Quote from: silva;393031Sorry but, not being a native english speaker, I couldnt comprehend the last 2 messages.

Noisms, what do you think would be a nice set of traits for implementing your idea? What about making somthing related to the outer planes´ abstract concepts?

This image and this thread give some ideas in this direction. Eg:

Abyss: Fear? Horror?
Acheron: Warfare?
Arboria: Ecstasy? Exhilariation?
Arcadia: Harmony?  
Baator: Anger? Tyranny?
Beastlands: Instinct? Passion?
Bytopia: Cooperation? Simplicity?
Carceri: Betrayal? Falseness?
Elysium: Self-Knowledge?
Gehenna: Exploitation?
Gray Wastes: Despair? Apaty?
Limbo: Change ?
Mechanus: Stasis ? Logic?
Mount Celestia: Virtue? Self-improvement?
Outlands: Balance?
Pandaemonium: Madness
Ysgard: Heroism ?

I'm not really sure what you mean by trying to link everything to the Planes. I think the core idea about beliefs in Planescape is that they're personal. If you believe something strongly enough, you get a tangible result.

This is why members of factions get actual benefits to saving throws, initiative, etc. etc. I think any Trait system, like the one I'm talking about, has to revolve around personal belief and the factions, not the Planes.

My idea would be for each faction to have three core beliefs which members are expected to subscribe to. As they come to believe in these more strongly, the tangible benefits which accrue would get better and better; conversely as they believe less strongly, those tangible benefits would decrease in value.

Quote from: Bloody Stupid Johnson;393043Following this view, turning it into a game actually about philosophical meaning and belief is spending more thought on it than the actual designers did...they just wanted to make some noises about this and get on with making compelling stories about killing things and taking their stuff.

Whatever TSR's financial motives in publishing the original Planescape setting might have been, I can't see at all where it was just a fast rip-off.

For my money, Planescape still stands as the most innovative campaign setting ever written for D&D, by a wide margin.

Forgotten Realms and Eberron and Greyhawk and Birthright and all the others all had their strengths and charms and flaws, but they also all shared a lot of common DNA. Planescape, for all its own flaws, is definitely the most unique of the bunch.

Also, Planescape does this interesting thing where it turns inward to the original mythology of D&D that accreted over the years. So instead of taking inspiration from outside sources (like Middle Earth, or Conan, or Lankhmar, or Viking myths or whatever), Planescape took inspiration from D&D itself, all the little weird monsters and cosmologies that slowly appeared in various monster manuals and magazines over time.

* * *

I will say that, despite this,  I don't think D&D is actually a very good system for Planescape at all - at least not the version that interests me.

In a sense, I think Planescape left the real heart of D&D behind - the mechanics and the style of play they create - which is maybe why it never found a broader fan-base among D&D players.

Quote from: noisms;393067I think the core idea about beliefs in Planescape is that they're personal. If you believe something strongly enough, you get a tangible result.

I agree with that. Although the idea of attunement to the planes is important, since the raw physical FACT of the planes is so crucial to the setting.

Although the mechanic I'd want  to see for a Planescape game would make these beliefs the central conflict engine. So instead of getting benefits to use in another system (ie - saving throw or attack bonuses), you'd get dice (or cards or points or whatever) directly from your philosophical beliefs and your planar attunement.

So your beliefs would be the primary mechanic of the game.

Like, if I needed my guy to get away from a rampaging slaad, I'd have to draw on my philosophy and my planar attunement, and that's the only way the mechanics would flow.

But, then, I'm no game designer...

Quote from: BWA;393092Whatever TSR's financial motives in publishing the original Planescape setting might have been, I can't see at all where it was just a fast rip-off.

For my money, Planescape still stands as the most innovative campaign setting ever written for D&D, by a wide margin.

Forgotten Realms and Eberron and Greyhawk and Birthright and all the others all had their strengths and charms and flaws, but they also all shared a lot of common DNA. Planescape, for all its own flaws, is definitely the most unique of the bunch.

Also, Planescape does this interesting thing where it turns inward to the original mythology of D&D that accreted over the years. So instead of taking inspiration from outside sources (like Middle Earth, or Conan, or Lankhmar, or Viking myths or whatever), Planescape took inspiration from D&D itself, all the little weird monsters and cosmologies that slowly appeared in various monster manuals and magazines over time.

* * *

I will say that, despite this,  I don't think D&D is actually a very good system for Planescape at all - at least not the version that interests me.

In a sense, I think Planescape left the real heart of D&D behind - the mechanics and the style of play they create - which is maybe why it never found a broader fan-base among D&D players.

Well, I said that when trying to understand Setti's post - so I may be taking him and stuffing him with straw

In my opinion as far as "leaving the heart of D&D behind" goes - I thought Planescape was fairly typical of a 2nd Ed setting - you've got an assumed focus on plotlines and character backstories (and some mechanics for this, e.g. Non Weapon Proficiencies, kits) pasted onto a ruleset thats still mainly built for dungeon crawling (disposable characters, xp mostly for killing and looting, no reroll mechanics but the GM is instead encouraged to 'fudge' in 2e, etc.).

TSR probably came up with the same conclusion - if you look in Dragon magazine back around the 200s, Planescape came out around the same time as their "Amazing Engine" rules-lite system. It was a flop (fairly wonky rules set, IMHO) but I think shows that the designers at TSR there were feeling overwhelmed by the D&D mechanics.

(And as far as uniqueness goes, I don't think its any weirder than Spelljammer...).

Quote(And as far as uniqueness goes, I don't think its any weirder than Spelljammer...).

But saying that is the same as saying.. "As far as bizarreness goes, I dont think Marilyn Manson is any weirder than Lady Gaga."

QuoteI agree with that. Although the idea of attunement to the planes is important, since the raw physical FACT of the planes is so crucial to the setting.

Yep. Further, most planes facilitate survival/transport based on one´s affinity with its concepts: Elysium welcomes virtuous people; Ysgard welcomes courage, etc.

Quote from: BWA;393094I agree with that. Although the idea of attunement to the planes is important, since the raw physical FACT of the planes is so crucial to the setting.

Although the mechanic I'd want  to see for a Planescape game would make these beliefs the central conflict engine. So instead of getting benefits to use in another system (ie - saving throw or attack bonuses), you'd get dice (or cards or points or whatever) directly from your philosophical beliefs and your planar attunement.

So your beliefs would be the primary mechanic of the game.

Like, if I needed my guy to get away from a rampaging slaad, I'd have to draw on my philosophy and my planar attunement, and that's the only way the mechanics would flow.

But, then, I'm no game designer...

I think that's going too far down the story game road for me. Not that I don't think it would be fun... it's just not my cup of tea. I'm wedded to traditional RPG mechanics spaghetti even if I don't mind a sprinkling of indie parmesan on top.

However, I do agree with you that there are more elegant ways of getting bonuses from strong beliefs than just better saving throws etc.

Quote from: silva;393134Yep. Further, most planes facilitate survival/transport based on one´s affinity with its concepts: Elysium welcomes virtuous people; Ysgard welcomes courage, etc.

Of course, it's possible to create subsystems which account for both personal belief and the nature of the Planes. Then we'd both be happy, right?

Quote..the mechanic I'd want to see for a Planescape game would make these beliefs the central conflict engine. So instead of getting benefits to use in another system (ie - saving throw or attack bonuses), you'd get dice (or cards or points or whatever) directly from your philosophical beliefs and your planar attunement.

So your beliefs would be the primary mechanic of the game.

Like, if I needed my guy to get away from a rampaging slaad, I'd have to draw on my philosophy and my planar attunement, and that's the only way the mechanics would flow.

Interesting, but I have difficult in seeing this implemented. Maybe each char could have 3 "Beliefs" with rating/levels, and he could only roll these for all situations. Eg: the guy running away from the Slaad would roll "I believe in Freedom" rather than Agility? Or the athar fighting the cleric would roll "Gods are frauds" rather than Brawling?

It could be a cool system, but at the same time it seems to slide away from the setting´s premises since, canon-wise, the physical atribs dont get nullified or actually substituted by beliefs. But yea, it could be an interesting system.

Quote from: silva;393279Interesting, but I have difficult in seeing this implemented. Maybe each char could have 3 "Beliefs" with rating/levels, and he could only roll these for all situations. Eg: the guy running away from the Slaad would roll "I believe in Freedom" rather than Agility? Or the athar fighting the cleric would roll "Gods are frauds" rather than Brawling?

Hmm. No, that doesn't really sound appealing, does it? Like I said, I'm no game designer.