming is as it always was, down to individual people. Most of the people I know and game with, or meet through gaming events and demos, don't even talk gaming on the internet, and don't know the existence of gaming forums, or if they do just ignore them altogether.
Anyone thinking anything done on this site, or RPG.net, or The Forge that actually MEANS something is delusional.
I go here, and elsewhere, to get ideas, talk about stuff, and generally waste time or get help in planning my games.
That this is the biggest, most important, and defining moments of Pundit's life is sad and makes me pity him. It's like Western Samoa bragging they conquered Vanuatu.
Hmm, interesting. And what does it say about the fact you can't stop posting about it? You're the guy who hates Western Samoa so very much that you literally can't make yourself stop telling people about how much you hate it, even though you know (and multiple people have commented) on how much of an idiot its making you look like.
I'm loving those bitter, bitter tears.
RPGPundit
All this GNS stuff never made sense to me. I found discussing it interesting for about five minutes. Then my eyes glazed over.
I've always thought that FUN was the most important thing about RPGs. I'm a Cheetoist more than anything else.
People, Snacks, Setting, and System = Fun.
All that theory stuff has been a waste of time and energy for me.
If some GNS elements produce a fun game, then great. If not, then what was the point?
Quote from: Benoist;413240What the fuck does that even mean? What was that battle that had to be won?
What was the Bang all about? I didn't even hear it!!
and what's a 'winter stage'?
(http://images.memegenerator.net/Sheldon-Cooper/ImageMacro/1811251/youre-coitusing-with-me-arent-you.jpg)
A cute comic
(http://i53.tinypic.com/25ioncz.png)
Quote from: Ryan L.;413329You see the exact same thing in local music scenes when a band "makes it." Man their old stuff is better than their new stuff. They've sold out etc. Ron and Baker had one solid (by Forge standards) hit each. Then both went off the deepend and started performing self-fellatio. Until recently they had a few cultists hanging about to give them head when their necks and backs were sore.
That's just Baker playing Apocalype World-LARP.
Quote from: boulet;413385A cute comic
(http://i53.tinypic.com/25ioncz.png)
Ha! This deserves to be repeated!
Wasn't a shitty 4chan-like meme enough one time? :/
Quote from: Benoist;413240What the fuck does that even mean? What was that battle that had to be won?
What was the Bang all about? I didn't even hear it!!
More importantly: "Winter stage"?
SERIOUSLY?
Quote from: Tommy Brownell;413458More importantly: "Winter stage"?
SERIOUSLY?
Mr. Edwards takes auto-fellatio to unheard of levels.
"Mission accomplished! Whatever that was".
-TIME Cartoons of the Week on troops coming back from Iraq, AUG 2010
Well, I guess I know my blog topic for tomorrow morning.
Quote from: Tommy Brownell;413458More importantly: "Winter stage"?
SERIOUSLY?
Well, that is the time in Pendragon when, if you're lucky, you might cop a feel of your girlfriend's boobies. So given his and Vinny's proclivities, i think it's pretty apt. :rotfl:
I've never been to the forsge after seeing some people here leave a link to an article on it comparing RPGers to rape victims.
That said frankly I don't really care about pundit's squabble with their ron edwards guy, whom I know nothing about whatsoever and have never bought a game product with his name on it, and wish this sort of pissing was confined to pundit's forum.
Now fights with rpg.net are OK with me, as I do know about and hate that cesspool of arrogant scum, but the forge really hold no interest for me. It could disappear tomorrow or go on forever, wither way wouldn't matter to me.
I wouldn't mind seeing rpg.net slammed more around here though, as there's a site I'd like to see hacked to oblivion.
Quote from: Spinachcat;413261Ron's battle was to make Narrative games and non-traditional RPG design into a significant niche within the RPG hobby. He did that. He won his battle.
He time-travelled to 1991 to ensure Rein-Hagen wrote
Vampire as a "story-telling game"?
Now the war is over should we begin to think about a series of military tribunals?
Quote from: Cylonophile;413532I wouldn't mind seeing rpg.net slammed more around here though, as there's a site I'd like to see hacked to oblivion.
Are you going to fire the first shot in this new war on a fresh seperate thead? ;)
I love me a good rant. :p
Quote from: Cylonophile;413532Now fights with rpg.net are OK with me, as I do know about and hate that cesspool of arrogant scum, but the forge really hold no interest for me. It could disappear tomorrow or go on forever, wither way wouldn't matter to me.
I wouldn't mind seeing rpg.net slammed more around here though, as there's a site I'd like to see hacked to oblivion.
You really don't get out much do you?
Quote from: PaladinCA;413672You really don't get out much do you?
Oh, we won't get an answer to that most important question will we?
Let's take a wild guess... 42?
Quote from: boulet;413682Oh, we won't get an answer to that most important question will we?
Let's take a wild guess... 42?
I just saw in another thread that he was banned. That is quite a rare event around these parts.
I'll refrain from any additional comments since Cylonophile won't be able to respond to it.
I think a number of the major Forgies have left over the last few years, and the place was mostly a ghost town. Ron was such a douche even indie publishers couldn't stand him. I know I made the mistake of reading Sorceror years ago, and his little GNS screed was stuck in the game, which was really annoying. And while the game had some neat ideas, it really needed more work.
Quote from: danbuter;413903I think a number of the major Forgies have left over the last few years, and the place was mostly a ghost town. Ron was such a douche even indie publishers couldn't stand him. I know I made the mistake of reading Sorceror years ago, and his little GNS screed was stuck in the game, which was really annoying. And while the game had some neat ideas, it really needed more work.
I totally agree with you, I had Sorcerer as well for a while, about 5 years ago now. I got all the books for cheap on Ebay in a job lot because I was curious about the hype. The game was lacking in key areas and the theory stuff just sounded vague, preachy and smug. I will say that the best of the bunch by far was Sorcerer and Sword which was pretty good in places.
I ended up getting rid of it all after I asked some straight questions in The Forge about the mechanics and Edwards acted like a fucking Zen Master, cryptic and all knowing, not answering my questions, trying to make me feel stupid because I "didn't get it" what a fucking complete prick!
Shortly after I sold the books on for a profit (yes I do feel bad about it!) as I realised what a load of crap all that GNS Forge crap was.
Quote from: PaladinCA;413699I just saw in another thread that he was banned. That is quite a rare event around these parts.
I'll refrain from any additional comments since Cylonophile won't be able to respond to it.
The poster you're talking to is DEAAAAAAAAAAAD!
(well, not YOU, but Boulet.)
Quote from: thedungeondelver;413945The poster you're talking to is DEAAAAAAAAAAAD!
(well, not YOU, but Boulet.)
Pundit had him capped?
That's harsh!
Quote from: EBM;413949Pundit had him capped?
That's harsh!
The devastating truth is that once banned from this site the Pundit is unable to afford even what small measure of protection from Death by Gnome that the rest of us enjoy.
Quote from: thedungeondelver;413945The poster you're talking to is DEAAAAAAAAAAAD!
(well, not YOU, but Boulet.)
"You're dead and you don't even know it yet" Fist of the North Star
I hope I can remain in my suspended dying state for a while, I could save money on food and stuff.
Quote from: Cole;413951The devastating truth is that once banned from this site the Pundit is unable to afford even what small measure of protection from Death by Gnome that the rest of us enjoy.
True, since I joined this forum attempts on my life have reduced dramatically. I'm hoping to get to 100+ posts and then hopefully they will stop altogether!
Quote from: EBM;413958True, since I joined this forum attempts on my life have reduced dramatically. I'm hoping to get to 100+ posts and then hopefully they will stop altogether!
An empty hope, but whatever gets a man through.
Quote from: boulet;413954"You're dead and you don't even know it yet" Fist of the North Star
I hope I can remain in my suspended dying state for a while, I could save money on food and stuff.
(http://karolinagames.com/horatio/images/9643609a87b9.jpg)
How many pairs of sunglasses does Horatio wear, really?!!
*steps away off camera*
I would just like to point out a few gross inaccuracies in this thread.
1. Anyone claiming Edwards, The Forge and "story games" of today have anything to do with White Wolf games or Vampire, obviously have no clue at all about The Forge. This includes you, Pundit, and mr. Kyle Aaron.
This either proves that
a) you don't actually know what you're criticizing and attacking some imaginary mythological monster, a straw man that you have constructed for yourself
or
b) you, Pundit, have actually won this war. A war of missinformation, propaganda and blatant lies.
2. This is further supported by your statement that Ron Edwards was
"claiming that "fun" was something achieved by minimizing any potential for the unexpected"
This is so completely untrue I cannot even begin to explain it. If you had taken one tiny peek at any of his writings and games, you would know this. So again, either you're delusionally attacking him and the Forge from some ideological standpoint or you're purposefully lying.
3. Someone claimed that Ron and Vincent had "one hit each". Ron was never about profit, but his games continue to sell at a reasonable rate. Vincent hadn't made a full blown game since Dogs (the games he made in between were just a couple dozen pages, just small games), until he made Apocalypse World. His new game, Apocalypse World has sold out many times over. Just so you know. He's still making money from Dogs as well.
You know those new hit games, right behind D&D and Pathfinder? Dresden Files, Smallville RPG and others? "Forge games" by your standards, all of them.
4. A person insinuated that Ron and "Vinny" were homosexuals and apparently found this funny. If you don't understand how utterly immature and adolescent this makes you sound, I can't help you in any way.
Return to your playground gentlemen, and keep on making sand castles.
Ah, a crusader and missionary, fresh from the front lines.
When are we going to stop throwing good, young men to their deaths in this senseless war!
Quote from: One Horse Town;414062Ah, a crusader and missionary, fresh from the front lines.
At least you can be pretty sure, that it's not Cylon under a new alias.
Quote from: two_fishes;414064When are we going to stop throwing good, young men to their deaths in this senseless war!
But Two Fishes, people like Teataine keep volunteering for the front lines - and getting it all wrong of course.
- Ed C.
Quote from: One Horse Town;414062Ah, a crusader and missionary, fresh from the front lines.
Shove the fuck over. I brought popcorn; some things are too good to miss.
Quote from: Levi Kornelsen;414071Shove the fuck over. I brought popcorn; some things are too good to miss.
Hypocrit!
I hope you feel dirty.
Quote from: One Horse Town;414073I hope you feel dirty.
Wrestling in the muck of "Forge is bad! Forge is good! Ron Edwards!" is awful, it's dumb, and I wish I'd never bothered.
But, man, Teataine vs. RPGsite? Some things, I just
have to know how they end.
Quote from: Levi Kornelsen;414078But, man, Teataine vs. RPGsite? Some things, I just have to know how they end.
Shrug. We've had far better than him come and go.
They generally seem to forget that they aren't protected here and start crying after a day or so.
Quote from: Levi Kornelsen;414078Wrestling in the muck of "Forge is bad! Forge is good! Ron Edwards!" is awful, it's dumb, and I wish I'd never bothered.
But, man, Teataine vs. RPGsite? Some things, I just have to know how they end.
Welcome turtle-avatar dude!
Levi, I've actually missed you posting on here.
Noticed you got that strange promotion over on the Purple.
Seriously good to see you again.
- Ed C.
Quote from: Levi Kornelsen;414078Wrestling in the muck of "Forge is bad! Forge is good! Ron Edwards!" is awful, it's dumb, and I wish I'd never bothered.
"Munich" by Steven Spielberg comes to mind...
if the forgers are so right - if Mike Mearles worships at the altar of GNS, if we're all brain damaged, if RPGs aren't meant to be "fun" - why do they care if we're pissing in the forge's shallow grave?
Quote from: Koltar;414093Seriously good to see you again.
And you.
Hm.
Looks like we may not get a show right away, though. Eh, I'll check back in a day or two.
Quote from: thedungeondelver;414107if the forgers are so right - if Mike Mearles worships at the altar of GNS, if we're all brain damaged, if RPGs aren't meant to be "fun" - why do they care if we're pissing in the forge's shallow grave?
The forgers are brain damaged too. :rolleyes:
Pot meets kettle.
Quote from: thedungeondelver;414107if the forgers are so right - if Mike Mearles worships at the altar of GNS, if we're all brain damaged, if RPGs aren't meant to be "fun" - why do they care if we're pissing in the forge's shallow grave?
Because we are contributing to make the world a worse place instead of helping them in their crusade to better it. A forger told me so.
Quote from: Levi Kornelsen;414108And you.
Hm.
Looks like we may not get a show right away, though. Eh, I'll check back in a day or two.
People here run games...;)
Quote from: Kyle Aaron;413563He time-travelled to 1991 to ensure Rein-Hagen wrote Vampire as a "story-telling game"?
Shove a shrimp up your barbie! :)
You know full well that WW makes traditional RPGs and the Forge focussed near-exclusively on "narrative play" and "player empowerment". Every WW game has the GM in the same control position as D&D or any other trad RPG.
Did WW try to position themselves differently in the marketplace? Sure. Tapping into the Anne Rice / Goth sub-culture and expanding their IP into LARP play was just smart business.
Quote from: DKChannelBoredom;414066At least you can be pretty sure, that it's not Cylon under a new alias.
And like most Cylons, he'll be unmasked after a few episodes...but return over and over again.
Quote from: Teataine;414060you don't actually know what you're criticizing and attacking some imaginary mythological monster, a straw man that you have constructed for yourself
Uhh....welcome to theRPGsite?
Maybe you are used to discussions with facts and fact-based opinions, but here at theRPGsite we have our own special web-based kabuki where you are judged by the quality of your imaginary mythological monster battles.
Quote from: Teataine;414060This is so completely untrue I cannot even begin to explain it.
Again, welcome to theRPGsite.
Quote from: Teataine;414060His new game, Apocalypse World has sold out many times over. Just so you know.
Oooh, the bullshit kabuki dance!!!
SOLD OUT MANY TIMES OVER...is he doing 10 book print runs?
Link us to proof that he has re-ordered 1000+ book print runs OR accept that your truthiness is no more factual than RPGPundit.
Quote from: Levi Kornelsen;414078But, man, Teataine vs. RPGsite? Some things, I just have to know how they end.
Is there something we should know about the new guy?
Quote from: Teataine;4140601. Anyone claiming Edwards, The Forge and "story games" of today have anything to do with White Wolf games or Vampire, obviously have no clue at all about The Forge. This includes you, Pundit, and mr. Kyle Aaron.
Critical failure on your Reading Comprehension roll. I suggest that next time you read threads on this forum, you close the other tabs with porn, they obviously distract you too much.
I didn't make that claim, Ron Edwards and his supporters did. Forgers claim that Uncle Ronny et al invented "story-gaming". But we had a whole game system called the "Storytelling System" in 1991. Edwards and his fanboys claiming to have invented "storygames" would be like the
Tunnels and Trolls writer claiming to have invented dungeon crawls.
QuoteSomeone claimed that Ron and Vincent had "one hit each".
I wouldn't claim they had
any "hits". A "hit" is a product which does some combination of making the person widely-known in their particular industry by general consumers, and which makes the person rich. Calling
Sorcerer a "hit" is like saying that when the pub band fills up the local pub with its friends, family, and a couple of hundred friends of friends it's a "hit". It's not a "hit", it's a local success. Which is nice, but let's not get carried away with ourselves.
QuoteRon was never about profit
That's what people say when they're commercial failures.
I mean, the guy's so hard up for cash he has to study bat penises for a living. No wonder his games all have a dark and depressing worldview.
Quote from: Benoist;414146Is there something we should know about the new guy?
He is the absolute worst kind of forgite true believer. Hes made posts on RPG net trying to bring the word of the forge to the masses and is doing a diploma in roleplaying theory based on the teachings of the holy ron.
Seriously, the kind of dude who give the forge a bad name.
Quote from: Spinachcat;414145Maybe you are used to discussions with facts and fact-based opinions, but here at theRPGsite we have our own special web-based kabuki where you are judged by the quality of your imaginary mythological monster battles.
"Imaginary mythological monster battles" are a central feature of one of my primary non-web-based hobbies so it makes a certain sense.
Quote from: Erik Boielle;414149He is the absolute worst kind of forgite true believer. Hes made posts on RPG net trying to bring the word of the forge to the masses and is doing a diploma in roleplaying theory based on the teachings of the holy ron.
Seriously, the kind of dude who give the forge a bad name.
Erik, you magnificent bastard! Please hang around.
Yeah, there's a few of those around. Sadly, they don't have a home anymore.
Quote from: Erik Boielle;414149He is the absolute worst kind of forgite true believer. Hes made posts on RPG net trying to bring the word of the forge to the masses and is doing a diploma in roleplaying theory based on the teachings of the holy ron.
Seriously, the kind of dude who give the forge a bad name.
Holy Fuck. A true student of the Word. This is going to be fun!
I wonder what it was that Teataine had to edit out of his first post a scant three minutes after he posted it?
Will he make it to post number 2?
Will that be edited as well?
Did Apocalypse World sell out again today?
So many questions...
I wait with bated breath.
My first comic book sold out.
We're a private company, so I don't have to announce print runs...but I can say that demand exceeded stock.
This is cool...I recommend it to anyone looking for some spin.
Quote from: Tommy Brownell;414165My first comic book sold out.
We're a private company, so I don't have to announce print runs...but I can say that demand exceeded stock.
This is cool...I recommend it to anyone looking for some spin.
But did it sell out to your friends, family, and sycophants?
Quote from: One Horse Town;414167But did it sell out to your friends, family, and sycophants?
Obviously, there were some friends and family sales, but we did have surprisingly strong local sales at the Tulsa, OK area stores.
We're not important enough for sycophants yet, unfortunately. Maybe someday.
I will freely admit that it has been a bust outside of Oklahoma.
Quote from: EBM;414159I wait with bated breath.
Maybe he just chickened out? :(
Precisely all I know about Apocalypse World (gleaned from various posts on Story Games, which I read for the articles*) is that it has character types with cool names like Gunlugger or Battlebabe or Angel (which I think is some kind of doctor).
That these sound intriguing enough to make me interested in it help confirm my theory that one nifty name is worth more than many pages of fluff.
*And to keep my bloodpressure high and maintain the Swinewatch
Quote from: Erik Boielle;414171Precisely all I know about Apocalypse World (gleaned from various posts on Story Games, which I read for the articles*) is that it has character types with cool names like Gunlugger or Battlebabe or Angel (which I think is some kind of doctor).
That these sound intriguing enough to make me interested in it help confirm my theory that one nifty name is worth more than many pages of fluff.
*And to keep my bloodpressure high and maintain the Swinewatch
Be sure to fuck the Battlebabe for a cool mechanical advantage!
Quote from: Erik Boielle;414149He is the absolute worst kind of forgite true believer.
Oh, then he'll fit in fine here!
We got all sorts of absolute worst kind of true believers!
Quote from: One Horse Town;414172Be sure to fuck the Battlebabe for a cool mechanical advantage!
Perhaps one has gotten his head stuck too far down the RPG rabbit hole when the objective is a bonus on a die roll and sex is the mere means to that end. :)
Quote from: One Horse Town;414172Be sure to fuck the Battlebabe for a cool mechanical advantage!
Yes, preferably anally (because it's
edgy and
kewl) to get Hx+5! :rolleyes: FFS!
Quote from: Benoist;414170Maybe he just chickened out? :(
I do feel like a spectator in the Collosium waiting for the next "act".
Expectant, a little excited at the carnage to come and kind of sorry for him!
I don't hate the Forge, but I do think its theory is bad, and pernicious by actively misleading aspiring game designers about what they can do to make their games better. The emphasis on "coherence" as a virtue is empirically untrue when we look at the kinds of RPGs that are most popular, and is theoretically dubious when analysed.
That said, I wish the Forge would have reformed rather than vanished. It needed to stop producing so many crappy high-concept micro-games with limited replayability and limited long-term potential, and instead focus on spreading useful game design advice amongst its members.
For example, the Riddle of Steel may be very interesting mechanically with its spiritual attributes, but it is nearly unplayable in practice since it relies heavily on tables which require fairly extensive cross-referencing by multiple players near-simultaneously. Without multiple copies of the book, or player-created cheat-sheets, or something like that, the game is incredibly difficult to play and the "fast" combat promised slows to a halt.
Burning Empires, which is a game I like a lot, would have been an even better game if it was more generic. As it is, you've got to work a fair bit to strip it away from the Vaylen vs. Humans angle on a mechanical level, even though the setting is never once clearly and coherently explained in the corebook.
And so on, and so forth.
Quote from: Teataine;414060I would just like to point out a few gross inaccuracies in this thread.
1. Anyone claiming Edwards, The Forge and "story games" of today have anything to do with White Wolf games or Vampire, obviously have no clue at all about The Forge. This includes you, Pundit, and mr. Kyle Aaron.
I never claimed anything of the sort, except in the sense that the Forge Swine had a serious hate-on for WW-Swine, as they were trying to be the new "elite". A significant amount of Edwards' effort was to try to de-legitimize the hipster claims of the WW-Swine so he could promote his own hipster claims.
Quote3. Someone claimed that Ron and Vincent had "one hit each".
Well, that definitely wasn't me. Neither of them had anything remotely resembling a commercial hit. I did say that Edwards had a sole game that was even popular among Forge Swine.
QuoteYou know those new hit games, right behind D&D and Pathfinder? Dresden Files, Smallville RPG and others? "Forge games" by your standards, all of them.
Neither of those are hits, though I see how you might be confused, since they are both RPG.net darlings. But then, you can sell zero copies of a game and still be an rpg.net darling, since most of the people who will praise and talk about a popular game on rpg.net have never actually played or even read it.
Quote4. A person insinuated that Ron and "Vinny" were homosexuals and apparently found this funny. If you don't understand how utterly immature and adolescent this makes you sound, I can't help you in any way.
I have no idea who said that, or indeed if anyone did. But I certainly didn't. I've blogged previously about Vince Baker's degenerate sex life and how he stole another man's wife in a weird, sexually controlling foursome (http://rpgpundit.xanga.com/715802390/item/). Definitely creepy, but not exactly gay.
As for Ron, I have no idea what his sexuality is. I just know the man has an extreme fondness for rodent genitals, but that's apparently "professional".
RPGPundit
Quote from: Levi Kornelsen;414078Wrestling in the muck of "Forge is bad! Forge is good! Ron Edwards!" is awful, it's dumb, and I wish I'd never bothered.
But, man, Teataine vs. RPGsite? Some things, I just have to know how they end.
Quite the irony, after you censored all mention of therpgsite on the thread about the Forge's defeat over on rpg.net, and then closed that thread.
Nice to know I'm still scary to the modclique.
RPGPundit
Quote from: Pseudoephedrine;414180I don't hate the Forge, but I do think its theory is bad, and pernicious by actively misleading aspiring game designers about what they can do to make their games better. The emphasis on "coherence" as a virtue is empirically untrue when we look at the kinds of RPGs that are most popular, and is theoretically dubious when analysed.
That said, I wish the Forge would have reformed rather than vanished. It needed to stop producing so many crappy high-concept micro-games with limited replayability and limited long-term potential, and instead focus on spreading useful game design advice amongst its members.
For example, the Riddle of Steel may be very interesting mechanically with its spiritual attributes, but it is nearly unplayable in practice since it relies heavily on tables which require fairly extensive cross-referencing by multiple players near-simultaneously. Without multiple copies of the book, or player-created cheat-sheets, or something like that, the game is incredibly difficult to play and the "fast" combat promised slows to a halt.
Burning Empires, which is a game I like a lot, would have been an even better game if it was more generic. As it is, you've got to work a fair bit to strip it away from the Vaylen vs. Humans angle on a mechanical level, even though the setting is never once clearly and coherently explained in the corebook.
And so on, and so forth.
No reformation was possible. The place had to be burned down to the ground and the earth salted so nothing would ever grow there again. Otherwise the taint would merely be passed on to the new generation.
RPGPundit
Burning Empires is to fucking complicated. There are about a dozen interlocking systems you would need to understand to play the game properly, and there can't be more than a tiny handful of people who know it well enough to play the game competitively like it suggests.
I wonder if ANYONE has actually completed a full game through all the phases.
But I like that there is a focus on games having to provide a unique play experience to be called a game.
To an extent this is just moving what used to be scenario design to the forefront - I can think of 'scenarios' for battletech that involve trying to get the players to run a concentration camp (accidentally), or the Lone Wolf scenario for 2300ad ( http://web.me.com/pentapod2300/mag/lonewolf.htm ) which has the players take on the roles of ship captains from rival navies hunting a kafer commerce raider and competing for the glory. These could easily be repackaged as full games in and of themselves and that is no bad thing.
But while I loved Transhuman Space, it just isn't a game. There is no gameplay there. They actually went out of their way to make creating a game in the setting difficult. Fuck that noise. I want a game.
Quote from: EBM;414176Yes, preferably anally (because it's edgy and kewl) to get Hx+5! :rolleyes: FFS!
So you're telling me my Gunlugger gets more Hx if I assfuck the Battlebabe then if I just get a blowjob? What about a blowjob after I assfuck her, is that worth combo points?
This thing is FATAL: Forge style
Quote from: RPGPundit;414184Quite the irony, after you censored all mention of therpgsite on the thread about the Forge's defeat over on rpg.net, and then closed that thread.
Petty, backbiting tribalism and spite are poisonous to large and relatively diverse communities, and thus don't belong on RPGnet,
where I moderate.
That don't mean I don't like that bitter-almond taste. Is that ironic? Yeah, probably.
But I came here to see a thing, and that thing isn't going to happen; I chatted with the fellow in question elsewhere. So, maybe in a few months, I'll swing by again for another dose. I'm sure you'll still have it on tap.
Quote from: CRKrueger;414192So you're telling me my Gunlugger gets more Hx if I assfuck the Battlebabe then if I just get a blowjob? What about a blowjob after I assfuck her, is that worth combo points?
This thing is FATAL: Forge style
I would imagine ass to mouth for the win is probably right... You would describe the scene in great detail as your fellow Forgeites ("Forgeries") around the "gaming" table would lick their dry lips, dark eyes brightly shining, clapping their pale clammy hands together with glee and nodding sagely to one another, bound together in the certainty of how significant they really are.
Quote from: RPGPundit;414183I have no idea who said that, or indeed if anyone did. But I certainly didn't. I've blogged previously about Vince Baker's degenerate sex life and how he stole another man's wife in a weird, sexually controlling foursome (http://rpgpundit.xanga.com/715802390/item/). Definitely creepy, but not exactly gay.
As for Ron, I have no idea what his sexuality is. I just know the man has an extreme fondness for rodent genitals, but that's apparently "professional".
RPGPundit
I think that it's a reference to one of my posts and an indication of critical reading comprehension fail and the blinkered brainwashed kind of reflex defence mechanism that only true cult leaders can engender.
I said something along the lines of - "I think winter phase is quite apt, given Ron and Vinny's proclivities. It's the time in Pendragon when if you're lucky, you'll cop a feel of your girlfriend's boobies."
It was, of course, a reference to their obssession with getting dodgy sex and/or rape coded into the game mechanics a la "system matters" and not a comment on their sexuality - your link pretty much validates the opinion, though.
I feel I should point out that from just those three terms we have already got a little RPG going, which I get the impression is kind of the point. :-)
And Levi seems to really ... enjoy being a moderator at RPG.net.
Now I'm not saying he has gone power mad and is already drilling the thought police to remake the place in his own image but...
Quote from: Erik Boielle;414208And Levi seems to really ... enjoy being a moderator at RPG.net.
Now I'm not saying he has gone power mad and is already drilling the thought police to remake the place in his own image but...
He's the guy they think is the reasonable, public face of the moderation - same as the first time.
He gets rolled out when there's a shit-storm, and well, it's Levi! All is cool.
Quote from: Levi Kornelsen;414200Petty, backbiting tribalism and spite are poisonous to large and relatively diverse communities, and thus don't belong on RPGnet, where I moderate.
That don't mean I don't like that bitter-almond taste. Is that ironic? Yeah, probably.
But I came here to see a thing, and that thing isn't going to happen; I chatted with the fellow in question elsewhere. So, maybe in a few months, I'll swing by again for another dose. I'm sure you'll still have it on tap.
Don't let the door hit you on the way out.
Quote from: Levi Kornelsen;414200I chatted with the fellow in question elsewhere.
Indeed.
Weird. Storygames hasn't been mentioned once here and yet all the vitriol you decry this site for seems to be oozing from the equivalent thread over there.
Quote from: One Horse Town;414219Weird. Storygames hasn't been mentioned once here and yet all the vitriol you decry this site for seems to be oozing from the equivalent thread over there.
Don't mind Levi, he wants to ban people for "provocation" (http://forum.rpg.net/showthread.php?t=545621) on rpg.net. This on a forum where they had to make a specific rule (http://forum.rpg.net/showthread.php?t=535268) against making threads announcing you were going to masturbate to someone's avatar.
You have been permabanned.
Reason: being kind of annoying in a hard-to-explain way. Basically we just don't like you.
All this goes way, way back to the "emotionally safe environment" petition on rpg.net's Trouble Tickets... I dunno, six or seven years ago, thread's been purged since then. Anyway, basically a bunch of lefty types got all upset that someone would say something racist, sexist or homophobic, and it might take as much as thirty minutes for them to be permabanned (apparently mods have lives outside being moderators, who'd've thought it), and if in those thirty minutes someone would say, "you bigoted cunt!", well
that person would get banned, too - for a while. They said that rpg.net ought to be an "emotionally safe environment" - in other words, they wanted the bigots to be instantly silenced, but for them to be able to say what they wanted. Freedom of speech, but not for
you cunts! You provoked us!
But who defines provocation? I mean, obviously, "all niggers must hang!" is stirring shit, okay, ban that guy. But posting that people are "shifting the goalposts" in a discussion is provocation? Meanwhile in Tangency some guy in a squirrel suit posts a how-to on anal sex, and that's alright. It gets absurd. But that's rpg.net moderation for you.
The more things change, the more they stay the same, and all that.
Being a whiny, backstabbing, hypocritical, passive-aggressive douchebag is rewarded on RPGnet.
Speaking your mind is bad. You should have ulterior motives, hide them, make Nth degree allusions to mock your opponents, and not hesitate to suck mod dick when you have to. Unless of course you're bashing a guy for something the moderation agrees with. Or you're special, like Luke Crane.
Quote from: Levi Kornelsen;414200Petty, backbiting tribalism and spite are poisonous to large and relatively diverse communities, and thus don't belong on RPGnet, where I moderate.
Ahahahaha ahaha ahahaha ha. Ha. Like, Tangency? Or
pretty much all the rest? :rolleyes:
I assumed he was just posting comedically. I mean, he's Canadian, not American, so he understands irony.
Rpg.net tangency is indeed a festering shithole. You'd better be one with the groupmind if you post there.
Quote from: Kyle Aaron;414279I assumed he was just posting comedically. I mean, he's Canadian, not American, so he understands irony.
He may also be handing out comedy bans for all I know. That would be quite subversive.
Quote from: Melan;414319He may also be handing out comedy bans for all I know. That would be quite subversive.
You mean like on 4chan? "NEXT POSTER WHO POSTS A MESSAGE WITH AN ID THAT ENDS IN 0 IS BANNED"
also:
(http://batmancomic.info/gen/20101105065555_4cd40cebda4e2.jpg)
Quote from: Levi Kornelsen;414200Petty, backbiting tribalism and spite are poisonous to large and relatively diverse communities, and thus don't belong on RPGnet, where I moderate.
That don't mean I don't like that bitter-almond taste. Is that ironic? Yeah, probably.
But I came here to see a thing, and that thing isn't going to happen; I chatted with the fellow in question elsewhere. So, maybe in a few months, I'll swing by again for another dose. I'm sure you'll still have it on tap.
You, your site, your moderators, your attitude is a joke. You lot need to get a fucking life. You represent the worst aspects of gaming. Your hypocrisy is staggering and your facile trolling laughable. Piss off somewhere else, perhaps back to
where you moderate you dopey cunt.
I agree completely with GW. RPGNet is a fucking joke, and makes gamers look like a bunch of freaks. I couldn't imagine just being curious about rpg's, finding that site and joining, and then looking at Tangency.
Quote from: danbuter;414332I agree completely with GW. RPGNet is a fucking joke, and makes gamers look like a bunch of freaks. I couldn't imagine just being curious about rpg's, finding that site and joining, and then looking at Tangency.
Oh it's not just tangency.
Give me a robust discussion any day, rather than the pussyfooting enforced by the mind games of a small geek clique that happens to run a popular website. Fucking joke, the lot of them.
Somebody compared RPGnet to 4chan light at some point. That's actually quite accurate, thinking about the "weirdness" factor some of its discussions exude in abundance.
Now, now - RPG.net is a perfectly inclusive and free-thinking website for LGBTQGNSPETALIBDEMAFLCIOUNHRCCPUSAOMGWTFBBQ types. We should applaud them in their inclusivity, and probably give them a cookie, so long as it is the gluten, dairy, and egg-free variety.
The rest of us, GTFO, or they will GUTFO for us.
I do find it hilarious that right now on their "trouble tickets" forum, Levi is running a 22-page discussion about how to deal with people who abuse the moderation system on RPG.net, by provoking others and being passive aggressive so that the other guy blows up and gets banned. Everyone on the thread seems to acknowledge this is a real phenomenon, and that there are "masters of the art" who routinely make it a point of passive-aggressively destroying some other poster. The really funny thing is how they're all pulling their hair out about how to do this, and the general opinion is "more rules!" "more warnings!", "more bans!".
None of them fucking get it that the toxic atmosphere there is BECAUSE of the rules, warnings and bans. The problem is because there are certain assholes who are allowed to get away with it because they play the social rules of the clique, and others who are banned because either their position or their way of expressing their position is not what the "in crowd" have deemed the hip way to act.
You want to create a non-toxic environment, where people won't engage in this passive aggressive shit and create a repressive environment full of informants, agents provocateurs, and members constantly terrified of watching their speech to avoid the ban? Here's a crazy idea: Allow free speech. Suddenly the passive-aggresive shitfuckers are toothless.
Yes, its not as hip and it makes it harder for you all to pretend that you're sensitive metrosexual progressives. But its honest, and real, and it continues to work over here despite YEARS of the RPG.net mods trying to claim that this kind of setup would never work.
RPGPundit
Quote from: RPGPundit;414350None of them fucking get it that the toxic atmosphere there is BECAUSE of the rules, warnings and bans. The problem is because there are certain assholes who are allowed to get away with it because they play the social rules of the clique, and others who are banned because either their position or their way of expressing their position is not what the "in crowd" have deemed the hip way to act.
You want to create a non-toxic environment, where people won't engage in this passive aggressive shit and create a repressive environment full of informants, agents provocateurs, and members constantly terrified of watching their speech to avoid the ban? Here's a crazy idea: Allow free speech. Suddenly the passive-aggresive shitfuckers are toothless.
Quoted for motherfucking Truth.
If I wasn't already banned, I'd post Pundit's post in the Trouble Tickets. And then I'd get permabanned for referencing a banned poster. Even though he makes a ton of sense.
Levi, I didn't know you re-joined them. Alas, what a weak show.
Bannings? Really?
Quote from: Settembrini;414378Levi, I didn't know you re-joined them. Alas, what a weak show.
Bannings? Really?
Sett,
He never left 'them'.
...and now he is a moderator turtle on the Big Purple.
- Ed C.
I love how moderation is treated like Serious Business there.
"We've taken this thread backstage for review."
"This was not a [capital-W!]Warning, it was merely a [capital-A!]Admonishment."
Fuck that noise. It's a fucking message board. About pretending to be an elf.
Rather reminds me of The State from the Larry Niven trilogy (The Integral Trees, The Smoke Ring and A World out of Time). How bad does your moderation have to be to make enWorld look reasonable?
Did WalkerP post it? Seriously?
Hilarious.
RPGPundit
Quote from: RPGPundit;414396Did WalkerP post it? Seriously?
Hilarious.
RPGPundit
Aarrgghh!! I go over there to look - and Nina has already modified WalkerP's post and red-texted all over the place. Just because Pundit is a banned user. Hell, up in the RPG section Zorg recommended someone go to another forum
(BAnhammer) to get
my view on a TREK Gaming idea - and I'm a banned user on RPG Net.
- Ed C.
Quote from: Settembrini;414378Levi, I didn't know you re-joined them. Alas, what a weak show.
Bannings? Really?
Hopefully he'll have the stones to respond to what's been said here. Though he's probably filed a post in 'Trouble Tickets' (there's a waste of time if ever there was one) to get us all banned.
What's worse about that forum is the palpable air of not wanting to upset the Great Moderator Dragons; 'not wishing to stir, my lord but couldst thou deign to favour me with an explanation as to why so and so has been banned'...NO! ROAR! BAN!
ffs
Quote from: Koltar;414419Aarrgghh!! I go over there to look - and Nina has already modified WalkerP's post and red-texted all over the place. Just because Pundit is a banned user. Hell, up in the RPG section Zorg recommended someone go to another forum (BAnhammer) to get my view on a TREK Gaming idea - and I'm a banned user on RPG Net.
- Ed C.
She's another of the
fevered egos; ambitious little mare too.
Quote from: Ghost Whistler;414424She's another of the fevered egos; ambitious little mare too.
I've never forgiven her for shooting Jack Bauers wife. Bitch!
Pathetic. I seriously considered posting the only real solution to their bullshit over on that TT as well, but I'd have to register, and then deal with having anything I post deleted and replaced most likely with Sorry Ass Nina's "see no evil" bullshit. It just isn't worth it. They don't want a better forum. They want what ever it is that you call that wankfest. Anything I write would be pointless and a waste of my effort, and frankly, they're not worth it. I'm happy reading this site and I'll be content with that.
Since when was this a thread about RPGnet? Weren't we happy enough ripping the Forge a new one?
Quote from: One Horse Town;414438Since when was this a thread about RPGnet? Weren't we happy enough ripping the Forge a new one?
What? We've alway's been at war with Eastasia!
Yeah, I seem to remember more than a few banned posters who've had their positions presented in one way or another.
But its not even really about that. I wish I could say it was just that they're scared of me by my lonesome, but the real thing that scares them is theRPGsite, and what it represents, particularly as a weapon to those who might want to argue for reducing moderation on rpg.net. Its not that they think that they'll instantly lose thousands of users to us or something, its that the very thing we represent weakens their position with regard to moderation.
So they do absolutely everything humanly possible to avoid any link to theRPGsite becoming known on rpg.net, ESPECIALLY within the context of our free speech policy.
RPGPundit
I reposted the Pundit's post to my LJ page, which feeds to Twitter and Facebook, where far more people who actually care will actually read it (and can't do shit about censoring it).
Well, very good, thank you!
RPGPundit
Quote from: One Horse Town;414438Since when was this a thread about RPGnet? Weren't we happy enough ripping the Forge a new one?
We might have been but then we had RPG.netters coming here to "see the show". Idiots might have their own show if they weren't a buncha pussies.
Out of passing interest, how many of you cunts are just resentful because they banned you?
I ask because I care.
Open's all right, the main problem with it is a massive overemphasis on consumerism rather than anything mentioned here.
Tangency would be better closed. I also find it extraordinary that they have Porn Monday and regular porn discussions given the general tenor of the site. I never wanted moderation, but if it's there Porn Monday is exactly the sort of thing I'd moderate into oblivion.
It's an rpg site, why does it need a regular porn discussion thread?
Oh, and for the record, I'm a big fan of Levi. I disagree with him about this place, but people can disagree. I still have huge time for him.
Quote from: D-503;414489Out of passing interest, how many of you cunts are just resentful because they banned you?
I ask because I care.
I haven't been banned, but I have scarcely ever posted there - I don't actually remember my username at this point. I read the odd thread from time to time but I don't find the place appealing. It reminds me for reasons I can't put my finger on of the feeling I've gotten sometimes of walking into a gaming store, everyone stares as if I ought not be there or am going to steal something, I get creeped out and leave.
Occasionally someone will link a thread that'll turn out to be interesting, but if i just go looking, I usually don't see anything to make me want to spend much time there.
This is just speaking for myself, of course.
Quote from: D-503;414489Oh, and for the record, I'm a big fan of Levi.
I disagree with Levi on a lot of stuff, sometimes vehemently, but I respect him (and said as much in my suicide-by-mod on RPGnet). I suspect he's a bit of an hypocrite sometimes, but I'm not sure he does that out of sheer malice rather than a concern to have exchanges instead of fistfights. I tell things like they are to his face. He does what he wants with it from there.
Quote from: Cole;414492I haven't been banned, but I have scarcely ever posted there - I don't actually remember my username at this point. I read the odd thread from time to time but I don't find the place appealing. It reminds me for reasons I can't put my finger on of the feeling I've gotten sometimes of walking into a gaming store, everyone stares as if I ought not be there or am going to steal something, I get creeped out and leave.
Occasionally someone will link a thread that'll turn out to be interesting, but if i just go looking, I usually don't see anything to make me want to spend much time there.
This is just speaking for myself, of course.
To be honest, it's therpgsite, I feel left out if I don't call people cunts occasionally.
I get irritated by every forum. Story Games pisses me off with its excessive niceness. Therpgsite with the bloody negativity. Rpg.net with the constant fucking consumerism.
On the other hand, I love the positivity and sheer pleasantness of Story Games, the free speech and freewheeling nature of therpgsite and the sheer depth of knowledge of everything out there one finds on rpg.net.
When the irritation outweighs the love, I stop posting in a place for a while. Story Games actually hardly ever irritates me, but I have very little to contribute there so I don't post there much anyway.
Honestly, I just resent Tangency. What a fucking circle jerk. If Tangency was shut down, RPGNet would be a decent site. But, since it's open, it bleeds over into everything else.
Quote from: Benoist;414493I disagree with Levi on a lot of stuff, sometimes vehemently, but I respect him (and said as much in my suicide-by-mod on RPGnet). I suspect he's a bit of an hypocrite sometimes, but I'm not sure he does that out of sheer malice rather than a concern to have exchanges instead of fistfights. I tell things like they are to his face. He does what he wants with it from there.
We all are sometimes. I think Levi tries to be a good guy and I respect that.
Quote from: D-503;414498To be honest, it's therpgsite, I feel left out if I don't call people cunts occasionally.
I feel you, it's just a slow afternoon and it's just my response to the RPGnet question.
Quote from: Ghost Whistler;414422Hopefully he'll have the stones to respond to what's been said here.
I'm not sure what you want me to respond to, precisely.
I mean, judgments have been thrown at me. Some are accurate to one degree or another, some aren't. The accurate ones sting a bit, the others don't. And, well, I don't act the same way in church as I do in a nightclub, I don't think the codes of behavior expected in different places somehow
ought to be identical. I also think that the culture here is mainly one of being the loudest asshole in the room, which makes it a
great site for discussions of Forge-Love vs. Forge-Hate, since "loudest asshole" is basically what those discussions always end up being anyway. Call that whatever you want.
Judgments have been thrown at the site where I volunteer, and the way it manages it's shit. Cool. Those throwing said insults aren't posters there, for the most part, so there's no response really needed - If you care about the environment there, contact me there. If you're not a poster there, your opinions on how we manage our shit are
yours; enjoy them, revel in them, carry on with them. But they aren't my problem.
Quote from: D-503;414500We all are sometimes. I think Levi tries to be a good guy and I respect that.
Thanks, man. But, do know- I don't need a defender.
Quote from: Levi Kornelsen;414525Thanks, man. But, do know- I don't need a defender.
I know that Levi. The point is that I don't want to stand by and not comment when I disagree with what's being said about someone. That diminishes me.
Odd as it may sound, it's not about you, it's about me.
Edit: On that particular post I was just continuing the conversation. To be honest, I thought you'd left the thread. We were just talking about you while you were out of the room.
Quote from: One Horse Town;414438Since when was this a thread about RPGnet? Weren't we happy enough ripping the Forge a new one?
Hey, I hate rpgnet, but I don't dislike it more than any other shitty forum. When Prodigy shutdown 12 years ago, I gave up on forums completely, until I found this beautiful site.
Personally, I don't have any fucking interest, at all, in going to a site with moderators that become visible for anything other than harassment or hacking. That's it. I cant imagine spending time on rpgnet; it feels like an elementary school class with fearful teachers due to an overactive pta. Really, it is just run by pussies trying to climb back into that sort of environment.
Quote from: Levi Kornelsen;414525Thanks, man. But, do know- I don't need a defender.
I actually wasn't attacking you.
Quote from: Levi Kornelsen;414525And, well, I don't act the same way in church as I do in a nightclub, I don't think the codes of behavior expected in different places somehow ought to be identical.
RPGnet and the RPG Site are both gaming message boards, so your comparison somewhat fails by my reckoning.
Quote from: Levi Kornelsen;414525I also think that the culture here is mainly one of being the loudest asshole in the room, which makes it a great site for discussions of Forge-Love vs. Forge-Hate, since "loudest asshole" is basically what those discussions always end up being anyway. Call that whatever you want.
A steaming pile of bullshit.
Quote from: Benoist;414542A steaming pile of bullshit.
I think he's at least partly right on both counts, actually.
When in Rome and all that.
It's of course ignoring the many threads here that don't collect the flies, rubber-neckers and morgue attendants from other sites - because it's the arsehole threads that collect arseholes from those other sites. Oh, sure, they're here to right wrongs, restore the balance, use the Force etc, but pleasant folk don't tend to jump in feet first at sites they wouldn't normally frequent to 'right wrongs'. that's the crusader mentality. It's like Pundit going over to storygames and telling them they know nothing about sandbox games, getting huffy, throwing insults and generally carrying on. It would be like me going to Vincent Baker's blog and telling him he's a sick fuck. That is crusading and trying to force your agenda on others.
We both have places we can be as opinionated as we like - even be as uninformed as we like, but as soon as you cross the line and start bringing that shit to somewhere diametrically oposed to your viewpoint, you're an evangeliser and arsehole.
It's the nature of the beast. Keep your head below the parapet and the arseholes keep quiet. Pop that head up and say something contentious (IE arguably be an arsehole yourself) and others come calling.
Edit: None of this is aimed at Levi BTW, just folk like Teataine and his ilk who always seem to turn up at regular intervals.
Quote from: Benoist;414542RPGnet and the RPG Site are both gaming message boards, so your comparison somewhat fails by my reckoning.
*Shrug*
You think there's some imperative that they
ought to have the same culture?
Because I can see benefits in variety, and nothing at all on the side of identical-ness to set against that.
It is a wonder that anybody still falls for the cute-turtle Levi trick.
Man, Levi, a mod at RPG.Net? With bannings?
Quick tell me, what does a banning that needs to be then discussed for 23 pages accomplish?
I tell you what: drama around the person of the mods.
They NEED bannings. Some, to feel powerful, Nina could be a candidate.
Others, like Levi, to be in the center of attention and showing off the awesomely considerate and fair way he uses his power that he supposedly does not enjoy, but clings to like a fiend. And discusses it over and over. And over.
So, if I follow my own reasoning...Levi LOVES that people talk about him. Damn! I fell for his trap!
Enough of this!
Quote from: Levi Kornelsen;414525I'm not sure what you want me to respond to, precisely.
If you could make a yelp when the rotten cabbages hit you that would be great.
Quote from: Levi Kornelsen;414552*Shrug*
You think there's some imperative that they ought to have the same culture?
Not at all. There are however different qualities to different cultures, and I vastly prefer an environment where people can speak their minds, with them working things out, or not, at their own pace, rather than feel like I have some kid, poser douchebag or whoever tell me what to do in every single conversation I choose to take part in.
What I really do not appreciate in RPGnet's culture is that it fosters a sense of common wisdom and political correctness which are basically impossible to challenge, either because some asshole will get upset about it and resort to back-handed tactics to get the discussion to crash and some of its participants baited and banned, or because it challenges some idea the mods just do not want to see discussed on the boards.
In other words, I value free speech in all its fucked up glory. I like to talk about whatever I want, however I want. I'm an adult, and I don't need people to tell me what to think, how to think, or whether what I think is "appropriate" (to what? To whom?) or not.
RPGnet's culture is shit. Period.
Quote from: Levi Kornelsen;414552Because I can see benefits in variety, and nothing at all on the side of identical-ness to set against that.
RPGnet kills differing opinions, kills freedom of speech. Kills variety.
Quote from: Levi Kornelsen;414552*Shrug*
You think there's some imperative that they ought to have the same culture?
Because I can see benefits in variety, and nothing at all on the side of identical-ness to set against that.
No, there isn't any imperative of the sort. And in fact, its obviously to theRPGsite's benefit that RPG.net NOT have the same culture, otherwise theRPGsite would become kind of redundant. But as it stands, RPG.net's culture is apalling and theRPGsite becomes the most important RPG-discussion site on the internet on account of that, because we're the biggest one that is around for general RPG-talk where we are: A) still actually about RPGs and B) not concerned about having an "emotionally safe environment" where you can't talk about pole-arms without someone accusing you of being a sexist tool of the patriarchy or refer to a hypothetical character as "he or she" without having the Transgender-pack accuse of you of being oppressively bigoted against hermaphrodites (and where if they did, you could safely tell them to go fuck themselves).
What I really find amusing, however, is that RPG.net seems to recognize its own weakness. If it believed, if it really honestly believed that people would generally be happier with a high-moderation speech-repressive environment like their own when presented with the honest and equal choice, they wouldn't be going out of their way to try to: A) censor all links and connections to theRPGsite and B) having hte modclique going out of their way to slander and make up outright lies about the environment here in the hopes that it will discourage regular roleplayers from even bothering to check the place out.
But they do both, all the time.
So that can only tell me they're scared. Shit, if they weren't, if they honestly believed that they'd fare well in a straightforward presentation of opposing schools of thought, then we'd be the answer to their prayers: they could put up a link saying "if you want a place to talk RPGs where you aren't restrained in your speech, go to theRPGsite" (we could also, I suppose, put up one saying "If you want an emotionally safe environment where people won't be able to tell you to go fuck your mother, go to RPG.net"). Now, I would gladly put up the latter, but I suspect that NEVER IN A THOUSAND YEARS would the modclique put up the former, because somewhere deep down they recognize the weakness that theRPGsite's very existence puts them in, again, not that thousands would suddenly and permanently migrate over here, but that it would call into question the justifications of why they do a whole lot of questionable shit as mods (the claim that without strong and strict moderation, you'd just end up with an animal house
where interesting discussions would be impossible). The RPGsite is absolute proof that this is untrue; you can question whether we're an animal house, but the success of this site demonstrates the incredible richness of discussion that blooms when people don't have the banhammer looming over their very thoughts.
RPGPundit
Quote from: Benoist;414567RPGnet kills differing opinions, kills freedom of speech. Kills variety.
*Shrug*
I don't think that's the case. Simple as that.
Quote from: RPGPundit;414569The RPGsite is absolute proof that this is untrue; you can question whether we're an animal house, but the success of this site demonstrates the incredible richness of discussion that blooms when people don't have the banhammer looming over their very thoughts.
I see no 'richness'. All the discussions here look the same to me; they look like
people being dicks, to each other and to others that are absent. They sure do look to be enjoying the hell out of it,
and sometimes, so do I. But that's pretty much all I see. And this is weird to me, because individually, I've had decent conversations with almost everyone here.
No lies are required to call your forum nasty and awful, man. Most of the time, it sure does look like that. Maybe not to you, but to me, and I think to most people.
Nor are any lies required to dismiss you as a hate-monger. In general, you sure do sound like one.
Levi, if you think that, you're not really paying attention to what is discussed here outside of a few troll threads.
Folks, RPG.net isn't worth discussing unless you're a member there, and even then it's only barely worth discussing.
Quote from: Pseudoephedrine;414577Levi, if you think that, you're not really paying attention to what is discussed here outside of a few troll threads.
Could be. I swing by every few weeks, and only sometimes do I see a title that makes me say "Ohh. I should look at that".
And
every time, I wince. Every few months, I post for a day or two. You know the rest.
It's a legitimate viewpoint to someone who just dips in - which might very well put off some new posters. Delve deeper and you find more.
The nastiness just isn't hidden under a veneer of civility. You can be civil or not, but you don't need to hide it if you're royally pissed over something.
I mean, if we're going to play the nasty game, i can't tell you how many unpleasant PMs i've got at RPGnet. Mostly from the Poison'd shitstorms, but still.
Quote from: Levi Kornelsen;414578Could be. I swing by every few weeks, and only sometimes do I see a title that makes me say "Ohh. I should look at that".
And every time, I wince. Every few months, I post for a day or two. You know the rest.
There's a platitude about books and their covers that seems relevant here.
There's plenty of fine threads here with substantive content about playing the game. They tend not to have attention-grabbing headlines because they aren't troll threads. Try clicking on them instead.
Quote from: Levi Kornelsen;414573I see no 'richness'.
My God. Are you blind as a bat.
Quote from: Pseudoephedrine;414580Try clicking on them instead.
....After a rummage through each of the threads of the first page, I will admit to seeing less dickery than I have come to expect on previous visits. The threads with interesting titles do seem to be the hotspots. And, yes, more of an atmosphere of "we all know each other well" - the tribal thing, in the more genial sense. RPGnet is big enough that the only place I tend to see that is on the side boards.
But I haven't seen any actual content that I couldn't get "at home", in a style that I'm overall more comfortable with, and without being suddenly called a twat when I'm trying to do something engaging.
*Shrug*
It is more than I expected, though, I'll say that for sure.
Levi,
Are you being condescending intentionally or by accident?
There are plenty of good threads on here.
Of course it helps to visit more often than once every five months.
- Ed C.
The truth is that 98% of the threads on here have little conflict and lots of open and dynamic discussion. On RPG.net, 98% of the threads (and I mean the threads on the RPG section, which is of course a minority of the site, I'll remind everyone again) consist of mindless jabbering with little interesting discussion at all, because the environment is one of constantly walking on eggshells.
Here, there's 2% outright flaming. Over there, there's 2% useful content. I'd say our ratio works out much better.
RPGPundit
Quote from: Koltar;414618Are you being condescending intentionally or by accident?
Neither, exactly.
I can't discuss anything comfortably when I expect to be called a sack of shit again at any moment (See: Pundit on the volunteer team I'm part of). It may be a weird defense, but there it is. Apologies to you, though.
Quote from: Levi Kornelsen;414616But I haven't seen any actual content that I couldn't get "at home", in a style that I'm overall more comfortable with, and without being suddenly called a twat when I'm trying to do something engaging.
*Shrug*
It is more than I expected, though, I'll say that for sure.
Maybe it's that you're taking the liberty of being on RPGsite to use an uncharacteristically slithery voice, but this is a good distillation of the tone that keeps me off of RPG.net.
But I'm more comfortable playing the dozens if I want. Goes without saying RPG.net has a huge number of threads, but from when I do browse around, I don't see content I couldn't get "at home" either.
Obviously, RPG.net doesn't need to please me or any other given poster. RPGsite not needing to please you or any other given poster doesn't mean that all the threads here are just thinly veiled excuses for us to say "Y'all's faggots" back and forth.
Comments from Dan Davenport regarding the environment and the modclique at RPG.net:
QuoteI have to tell you, I feel a lot better since being de-Modded. I can't abide double-standards -- let alone double-standards serving as the basis for unwritten rules.
Back in the day, Tangency was created as a sewer to drain off the off-topic crap that was drowning out the discussion of RPGs. But as sewers are wont to do, it spawned its own life -- in this case, a liberal hivemind.
Now it's come to the point that going head-to-head with the Tangency Hivemind is considered "trolling". You can approach a subject from the right in the exact same way as the Hivemind approaches it from the left and get called on the carpet for disturbing the peace. Disrupting the political circle-jerk simply isn't allowed.
To make matters worse, discussing this state of affairs isn't allowed, either. The Powers That Be want peace before fairness, but they don't want to admit that that's what they want. Hence, there's this tripwire just waiting for anyone willing to return the Hivemind's fire.
Anyway... I'm done with all that now. It's back to focusing on RPGs for me.
We've butted heads before, Pundit, but I appreciate your supportive words.
This is from my blog (http://rpgpundit.xanga.com/734710196/item/?page=1&jump=1517619771&leftcmt=1#1517619771).
RPGPundit
Quote from: RPGPundit;414631Comments from Dan Davenport regarding the environment and the modclique at RPG.net:
This is from my blog (http://rpgpundit.xanga.com/734710196/item/?page=1&jump=1517619771&leftcmt=1#1517619771).
RPGPundit
Wow. I didn't know Dan Davenport was de-pantsed.
And Levi's still in complete denial.
After reading the asbove message from Dan Davenport , I then looked at Trouble Tickets for all the threads his name is connected to .
One thing I noticed: Jeez Luh-Weez that Nina is a cold Harsh Bitch! She must REALLY dislike Dan Davenport.
- Ed C.
Quote from: Levi Kornelsen;414573All the discussions here look the same to me; they look like people being dicks, [...]
No lies are required to call your forum nasty and awful, man.
It can get rough. But on the other hand, we've not had to make a
specific rule against starting a thread announcing you're going to masturbate to someone's avatar pic.
That a forum
needs a rule like that tells us a lot about the place. There's something foul brewing just under the surface. Thing is, there's always nastiness in forums, because there's nastiness in people. Ever buried an animal or even pile of vegie scraps, then dug it up again a few weeks later? It stinks. Leave it in the open with some air, it gets eaten up quickly and doesn't stink. It's
good to air out issues - stifle them and they just putrefy.
I mean, de-modding Dan Davenport? Seriously? I had no
idea he was right-wing, left-wing, or whatever - he's just mild-mannered and reasonable. And he's said what I've said for a long time - Tangency began as just part of the friction of the machine, but the friction came to have its own machine.
Most of the moderation rules came about because of stuff in Tangency. Furries and all that shit. You don't really need a heap of rules and regulations when people are discussing THAC0.
Fuck Tangency. At least at the Forge they put their suppressed hostility into game design.
And as Pundit said, they topic-banned Dan from talking about politics at all. If he does, they will permaban him. They need to hand out red armbands to all the mods, if they haven't already.
EDIT: Eh, Benoist is right (in a couple posts; scroll down). He's always told me the truth as he sees it. And much as I have a handle on my own reasons for doing my thing, I don't need to sneer.
Pundit, etc, will of course be able to view the original here; for those who need to see me on a high horse, he's can happily PM that around, make another blog post on how much I suck, whatever.
Later.
It is weird when someone writes something that sounds really thoughtful, but it has the makings of total bullshit.
Quote from: Levi Kornelsen;414647Now, I'm fairly sure we're down to bedrock here - you've got your view, I've got mine, and that's pretty much how it's going to stay for the time being; all that remains are the parting shots. I wouldn't mind at all if this was mine, though I've always been a sucker for a scrap. I will, of course, be back to read yours (as if I could stop myself).
No. You are absolutely right.
Since you are either persuaded I have been somehow manipulated by the Pundit to spew hate on RPGnet, or I am just a moron who does not understand the first thing about moderation and needs to be pet-talked to end this silly blathering of mine, we are not going to get anywhere.
The thing is, I just tell you the truth. To your face. Because some times, you do not act like you're just so much above everyone else's concerns that the little children must be talked to like they cannot even begin to grasp what power and responsibility you wield as an adult from RPGnet. I appreciate those times and sadly, this is not one of them.
Awww, man, Levi is just pulling our legs.
He is imitating someone douchy-but-concerned-talking person, isn`t he?
Its amazing what a knife can do, sometimes.
RPGPundit
Quote from: Levi Kornelsen;414525I'm not sure what you want me to respond to, precisely.
The stupid way you moderate your site, along with all the other unpleasant twats that live there, feeding off each other's bullshit.
Quote from: Levi Kornelsen;414573*Shrug*
I don't think that's the case. Simple as that.
Then you are in severe denial.
I got banned by some hypocrit prick just because i dared to say i don't like this or that video game in relevant discussion threads who then did exactly the same thing over and over himself. Puerile.
Never mind the passive aggressive crap that goes one all the time, supported by clique harpies and perpetrated by moderators like you who should know better.
You people defeat the function of your own site with every post you make.
Quote from: Levi Kornelsen;414621Neither, exactly.
I can't discuss anything comfortably when I expect to be called a sack of shit again at any moment (See: Pundit on the volunteer team I'm part of). It may be a weird defense, but there it is. Apologies to you, though.
And I can't discuss anything (or couldn't) on rpg.net when people can provoke and flame with impunity knowing that any response worth its salt will respond in the big red text of stupidity.
And if you can't discuss comfortably here then get a fucking life; that's the most supine crap i've ever heard. This site is hardly the wild west.
What I find interesting is that Levi claims the RPG Site is a sewer of trolling and shitstorms, moderates RPGnet like a reasonable peacemaker and all, but then, he goes to post on Story Games to get a Forge-buddy to come here and stir trouble (http://story-games.com/forums/?CommentID=299360):
Quote from: Levi on Story GamesTeataine (Or Gregor, as you like)...
I would enjoy watching you fight this fight, going where I've gone before you. I really would. It would be grotesquely entertaining to me, and I would cheer and laugh like the giant bastard that I often am, deep inside. It would bring joy and amusement to that part of my palate that is jaded and wishes to see sport of the kind that only deeply personal, tribal politics can provide.
You'd have to have the real core of that fight at the RPGsite, which, as sites go, is already nasty enough that I don't fear for the worsening of the discourse there the way I do on RPGnet. So, no loss there, except potentially to you. Hell, I've got my seat in the stands all picked out and everything - I'm in that thread, waiting for the fight.
You could be magnificent. Hell, I could show you all my sad, old fights there, and you might even learn a few new debating tricks, as well as developing a healthy pity, even scorn, for my worst moments.
Would it be worth it? Would you accomplish anything? Of course not. You need to be motivated by puffed-up indignation, raw spite, scorn, and some kind of ideological loyalty to even carry on the fight for long - and if you decide to fight that battle for long enough, you will be motivated in that way. I have been, many times, and it still comes back easily, in the kind a heady rush that can only be provided by telling some bastard on the internet that they are wrong.
Sounds great, huh?
So yeah. It's not a guess, and not unconscious at this point. It's seriously hypocritical on Levi's part to come here, tell us the RPG Site is a dump, that moderating RPGnet is so much more reasonable, that he is so much above the fray he just shrugs everything off as childish, nonsensical, to THEN go on yet another board and incite people to come here and create an entertaining shitstorm for him to watch.
Un-fucking-believable.
Hmm.. isn't inciting inter-forum conflicts the kind of things that people on rpg.net get banned for?
How much do you want to bet that Levi doesn't even get de-modded for it? I wouldn't be half-surprised if there's a thread somewhere in the "backroom" of The Tangency-site (formerly known as rpg.net) where this idea came up as a way to "deal" with the danger that theRPGsite represents to them.
RPGpundit
Now that's one for discussion on cross-forum drama by Mod in Trouble Tickets.
Yup. Maybe it should be reported. Its damaging our chance to make all three sites now involved an emotionally safe environment.
RPGPundit
(note that of course, I'm not bothered by the fact that Levi did this, but by the fact that another poster could not do this; that if someone who posts to theRPGsite, say One Horse Town, had done this, the RPG.net modclique would ban his ass immediately, but with one of their own they will give license to act with impunity)
Quiet, you kids, or this thread will be pulled offstage for an audit! :nono:
__________________
My mod voice is magenta
Quote from: Melan;414754__________________
My mod voice is magenta
*grins* :D
God I hate the fake professionalism of mods sometimes. Like they earned a moderating nobel prize, are so qualified to do the job they wrote several reference encyclopaedias on the topic, or even better, are some types of judges with a Law degree. Makes me laugh. "We are considering your request", "your ban is under Appeal." LOL
Quote from: RPGPundit;414749Yup. Maybe it should be reported. Its damaging our chance to make all three sites now involved an emotionally safe environment.
RPGPundit
(note that of course, I'm not bothered by the fact that Levi did this, but by the fact that another poster could not do this; that if someone who posts to theRPGsite, say One Horse Town, had done this, the RPG.net modclique would ban his ass immediately, but with one of their own they will give license to act with impunity)
What you're forgetting is that none of this took place at RPGnet, so you'd be laughed out of court.
As i pointed out almost immediately, it is rank hypocrisy on Levi's part, but RPGnet as a forum wasn't involved - just one of the mods.
Quote from: One Horse Town;414762What you're forgetting is that none of this took place at RPGnet, so you'd be laughed out of court.
As i pointed out almost immediately, it is rank hypocrisy on Levi's part, but RPGnet as a forum wasn't involved - just one of the mods.
RPG.net has previously banned posters for things they did on other forums.
RPGPundit
But I bet that poster wasn't special.
Quote from: Benoist;414738incite people to come here and create an entertaining shitstorm for him to watch.
You read that as incitement?
Huh.
I wrote it as a kind of commentary on how twisted this kind of fighting makes us all. -
"motivated by puffed-up indignation, raw spite, scorn, and some kind of ideological loyalty" - including me. As an admission that I'm bent enough to enjoy fighting over the Forge-not-Forge stuff, even revel in it, but not so bent that I can't see how it
is shitty, and how it brings us all down. He decided not to come partly because he read as I wrote it.
Seriously, all through this thread, I've expected to be called a twisted fuck, which would be fair. I've pretty much been saying "Hey, I'm bent, there it is".
Instead, I'm being written as a hypocritical inciter. It's really odd.
Half a dozen one way, six the other, you are still a turd.
What lack of presence you must have in real life.
Quote from: Levi Kornelsen;414768You read that as incitement?
Totally. You were even
giddy about it. You posted as much on this very site.
You couldn't wait for the shitstorm to come. You had the popcorn ready and all!
So yes, you are being such a hypocrite right now.
It's not "odd." It's just the plain truth.
Quote from: Levi Kornelsen;414768Instead, I'm being written as a hypocritical inciter. It's really odd.
It isn't that odd once you see the evidence posted in this thread that gives supporting proof to the hypocritical inciter charge.
Face it, you've managed to outsmart yourself this time and been caught.
And for now on, no matter what he says, everyone will always take it as bullshit because he is, clearly, full of it. That is sad. Go change your screen name turd.
Notice Levi just deleted his avatar and signature.
Admission of guilt?
Possibly...
Villagers and pitchforks.
Quote from: One Horse Town;414792Villagers and pitchforks.
It takes a village to raze a castle.
Quote from: Benoist;414775Totally. You were even giddy about it. You posted as much on this very site.
You couldn't wait for the shitstorm to come. You had the popcorn ready and all!
So yes, you are being such an hypocrite right now.
It's not "odd." It's just the plain truth.
Hm. Given that you don't consider enjoying these kinds of arguments to be a
weakness, that follows.
That's... A rather different view than I have. It also explains a fair bit, to me, about why you hate the moderation on RPGnet. I mean, reading ugly fights and even enjoying the trainwreck, but
still shutting them down when that's how it works, that's a usual thing for me, and a thing I agree with. And if that kind of thing smells like hypocrisy to you, then vast swathes of what I think are likely going to smell the same.
Quote from: Benoist;414789Notice Levi just deleted his avatar and signature.
Nah, I did that last night. Both were dated; I'm not sure if there's a point to replacing them or not.
Quote from: One Horse Town;414792Villagers and pitchforks.
And torches! Can't forget the torches....
Quote from: Levi Kornelsen;414794Hm. Given that you don't consider enjoying these kinds of arguments to be a weakness, that follows.
That's... A rather different view than I have. It also explains a fair bit, to me, about why you hate the moderation on RPGnet. I mean, reading ugly fights and even enjoying the trainwreck, but still shutting them down when that's how it works, that's a usual thing for me, and a thing I agree with. And if that kind of thing smells like hypocrisy to you, then vast swathes of what I think are likely going to smell the same.
Wait, you provoke and enjoy shitstorms, and you come down on people other than yourself for participating in them with your mod powers. And you are
surprised that people think you are a hypocrite? What the hell? Of course you're a hypocrite. You punish people for doing something that you not only enjoy, but also do on a regular basis.
-Frank
Quote from: Levi Kornelsen;414794Hm. Given that you don't consider enjoying these kinds of arguments to be a weakness, that follows.
That's... A rather different view than I have. It also explains a fair bit, to me, about why you hate the moderation on RPGnet. I mean, reading ugly fights and even enjoying the trainwreck, but still shutting them down when that's how it works, that's a usual thing for me, and a thing I agree with. And if that kind of thing smells like hypocrisy to you, then vast swathes of what I think are likely going to smell the same.
Except there is evidence that you also enjoy instigating some of those ugly fights and enjoy reading the trainwreck which you so tearfully then must lock as a thread.
Hypocrite.
Quote from: FrankTrollman;414797Wait, you provoke and enjoy shitstorms, and you come down on people other than yourself for participating in them with your mod powers. And you are surprised that people think you are a hypocrite? What the hell? Of course you're a hypocrite. You punish people for doing something that you not only enjoy, but also do on a regular basis.
-Frank
Normally Frank has to explain it over three pages, educating you about the history and explaining all of the details about how things change over time, building up to a climax. The fact that Frank can jump in and lay it down in three sentences proves you are retarded.
Quote from: FrankTrollman;414797Wait, you provoke and enjoy shitstorms, and you come down on people other than yourself for participating in them with your mod powers.
You missed a beat.
I keep my provocative nonsense to other sites, like here, where I've always believed it to be not only acceptable but actually
invited.
EDIT: I say "believed" because following up on Pseudo's "go tour the threads" thing has shaken me on that count a little.
Quote from: FrankTrollman;414797And you are surprised that people think you are a hypocrite? What the hell? Of course you're a hypocrite. You punish people for doing something that you not only enjoy, but also do on a regular basis.
I also listen to loud music at home, but agree with kicking people off the bus for cranking the volume there, and would happily do so if asked. Is that hypocrisy?
Quote from: FrankTrollman;414797Wait, you provoke and enjoy shitstorms, and you come down on people other than yourself for participating in them with your mod powers. And you are surprised that people think you are a hypocrite?
Don't forget the claim he propagates also here, on RPGnet and on Story Games that the RPG Site is this Gawd-Awful place where people troll endlessly, which justifies the moderation of RPGnet, while he will incite people to come on to the RPG Site to create the very shitstorms he criticizes. I mean. If that is not hypocritical, I don't know what is!
Quote from: Levi Kornelsen;414795Nah, I did that last night. Both were dated; I'm not sure if there's a point to replacing them or not.
Maybe, maybe not - but the turtle face was cute and likable even if the text near it sometimes wasn't.
- Ed C.
Quote from: Levi Kornelsen;414800I keep my provocative nonsense to other sites, like here, where I've always believed it to be not only acceptable but actually invited.
No, no, no, Levi. :)
YOU invite it, you incite people to come on here and create the very shitstorms you decry, so as to validate your own diagnostic that this place is just the asshole of the internet, your sense of superiority, and the part you take in RPGnet's modclique in the same process. Which, let's face it, is not only hypocritical, but outright sleazy.
Quote from: Benoist;414803YOU invite it, you incite people to come on here and create the very shitstorms you decry, so as to validate your own diagnostic that this place is just the asshole of the internet, your sense of superiority, and the part you take in RPGnet's modclique in the same process. Which, let's face it, is not only hypocritical, but outright sleazy.
The bit about validating me as a mod doesn't sting.
But, well, the rest of the post
does sting, a bit. Not like, "Oh, he's got me", but like "There's something to this, dear self. You never did read far beyond the argumentative threads, did you now? But you did judge them on just that slice and share that judgement around."
Quote from: Levi Kornelsen;414807But, well, the rest of the post does sting, a bit. Not like, "Oh, he's got me", but like "There's something to this, dear self. You never did read far beyond the argumentative threads, did you now? But you did judge them on just that slice and share that judgement around."
Give me a fucking break.
Quote from: Jimmy Swaggert"I Have Sinned Against You." (http://www.americanrhetoric.com/speeches/jswaggartapologysermon.html)
Quote from: jeff37923;414809Give me a fucking break.
I think Levi is trying to say he's sorry; maybe give him a break? You might get him to rethink other positions he's taken.
Quote from: Bill White;414813I think Levi is trying to say he's sorry; maybe give him a break? You might get him to rethink other positions he's taken.
there's only one way a person can say sorry and that wasn't it.
I'm quite glad to hear that Levi admits he had the wrong opinion of this site. How he could have formed this wrong opinion having spent all the time he has on here is a bit baffling to me, though.
On the other hand, I wonder what his response would be to the fact that this appears, if anything, more egregious than the inter-forum antics that other users have done that got them banned from RPG.net.
RPGPundit
Quote from: RPGPundit;414824I'm quite glad to hear that Levi admits he had the wrong opinion of this site. How he could have formed this wrong opinion having spent all the time he has on here is a bit baffling to me, though.
Dude, do you
remember any of the threads I've tried to start or join?
As I recall, half of them died with minimal anything - a post from Clash, maybe three or four from others - and the other half were me spit-balling stuff in a way that said "theory, therefore trolling" to the forum. I'm sure there were more, but that's the stuff I recall.
Plus the hot threads I got in on, full of the kind of venom you poured out on my head blogside yesterday. (From me, just as much as others)
Is my memory exaggerated? I'll probably go and look; I mean, the threads should still be there.
Quote from: RPGPundit;414824On the other hand, I wonder what his response would be to the fact that this appears, if anything, more egregious than the inter-forum antics that other users have done that got them banned from RPG.net.
Of course such stuff doesn't belong on RPGnet. That was the
point - I swung by here because I considered this the right place to indulge in such stuff.
I also post on /tg/ and once in a rare while on /b/ - the scientology protests were fun. I have a facebook account, a twitter account, and email. If I started finding my /b/ posts from the pre-protest period (before moot smacked it out), and putting them onto facebook? A fair number of those folks would be
appalled.
My concern, really, is with just how off my judgement of the site has been or become. Discovering you may be on the back lawn when you thought you were in the arena, and told others "that's the arena; it will make you mean and cruel"? Not so funny.
Quote from: Bill White;414813I think Levi is trying to say he's sorry; maybe give him a break? You might get him to rethink other positions he's taken.
Welcome Bill, by the way. :)
Quote from: Bill White;414813I think Levi is trying to say he's sorry; maybe give him a break? You might get him to rethink other positions he's taken.
I think Levi is dissembling because he was caught engaging in the same behavior that he has condemned. Prior to getting found out, it appeared that he couldn't give two shits about what theRPGSite was about. Now he is claiming to have misjudged an entire forum that he has been a part of for years?
Quote from: Levi Kornelsen;414838My concern, really, is with just how off my judgement of the site has been or become. Discovering you may be on the back lawn when you thought you were in the arena, and told others "that's the arena; it will make you mean and cruel"? Not so funny.
OK. We might be on to some progress here.
Quote from: Benoist;414843Welcome Bill, by the way. :)
Yeah, what he said.
Quote from: jeff37923;414844Now he is claiming to have misjudged an entire forum that he has been a part of for years?
To be fair, he also accused a poster named Topher of basically posting too much to Trouble Tickets at RPGnet, when really, he doesn't. I do, but he doesn't.
Levi suffers from the condition known as, "trying to fit in wherever they go." It inevitably ends in this kind of breakdown sooner or later.
Topher is a scumbag, regardless of the part of RPGnet he posts on.
Quote from: Benoist;414850Topher is a scumbag, regardless of the part of RPGnet he posts on.
???
Too much garlick today?
Quote from: One Horse Town;414852???
Too much garlick today?
LOL maybe. I shouldn't have written that. He's not here to defend himself.
Quote from: One Horse Town;414848Levi suffers from the condition known as, "trying to fit in wherever they go."
:confused:
Of course. That's not a condition; that's dead normal. Almost everyone reorients their actions to the environment, and to those around them. Being
unwilling to bend certain ways is usual; being
unable to do so, or overly rigid, is a sign of being unwell.
Unless you mean something rather different.
Quote from: One Horse Town;414848Levi suffers from the condition known as, "trying to fit in wherever they go." It inevitably ends in this kind of breakdown sooner or later.
Bingo. I'm afraid my friend Pierce Inverarity had him pegged long ago.
Quote from: Levi Kornelsen;414855:confused:
Of course. That's not a condition; that's dead normal. Almost everyone reorients their actions to the environment, and to those around them. Being unwilling to bend certain ways is usual; being unable to do so, or overly rigid, is a sign of being unwell.
Unless you mean something rather different.
C'mon.
A) RPGnet - I'm a reasonable dude!
B) Storygames - Yeah, the RPGsite is rank!
C) RPGsite - Ooh, a wanna see a fight!
If A is true, you wouldn't be stirring up trouble between B and C.
If B is true, you wouldn't mention C here unless you're the kind of rubber-necker that you decry at A.
C, well that's kind of a rule of nature.
Quote from: jeff37923;414844I think Levi is dissembling because he was caught engaging in the same behavior that he has condemned.
I condemn it's presence
on RPGnet; it doesn't belong there.
This distinction really doesn't
matter to you?
Quote from: Levi Kornelsen;414855Of course. That's not a condition; that's dead normal. Almost everyone reorients their actions to the environment, and to those around them. Being unwilling to bend certain ways is usual; being unable to do so, or overly rigid, is a sign of being unwell.
Nice strawman argument. Though your premise that people react to their environments is absolutely true, it is not an either/or choice, but a matter of degrees. Between the person who is so unwilling to compromise anything as to be unfit of what most individuals would consider normal social interactions and the social whore who has no personality of his or her own, there is a world of excluded middle.
Quote from: One Horse Town;414859C'mon.
A) RPGnet - I'm a reasonable dude!
B) Storygames - Yeah, the RPGsite is rank!
C) RPGsite - Ooh, a wanna see a fight!
If A is true, you wouldn't be stirring up trouble between B and C.
A) RPGnet: I'm here to
be reasonable, and engage in reasoned stuff.
People keep claiming for me that I'm reasonable and nice, as if I have only one mood. I think that's complimentary, but it is a pretty one-dimensional slice. I try to be reasonable
while I'm there; that's how the site is oriented.
Quote from: Levi Kornelsen;414861I condemn it's presence on RPGnet; it doesn't belong there.
This distinction really doesn't matter to you?
You view the distinction as a boundary for your own situational behavior while I view the distinction as a thin justification for a lack of integrity on your part.
Quote from: Levi Kornelsen;414863People keep claiming for me that I'm reasonable and nice, as if I have only one mood. I think that's complimentary, but it is a pretty one-dimensional slice. I try to be reasonable while I'm there; that's how the site is oriented.
Care to define the real you, Levi?
Quote from: Levi Kornelsen;414863A) RPGnet: I'm here to be reasonable, and engage in reasoned stuff.
People keep claiming for me that I'm reasonable and nice, as if I have only one mood. I think that's complimentary, but it is a pretty one-dimensional slice. I try to be reasonable while I'm there; that's how the site is oriented.
We had a guy here once called Tony LB.
You're channelling him in this thread. Caught in a lie, he'd act all reasonable and "can't we get along?" In the end i ate his liver with a fine chianti. (well, ok, that's a lie). But i think there's a point.
Quote from: JongWK;414865Care to define the real you, Levi?
The tall guy obsessing over some burning game idea, anticipating the next game of whatever. Pretty good at dancing for a nightclub patron, fan of twangy music, who would really like to understand how large groups of people work. Wishes he could study Psychohistory, but it doesn't exist. Often forgets to shave; wears solid dark colors, no logos or patterns. Owns way, way too many decks of playing cards. Raised in a preacher's house; abandoned his faith in Bible College and became something else entirely. Has bad habits he wishes he didn't - trying to quit smoking, fights too much on the internet, loves greasy food. Much more.
...A collection of bits. Like anyone. Or, if you prefer, a quick identity list:
Gamer, Boyfriend, Tinkerer, Fanboy, Divorcee, Ex-Religious, Cat Owner, Couch Potato, Loudmouth, Forumite. Many more.
If you mean some special, vaunted, and singular central identity, meh. That's silly.
Quote from: One Horse Town;414866We had a guy here once called Tony LB.
You're channelling him in this thread. Caught in a lie, he'd act all reasonable and "can't we get along?" In the end i ate his liver with a fine chianti. (well, ok, that's a lie). But i think there's a point.
There is a point, yes. I do owe the forum as a whole here an apology for mistreatment. Whether folks believe me that it came from misjudgment, or maintain that it's a product of malice, that remains the case.
Apologies, folks.
Quote from: Levi Kornelsen;414838Dude, do you remember any of the threads I've tried to start or join?
As I recall, half of them died with minimal anything
If half the threads you start get a few posts, then you're doing well. That's the nature of a forum, whether here or at rpg.net, whether about rpgs or something else. A forum is just a conversation, and when you bring up a topic at a party, sometimes you have a great conversation about it, sometimes no-one's really interested, sometimes they would be normally but aren't today, or happen to be listening to something more interesting, and so on.
That's the nature of conversations in a large group. Sometimes they launch off, usually they fizzle.
If people get threatened with being chucked out for saying things like "you're moving the goalposts", well, the fizzle is a lot more likely. That's what made the atmosphere at rpg.net and the Forge so stifling, and why so little in productive ideas come out of those places.
Interesting that Levi tells us that's the culture of rpg.net, that's why you can't just talk like normal people. Which raises the question,
why? Why is it we manage here with normal speech, but rpg.net couldn't possibly survive five minutes with it? Does it really all come down to not wanting to hurt the feelings of the transgendered socialist furries, or what?
Quote from: Kyle Aaron;414870If half the threads you start get a few posts, then you're doing well.
Hey Kyle, got a thread to start? I'm short on ideas this week and a couple more threads would be good for draining the pus out of this one.
Seriously, I don't see where the problem is. Maybe I'm missing some nuances of the English language. I don't have any special like or dislike for Levi, but this is weird even for this place.
I work as a trainer for different companies. I some training courses, it is appropriate a necessary to wear a suit and a tie. In some others, it is not and I need to dress casually. In some training courses, swearing is verboten. In some others, a bit of swearing can create rapport with the audience (we Spaniards tend to swear a lot). So, I adjust my behaviour to the rules of the place I am in, and the persons I'm interacting with.
What Levi is saying is that he behaves differently according to the place he is. How is that worth discussing? It is like saying I should behave in the exact same way disregarding at which company I am teaching. It's ridiculous.
Levi forbids the fights and calling other people cunts on RPG.net because those are the rules there, and here is par for the course so he enjoys that, In different places he enjoys different things. There's nothing hypocritical or incoherent on that.
Quote from: Kyle Aaron;414870If half the threads you start get a few posts, then you're doing well. That's the nature of a forum, whether here or at rpg.net, whether about rpgs or something else.
That really,
really doesn't match my experience on RPGnet, before, as, or between times as a mod.
Quote from: jeff37923;414864You view the distinction as a boundary for your own situational behavior while I view the distinction as a thin justification for a lack of integrity on your part.
Dude, again, this is really hypocritical and absurd on your part, Jeff. No one behaves like that, so I can't see the point of demanding that fictitious integrity from someone when I am pretty sure you have different behaviours according to the place you are at.
Quote from: JongWK;414865Care to define the real you, Levi?
Dude, you are posting this in a place run by an imaginary persona that is claiming an imaginary victory in an imaginary war over some people that have never met him in person, and over who he holds zero influence. My irony meter just broke :D
Also, Gleichman makes a very interesting post on this matter:
http://whitehall-paraindustries.blogspot.com/2010/11/outcome-in-swine-wars.html
As he says, if this is what the Pundit calls a victory, defeat must be a real bitch :D
Quote from: Imperator;414876an imaginary war
Two people believed it. Both have claimed victory.
I act differently when I'm in a hospital or a funeral home than when I'm at a bar. I act differently when I'm at the Lodge than when I'm at the pipe club.
Social adaptation is logical and necessary.
But what doesn't change is my base opinions. My fundamental nature. Nor do I act differently in one RPG related forum than another, going so far as to promote and defend one idea in one place as a positive and then engage in activity that would seemingly reject this principle in another place.
I think that's what's confusing people about Levi here.
RPGPundit
Quote from: Imperator;414876Also, Gleichman makes a very interesting post on this matter:
http://whitehall-paraindustries.blogspot.com/2010/11/outcome-in-swine-wars.html
As he says, if this is what the Pundit calls a victory, defeat must be a real bitch :D
A pretty pathetic post by a pretty pathetic dude. I mean shit, If I'm France and Edwards is Great Britain, then Gleichman must be like, Serbia or something. He's a non-starter, a non-entity that never amounted to anything.
He says both me and Edwards could have been more than what we were; that's disputable, but what isn't in dispute is that Gleichman clearly couldn't have been anything more than what he was, which is sad.
As for "defeat", its relative. WotC is a mess right now, but as even Gleichman recognizes it has fuck all to do with Edwards, and everything to do with the incompetence of the people running WotC.
Meanwhile, Swine-Theory games have all but disappeared from the radar. No one is suggesting that the Mountain Witch or Dogs in the Vinyard or the Shab Al-hiri Roach were the Way of the Future, as they were suggesting only a few years ago. The Forge has been resoundingly defeated in the war of ideas. In the meantime, what is the major force in RPG-thinking that has arisen in these last few years? The Old School Renaissance; which, whatever issues I may have with it aside, is a bastion of rejecting the mentality of everything the Forge stands for and promoting exactly the kind of Regular Roleplaying I have been defending all along. Games, ESPECIALLY INDEPENDENTLY PUBLISHED GAMES THAT WERE SUPPOSED TO BE THE FORGE'S "KINGDOM" (I can't stress that enough) are going away from the mentality of Forge-pretentiousness and into the dominance of regular RPG fun.
Most of those who were Forge "kool-aid drinkers" are now Sell-outs by the standards of the Forge circa 2005. If you took a time machine and went back only five years ago, the Forgies would be fucking APPALLED by what has come about: with the hardcore half of their membership sunken into obscurity and the other half having given up all their radical principles to create regular RPGs for profit-motive.
That's the reality of the situation: that the War had terrible costs is no doubt true, but the one side is broken and bankrupt with no visible future, while the other is not only still standing but is the way things are moving toward in the foreseeable future.
RPGpundit
Since the demise of the Forge I have decided to sign up @ RPGNet to check it out. Between RPGSite & Forge all my bases were covered so it will be interesting to see how RPGNet plays out.
The one post Benoist dug-up was a bit damning but I don't know the whole of it so...?
Levi seems like an agreeable fellow if his posts here are genuine. He has admitted his myopic tendencies in a coherent and reasonable manner from what I can see...and we all do the "When in Rome" bit,this life demands no less.
I ignore the petulant and obfuscatory blather that sometimes happens here because there is some AWESOME gaming advice,PbP opportunities and comedy to boot. All things considered this site KICKS ASS.
From my nube perspective Pundy seems like a fair mod. and his mod persona may well be just that. A persona he adopts for shock value. I think he is funny for the most part with some neat insights into gaming. I can see how some would be put off by his style and I can't say if that is good or bad for the site overall.
All personal stuff aside perhaps Levi has some interesting things to say about RPG's etc...which is why we are here?
:)
Quote from: Imperator;414873Seriously, I don't see where the problem is. Maybe I'm missing some nuances of the English language. I don't have any special like or dislike for Levi, but this is weird even for this place.
I work as a trainer for different companies. I some training courses, it is appropriate a necessary to wear a suit and a tie. In some others, it is not and I need to dress casually. In some training courses, swearing is verboten. In some others, a bit of swearing can create rapport with the audience (we Spaniards tend to swear a lot). So, I adjust my behaviour to the rules of the place I am in, and the persons I'm interacting with.
What Levi is saying is that he behaves differently according to the place he is. How is that worth discussing? It is like saying I should behave in the exact same way disregarding at which company I am teaching. It's ridiculous.
Levi forbids the fights and calling other people cunts on RPG.net because those are the rules there, and here is par for the course so he enjoys that, In different places he enjoys different things. There's nothing hypocritical or incoherent on that.
nicely put...
Quote from: Kyle Aaron;414638I mean, de-modding Dan Davenport? Seriously? I had no idea he was right-wing, left-wing, or whatever - he's just mild-mannered and reasonable. And he's said what I've said for a long time - Tangency began as just part of the friction of the machine, but the friction came to have its own machine.
I appreciate that, Kyle. I have to confess, though, that Tangency tended to bring out my combative side more often than I'd like. I guess there's only so many topics a guy can see describing how much his kind sucks before blowing a gasket.
Quote from: Kyle Aaron;414638Most of the moderation rules came about because of stuff in Tangency. Furries and all that shit. You don't really need a heap of rules and regulations when people are discussing THAC0.
Probably not, although I always say that the right thing to do depends upon the effect you want. I enforce pretty strict rules in #rpgnet chat, and the locals seem to like it that way. If you enjoy cussing at the top of your virtual lungs, though, you probably won't.
The problem I see with the moderation at RPGnet is the fact that it's inconsistent. Just look at the topics on any given day in Tangency slamming anyone to the right of Michael Moore, none of which are considered inflammatory. Then watch what happens when someone dares to post something equivalent from a different perspective. The goal of moderation is peace, not fairness -- essentially, because the Left dominates Tangency, it's mob rule. The Left is the squeaky wheel that gets the grease.
That said, I hate to see Levi dogpiled here. In my experience, he really is a good guy.
Quote from: One Horse Town;414882Two people believed it. Both have claimed victory.
Two people having delusions are still having delusions. There is a big bunch on people forming the Flat Earth Society. The Earth is still round.
Quote from: RPGPundit;414890As for "defeat", its relative. WotC is a mess right now, but as even Gleichman recognizes it has fuck all to do with Edwards, and everything to do with the incompetence of the people running WotC.
I don't see how WotC is a mess, and you don't provide any proof, as usual, to sustain such a point. As far as we all know, 4e is selling and is profitable. That is far away from being a mess of any kind.
QuoteThe Forge has been resoundingly defeated in the war of ideas.
Show me proof of the existance of that war. There is no such a ar, because playing D&D 4e doesn't preclude you from playing any other game. I'm running RuneQuest and CoC thse days, but I also run indie games. And it's the same for a lot of people who don't know and don't care about a war that does not exist. You are the one making the assertion that there is a war, the burden of the proof is on you.
QuoteIn the meantime, what is the major force in RPG-thinking that has arisen in these last few years? The Old School Renaissance; which, whatever issues I may have with it aside, is a bastion of rejecting the mentality of everything the Forge stands for and promoting exactly the kind of Regular Roleplaying I have been defending all along.
The OSR is another blip on the radar, just as the Forge, RPG.net and this place are. Compared to the RPGA, the OSR is a wart. And then, the RPGA is a small fraction of the total number of gamers out there. So the OSR has exactly zero influence. Most people play the most recent version of D&D, or PF, or maybe WoD, if they don't care about changing editions. They neither know nor play other games, be them OSR, indie, or any other.
Again, you need to provide some proof, as Ron Edwards should. Neither of you will be able to do that, I think. Of course you can say that you won the War, as you can say that you are the Queen Elizabeth II with a moustache.
Quote from: Dan Davenport;414922That said, I hate to see Levi dogpiled here. In my experience, he really is a good guy.
Hi Dan, good to see you here!
You reap what you sow. Levi has been somewhat inconsistant in his views, dependant on where he's been posting. I think he's acknowledged that now.
Quote from: Dan Davenport;414922That said, I hate to see Levi dogpiled here. In my experience, he really is a good guy.
Hi there, Dan. Welcome back. And duly noted.
Quote from: Koltar;414635After reading the asbove message from Dan Davenport , I then looked at Trouble Tickets for all the threads his name is connected to .
One thing I noticed: Jeez Luh-Weez that Nina is a cold Harsh Bitch! She must REALLY dislike Dan Davenport.
- Ed C.
Nina affects a "professional voice" while modding that, yes, can make her sound rather cold.
That said, she has seemed rather focused on my activities for months now.
Quote from: Dan Davenport;414929That said, she has seemed rather focused on my activities for months now.
Oh dear, i'm doomed. :)
Write some reviews on here Dan, then I have absolutely no reason to ever look at Rpg.NET again! :)
Quote from: Imperator;414923Again, you need to provide some proof, as Ron Edwards should. Neither of you will be able to do that, I think. Of course you can say that you won the War, as you can say that you are the Queen Elizabeth II with a moustache.
Pundit, if you ever get tired of being Bill the Butcher, you could give this a go:
(http://farm5.static.flickr.com/4129/5152303205_c36c865518_m.jpg)
HA! That avatar is AWESOME. LOL :D
Needs a pipe!
Quote from: One Horse Town;414932Oh dear, i'm doomed. :)
Heh. Could be. Sorry, I'm kinda out of the loop now. ;)
I gotta say, though, I find it especially galling to have been run out of the clubhouse in part by someone who isn't even a gamer.
(Yeah, I went there, Nina. Sorry. It's true.)
Quote from: EBM;414933Write some reviews on here Dan, then I have absolutely no reason to ever look at Rpg.NET again! :)
Heh. That's very kind of you, EBM. Unfortunately, I have plenty of review copies right now for which I've promised reviews on RPGnet, and I'm a man of my word, the opinions of the Hivemind notwithstanding. :)
Quote from: Benoist;414939HA! That avatar is AWESOME. LOL :D
Needs a pipe!
I figured "done is better than good" in this case :)
Quote from: Dan Davenport;414941I gotta say, though, I find it especially galling to have been run out of the clubhouse in part by someone who isn't even a gamer.
That's no great surprise to anyone who has been paying attention.
Quote from: One Horse Town;414949That's no great surprise to anyone who has been paying attention.
OK. I fully admit I haven't been paying attention. Nina is not a gamer, then?
Quote from: Benoist;414950OK. I fully admit I haven't been paying attention. Nina is not a gamer, then?
This is perplexing to me. How does that work?
Quote from: Benoist;414950OK. I fully admit I haven't been paying attention. Nina is not a gamer, then?
Nope, not unless you count trying gaming a handful of times. I think it probably does say a lot about the influence of Tangency that a non-gamer is qualified to be an Admin at RPGnet.
Quote from: Benoist;414939Needs a pipe!
But perhaps something along these lines?
(http://farm5.static.flickr.com/4060/5152952560_71f9f2a67a_m.jpg)
Quote from: Benoist;414950OK. I fully admit I haven't been paying attention. Nina is not a gamer, then?
I can't recall a single post made to the RPG section of the site that wasn't 'official'. Then again, i probably only scan 1% of the RPG threads over there, so my sample is woefully short.
Put it this way, i'm not surprised.
Quote from: Cole;414952This is perplexing to me. How does that work?
Well, I don't think you
have to be a gamer to enforce RPGnet rules.
Why you've
want to is a separate matter. She has friends there who happen to game, which makes sense for someone who wants to hang out there, but
running the place? That I've never fully understood.
Quote from: RPGPundit;414890I mean shit, If I'm France and Edwards is Great Britain, then Gleichman must be like, Serbia or something. He's a non-starter, a non-entity that never amounted to anything.
I never claimed to be anything, and in fact I've always was upfront in stating that I'm unimportant in this hobby. I'm just a GM and player, one of millions. With opinions that may be right or wrong. And either way, it's a small thing because we're talking about small things.
But you, that is a different matter. You wanted to be Kingmaker at least if not King. Better than anyone else on the whole Internet (which is a sick goal if you think about it). But it didn't turn out that way.
Mearls, who you agree is a Swine owns your pet game. It is he and not you who decided what 4E was. Your Hero Dancy turned on you, calling you and yours the past and pointing to your foe as the future.
And after all the brown nosing you did for both Dancy and D20. What a shame.
Now, as much as Edwards- you're a laughing stock across the Internet. For playing the drooling rabid puppy barking. Driven by ego and lacking any the virtues of a good let alone great man. I'd pity you, if you're entire online image wasn't fake.
But remain great in your own mind, completely unaware of the dangers of hurbis and its costs for as long as you can. Even as a online joke, one cannot be as you without tainting your soul.
QuoteMeanwhile, Swine-Theory games have all but disappeared from the radar.
That is a lie, and will be a lie as long as 4E D&D remains the top of the gaming world.
I know you have trouble keeping track of reality. But remember? Mearls == Swine == 4E D&D. That is something you've agreed with, I can't imagine why you forgot. Oh wait, yes of course- your ego. It tends to backtrack and spin all the time.
Now 4E may go the way of 2E and be replaced by a better game. For something else we agree on is that the theory that spawned it was flawed. But that will happen due to market forces, not because of you.
In the same way Edwards can't claim anything worthwhile because Mearls has all the credit, you fail as well since the market rules the outcome here- not a online blowhard.
I'll give you therpgsite for what it's worth. It was never a victory condition in the Swine War, but I understand why you tried to make it one- keeping it open is the one thing you do control after all. It's hard work, and you deserve respect for it, for it is easily a far better site than rpgnet.
I mean that honestly, although given what you think of rpgnet- perhaps you'll view this as damning with faint praise. And perhaps it is at that.
You could have handled this so much better. But I understand why you didn't. A good wise post would have had a few heads nodding and a short post count. But that wouldn't do.
You of all people understand that only the most extreme statements draw attention. You of all people understand that the rational man is forgotten online. You of all people know know that only bile attracts comment. You of all people know that the big lie is the best lie.
And because I know you understand and use this knowledge to your own ends- is why I know that you are no friend of the rpg hobby.
And you could have been. If only because it has so few.
Quote from: Imperator;414876Dude, again, this is really hypocritical and absurd on your part, Jeff. No one behaves like that, so I can't see the point of demanding that fictitious integrity from someone when I am pretty sure you have different behaviours according to the place you are at.
Yet my behavior still abides by my own personal integrity, regardless of where I am. Just because you are allowed to do something depending on your location, does not give credibility to the action.
Just because Levi can encourage cross-forum shenanigans outside of RPGnet does not excuse that. Since when he is at RPGnet he has used his Mod position to punish those who have behaved in a similar manner, I believe it would behoove him to maintain higher standards when he is outside of RPGnet. Otherwise, he is being a hypocrite.
Quote from: Dan Davenport;414953Nope, not unless you count trying gaming a handful of times. I think it probably does say a lot about the influence of Tangency that a non-gamer is qualified to be an Admin at RPGnet.
Hm. Does say a lot indeed.
Welcome back, Brian. This thread is now the best in RPGsite history.
Quote from: D-503;414489Out of passing interest, how many of you cunts are just resentful because they banned you?
I ask because I care.
Open's all right, the main problem with it is a massive overemphasis on consumerism rather than anything mentioned here.
Tangency would be better closed. I also find it extraordinary that they have Porn Monday and regular porn discussions given the general tenor of the site. I never wanted moderation, but if it's there Porn Monday is exactly the sort of thing I'd moderate into oblivion.
It's an rpg site, why does it need a regular porn discussion thread?
Oh, and for the record, I'm a big fan of Levi. I disagree with him about this place, but people can disagree. I still have huge time for him.
This thread has seriously grown since I last read it, but just thought I'd go on record here to say I have never been banned from RPG.net, because I've never posted there.
Quote from: Cole;414954But perhaps something along these lines?
You got it. Perfect. :)
Quote from: Levi Kornelsen;414525I'm not sure what you want me to respond to, precisely.
I mean, judgments have been thrown at me. Some are accurate to one degree or another, some aren't. The accurate ones sting a bit, the others don't. And, well, I don't act the same way in church as I do in a nightclub, I don't think the codes of behavior expected in different places somehow ought to be identical. I also think that the culture here is mainly one of being the loudest asshole in the room, which makes it a great site for discussions of Forge-Love vs. Forge-Hate, since "loudest asshole" is basically what those discussions always end up being anyway. Call that whatever you want.
Judgments have been thrown at the site where I volunteer, and the way it manages it's shit. Cool. Those throwing said insults aren't posters there, for the most part, so there's no response really needed - If you care about the environment there, contact me there. If you're not a poster there, your opinions on how we manage our shit are yours; enjoy them, revel in them, carry on with them. But they aren't my problem.
Honestly, where I'm concerned this shit is completely true, can't argue one bit. I can't stand RPG.net so they really shouldn't be concerned I suppose. I do think describing forum shit as "culture" is giving it a bit too much weight, but whatever, semantics and all. I've always found Levi when posting here to be at least willing to give the appearance of being open-minded (edit: how prophetic), and I can't know much more than that about the feller.
Quote from: One Horse Town;414967Welcome back, Brian. This thread is now the best in RPGsite history.
Just saw the rpgsite source traffic at my site and wondered what it was about. Couldn't resist a reply to the persona who runs this site.
How are things going?
Quote from: gleichman;414978How are things going?
Oddly.
Quote from: Dan Davenport;414958Well, I don't think you have to be a gamer to enforce RPGnet rules.
Why you've want to is a separate matter. She has friends there who happen to game, which makes sense for someone who wants to hang out there, but running the place? That I've never fully understood.
The idea that a non-gamer would want to listen to a bunch of gamers jabber, even about non game-related junk, is all that seemed odd. But I suppose I can see how over time it could happen if you were the non-gamer friend of a bunch of people and that's the main place they talked online.
When on occasion I do visit RPG.net, I only look at the RPG threads anyway (I never really bother to log in.)
Quote from: Levi Kornelsen;414621Neither, exactly.
I can't discuss anything comfortably when I expect to be called a sack of shit again at any moment (See: Pundit on the volunteer team I'm part of). It may be a weird defense, but there it is. Apologies to you, though.
Honestly Levi, I would have expected you to be a bit more thick-skinned than this. Why would you care what some anonymous guy on the theRPGsite calls you (if it were to happen)? Brother, do you not see by the several posters here, mostly old-timers who remember when you spent more time here and especially your awesome debate thread, who are trying to tell you that many of us, perhaps even most, have enough respect for you that we'd like to see your input more often? (man do I love run-on sentences) I get that we're annoying you with our RPG.net bashing, but really, you can't handle someone poking you with a stick every once in awhile? I'm surprised truly.
Edit: Now that I've read further I see it's because the respect is misplaced.
Quote from: gleichman;414978How are things going?
Other than cross-forum drama, Pundit ego, and a revelation that an RPGnet admin is a non-gamer -
super!
Quote from: Benoist;414738So yeah. It's not a guess, and not unconscious at this point. It's seriously hypocritical on Levi's part to come here, tell us the RPG Site is a dump, that moderating RPGnet is so much more reasonable, that he is so much above the fray he just shrugs everything off as childish, nonsensical, to THEN go on yet another board and incite people to come here and create an entertaining shitstorm for him to watch.
Un-fucking-believable.
Wow, was I fooled.... ah well. Another jack-ass revealed. Big surprise. Appreciate ya pulling down the curtain Benny.
Quote from: jeff37923;414964Just because Levi can encourage cross-forum shenanigans outside of RPGnet does not excuse that. Since when he is at RPGnet he has used his Mod position to punish those who have behaved in a similar manner, I believe it would behoove him to maintain higher standards when he is outside of RPGnet. Otherwise, he is being a hypocrite.
"If you volunteer for RPGnet, you must act as if it's rules apply in other places online."
See... No.
Nor will I enforce RPGnet rules
on RPGnet, based on outside action. It goes both ways; Dan can say bad things of all sorts about said moderation here, however much he breaches the rules there, and even if I
really don't like what I hear, he's safe. The job ends at the door, for me.
Quote from: One Horse Town;414986Other than cross-forum drama, Pundit ego, and a revelation that an RPGnet admin is a non-gamer - super!
Sounds much as it ever was.
PS: What are the hot games these days around here? Any HERO System fans yet?
Quote from: Levi Kornelsen;414794Hm. Given that you don't consider enjoying these kinds of arguments to be a weakness, that follows.
That's... A rather different view than I have. It also explains a fair bit, to me, about why you hate the moderation on RPGnet. I mean, reading ugly fights and even enjoying the trainwreck, but still shutting them down when that's how it works, that's a usual thing for me, and a thing I agree with. And if that kind of thing smells like hypocrisy to you, then vast swathes of what I think are likely going to smell the same.
Dude, do you not get that it's because this shit doesn't really matter? That we're mature enough and comfortable enough with who we are that occasional flamewars or debates on a roleplaying game message board are such small shit that we barely remember that they happened? Speaking for myself, ya know what's important? My 5yo son. My aging parents. Making sure I do a good job for my employer. Making sure I let my girlfriend know how much I appreciate her. THATS important shit. Arguing with Seanchai on theRPGsite? Not so much. Doesn't mean I don't enjoy it. Just means it's a very small thing when ya get down to it. There's nothing wrong with enjoying an argument every now and then if you're comfortable with who ya are and confident in the things that are truly important. Hell, maybe Seanchai'll even chime in and let ya know how little he thinks of my opinions of him too. I'm sure he barely reads them, let alone let them get to him. This is all just entertainment in the end.
Quote from: Levi Kornelsen;414995"If you volunteer for RPGnet, you must act as if it's rules apply in other places online."
See... No.
There is such a thing as ethics and morals, Levi. That's what Wong was talking about when he was referring to "the real you." Not some reference to you being a couch potato or whatnot. You can't act all righteous, not only as a RPGnet moderator, mind you, but on other sites including this one here, saying that it's pathetic how this place is a cesspool of hate and so on, and then, on the other hand, incite people on Story Games to create a shitstorm for you to watch your mouth full of cheetos.
No, mate. That's not how that works. AT ALL.
Quote from: Levi Kornelsen;414995"If you volunteer for RPGnet, you must act as if it's rules apply in other places online."
See... No.
Nor will I enforce RPGnet rules on RPGnet, based on outside action. It goes both ways; Dan can say bad things of all sorts about said moderation here, however much he breaches the rules there, and even if I really don't like what I hear, he's safe. The job ends at the door, for me.
If the job ends at the door for you, then why did you entice Teataine to come here and stir up shit? (http://story-games.com/forums/comments.php?DiscussionID=13287&page=1#Comment_299360) Then post on this site, decrying it as a festering dump of constant fighting and arguement - you are actively participating in creating that environment.
Fuck you, hypocrite. I've lost respect for you.
Quote from: gleichman;414996Sounds much as it ever was.
True enough. Although there's now more of a focus on old school games than there was before. Not really my bag, but i'm in for the long haul.
Many folk here are essentially good folk, who just like a good argument with their cereal. :)
Quote from: Benoist;415001incite people on Story Games to create a shitstorm for you to watch your mouth full of cheetos.
And yet, despite your view of said post, he was not incited. And, when he wasn't, I was very much cool with that.
This is because he actually
understood that post. Which, yes, painted this forum as a purely cruel and awful place (which was dumb, and for which I have apologized), but which wasn't actually an incitement.
I know you want it to be, so that I've done something malicious as well as something stupid. But, no, that's not the case.
Quote from: Levi Kornelsen;414995Nor will I enforce RPGnet rules on RPGnet, based on outside action. It goes both ways; Dan can say bad things of all sorts about said moderation here, however much he breaches the rules there, and even if I really don't like what I hear, he's safe. The job ends at the door, for me.
Thanks, Levi, but I wasn't worried.
Frankly, I'd welcome you countering what I've said if you're inclined, since I've been censored on RPGnet.
Quote from: One Horse Town;415003True enough. Although there's now more of a focus on old school games than there was before. Not really my bag, but i'm in for the long haul.
Ah the OSR, some of what I consider the best people online love it.
I'm with you. I live it when it was new, and the way people are looking at it now is a completely different world from what it was then. But if I considered 4E as my only other option... I might buy into it.
Quote from: gleichman;414996PS: What are the hot games these days around here? Any HERO System fans yet?
Start a thread!
Quote from: Benoist;415001There is such a thing as ethics and morals, Levi. That's what Wong was talking about when he was referring to "the real you." Not some reference to you being a couch potato or whatnot.
This.
Quote from: gleichman;414996Sounds much as it ever was.
PS: What are the hot games these days around here? Any HERO System fans yet?
I can't recall any big threads on it, no. People talk a lot here about the OSR games and 4e, but it's trench warfare in large parts right now.
@Dan: Good to see you around! Sorry to hear about your dust-up over there.
I'm not sure I get being a non-gamer and being an admin on a gaming forum. I'm trying to imagine what motives I would have for being the admin of a forum for a hobby I have zero interest in, say, fly fishing or horticulture. Strange.
Quote from: Dan Davenport;415005Thanks, Levi, but I wasn't worried.
Frankly, I'd welcome you countering what I've said if you're inclined, since I've been censored on RPGnet.
Sadly, my flaming entrance to this thread, and my nasty portrayal of this forum elsewhere, have led to a false and pretty
terrible read of a post I made on Story-Games. Not that this is a
shock; nobody here really has any damn reason to believe me at all.
So, well, it's not likely we could have a discussion without a "Fuck you, man" every third post. Not fun.
Quote from: Levi Kornelsen;415012Sadly, my flaming entrance to this thread, and my nasty portrayal of this forum elsewhere, have led to a false and pretty terrible read of a post I made on Story-Games. Not that this is a shock; nobody here really has any damn reason to believe me at all.
So, well, it's not likely we could have a discussion without a "Fuck you, man" every third post. Not fun.
Come on Levi. You wanted to see a bun fight here not 48 hours ago. The least you can do is satifsy our curiosity.
Quote from: gleichman;415008...OSR ... the way people are looking at it now is a completely different world from what it was then.
Honestly, I think this is truly a large part of the whole thing for a bunch of folks. I know it is for me.
Quote from: Levi Kornelsen;415012Sadly, my flaming entrance to this thread, and my nasty portrayal of this forum elsewhere, have led to a false and pretty terrible read of a post I made on Story-Games. Not that this is a shock; nobody here really has any damn reason to believe me at all.
So, well, it's not likely we could have a discussion without a "Fuck you, man" every third post. Not fun.
What OHT said, plus I honestly think that are still not giving this place a fair shake. I think even now you might be surprised. I could be wrong, it's happened before, but obviously I don't currently think I am.
Quote from: Zachary The First;415011I can't recall any big threads on it, no. People talk a lot here about the OSR games and 4e, but it's trench warfare in large parts right now.
Each site has it character, and it figures that HERO wouldn't have much impact here.
QuoteI'm not sure I get being a non-gamer and being an admin on a gaming forum. I'm trying to imagine what motives I would have for being the admin of a forum for a hobby I have zero interest in, say, fly fishing or horticulture. Strange.
In concept, it would remove conflict of interest (i.e. not caring about something means you don't take sides).
But I'm with you on not understanding why someone would do it on a hobby forum. Unless the attraction is being a member of the moderation cliche- which undermines the original advantage.
Quote from: gleichman;415023... the attraction is being a member of the moderation cliche- which undermines the original advantage.
My money is here.
Quote from: Levi Kornelsen;415012So, well, it's not likely we could have a discussion without a "Fuck you, man" every third post. Not fun.
Not from me. But very well.
I do have to say that Nina not allowing any commentary in my topic ban thread was remarkably cowardly. I'd have liked to have hashed this out there.
Quote from: gleichman;415008Ah the OSR, some of what I consider the best people online love it.
I'm with you. I live it when it was new, and the way people are looking at it now is a completely different world from what it was then.
I often get that sense, but to me it's not a problem. I am not old enough to have lived the truly 'old days' but I currently look at playing 'old school' as a felicitous combination of the good aspects of my early Basic and AD&D campaigns, instinctual familiarity with the relatively simple rules, and what I feel like I've learned from an extra 20 years of playing. "New school" games have given me a lot to go on, too. It's about what's working best for a given group of players at a certain period of time.
But then, my stone age level of mathematical ability precludes me from having good results with many games. For example, HERO. Start a thread, though; not
everyone pursued an ill-advised humanities degree.
Quote from: Sigmund;415019Honestly, I think this is truly a large part of the whole thing for a bunch of folks. I know it is for me.
Interesting idea, a sort of returning to one's youth and doing it right this time perhaps. A fantasy for a fantasy game as it were.
Thanks, that's actually a rather cool insight.
Quote from: Dan Davenport;414922I appreciate that, Kyle. I have to confess, though, that Tangency tended to bring out my combative side more often than I'd like. I guess there's only so many topics a guy can see describing how much his kind sucks before blowing a gasket.
Probably not, although I always say that the right thing to do depends upon the effect you want. I enforce pretty strict rules in #rpgnet chat, and the locals seem to like it that way. If you enjoy cussing at the top of your virtual lungs, though, you probably won't.
The problem I see with the moderation at RPGnet is the fact that it's inconsistent. Just look at the topics on any given day in Tangency slamming anyone to the right of Michael Moore, none of which are considered inflammatory. Then watch what happens when someone dares to post something equivalent from a different perspective. The goal of moderation is peace, not fairness -- essentially, because the Left dominates Tangency, it's mob rule. The Left is the squeaky wheel that gets the grease.
That said, I hate to see Levi dogpiled here. In my experience, he really is a good guy.
Hi Dan.. nice to see you here!
You know, if you hang around, and started posting Reviews here instead of on RPG.net, there would officially be no contest between the two offerings in the relative sites. You and I are probably the two most significant reviewers out there, and if we were on the same site it would be like, the Dream Team for reviews around here.
RPGPundit
Quote from: One Horse Town;415014Come on Levi. You wanted to see a bun fight here not 48 hours ago.
I believe I talked the man out of it, by telling him what that kind of fight would do to him. And that was my hope, and my intent. At the same time, I
would have watched that argument and enjoyed it.
Both those things are true. I don't know if you'll ever get how that can be so, but it is.
Quote from: One Horse Town;415014The least you can do is satifsy our curiosity.
I will tell you this:
Nina does game. Not regularly, no, but she does. She's also someone I have never found to be anything less than warm and pleasant, outside of actually posting in red. I believe she keeps the mod calls cool because it gets results; she's a volunteer doing a job, and it helps. From every interaction I've ever had with her, I consider her a better
person than I am.
That thread that got locked? That was to prevent gravedancing, because Dan didn't deserve that shit.
Dan is one of the best RPG reviewers out there (http://www.rpg.net/reviews/search-review.phtml?reviewerName=Dan%20Davenport), hands down. :hatsoff:
Quote from: Sigmund;415019Honestly, I think this is truly a large part of the whole thing for a bunch of folks. I know it is for me.
Quote from: gleichman;415029Interesting idea, a sort of returning to one's youth and doing it right this time perhaps. A fantasy for a fantasy game as it were.
Thanks, that's actually a rather cool insight.
Makes decent sense to me. I wouldn't necessarily say I was playing D&D "wrong" (at least, past about age 10 or so) but you can learn, have new ideas, enjoy things more being arguably more "grown-up," etc.
May also be that "returning to one's youth" or indulging the "fantasy for a fantasy game" helps form a creative comfort zone to work within. I often feel that way.
Quote from: Imperator;414923Show me proof of the existance of that war. There is no such a ar, because playing D&D 4e doesn't preclude you from playing any other game. I'm running RuneQuest and CoC thse days, but I also run indie games. And it's the same for a lot of people who don't know and don't care about a war that does not exist. You are the one making the assertion that there is a war, the burden of the proof is on you.
Actually, now, Ron Edwards has finally admitted that there was a war, so that old argument is going to have to be rewritten by all you historical revisionists out there.
QuoteThe OSR is another blip on the radar, just as the Forge, RPG.net and this place are. Compared to the RPGA, the OSR is a wart. And then, the RPGA is a small fraction of the total number of gamers out there.
Yes, and? Numbers does not equal influence, necessarily. The vast majority of gamers have never even heard of the OSR, Forge, RPGsite, rpgnet, etc. etc., that's absolutely true. But they also have no influence in what is going on at the design level; that vast majority are purely consumers.
QuoteSo the OSR has exactly zero influence.
Right... which is why the newest edition of D&D has a cover that is an absolute exact copy of a version of D&D that came out almost 30 years ago, right?
Now, I'm not saying that JRients or Raggi or the rest were actually directly responsible for that, or that I was, but that it represents the overall direction that gaming is going in, manifested AND given momentum by things like my writing and the OSR as a movement.
I was wondering where you were days ago, when all the other pundit-haters came along to weep bitter tears and cry about how irrelevant I am again. Geez, man, you're way behind, what happened? Thanks though, I'll consider your bitter tears my delicious cake after the meal.
RPGPundit
Quote from: Levi Kornelsen;415032I will tell you this:
Nina does game. Not regularly, no, but she does.
Really? What games? Seriously, no snark intended -- if she games now, this is a new development. She made it plain in the past that she was
not a gamer. I know she tried one game back at GenCon '05, IIRC, and felt that it was a disaster.
Quote from: Levi Kornelsen;415032She's also someone I have never found to be anything less than warm and pleasant, outside of actually posting in red. I believe she keeps the mod calls cool because it gets results; she's a volunteer doing a job, and it helps. From every interaction I've ever had with her, I consider her a better person than I am.
Having met her in person, I certainly wouldn't argue that she's a good person, even if I emphatically disagree with her interpretations of RPGnet rules.
Quote from: Levi Kornelsen;415032That thread that got locked? That was to prevent gravedancing, dammit, because Dan didn't deserve that shit.
I'd have preferred the chance to defend myself. Given the way things turned out, you'll have to forgive me if I find it hard to believe that the lock was out of kindness.
Quote from: Levi Kornelsen;415032I believe I talked the man out of it, by telling him what that kind of fight would do to him. And that was my hope, and my intent. At the same time, I would have watched that argument and enjoyed it.
So you flip-flop, now? You recognized the facts earlier, but now, you were merely trying to dissuade him from taking on the RPG Site? And you'd still have watched and enjoyed it?
I mean. Wow. You really must be thinking we're morons.
Quote from: Levi Kornelsen;415032she's a volunteer doing a job
Everyone's a volunteer. The only place i see it used as an excuse is at RPGnet.
Quote from: Dan Davenport;414944Heh. That's very kind of you, EBM. Unfortunately, I have plenty of review copies right now for which I've promised reviews on RPGnet, and I'm a man of my word, the opinions of the Hivemind notwithstanding. :)
Am I to assume that, like me, you don't really need to go out asking for review copies, but rather publishers come to you?
Why not tell them about theRPGsite. We have a lot of publishers represented here, including (among the big boys) Columbia Games and Cubicle 7, and publishers and authors are always welcome to have people join in and join the conversations, as long as they can take the heat.
Plus, I'm willing to bet that something much closer to 100% of our members are actual gamers, as opposed to the ever-diminishing minority of members who are actual gamers at rpgnet. We're hardcore, so we're a very good place to put up a Review.
You could start by offering to post the reviews you've committed to here AS WELL as rpgnet (if you must) and then sell them on the idea that reviews here are very fruitful. A site with both the Pundit and Dan Davenport among its reviewers would be the powerhouse of RPG reviews, and I'd be willing to bet that we'd have people joining up here just for the reviews forum.
RPGPundit
Quote from: Dan Davenport;414953Nope, not unless you count trying gaming a handful of times. I think it probably does say a lot about the influence of Tangency that a non-gamer is qualified to be an Admin at RPGnet.
How many of the current modclique are still really gamers, if they ever were?
I know that, at least a few years ago, Levi was gaming regularly, and I have no reason to think he isn't still, but how many others? I'm pretty sure whatever kind of roleplaying Curt was doing, his dungeons weren't the same as what most of us would think of...
RPGPundit
Quote from: Benoist;415038So you flip-flop, now? You recognized the facts earlier, but now, you were merely trying to dissuade him from taking on the RPG Site? And you'd still have watched and enjoyed it?
You know, I don't like Levi's ideas much. He's not just drunk the Kool-Aid, he's taken a bath in it.
But I don't see the crime here after reading the post on the other forum. He expresses the opinion that someone who agrees with him argues well and that he'd enjoy watching him take Pundit apart. So what?
And Pundit would enjoy it as well, he gets to play big shot once again. It's why in his mind this board exists.
While I can well understand how everyone else here doesn't need such a thing taking up board space (if only you could put him on the ignore list, ah wish in one hand and...), I'm afraid it's what you buy into when you post here (and why with very rare exception- I don't).
Quote from: Cole;414954But perhaps something along these lines?
We are not amused, and my family would be less so. I'll be sticking with Bill, thanks.
RPGPundit
Quote from: RPGPundit;415043We are not amused, and my family would be less so. I'll be sticking with Bill, thanks.
RPGPundit
I have to say I can scarcely blame you. Maybe Imperator can adopt her? :)
Quote from: Dan Davenport;415037Really? What games? Seriously, no snark intended -- if she games now, this is a new development. She made it plain in the past that she was not a gamer. I know she tried one game back at GenCon '05, IIRC, and felt that it was a disaster.
Eh. Her personal life is
hers to share, or not; I'm not sure why the first bit was even a thing.
Quote from: Dan Davenport;415037I'd have preferred the chance to defend myself. Given the way things turned out, you'll have to forgive me if I find it hard to believe that the lock was out of kindness.
Man, you're not the only one with frustrations. I do understand yours, for whatever that might be worth.
Quote from: RPGPundit;415030Hi Dan.. nice to see you here!
You know, if you hang around, and started posting Reviews here instead of on RPG.net, there would officially be no contest between the two offerings in the relative sites. You and I are probably the two most significant reviewers out there, and if we were on the same site it would be like, the Dream Team for reviews around here.
RPGPundit
Thanks for the kind (re-)welcome. :)
Quote from: RPGPundit;415040Am I to assume that, like me, you don't really need to go out asking for review copies, but rather publishers come to you?
It's a bit of both, actually.
Quote from: RPGPundit;415030Why not tell them about theRPGsite. We have a lot of publishers represented here, including (among the big boys) Columbia Games and Cubicle 7, and publishers and authors are always welcome to have people join in and join the conversations, as long as they can take the heat.
Plus, I'm willing to bet that something much closer to 100% of our members are actual gamers, as opposed to the ever-diminishing minority of members who are actual gamers at rpgnet. We're hardcore, so we're a very good place to put up a Review.
You could start by offering to post the reviews you've committed to here AS WELL as rpgnet (if you must) and then sell them on the idea that reviews here are very fruitful. A site with both the Pundit and Dan Davenport among its reviewers would be the powerhouse of RPG reviews, and I'd be willing to bet that we'd have people joining up here just for the reviews forum.
RPGPundit
First of all, I'm certainly flattered. :o
And I'll definitely consider your offer. Having had my access to a large swath of RPGnet cut off, I admit that I'm disinclined to continue offering my services as a reviewer there.
(I can't believe I've been writing reviews since before there were forums of any kind there.)
Quote from: gleichman;415042But I don't see the crime here after reading the post on the other forum. He expresses the opinion that someone who agrees with him argues well and that he'd enjoy watching him take Pundit apart. So what?
The bit at the end there, where I tell him that it'll make him into something nasty, and accomplish nothing, that doesn't
register?
Quote from: RPGPundit;415041How many of the current modclique are still really gamers, if they ever were?
I know that, at least a few years ago, Levi was gaming regularly, and I have no reason to think he isn't still, but how many others? I'm pretty sure whatever kind of roleplaying Curt was doing, his dungeons weren't the same as what most of us would think of...
RPGPundit
I think most of them are gamers to some extent, with Real Life getting in the way as it is wont to do for many of them (myself included).
Nina is the only one who's ever described herself as not being a gamer, AFAIK. Now, if Levi says that's no longer the case, I take him at his word.
Quote from: gleichman;415042But I don't see the crime here after reading the post on the other forum. He expresses the opinion that someone who agrees with him argues well and that he'd enjoy watching him take Pundit apart. So what?
There is a serious amount of hypocrisy going on, along with constant rhetorical flip-flopping, and seriously, I'm starting to think it's all in bad faith. The problem comes from mister saying the RPG Site is a cesspool of shit, then going on about bringing people in to create a shitstorm, him enjoying it, how it ties into his strange feeling of superiority, his ethical stance on the subject of anything having to do with comparisons that involve the RPG Site and RPGnet, and anecdotically speaking the fact that he is a mod on RPGnet and thus feels validated in the way the mods handle things there the more there are shitstorms here, on the RPG Site.
If you don't find that objectionable, man, then by all means, I'm just not going to trust anything you're going to post, because you just might say the complete reverse at that other site, wherever.
It's just like that guy coming to you and telling you your girlfriend is a bitch after you had an argument with her, and then inviting one of his buddies to go screw her when you're not looking.
Quote from: Levi Kornelsen;415049The bit at the end there, where I tell him that it'll make him into something nasty, that doesn't register?
Not really. It was just you excusing why you're not doing it and providing fair warning. If anything, it seems more fair on your part. Nothing more than saying "He who fights monsters...".
Quote from: gleichman;414961I never claimed to be anything, and in fact I've always was upfront in stating that I'm unimportant in this hobby. I'm just a GM and player, one of millions. With opinions that may be right or wrong. And either way, it's a small thing because we're talking about small things.
You know I figured you'd show up here. So what is this going to be, round #258 of you coming back only to announce you're "going away forever"?
QuoteBut you, that is a different matter. You wanted to be Kingmaker at least if not King. Better than anyone else on the whole Internet (which is a sick goal if you think about it). But it didn't turn out that way.
Your opinion of my ambitions is higher than my own, which is saying a lot. I'm not a kingmaker, just someone out there defending the right. A Knight at most.
QuoteMearls, who you agree is a Swine owns your pet game. It is he and not you who decided what 4E was.
This is true, but I never expected to decide what 4e was. I won't deny that I was thrown for a loop by what it turned out to be. You recognize that it wasn't Edwards' victory, so you can hardly call that my defeat. It wasn't even about Mearls, I think eventually it'll come out that what really drove 4e more than anything else was horrific decisions at the WoTC corporate level. I do suspect strongly that Mearls gave 4e its "Gamist" micro-flavour that is going to be a major factor in contributing to the comparative rejection of it by the hobby (see Frank Trollman's figures earlier).
That's ok. I'm willing to bet right here that 5e will look nothing like 4e, without going so far as to say they'll get it right; of course, it might not even be Wizards who does a 5e. What I am willing to bet is that 5e will be much closer to the ideals I present than 4e is, because if nothing else the suits can smell which way the wind is blowing.
QuoteYour Hero Dancy turned on you, calling you and yours the past and pointing to your foe as the future.
I think you've failed to read Dancey clearly. He didn't say that Edwards was the future. He said that tabletop RPGs have no future. I believe he's wrong on that, of course. He's brilliant but not always right.
QuoteAnd after all the brown nosing you did for both Dancy and D20. What a shame.
D20 was a huge success, and Ryan Dancey was right about the reasons why. Does that still stick in your craw?
QuoteNow, as much as Edwards- you're a laughing stock across the Internet. For playing the drooling rabid puppy barking. Driven by ego and lacking any the virtues of a good let alone great man. I'd pity you, if you're entire online image wasn't fake.
But remain great in your own mind, completely unaware of the dangers of hurbis and its costs for as long as you can. Even as a online joke, one cannot be as you without tainting your soul.
Wow, ok there Gandalf. I sleep like a baby at night, and if I'm not laughing all the way to the bank, I am laughing as I page through the thousands of dollars worth of gaming books I've been sent by reviewers and thousands and thousands of hits that I've gotten from people reading my blog or participating in this site. As much as it frustrates certain people, I have shitloads to be arrogant about, what with, you know, having done and been successful at absolutely everything I've set out to do in this hobby.
QuoteThat is a lie, and will be a lie as long as 4E D&D remains the top of the gaming world.
I know you have trouble keeping track of reality. But remember? Mearls == Swine == 4E D&D. That is something you've agreed with, I can't imagine why you forgot. Oh wait, yes of course- your ego. It tends to backtrack and spin all the time.
So what, Mearls is Swine, what does that mean? It wasn't ever really Ron Edwards goal to see D&D turned into a Swine game, it was his goal to see D&D destroyed. As it is, while the situation is still evolving, Mearls seems well on track to inadvertently ending up providing the nail in GNS' coffin. Edwards and his ilk always claimed that D&D ought to be nothing more than a "gamist" game, so that all the times they'd ever claimed it was stupid and pointless would now be justifiably true. Mearls seems to have set out to make this so, to make D&D into exactly the type of game that many of the Swine had always claimed it was, and that Edwards always claimed it would be more successful limiting itself to. And it certainly seems like 4e is well on track to showing how disastrously wrong this mentality is, and that making D&D one-third of the game it was will succeed only in losing two-thirds of its players.
QuoteNow 4E may go the way of 2E and be replaced by a better game. For something else we agree on is that the theory that spawned it was flawed. But that will happen due to market forces, not because of you.
I'm a great believer in market forces.
QuoteIn the same way Edwards can't claim anything worthwhile because Mearls has all the credit, you fail as well since the market rules the outcome here- not a online blowhard.
Being proven right about what the market wants is not something I would count as a failure.
QuoteI'll give you therpgsite for what it's worth. It was never a victory condition in the Swine War, but I understand why you tried to make it one- keeping it open is the one thing you do control after all. It's hard work, and you deserve respect for it, for it is easily a far better site than rpgnet.
I mean that honestly, although given what you think of rpgnet- perhaps you'll view this as damning with faint praise. And perhaps it is at that.
You could have handled this so much better. But I understand why you didn't. A good wise post would have had a few heads nodding and a short post count. But that wouldn't do.
You of all people understand that only the most extreme statements draw attention. You of all people understand that the rational man is forgotten online. You of all people know know that only bile attracts comment. You of all people know that the big lie is the best lie.
And because I know you understand and use this knowledge to your own ends- is why I know that you are no friend of the rpg hobby.
And you could have been. If only because it has so few.
Like I said in my blog post, I'm no King Arthur. You don't use chivalry against those who fight with no honour. If I'm a Knight, I'm a Dark Knight.
RPGPundit
Quote from: gleichman;415052Not really. It was just you excusing why you're not doing it and providing fair warning. If anything, it seems more fair on your part. Nothing more than saying "He who fights monsters...".
Fucking hairy hell.
That bit, the "you'll become a monster", was the whole
point. The rest was just supposed to be lead-in. Insulting, yeah, and that was dumb, but not
that.
Quote from: Levi Kornelsen;414995"If you volunteer for RPGnet, you must act as if it's rules apply in other places online."
See... No.
Nor will I enforce RPGnet rules on RPGnet, based on outside action. It goes both ways; Dan can say bad things of all sorts about said moderation here, however much he breaches the rules there, and even if I really don't like what I hear, he's safe. The job ends at the door, for me.
Hmm, well that might be the law for the modclique, I guess. But I distinctly remember a poster who got banned on RPG.net for things said on other sites.
RPGPundit
Quote from: Benoist;415051There is a serious amount of hypocrisy going on,
Hypocrisy is an overused charged, often without merit.
In this case (much as I dislike Levi), he was upfront in that post both about what he's like to see on the emotional level and the poor outcome he expected from a practical PoV.
Hypocrisy doesn't play into it I'm afraid, although I sort of wish it would. As I said, I don't like levi.
Quotealong with constant rhetorical flip-flopping
This he does do, it's an outgrowth the mindset one would need to approve of the gaming theories he does.
It's also something we all do due to the nature of these types of exchanges. They cause one to focus on a single point and you can find yourself taking it too far without considering how it relates to the whole. Then someone gets insulted when they didn't need to, and before you know everyone is acting like Pundit.
Quotehow it ties into his strange feeling of superiority
That's a given with who he is, and why I don't care for him.
Quote, his ethical stance on the subject of anything having to do with comparisons that involve the RPG Site and RPGnet, and anecdotically speaking the fact that he is a mod on RPGnet and thus feels validated in the way the mods handle things there the more there are shitstorms here, on the RPG Site.
Would you expect anything else of him? He is a RPGNet Mod after all, so I can't object to the fact this is his opinion nor deny him the right to express it.
I can say his views on the matter are wrong however and attack it on its merits.
QuoteIt's just like that guy coming to you and telling you your girlfriend is a bitch after you had an argument with her, and then inviting one of his buddies to go screw her when you're not looking.
No, it's nothing like that. He's inviting one of his buddies to have a argument with her.
Now if he was inviting his buddy to hunt down and have sex with Pundit... I wouldn't know what to say.
Quote from: Levi Kornelsen;415032I believe I talked the man out of it, by telling him what that kind of fight would do to him. And that was my hope, and my intent. At the same time, I would have watched that argument and enjoyed it.
If you'd said this about ten pages ago, I might have believed it. Sounds awfully out of left field now, though.
QuoteThat thread that got locked? That was to prevent gravedancing, because Dan didn't deserve that shit.
Oh sure, it was for his own good. Next you're going to say that they censor reference to theRPGsite over there to protect us from trolling attempts, and censor any reference to me because I wouldn't be there to defend myself from personal attacks.
RPGPundit
Quote from: gleichman;415059Would you expect anything else of him?
All argumentation aside, yes, I expected better from Levi. I'm disappointed.
Quote from: gleichman;415042You know, I don't like Levi's ideas much. He's not just drunk the Kool-Aid, he's taken a bath in it.
But I don't see the crime here after reading the post on the other forum. He expresses the opinion that someone who agrees with him argues well and that he'd enjoy watching him take Pundit apart. So what?
And Pundit would enjoy it as well, he gets to play big shot once again. It's why in his mind this board exists.
While I can well understand how everyone else here doesn't need such a thing taking up board space (if only you could put him on the ignore list, ah wish in one hand and...), I'm afraid it's what you buy into when you post here (and why with very rare exception- I don't).
In my case, at least, its not the attitude itself but the double-standard it represents coming from an RPGnet mod, who goes out of his way to tell people what a hellhole of constant apocalyptic contentless flaming this place is, and who would likely ban someone who was trying a similar stunt say, on therpgsite to go stir up something on rpgnet.
RPGPundit
Quote from: Levi Kornelsen;415055Fucking hairy hell.
That bit, the "you'll become a monster", was the whole point. The rest was just supposed to be lead-in. Insulting, yeah, and that was dumb, but not that.
And well that could have been the point, it doesn't mean that you didn't claim that it would be fun to see it in the first place. Which was very human all things considered if not saint like.
Why are you trying to run from it? We alll wish ill to our enemies on some level, even if we'd act to prevent from becoming reality when push comes to shove.
Or are you trying for Saint hood? If so, sorry but you're screwed.
Quote from: RPGPundit;415061If you'd said this about ten pages ago, I might have believed it. Sounds awfully out of left field now, though.
Page 19:
Quote from: Levi Kornelsen;414768I wrote it as a kind of commentary on how twisted this kind of fighting makes us all. - "motivated by puffed-up indignation, raw spite, scorn, and some kind of ideological loyalty" - including me. As an admission that I'm bent enough to enjoy fighting over the Forge-not-Forge stuff, even revel in it, but not so bent that I can't see how it is shitty, and how it brings us all down. He decided not to come partly because he read as I wrote it.
Page 21:
Quote from: Levi Kornelsen;414838My concern, really, is with just how off my judgement of the site has been or become. Discovering you may be on the back lawn when you thought you were in the arena, and told others "that's the arena; it will make you mean and cruel"? Not so funny.
You aren't actually reading me, are you?
Quote from: Benoist;415062All argumentation aside, yes, I expected better from Levi. I'm disappointed.
QFT.
Quote from: Benoist;415062All argumentation aside, yes, I expected better from Levi. I'm disappointed.
I expect people to defend that which they are a part of, and return fire against that which attacks it. Call me crazy.
And considering the bile Pundit launches that way, just about anything Levi could do would be minor in return. Few people could lower themselves so much without getting sick.
Quote from: Dan Davenport;415048First of all, I'm certainly flattered. :o
And I'll definitely consider your offer. Having had my access to a large swath of RPGnet cut off, I admit that I'm disinclined to continue offering my services as a reviewer there.
(I can't believe I've been writing reviews since before there were forums of any kind there.)
Yes, I'd have to write quite a lot of reviews to catch up to your record.
Anyways, why not publish those rpgnet reviews you have left to go on here too? Is there an exclusivity clause or something? Would any publisher seriously say "no" if you said "would you like me to post it at this other forum where another 3300 hardcore gamers hang out and that gets well over 750k hits a month?"
Do the groundwork for a "transition" phase, so that those publishers who send you stuff will get comfortable with the place and knowing it will be a good place for your reviews to be.
RPGPundit
Quote from: gleichman;415067I expect people to defend that which they are a part of, and return fire against that which attacks it. Call me crazy.
OK. That makes me want to plug the fact that I'm part of this site here, the RPG Site. And I'm kind of tired to see people not only bitching that the place is a shithole while it isn't, but bitching about it on say, RPGnet, Story Game, Circus Maximus or whatnot, and then coming in here, with their buddies or not, to create the very shitstorms they are bitching about on other sites, to then leave and come back six months late to trigger another shitstorm and go "See? This place is a shithole!!!"
That infuriates me. Levi's FAR from the only one doing this. And this makes me want to return fire, and defend the RPG Site.
Quote from: RPGPundit;415054
I've given you more than a fake online persona deserves by telling you to your face what my opinion is of your so called 'victory'. You can spin all you wish, but the facts remain.
Going round and round is victory for you no matter what. The joke that you are is actually your goal afterall. So I leave you to it. I can't put you in the ignore list- but I can ignore you.
The only pity in all this, is that you're just disappear when the wheel comes back to you and I'll never know the nature of the payback. But I have complete faith that it's coming.
-Oh, and you can keep your thousands of dollas of stuff. You couldn't pay me to waste the time reading anything you've reviewed.
The thing is, I don't really think that theRPGsite needs defending. All it needs is promoting. The slander against the site that you see the modclique spew about this site is one-half of an overall strategy to minimize theRPGsite's impact on their control over rpgnet, but the second and more important half is trying to limit people's actual attention to it. If you get people coming here spending time at our site, they'll see for themselves exactly what we're like.
Personally, I would much rather people went around showing people a link to our forum, or to conversations on our forum, than going out to other forums with guns ablazing trying to act like suicide bombers. No offense.
RPGPundit
Quote from: Benoist;415071That infuriates me. Levi's FAR from the only one doing this. And this makes me want to return fire, and defend the RPG Site.
Fair enough.
But really, if not for Pundit trashing RPGNet every chance he gets- I doubt the issue would have even come up. By defending theRPGsite- you're defending Pundit and his actions by extension.
I don't know about you- but I'd be more concerned about that then I am about post of Levi's I've read.
Quote from: gleichman;415074I've given you more than a fake online persona deserves by telling you to your face what my opinion is of your so called 'victory'. You can spin all you wish, but the facts remain.
Going round and round on furthera victory for you no matter what. The joke that you are is actually your goal afterall. So I leave you to it. I can't put you in the ignore list- but I can ignore you.
The only pity in all this, is that you're just disappear when the wheel comes back to you and I'll never know the nature of the payback. But I have complete faith that it's coming.
People have been predicting my abject failure for a long time now, Gleichman. You're boring me, your rant is nothing new. Though the buddhist in me chuckles at your esoteric way of putting it.
Quote-Oh, and you can keep your thousands of dollas of stuff. You couldn't pay me to waste the time reading anything you've reviewed.
Oh come now. We both know that you've already looked. You wouldn't be able to resist. At the end of the day, you're all the same. Your type is predictable.
RPGPundit
Quote from: Zachary The First;415033Dan is one of the best RPG reviewers out there (http://www.rpg.net/reviews/search-review.phtml?reviewerName=Dan%20Davenport), hands down. :hatsoff:
Thank you kindly, Zach. :o
Quote from: gleichman;415064Or are you trying for Saint hood? If so, sorry but you're screwed.
When I got here, I was getting ready to laugh at the kind of large flaming argument I'm used to arriving here in the middle of.
When a bunch of people suddenly got calm and reasonable at me, I was kind of baffled. But, y'know, whatever; I ran into the guy I expected to see fighting elsewhere, and had a word with him to let him know what he was getting into.
Then Pseudo dared me to just go look at the forum, fairly and as it actually is, I was a little dismayed, and felt crappy about insulting the place purely based on the huge fights I've been in and the short threads I've been disappointed by.
At the same time, there have been all these comments that I was trying to incite Teataine to come over here for the fight that I, yes, would have enjoyed, but absolutely wanted him to avoid, because it'd end up sucking for him. This, over a post I originally thought had been all clever and shit, while giving a guy good advice about keeping away. And that was a good case on the insults; so I apologized. But incitement? Pfft; I was warning him off; that's silly.
Now, someone who, while he doesn't like me, has been square with me for years,
and has no horse in the race, tells me that, no, the regulars are right, it
really does look like I was trying to get him to come here?
...Bah.
Quote from: Levi Kornelsen;415082Now, someone who, while he doesn't like me, has been square with me for years, and has no horse in the race, tells me that, no, the regulars are right, it really does look like I was trying to get him to come here?
...Bah.
Oh, I didn't say that.
I just say you claimed you'd enjoy it if he did. Different thing completely.
Edit: I actually don't know if you wanted him to or not, it can be read either way and depends more on the target than what you wrote. I can see a certain type of person taking it as a interesting test of both their debate skills and nature. People do enjoy fighting monsters you know.
Quote from: gleichman;415083Oh, I didn't say that.
I just say you claimed you'd enjoy it if he did. Different thing completely.
Okay, so
someone gets what I was trying for. Good enough for me.
EDIT: Hunh. Or... sort of. That's even weirder.
Quote from: gleichman;415077By defending theRPGsite- you're defending Pundit and his actions by extension.
Not only the Pundit, but all of my friends here, and myself. All the users who are here day after day and enjoy this place, exchange ideas, review stuff, play some games, and go on arguing about whatever gaming subjects we can think of, even when we get mad at each other, call each others "cunts" and what not.
This place is not only about the RPG Pundit. It's about all these people too. It's about us.
Quote from: Benoist;415088Not only the Pundit, but all of my friends here, and myself. All the users who are here day after day and enjoy this place, exchange ideas, review stuff, play some games, and go on arguing about whatever gaming subjects we can think of, even when we get mad at each other, call each others "cunts" and what not.
This place is not only about the RPG Pundit. It's about all these people too. It's about us.
Well put. This place would not be what it is if it was all about me.
RPGPundit
Quote from: Benoist;415088This place is not only about the RPG Pundit. It's about all these people too. It's about us.
Nicely said.
But completely wrong I'm afraid. What would you think of a family the maintained the home and safety for the actions of a mass murderer because they liked having a roof over their heads.
RPGPundit is the face of theRPGPundit- you're (all of you) are background noise and enablers.
Quote from: gleichman;415090Nicely said.
But completely wrong I'm afraid. What would you think of a family the maintained the home and safety for the actions of a mass murderer because they liked having a roof over their heads.
RPGPundit is the face of theRPGPundit- you're (all of you) are background noise and enablers.
Your seriously using that as an analogy. Your a bell end!
Quote from: EBM;415091Your seriously using that as an analogy. Your a bell end!
The whole point of an analogy is to make something often confused crystal clear. That requires taking things to something of an extreme at times.
Wow, for hating the RPGSite so much, you still managed 2,400 posts.
Quote from: gleichman;415092The whole point of an analogy is to make something often confused crystal clear. That requires taking things to something of an extreme at times.
Comparing us to people harbouring a mass murderer!
I understand the concept of an analogy but that's out of order even for in here.
Jesus christ it's an rpg forum man. Get a grip!
Quote from: danbuter;415094Wow, for hating the RPGSite so much, you still managed 2,400 posts.
Long time ago for the most part. There were some cool posters back then who are gone now (note- there are still some cool posters here now).
I decided it wasn't worth it in the end however, and it won't be worth it until Pundit is gone (and maybe not even then, his free speech stance is the one positive aspect of his ownership of this site and few people could keep such a policy in place).
Quote from: gleichman;415090But completely wrong I'm afraid.
No mate. You are the ones who enable the bullshit to go on and on by just going on here every six months to bitch at the Pundit and lump us all together at the same occasion, then leave, and keep on bitching about a place you actually don't visit anymore, and don't know anymore, to then bitch some more, only to show up one day to take a huge dump on the site and tell me that I'm an enabler.
So, no. Hell no.
Jesus Christ, man. What the fuck did the Pundit do to you that is still stinging to this day?
Quote from: EBM;415097Comparing us to people harbouring a mass murderer!
I understand the concept of an analogy but that's out of order even for in here.
Jesus christ it's an rpg forum man. Get a grip!
Then change it to harbouring someone who kicks little old ladies crossing the street or strangling kittens if you like.
The concept still holds. Pundit is highly disgusting and is just about as bad as it can get online short of the likes of skinheads- and you're keeping a roof over his head in exchange for having one over yours.
Don't be upset when outsiders note that it reflects badly upon you. Because it does.
Quote from: Benoist;415099No mate. You are the ones who enable the bullshit to go on and on by just going on here every six months to bitch at the Pundit and lump us all together at the same occasion, then leave, and keep on bitching about a place you actually don't visit anymore, and don't know anymore, to then bitch some more, only to show up one day to take a huge dump on the site and tell me that I'm an enabler.
So, no. Hell no.
Jesus Christ, man. What the fuck did the Pundit do to you that is still stinging to this day?
I'm better than he is at what he'd like to do.
RPGPundit
Quote from: Benoist;415099Jesus Christ, man. What the fuck did the Pundit do to you that is still stinging to this day?
Well, it seems today that he called me pathetic. So if you're upset with me being here- take it to Pundit. Online that sort of thing tends to draw a response now and then. Nature of the medium.
.
Gleichman- There is a difference between hyperbole and analogy. Analogies are best used to describe something outside of the audience's normal experience; things like economical principles, cosmological concepts, what-have-you. Comparing someone who types things you don't like about rpgs to a serial killer or kitten-choker is...a bit hyperbolic.
Quote from: gleichman;415100Then change it to harbouring someone who kicks little old ladies crossing the street or strangling kittens if you like.
The concept still holds. Pundit is highly disgusting and is just about as bad as it can get online short of the likes of skinheads- and you're keeping a roof over his head in exchange for having one over yours.
Don't be upset when outsiders note that it reflects badly upon you. Because it does.
Or change it to harbouring someone who let's knobheads come into his home, which he pay's for, invite them to talk freely only to have them bad mouth him in front of other house guests and talk utter shit.
Reality check, I'm not upset at all because IT'S AN RPG FORUM!
Hey here's a radical idea, why not start or post in a thread about a fucking roleplaying game instead of whining like an old woman.
Gleichman, I have no idea who you are, but jumping in here saying we are defending a murderer is a really shitty thing to do.
Quote from: gleichman;415090Nicely said.
But completely wrong I'm afraid. What would you think of a family the maintained the home and safety for the actions of a mass murderer because they liked having a roof over their heads.
RPGPundit is the face of theRPGPundit- you're (all of you) are background noise and enablers.
Get help.
Quote from: Monster Manuel;415103Gleichman- There is a difference between hyperbole and analogy. Analogies are best used to describe something outside of the audience's normal experience; things like economical principles, cosmological concepts, what-have-you. Comparing someone who types things you don't like about rpgs to a serial killer or kitten-choker is...a bit hyperbolic.
It seems that the idea of one person's rep reflecting upon those who stand alongside him is out of this audience's experience. Therefore the reach for something that would maybe (highly unlikely I admit) shock them into considering a new thought.
That fact it was neccessary is really sad if you think about it.
That it's produced denial and no reflection at all is even more sad. People don't like mirrors being held up to themselves, so I expected nothing else. But it's the tought that counts.
I think I've said all there is to be said now. I've completed my LotRO farming now in any case. Anyone who needs to contact me can find me at my blog.
Quote from: gleichman;415102So if you're upset with me being here
I'm not upset at you being here. I certainly wouldn't mind if you stuck around for a while and focused on what's cool about the place rather than go on a crusade against the Pundit.
Quote from: gleichman;415108It seems that the idea of one person's rep reflecting upon those who stand alongside him is out of this audience's experience. Therefore the reach for something that would maybe (highly unlikely I admit) shock them into considering a new thought.
That fact it was neccessary is really sad if you think about it.
That it's produced denial and no reflection at all is even more sad. People don't like mirrors being held up to themselves, so I expected nothing else. But it's the tought that counts.
I think I've said all there is to be said now. I've completed my LotRO farming now in any case. Anyone who needs to contact me can find me at my blog.
Thank you for holding a mirror to our failings, and thus making the internet a safer place for us to raise our kids. I bet if we kicked Pundit out of his own site, property values would skyrocket, I'd be able to sell my Victorian on the corner of this thread and the other one to a nice young couple, and crime would go down. If you've only reached one young thug considering a life of Forum posting here, you've earned a place in the annals of Internet History.
I don't know what we'd do without you.
Sometimes it's easy to forget just how many secret online nerd wars we are all unwitting front line soldiers in.
Quote from: Cole;415117Sometimes it's easy to forget just how many secret online nerd wars we are all unwitting front line soldiers in.
The horror...
Quote from: EBM;415118The horror...
"I have seen a slug, crawing on the edge of a DMG...
...it's been my dream, it's been my nightmare...crawling on the edge of a dungeon master's guide...and living.
The horror...the horror."
Quote from: gleichman;415090Nicely said.
But completely wrong I'm afraid. What would you think of a family the maintained the home and safety for the actions of a mass murderer because they liked having a roof over their heads.
RPGPundit is the face of theRPGPundit- you're (all of you) are background noise and enablers.
That's just massively offensive.
And i can guarantee such a ridiculous comment wouldn't be tolerable
over there.
Quote from: gleichman;415090Nicely said.
But completely wrong I'm afraid. What would you think of a family the maintained the home and safety for the actions of a mass murderer because they liked having a roof over their heads.
RPGPundit is the face of theRPGPundit- you're (all of you) are background noise and enablers.
Your shitty little comment gives me the chance to demonstrate why I love this forum.
Go fuck yourself and the worm you slithered in on, gleichman.
You wouldn't be able to say that on a forum where Free Speech wasn't the owner's main reason for its existence. I am happy to enable the Free Speech ideals promoted by RPGPundit.
Quote from: Levi Kornelsen;415004And yet, despite your view of said post, he was not incited. And, when he wasn't, I was very much cool with that.
This is because he actually understood that post. Which, yes, painted this forum as a purely cruel and awful place (which was dumb, and for which I have apologized), but which wasn't actually an incitement.
I know you want it to be, so that I've done something malicious as well as something stupid. But, no, that's not the case.
You're having a fucking laugh here.
Quote from: Imperator;414873I adjust my behaviour to the rules of the place I am in, and the persons I'm interacting with.
What Levi is saying is that he behaves differently according to the place he is. How is that worth discussing?
It's a bit different, because in one place he's not
adjusting his behaviour, he's
moderating others' behaviour. In your case, you adjust to the existing culture of the various places. In Levi's case, he
helps determine the culture of the place.
It's like the difference between being the worker on the factory floor, and the manager. If you're a worker, you get to say, "well, that's the culture of the place." If you're the manager, you don't get to say that - since
you determine the culture. If you're a journalist, okay, it's the culture. If you're the editor - the culture is
you.
Sure, Levi's not the only one who does it. He can't change everything on his own. But has he tried? Well, yes, he
has tried to change the culture of the place. Not satisfied with banning people for offensive speech, he's now suggested (http://forum.rpg.net/showthread.php?t=545621) banning them for
provoking offensive speech. That is, he wants to formalise the existing unwritten rule, "if we don't like you, you're out."
He's not tried to change the culture of the place except to make it
more restrictive. Far from
adjusting to the existing culture, he's tried to make it a more distilled version of what it already is.
Quote from: Dan DavenportI gotta say, though, I find it especially galling to have been run out of the clubhouse in part by someone who isn't even a gamer.
(Yeah, I went there, Nina. Sorry. It's true.)
Careful, Dan. I was actually banned for that. It was... Keshu? Some name like that. He said, "I don't consider myself a gamer."
In another thread, someone mentioned Monte Cook, he said, "Who's that? Never heard of him."
I replied, "Of course not, only gamers would have heard of Monte Cook."
And that was that, I was permabanned. Saying someone's not a gamer is a
personal attack. So Nina might permaban you now.
Quote from: Zacharay the FirstI'm not sure I get being a non-gamer and being an admin on a gaming forum. I'm trying to imagine what motives I would have for being the admin of a forum for a hobby I have zero interest in, say, fly fishing or horticulture.
Loneliness.
Seriously. I mean, I post on forums a lot more when I'm not gaming, or when I've a few days off work. And I'm hardly unique in that. There are much worse than me. People with no work, or a job which they don't enjoy or doesn't challenge them. People with no family, few friends in real life. And no other hobbies. So their hobby becomes... teh interwebz.
I don't pretend to know Nina's personal affairs. But speaking in general, it's long been apparent that there are a LOT of VERY lonely people on Tangency. Thus... "but we're a community!"
Quote from: thedungeondelver;415122"I have seen a slug, crawing on the edge of a DMG...
...it's been my dream, it's been my nightmare...crawling on the edge of a dungeon master's guide...and living.
The horror...the horror."
:) funny stuff.
Quote from: gleichman;415108It seems that the idea of one person's rep reflecting upon those who stand alongside him is out of this audience's experience. Therefore the reach for something that would maybe (highly unlikely I admit) shock them into considering a new thought.
I think this only holds true to casual observation - like Levi initially did upthread. If you're trying to say that we're all willing little soldiers in Pundit's war, i disagree. If you're trying to say that just by us being here, we're giving him a larger platform he wouldn't otherwise have, well that's harder to dismiss. However, unlike other places on the net where your analogies might hold water, the people under Pundit's roof piss in his breakfast, swear at him when he walks in the room and take lumps out of the plaster when he's not looking.
Quote from: Cole;414954But perhaps something along these lines?
(http://farm5.static.flickr.com/4060/5152952560_71f9f2a67a_m.jpg)
Hilarious :D
Quote from: jeff37923;414964Just because Levi can encourage cross-forum shenanigans outside of RPGnet does not excuse that. Since when he is at RPGnet he has used his Mod position to punish those who have behaved in a similar manner, I believe it would behoove him to maintain higher standards when he is outside of RPGnet. Otherwise, he is being a hypocrite.
Except for the part I didn't read that on Levi's post over there at SG. Again, it can be a misreading on my part because English is not my native language, but what I read is: "You could do it, it could be fun, but it surely would be worthless and stupid."
Quote from: gleichman;415029Interesting idea, a sort of returning to one's youth and doing it right this time perhaps. A fantasy for a fantasy game as it were.
Thanks, that's actually a rather cool insight.
I think that could be an explanation: you can't revive the experience, because a significant part of it was you being young, but you can go back and apply what you know now to get the best of those games and see more clearly their strong points. That is what I'm getting from the OSR, at least.
Quote from: RPGPundit;415035Actually, now, Ron Edwards has finally admitted that there was a war, so that old argument is going to have to be rewritten by all you historical revisionists out there.
Ron Edwards is lying just as you do. He saying that there is a war doesn't make it any truer than when you say it. It's still false.
QuoteBut they also have no influence in what is going on at the design level; that vast majority are purely consumers.
They vote with their wallets. Most important vote, I think. And as they can buy games from any publisher, there seems to be little of a war, as people are not taking sides.
QuoteRight... which is why the newest edition of D&D has a cover that is an absolute exact copy of a version of D&D that came out almost 30 years ago, right?
Now, I'm not saying that JRients or Raggi or the rest were actually directly responsible for that, or that I was, but that it represents the overall direction that gaming is going in, manifested AND given momentum by things like my writing and the OSR as a movement.
Again, it could be that, but they didn't need to do it to get a lot of people switching to 4e, and again, no one knows the direction gaming is taking unless 20 years have passed and you can really get some perspective.
QuoteI was wondering where you were days ago, when all the other pundit-haters came along to weep bitter tears and cry about how irrelevant I am again. Geez, man, you're way behind, what happened? Thanks though, I'll consider your bitter tears my delicious cake after the meal.
I knew you would be happy, glad to oblige. I've been here all the time, actually, and I have posted several times in this and other threads, saying how much fun is all this.:) And I'm having insane amounts of fun with all this drama, because this kind of things never fail to deliver. Given that I know that your online persona is quite fake and that you run this show just for the blog hits and whatnot, I take these things as they are, harmless fun. And your over-the-top histrionic performance is fun. I really thank you for the entertaining effort.
Now, if you get off thinking that I (or any other person) really spend time and energy hating you, suit yourself. Why I would harm myself hating a guy for being an Internet clown is beyond me, but narcissism usually feeds on that and, again, this is all very harmless and changes nothing. So if you want to rail against the Pundit haters, feel free to use me as an example.23
Actually, you show a very selective memory: I agree with you as much (if not more) than I disagree with you. And when I disagree, it is usually on this specific topic, meaning your imaginary war and the amount of influence you wrongly attribute to the Internet scene. Your online persona is a narcissistic clown and I enjoy making fun of that kind of people. I respect your real you, probablly you are a cool guy and we could game together: that is why, for example, I think that spreading your real identity against your wishes is a bad thing to do. Your privacy should be respected. Your online persona can be mocked to hell, for all I care.
Quote from: Cole;415044I have to say I can scarcely blame you. Maybe Imperator can adopt her? :)
I feel honored, and I would definitely use the avatar on special ocasions at least. What the heck, you can email me the pic and I'll use it. Your effort should not be wasted :) My email address is on my profile, I think. If not, I can PM it to you.
Quote from: Kyle Aaron;415152He's not tried to change the culture of the place except to make it more restrictive. Far from adjusting to the existing culture, he's tried to make it a more distilled version of what it already is.
So what? That is, at best, an RPG.net problem, worthy of spending an iota of energy here. It's irrelevant.
I read and post stuff at RPG.net. I browse the RPG forums, and the videogame forum. I never, ever, go to Tangency. Why should I? There's nothing there for me, and I find the place to be a disgusting cesspool. But it is a private cesspool, so their owners are entitled to do whatever they want. I don't like it there, so I don't go there to fight FOR FREEDOM OF SPEECH. There are more interesting things to do, like observing the lint on my pockets.
Quote from: gleichman;415077Fair enough.
But really, if not for Pundit trashing RPGNet every chance he gets- I doubt the issue would have even come up. By defending theRPGsite- you're defending Pundit and his actions by extension.
I don't know about you- but I'd be more concerned about that then I am about post of Levi's I've read.
Really? Man, I'm thinking you're giving all this shit way more weight than it deserves.
Quote from: Levi Kornelsen;415082When I got here, I was getting ready to laugh at the kind of large flaming argument I'm used to arriving here in the middle of.
When a bunch of people suddenly got calm and reasonable at me, I was kind of baffled. But, y'know, whatever; I ran into the guy I expected to see fighting elsewhere, and had a word with him to let him know what he was getting into.
Then Pseudo dared me to just go look at the forum, fairly and as it actually is, I was a little dismayed, and felt crappy about insulting the place purely based on the huge fights I've been in and the short threads I've been disappointed by.
At the same time, there have been all these comments that I was trying to incite Teataine to come over here for the fight that I, yes, would have enjoyed, but absolutely wanted him to avoid, because it'd end up sucking for him. This, over a post I originally thought had been all clever and shit, while giving a guy good advice about keeping away. And that was a good case on the insults; so I apologized. But incitement? Pfft; I was warning him off; that's silly.
Now, someone who, while he doesn't like me, has been square with me for years, and has no horse in the race, tells me that, no, the regulars are right, it really does look like I was trying to get him to come here?
...Bah.
Honestly, based on this (http://www.therpgsite.com/showpost.php?p=414200&postcount=97) post, I believe you, for what that's worth. Meh, Levi isn't nor even has to be a saint. Fuck it, I even get what he's saying about RPG.net vs. here, I wouldn't write and post the shit on FB that I do here. I still think RPG.net's policies are pathetic, and that they would benefit greatly from loosening up a bunch, if not all the way to where we are here. Still, they have their thing, they like their thing, they're perfectly within their rights to do their thing there.
Quote from: gleichman;415090Nicely said.
But completely wrong I'm afraid. What would you think of a family the maintained the home and safety for the actions of a mass murderer because they liked having a roof over their heads.
RPGPundit is the face of theRPGPundit- you're (all of you) are background noise and enablers.
Seriously? Lighten up brother. You're coming across just like the Pundit here, ironically.
Quote from: gleichman;415108It seems that the idea of one person's rep reflecting upon those who stand alongside him is out of this audience's experience. Therefore the reach for something that would maybe (highly unlikely I admit) shock them into considering a new thought.
That fact it was neccessary is really sad if you think about it.
That it's produced denial and no reflection at all is even more sad. People don't like mirrors being held up to themselves, so I expected nothing else. But it's the tought that counts.
I think I've said all there is to be said now. I've completed my LotRO farming now in any case. Anyone who needs to contact me can find me at my blog.
Ah, I'm remembering the old gleichman here. Anyway, yeah, lighten up. Consider this, it may just be you who is wrong rather than everyone else. Something to consider.
Oh, and what lotro server ya on? I got toons on Brandywine and Windfola, fun game.
Quote from: Imperator;415161I think that could be an explanation: you can't revive the experience, because a significant part of it was you being young, but you can go back and apply what you know now to get the best of those games and see more clearly their strong points. That is what I'm getting from the OSR, at least.
Exactly.
Quote from: Pseudoephedrine;414180I don't hate the Forge, but I do think its theory is bad, and pernicious by actively misleading aspiring game designers about what they can do to make their games better. The emphasis on "coherence" as a virtue is empirically untrue when we look at the kinds of RPGs that are most popular, and is theoretically dubious when analysed.
100% agreed.
QuoteFor example, the Riddle of Steel may be very interesting mechanically with its spiritual attributes, but it is nearly unplayable in practice since it relies heavily on tables which require fairly extensive cross-referencing by multiple players near-simultaneously. Without multiple copies of the book, or player-created cheat-sheets, or something like that, the game is incredibly difficult to play and the "fast" combat promised slows to a halt.
In this regard, The Riddle of Steel is like Rolemaster, playing without copies of the damage charts is a pain, but if you photocopy them and give copies to the players, it becomes a breeze. If you're interested, you can find a PDF with the damage charts here (http://www.driftwoodpublishing.com/support/QuickRefDamWeap.pdf).
The thing is, The Riddle of Steel is not much of a forgie game, it's an RPG designed independently of the Forge that Ron Edwards happened to like. Some of the GM advice it gives would be considered heresy by the forgies.
Quote from: Kyle Aaron;415152Far from adjusting to the existing culture, he's tried to make it a more distilled version of what it already is.
And?
I like what RPGnet is. It's not a universal platform for everything I like to do online, but that doesn't really hit me as a serious complaint. Helping refine it at the things it is good at - holding and containing civil conversation of a long list of types - strikes me as a pure good.
The factory floor manager doesn't try to turn his gym into a better factory, nor his factory into a better gym. He tries to turn his factory into a better factory.
You despise the site management, hold a hefty chunk of the posters there in contempt, and aren't willing to go with the way it works. Your call. But don't expect me to agree with those judgements.
Rpg.net is nothing like civil. People who are "in" members are not only allowed, but encouraged to levy really quite atrocious accusations against anyone and everyone who has anything to say about anything. That's why despite being a communist who lets absolutely everyone use any of my writings for absolutely anything, with or without attribution, I nonetheless put my foot down: on rpg.net, and rpg.net alone. My copyrights still apply there, because the people of rpg.net, the moderator staff especially, are douchebags.
My announcement of that was Here. (http://forum.rpg.net/showpost.php?p=10230122&postcount=106) And nothing that any user or operator of rpg.net has done or said since has weakened my resolve on that matter. The sheer unwelcomingness of that place is both astounding and offensive.
-Frank
I was amazed by one moderator's "fingerwagging":
"The person you are talking about (the post criticized something the dude had said/done) is a member of this forum. So, according to the terms of use, you are not allowed to say bad things about him".
What does this mean, uh? That you can "badmouth" anyone who ISN'T a member of their forums - and thus he/she cannot neither answer nor even know about the accusations?
Unreal.
Quote from: Imperator;415161I feel honored, and I would definitely use the avatar on special ocasions at least. What the heck, you can email me the pic and I'll use it. Your effort should not be wasted :) My email address is on my profile, I think. If not, I can PM it to you.
Haha...I would recommend the standard, no pipe, "Queen Elizabeth with a Mustache" slightly upthread, just to avoid confusion :)
Quote from: Cole;415193Haha...I would recommend the standard, no pipe, "Queen Elizabeth with a Mustache" slightly upthread, just to avoid confusion :)
Well said! Please. send it to me.
Quote from: FrankTrollman;415184My announcement of that was Here. (http://forum.rpg.net/showpost.php?p=10230122&postcount=106) And nothing that any user or operator of rpg.net has done or said since has weakened my resolve on that matter. The sheer unwelcomingness of that place is both astounding and offensive.
-Frank
OMG! You're not banned from RPGnet, Frank? I thought you were.
Quote from: Kyle Aaron;415152Careful, Dan. I was actually banned for that. It was... Keshu? Some name like that. He said, "I don't consider myself a gamer."
In another thread, someone mentioned Monte Cook, he said, "Who's that? Never heard of him."
I replied, "Of course not, only gamers would have heard of Monte Cook."
And that was that, I was permabanned. Saying someone's not a gamer is a personal attack. So Nina might permaban you now.
I seriously doubt that, but I'm past caring now. It's not like I'd be missing that much anymore. Most of the folks I'd miss talking to are already #rpgnet regulars, and the rest I can't really chat with on the forums due to the social and rules restrictions in Tangency Open.
And besides, I'm
just immodest enough to think that my banning would cause a minor uproar that would be fun to watch. ;)
Quote from: Reckall;415192I was amazed by one moderator's "fingerwagging":
"The person you are talking about (the post criticized something the dude had said/done) is a member of this forum. So, according to the terms of use, you are not allowed to say bad things about him".
What does this mean, uh? That you can "badmouth" anyone who ISN'T a member of their forums - and thus he/she cannot neither answer nor even know about the accusations?
And yet there's a whole thread devoted to mocking a guy who is a member of the forums, because he said he no longer wanted to be part of the forums.
The basic rule is, you can't badmouth other posters, except when you can, or unless you're Old Geezer.
Quote from: Kyle Aaron;415152Careful, Dan. I was actually banned for that. It was... Keshu? Some name like that. He said, "I don't consider myself a gamer."
keiro; i remember that thread. typical rpg.net bullshit thread :rolleyes:
Quote from: Benoist;415239OMG! You're not banned from RPGnet, Frank? I thought you were.
Nah, I banned myself, by leaving.
I'm not banned from EnWorld either, I just don't ever go there.
-Frank
Quote from: FrankTrollman;415261Nah, I banned myself, by leaving.
I'm not banned from EnWorld either, I just don't ever go there.
-Frank
Yeah. I hear you. I show up on EnWorld from time to time, but IDK, the place is not what it was five years ago.
Quote from: Levi Kornelsen;414863A) RPGnet: I'm here to be reasonable, and engage in reasoned stuff.
People keep claiming for me that I'm reasonable and nice, as if I have only one mood. I think that's complimentary, but it is a pretty one-dimensional slice. I try to be reasonable while I'm there; that's how the site is oriented.
It doesn't matter how you think a site is oriented - it doesn't hurt to be reasonable or even consistent no matter what forum you post on.
Plenty of people on this forum are 'reasonable' - even when they're using the 'F' word as just another fucking adjective.
Yes, I know I'm responding to a post that 17-odd pages back. I just got home after spending close to 24 hours somewhere else.- Ed C.
Quote from: RPGPundit;415069Yes, I'd have to write quite a lot of reviews to catch up to your record.
Anyways, why not publish those rpgnet reviews you have left to go on here too? Is there an exclusivity clause or something? Would any publisher seriously say "no" if you said "would you like me to post it at this other forum where another 3300 hardcore gamers hang out and that gets well over 750k hits a month?"
Do the groundwork for a "transition" phase, so that those publishers who send you stuff will get comfortable with the place and knowing it will be a good place for your reviews to be.
RPGPundit
I'm no Pundit or Davenport, but most publishers I review for seem thrilled when they find out that I hit more than just RPG.net with my reviews (and RPG.net's terms don't prevent cross posting unless the place being cross posted to would infringe upon them posting the reviews).
Just my experience.
Quote from: RPGPundit;415041............... I'm pretty sure whatever kind of roleplaying Curt was doing, his dungeons weren't the same as what most of us would think of...
RPGPundit
This is NOT meant as a defense of Curt in any way - but I do remember from before my banning over there that Curt said he was a a fan of GURPS. I did a friendly posting along the lines of "Hey, good to see another GURPS player on here" Which I think incensed him because I was one of those 'Evil Right-wingers' from his point of view.
(THough I bet he never knew that I'm in favor of gay marriage, yeah that would damage the sterotyped view of me over there) @ Dan Davenport - nice to see you posting over here. Dude, don't be a stranger...hang out and post frequently.
- Ed C.
Quote from: Imperator;415161So what? That is, at best, an RPG.net problem, worthy of spending an iota of energy here. It's irrelevant.
That may be so. But I was responding to your comment that Levi "just adapts to wherever he is." It's not true. At one place he wants everything stifled and quiet and inoffensive, and does his best to make it so - as a mod at rpg.net. At another place, he tries to stir people up to go make drama he can cackle at - as a poster at storygames trying to stir up shit at therpgsite. He's a chickenhawk.
Quote from: LeviI like what RPGnet is. It's not a universal platform for everything I like to do online, but that doesn't really hit me as a serious complaint. Helping refine it at the things it is good at - holding and containing civil conversation of a long list of types - strikes me as a pure good.
Peace is more than the absence of open conflict. Nor is all conflict unproductive and miserable.
rpg.net is not good at civil conversation, according to the thread you yourself started. It's good at mindless fanboyism, leftist circlejerking (left, good, circlejerking, bad), suppressed but still visible hostility, and harbouring grudges for months or years. That's a direct result of the moderation. And you want more of it.
We have little or no moderation of discussion here, and yet we have productive and interesting discussions. How do we manage it? We're not better people than those at rpg.net, we're all just geeks. Notice the absence of Tangency here, we had one but got rid of it, now we just have Pundit's blog-appendange subforum. We stick to talking about game-related stuff and general geekery.
Free speech about rpgs on an rpg forum. It works.
Quote from: ReckallWhat does this mean, uh? That you can "badmouth" anyone who ISN'T a member of their forums - and thus he/she cannot neither answer nor even know about the accusations?
One day Dubya will join rpg.net and they'll have to ban everyone who's ever posted in Tangency. Of course Dubya's not a gamer, but that's got nothing to do with it ;)
Quote from: Kyle Aaron;415353Peace is more than the absence of open conflict. Nor is all conflict unproductive and miserable.
rpg.net is not good at civil conversation, according to the thread you yourself started. It's good at mindless fanboyism, leftist circlejerking (left, good, circlejerking, bad), suppressed but still visible hostility, and harbouring grudges for months or years. That's a direct result of the moderation. And you want more of it.
We have little or no moderation of discussion here, and yet we have productive and interesting discussions. How do we manage it? We're not better people than those at rpg.net, we're all just geeks. Notice the absence of Tangency here, we had one but got rid of it, now we just have Pundit's blog-appendange subforum. We stick to talking about game-related stuff and general geekery.
Very well said; however, I would suggest that RPGnet's approach to moderation
could work if it were applied consistently. Again, mandatory civility works quite well in #rpgnet chat. It depends upon the kind of environment you want.
IMHO, the real problem with RPGnet moderation is that they enforce civility selectively.
No matter what you're doing, some one will find a way to take it all way to seriously......
Quote from: Tommy Brownell;415271I'm no Pundit or Davenport, but most publishers I review for seem thrilled when they find out that I hit more than just RPG.net with my reviews (and RPG.net's terms don't prevent cross posting unless the place being cross posted to would infringe upon them posting the reviews).
Just my experience.
Same thing here. I have the same experience: authors and publishers are usually happy to learn I'm posting my reviews on a variety of boards, some of them they wouldn't have even heard of. I think that's because so much in this hobby relies on word-of-mouth. The more ground you can cover via reviews, the better it is for your product. Makes complete sense to me.
Quote from: Dan Davenport;415355Very well said; however, I would suggest that RPGnet's approach to moderation could work if it were applied consistently. Again, mandatory civility works quite well in #rpgnet chat.
Last time I was there, you did not allow political or religious conversation, except in game-related terms. That makes a big difference. Not many people call each-other cunts over whether they like 1st or 4th edition D&D, the aggression comes out with other more weighty issues.
A chat room's also a bit different from a forum, in its immediacy. Conversations going political/religious, or if people want to use profanity, a mere click on a person's name starts a conversation, while still remaining in the room - it's like taking someone aside at a party. A forum is more like having to stand in a circle to have a conversation with everyone listening in. Sure, we have PM and the rest - but it's not as immediate, you have to await a response.
QuoteIMHO, the real problem with RPGnet moderation is that they enforce civility selectively.
Again, I wouldn't call it civility. It's quite possible to be extremely uncivil and unwelcoming without using a single profanity or saying anything which could be construed as an "attack." You know when you're not welcome. Levi acknolwedged that with his thread on "provocation."
Quote from: Kyle Aaron;415365Last time I was there, you did not allow political or religious conversation, except in game-related terms. That makes a big difference. Not many people call each-other cunts over whether they like 1st or 4th edition D&D, the aggression comes out with other more weighty issues.
A chat room's also a bit different from a forum, in its immediacy. Conversations going political/religious, or if people want to use profanity, a mere click on a person's name starts a conversation, while still remaining in the room - it's like taking someone aside at a party. A forum is more like having to stand in a circle to have a conversation with everyone listening in. Sure, we have PM and the rest - but it's not as immediate, you have to await a response.
You make some good points there.
Quote from: Kyle Aaron;415365Again, I wouldn't call it civility. It's quite possible to be extremely uncivil and unwelcoming without using a single profanity or saying anything which could be construed as an "attack." You know when you're not welcome. Levi acknolwedged that with his thread on "provocation."
Also true, but I still think there's a functional setting this side of "anything goes".
Quote from: Dan Davenport;415367Also true, but I still think there's a functional setting this side of "anything goes".
Sure.
And here, the setting is "free speech
about rpgs." If someone just goes around abusing everyone, or is obnoxiously racist, etc, they tend not to last. If people come just wanting a fight or to spread some Word, they also tend not to last. It's less bannings, and more just getting discouraged and wandering off, like that Teatine or a hundred other Forgers, or mad racists like Dominus Nox, etc. (Correction, Nox was banned, but there have been others who weren't but just couldn't hack it here.)
Quote from: Kyle Aaron;415365Last time I was there, you did not allow political or religious conversation, except in game-related terms. That makes a big difference.
Although, the moderators of #rpgnet will kick you if you talk about gaming too much.
Quote from: Kyle Aaron;415353Notice the absence of Tangency here, we had one but got rid of it,
Be fair, Kyle. We NEVER had anything even remotely like Tangency. What we had was an off-topic forum, where there was rampant discussion of weird geek stuff, tv and movies and comics, and lots and lots of political discussions. But for that to have been like Tangency, we'd have to have had thousands of keetoms threads, threads asking for vibes, threads about "alternative sexuality", threads about people complaining or bragging in an utterly self-absorbed fashion about their personal life, and an immense dose of fashionable causes and politically correct college-liberal mentality.
There are lots of forums with "off-topic" subforums. There are few that have the particular combination of stupidity and awfulness to be seriously compared to rpgnet's Tangency.
RPGPundit
Quote from: danbuter;415106Gleichman, I have no idea who you are, but jumping in here saying we are defending a murderer is a really shitty thing to do.
Gleichman is kind of like the American Settembrini. Just as incoherent, but more baffling because
English is Gleichman's native language.
Quote from: Dan Davenport;415355Very well said; however, I would suggest that RPGnet's approach to moderation could work if it were applied consistently. Again, mandatory civility works quite well in #rpgnet chat. It depends upon the kind of environment you want.
Absolutely. And when do I get my badge back? :)
Hey, you need to head over to the Citadel and sign up. Not a bunch of activity at the moment, but I am looking to change that. Plus, since you are not an admin at tBP anymore (I only just heard about it!), I need someone with experience to help me run the joint. :)
Quote from: Kyle Aaron;415353That may be so. But I was responding to your comment that Levi "just adapts to wherever he is." It's not true. At one place he wants everything stifled and quiet and inoffensive, and does his best to make it so - as a mod at rpg.net. At another place, he tries to stir people up to go make drama he can cackle at - as a poster at storygames trying to stir up shit at therpgsite. He's a chickenhawk.
Again, I didn't read that on Levi's comment, but something more like "It could be fun if you do that, but in the end it would be not worthy the time and energy so don't."
Quote from: Dan Davenport;415367Also true, but I still think there's a functional setting this side of "anything goes".
Welcome, Dan. Nice to see you here.
Well, you make a good point, but I have also found that if you are consistent allowing free speech (and the Pundit definitely has been) you end having a part of stupid worthless flames between the same people, but also end having honest and interesting discussions, without that much passive-agressive sniping, ban-baiting and all that bullshit.
I have no problems with RPG.net, but that is due to me NEVER visiting Tangency and using RPG.net as a board for discussing RPGs. If you limit yourself to that, is an amazing resource, given the sheer amount of people posting there, and some great posters. I've got an enormous value from RPG.net, and I plan to keep on that.
I just don't go to Tangency. I feel that RPG.net would be massively better without it both in technical terms (for example, they could probably have a search function) and in general terms (political discussions tend to turn everuthing to shit), but it's their call to make, not mine. I will keep using it, though I like more the environment here. You don't have to renounce to one place to enjoy the other.
Quote from: Pseudoephedrine;415407Although, the moderators of #rpgnet will kick you if you talk about gaming too much.
Seriously?
Quote from: Pseudoephedrine;415407Although, the moderators of #rpgnet will kick you if you talk about gaming too much.
Still? I'd hoped they were over that, that all the old lonely loser BNGs had wandered off. Oh well. As I said, I've not been there in years.
Quote from: RPGPunditBe fair, Kyle. We NEVER had anything even remotely like Tangency. What we had was an off-topic forum, where there was rampant discussion of weird geek stuff, tv and movies and comics, and lots and lots of political discussions. But for that to have been like Tangency -
That's true. There was a seed there, luckily it was plucked from the ground just as it was sprouting.
Quote from: Pseudoephedrine;415407Although, the moderators of #rpgnet will kick you if you talk about gaming too much.
No, we'll kick you off if you start a monologue that floods the channel rather than having a conversation.
Quote from: Nazgul;415456Seriously?
No, not seriously. Feel free to stop by and discuss RPGs all you want. While we do talk about other things there -- a byproduct of being a chatroom rather than a message board -- RPG discussion is always welcome.
What is
not welcome is rude behavior designed to drown out other conversations by creating a "wall of text," regardless of the subject matter.
Quote from: Nazgul;415456Seriously?
I'm permabanned from there because they kicked me for being the only person talking about RPGs (or talking at all for that matter). When I complained in a post here about it, they permabanned me.
Quote from: Dan Davenport;415470No, we'll kick you off if you start a monologue that floods the channel rather than having a conversation.
Protip: If no one else has said anything for hours, and I write a paragraph or two, it's not ""flooding".
Quote from: Pseudoephedrine;415482Protip: If no one else has said anything for hours, and I write a paragraph or two, it's not ""flooding".
I think we'll have to agree to disagree on how that went down.
In any case, gaming discussion is welcome, and your assertion to the contrary has become something of a running gag.
Quote from: Dan Davenport;415486I think we'll have to agree to disagree on how that went down.
In any case, gaming discussion is welcome, and your assertion to the contrary has become something of a running gag.
I'm unconcerned about what a bunch of people who were crap-flooding the channel with discussions about cake recipes and their emotionally co-dependent cyber-BDSM relationships when they were bothering to post at all, think of me.
Even the few times I've hopped back in, before Cith kicks me, it hasn't been about gaming discussion. It's either been completely quiet or had irrelevant yakking in it.
Quote from: Pseudoephedrine;415493It's either been completely quiet or had irrelevant yakking in it.
Welcome to the internet. While I agree it should be more on target, that seems to be something of a problem with people in general.
Mind you #rpgnet is a terrible place. Sure there are good people who overlook the nasty people who've infested it, but they are few and far between.
One could say the same of RPG.net.
There are many good people on Rpg.net. But they are often shouted down by the loudmouth sorts who fill the place with nastiness.
Quote from: Silverlion;415679Mind you #rpgnet is a terrible place. Sure there are good people who overlook the nasty people who've infested it, but they are few and far between.
When was the last time you were there? It's been a long while, I believe.
Regardless, I'd invite anyone interested to judge for themselves.
Quote from: Dan Davenport;415707When was the last time you were there? It's been a long while, I believe.
Regardless, I'd invite anyone interested to judge for themselves.
A few weeks ago actually, waiting for the Starcluster game to start.
I'm sure Flyingmice has a better opinion of it than I do though, which is why we met there.
Quote from: Tommy Brownell;415271I'm no Pundit or Davenport, but most publishers I review for seem thrilled when they find out that I hit more than just RPG.net with my reviews (and RPG.net's terms don't prevent cross posting unless the place being cross posted to would infringe upon them posting the reviews).
Just my experience.
Oh, very well. I'll do it. :) I'll post my next review in both places.
And Tommy, you're an excellent reviewer yourself.
Quote from: Dan Davenport;415883Oh, very well. I'll do it. :) I'll post my next review in both places.
And Tommy, you're an excellent reviewer yourself.
Hooray! :D
Feel the love! ;)
Cue Elton John...
Levi I gotta say that I'm seriously disappointed after taking in the details that are this thread. I honestly saw you as a bright spot within RPG.nets moderation. You've painted yourself as a authority figure enforcing rules and applying guidelines that better an online community. I was actually going to suggest having you mass cloned for the purpose of a fair moderation staff over there (..at least to begin setting things in the right direction). But after reading the slimy two-faced shit you've tried to pull between the various forums, you just look like this guy...
(http://graphics8.nytimes.com/images/2007/08/27/business/26pre.xlarge1.jpg)
...caught surfing for kiddie porn during his free time.
Now you're just some guy spewing out "company" bullshit without any real belief in what you preach.
Well Damn!
Thats Cold Man
Oh yeah, Welcome New guy.
- Ed C.
Quote from: deMonica;417227I was actually going to suggest having you mass cloned for the purpose of a fair moderation staff over there (..at least to begin setting things in the right direction).
Again, with the "I had you up on a pedestal, man!".
Bloody bizarre. Why would you
do that? Attempting to act appropriately, which is about all I aim for (and which I sometimes miss - even miss hugely, as the thread demonstrates), isn't a moral stance. It's a practical one. It's like, "Miss Manners" is not a column about right and wrong. It's a column about getting along.
Did I fart loudly in the elevator here? Yep, I sure did.
Am I embarrassed? Yep, I sure am.