Even if I love PS, I think its implementation as a game doesn’t match its conceptual ideas very well. I find D&D crunchiness and wargamism kindof out of place in the setting.
So, what about we try to come up with nice gaming premisses that fits the setting ones, preferentially in ways that promote those premises actively, Indie-games style?
I don’t know indie-games very well, but I read about them, and I know a lot of them is about something. So, I think the first step would be to define the about somethings for Planescape - the power of belief? Exploring belief? Exploring realities? Exploring philosophy?
One thing that would be cool to implement in a new system would be the setting´s 3 central premisses: The Rule of Threes; The Unity of Rings and The Center of All. I think the Rule of Threes would be easier to implement than the others - all comes in three: 3 atribs/aspects/stats; 3 drives/beliefs/motivations; 3 part-name chars; 3 -line background; 3 itens from start; etc. Besides that the setting´s idea that Belief Shapes Reality could be given its own mechanic (the Avatar mechanic from Unknown Armies and the Affiliations mechanic from D&D3.5 comes to mind ).
What do you guys think of this idea? :D
Ok, serious question: Did someone dare you to write this here?
Haha.
Anyhow, I don't think Planescape is about belief. Planescape is about adventuring in Sigil and the Outlands. Which are places full of monsters, fantastic (in the Baron Munchausen sense) characters and plots, and extremely unlikely landscapes. Making it about belief or philosophy would make it a lot less interesting.
Quote from: Abyssal MawOk, serious question: Did someone dare you to write this here?
:D
QuoteAnyhow, I don't think Planescape is about belief. Planescape is about adventuring in Sigil and the Outlands. Which are places full of monsters, fantastic (in the Baron Munchausen sense) characters and plots, and extremely unlikely landscapes. Making it about belief or philosophy would make it a lot less interesting.
..and its a perfectly valid and cool point! How a game about exploring awesome and unlikely landscapes would be?
Maybe defining the char stats as exclusively around this, and even bringing alignment to the foreground, so it influences decisively in that exploration? (or even changing the alignments to something like Penndragon´s virtues? This way, the characters could explore the planes geographicaly and metaphoricaly? )
Or alternatively, including a storygame mechanic for letting the players imagine those awesomely unlikely places themselves, Munchausen-style?
It's like you showed up at a frat party with a kick me sign on your back.
That's not me trying to discredit what you are wanting to do. But this is so totally not the place for it.
There's nothing inherently tied to D&D in Planescape. It's just a setting put it with whatever favorite system you want and go on your zany adventures.
Why the fuck not? I mean, Planescape is already the Swinified-setting for the D&D Planes...
RPGpundit
Quote from: RPGPundit;392420Why the fuck not? I mean, Planescape is already the Swinified-setting for the D&D Planes...
RPGpundit
Why do you hate Planescape anyways, Pundit? You've probably covered it at some point, but I didn't see it.
Quote from: silva;392289Even if I love PS, I think its implementation as a game doesn't match its conceptual ideas very well. I find D&D crunchiness and wargamism kindof out of place in the setting.
I played PS using FATE and it was quite good. The aspects allowed people to focus more on the power of beliefs and have that mechanically enhance their actions in the setting.
Quote from: silva;392289I don't know indie-games very well, but I read about them, and I know a lot of them is about something.
WTF? Every RPG is ABOUT something!!
Just because "kill & loot" is what most players do with most games doesn't mean that the RPG didn't present much more in its setting and concept.
"Indie-Games" have ZERO monopoly on "story" or "focus"
Quote from: RPGPundit;392420I mean, Planescape is already the Swinified-setting for the D&D Planes...
All aboard the crazy train! Choo! Choo!
Quote from: Spinachcat;392448All aboard the crazy train! Choo! Choo!
This forum would be 50% less fun without Pundy's tinfoil-hat ranting about Teh Ebul Swine.
And 99% less fun if people other than Settembrini actually bought it.
Quote from: silva;392289Even if I love PS, I think its implementation as a game doesn't match its conceptual ideas very well. I find D&D crunchiness and wargamism kindof out of place in the setting.
So, what about we try to come up with nice gaming premisses that fits the setting ones, preferentially in ways that promote those premises actively, Indie-games style?
Whatchoo talking about Willis?
QuoteI don't know indie-games very well, but I read about them, and I know a lot of them is about something. So, I think the first step would be to define the about somethings for Planescape - the power of belief? Exploring belief? Exploring realities? Exploring philosophy?
One thing that would be cool to implement in a new system would be the setting´s 3 central premisses: The Rule of Threes; The Unity of Rings and The Center of All. I think the Rule of Threes would be easier to implement than the others - all comes in three: 3 atribs/aspects/stats; 3 drives/beliefs/motivations; 3 part-name chars; 3 -line background; 3 itens from start; etc. Besides that the setting´s idea that Belief Shapes Reality could be given its own mechanic (the Avatar mechanic from Unknown Armies and the Affiliations mechanic from D&D3.5 comes to mind ).
What do you guys think of this idea? :D
Well, it's not purely repugnant, but the resemblance to Tri-stat and the explicit mention of Unknown Armies are two things that cool any excitement I had.
I think PS could use a few peripheral rules like the affliation mechanic you mention, at its core, it still need to be heavily trad fantasy. A well written d20 derivative would be best IMO.
Quote from: Abyssal Maw;392291Anyhow, I don't think Planescape is about belief. Planescape is about adventuring in Sigil and the Outlands.
Planescape adventures are about belief. Motivating factors of opposing forces are about belief, conundrums facing the players are about beleifs. A village slipping into hell because it became too evil becomes and obstacle in one adventure. In another, players grapple with the issue of whether a newly created creature born of angelic and demonic essences has a right to exist. And so on.
This does not have to explicitly represent itself as rules-grist. And really, I think it might be better that it doesn't, because if it does, that becomes a handle for metagamers to take it to the metagame level. Which is ultimately bad for what PS is about.
IMO, YMMV, and all that.
The Planewalker's Handbook already had a sort-of story-game-ish mechanic called Belief Points. The idea was, if I remember correctly, you got Belief Points every time your character did something extraordinary in the name of their personal philosophical system. You could then spend Belief Points to gain either re-rolls or automatic successes (can't remember exactly) - the idea being that belief could literally affect reality on the planes.
Planescape is TOTALLY about belief and philosophy. (And, yes, it is also a weird and interesting setting full of cool monsters and fabulous villains).
I started a Lady Blackbird hack for Planescape where each character kad a key tied to their faction. I never finished it; I couldn't think of a good situation, plus not enough gamers I know dig Planescape. (The characters are here (http://www.bearswillattack.com/nerds/PSchar.pdf), if anyone is interested.)
I think a Planescape RPG (whether you want to call it "indie" or not) which had factional beliefs as a central game mechanic, instead of just there as color, would rock.
Quote from: noisms;392527The Planewalker's Handbook already had a sort-of story-game-ish mechanic called Belief Points. The idea was, if I remember correctly, you got Belief Points every time your character did something extraordinary in the name of their personal philosophical system. You could then spend Belief Points to gain either re-rolls or automatic successes (can't remember exactly) - the idea being that belief could literally affect reality on the planes.
I like that. Except it runs into the same problem you get when you tack on a non-standard XP system to D&D. The new system sort of fuels the behavior/gameplay that you want, but the reward is just to be able to do regular D&D stuff better (ie - fighting monsters).
Which is great if you game is about fighting monsters, but not great if your game is supposed to be about philosophical conflict.
QuoteI think a Planescape RPG (whether you want to call it "indie" or not) which had factional beliefs as a central game mechanic, instead of just there as color, would rock.
Thats the spirit! :hatsoff:
QuoteQuoteThe Planewalker's Handbook already had a sort-of story-game-ish mechanic called Belief Points. The idea was, if I remember correctly, you got Belief Points every time your character did something extraordinary in the name of their personal philosophical system. You could then spend Belief Points to gain either re-rolls or automatic successes (can't remember exactly) - the idea being that belief could literally affect reality on the planes.
I like that. Except it runs into the same problem you get when you tack on a non-standard XP system to D&D. The new system sort of fuels the behavior/gameplay that you want, but the reward is just to be able to do regular D&D stuff better (ie - fighting monsters).
True.
I think that, as Caesar Salad said, the
afiliation mechanic from D&D would be more appropriate to model this. It works like this..
- You have a rating in a scale from 1 to 50, representing your belief "progress". Each time you act according to your belief in a decisive way, you gain points in the scale. When your rating reach certain "steps" in the scale (eg: 10, 20, 30) you gain "powers" or benefits according to the belief.
I think its a better representation because it makes you alter reality
only in ways related to your beliefs (thus escaping the nonsense of turning chars better at bashing enemies whatever his beliefs). And, by the way, the scale rating can in fact
decrease, if you violate the behavior espected by your belief. So you can actually
lose your capacity to alter reality if you stop believing. ;)
So its OK to take a traditional game and "swine'afy" it here in the RPG section. But its not OK to discuss a traditional game (Hot War) written by a "Story games" author? Seriously, Pundit this should be moved to other games. Otherwise, you really are a hippocrit.
Quote from: Ronin;392692So its OK to take a traditional game and "swine'afy" it here in the RPG section. But its not OK to discuss a traditional game (Hot War) written by a "Story games" author? Seriously, Pundit this should be moved to other games. Otherwise, you really are a hippocrit.
(http://www.sogeshirts.com/images/shirt%20images/hippocrite%20t-shirt.gif)
:D
Oddly, I feel like Plane Scape is the only setting that lets the D&D leveling mechanic make sense. I always feel like I have to house rule the shit out of D&D to have fun, where as in Plane Scape, I don't have to.
Quote from: Cranewings;392706Oddly, I feel like Plane Scape is the only setting that lets the D&D leveling mechanic make sense. I always feel like I have to house rule the shit out of D&D to have fun, where as in Plane Scape, I don't have to.
I agree with that actually. It's sort of like steps to godhood. The mistake they made was making "the powers" so infinitely powerful that even level 20 wasn't enough.
I would have liked a Basic D&D style mechanic for becoming Immortal. Then you could gather worshipers and eventually become a deity.
While in principle I agree that in D&D, one need not make the powers beyond reach of mortals, in Planescape, the whole "standing in the shadows of gods" feel seems an implicit part of the setting to me.
Quote from: Caesar Slaad;392736While in principle I agree that in D&D, one need not make the powers beyond reach of mortals, in Planescape, the whole "standing in the shadows of gods" feel seems an implicit part of the setting to me.
It's just that they make a point of saying that it is possible to become a deity if you get people worshiping you... while they never give that any mechanical expression. I know it's probably a rare event and not the point of the game necessarily. But I always loved the idea. D&D is all about ambition, really, at the end of the day, and they should have made more of the fact that Planescape is the most ambitious setting of the lot.
Quote from: noisms;392738It's just that they make a point of saying that it is possible to become a deity if you get people worshiping you... while they never give that any mechanical expression. I know it's probably a rare event and not the point of the game necessarily. But I always loved the idea. D&D is all about ambition, really, at the end of the day, and they should have made more of the fact that Planescape is the most ambitious setting of the lot.
I don't think Planescape is so much about ambition. In PS, ambition can get you in trouble. That's a repeated theme I see. :cool:
Yeah, it's possible to become a deity in PS, but in situations where it does happen, it seem serendipitous and decidedly unfair. If you want it in game terms, it seems it would be more in terms of an adventure uncovering some great secret. Having all PCs simultaneously and inevitably progress towards godhood seems more an Exalted feel to me than a PS feel.
Quote from: Caesar Slaad;392740I don't think Planescape is so much about ambition. In PS, ambition can get you in trouble. That's a repeated theme I see. :cool:
Yeah, it's possible to become a deity in PS, but in situations where it does happen, it seem serendipitous and decidedly unfair. If you want it in game terms, it seems it would be more in terms of an adventure uncovering some great secret. Having all PCs simultaneously and inevitably progress towards godhood seems more an Exalted feel to me than a PS feel.
I like to think of Planescape as being about ambition and the risks of ambition. I know this is getting more and more story-gamish by the second, but it always seemed to me like there was a heady mix of a) potential to change the multiverse and b) the multiverse can gobble you up at any second, involved. And that's what made the setting really interesting.
Quote..I know this is getting more and more story-gamish by the second, but it always seemed to me like there was a heady mix of a) potential to change the multiverse..
I agree, but only because differently from other settings, in Planescape this
"potential to change the multiverse" actually functions on a personal/small scale level. So if a boy down the street just had his pet killed but he
refuses to believe in that , the little pet may very well return to life. I find this awesome.
And a nice description (http://www.montecook.com/cgi-bin/page.cgi?arch_lineos39) of the settign by one of its very authors, Monte Cook. It touches lighty some points were discussing here.
I must have been playing the wrong Planescape.
In the version I played, players would go down to Plague-Mort and get into brawls with demons, have chariot races through the streets of Sigil, steal stuff from hags in the Abyss, outwit a group of frost giants and howlers on the plane of Pandemonium, and get psionically seduced by hyper-intelligent spiders. Then you would go back to Sigil and try not to get screwed over by the Dabus or the Lady of Pain. Tons of urban adventure, visits to the elemental planes, getting lost...
Quote from: Abyssal Maw;392770I must have been playing the wrong Planescape.
In the version I played, players would go down to Plague-Mort and get into brawls with demons, have chariot races through the streets of Sigil, steal stuff from hags in the Abyss, outwit a group of frost giants and howlers on the plane of Pandemonium, and get psionically seduced by hyper-intelligent spiders. Then you would go back to Sigil and try not to get screwed over by the Dabus or the Lady of Pain. Tons of urban adventure, visits to the elemental planes, getting lost...
Isn't that the beauty of it? That you can do all those things
and also do pretentious pseudo-intellectual nitwit stuff like we were talking about? The setting had everything!
All this talk is giving me a real hankering to play Planescape again.
Quote from: noisms;392773Isn't that the beauty of it? That you can do all those things and also do pretentious pseudo-intellectual nitwit stuff like we were talking about? The setting had everything!
All this talk is giving me a real hankering to play Planescape again.
It kinda is. My girlfriend has been bugging me to run a Planescape thing too. I'm integrating Spelljammer stuff into my LFR night right night now, but I think it might be cool to do a Pscape thingy soon.
Quote from: noisms;392744I like to think of Planescape as being about ambition and the risks of ambition. I know this is getting more and more story-gamish by the second, but it always seemed to me like there was a heady mix of a) potential to change the multiverse and b) the multiverse can gobble you up at any second, involved. And that's what made the setting really interesting.
I agree. That's what was kind of mind-blowing about Planescape to my high-school brain. It was different categorically from other D&D settings.
So here's where the reflexive disdain/suspicion of theRPGsite.com toward story/indie/etc games stops making sense, to me.
Many people have commented that - for them - the appeal of the setting is this *other* stuff. Yes, you can run a great Planescape game about monster-bashing across the planes, but lots of people obviously respond to the other stuff. Like philosophy, godhood, ambition, factional beliefs, etc.
What's so wrong with an RPG about that stuff? If that's what interests you about the setting, wouldn't a game about that stuff be a good thing?
I say this not to be combative. I'm genuinely curious as to the response.
PS - My ideal Planescape game would be a mix, where my character argued with a planar traveler in a souk about philosophy and later had to out-run a demon hound and then got in a sword-fight with a tiefling assassin ... and the rules of the game accounted for all that stuff, and made it all equally important and/or fun.
Also, while I loved Planescape, I kind of hated Spelljammer. I'm not sure I can adequately explain why.
BWA, be sure to check my explanation of the afiliation/belief system on the last page. It promotes the motto "Belief shapes reality" much better than the Belief system that you criticized, on Planewaler Handbook. ;)
Right, forgot to comment on that.
I think that approach is definitely preferable to the other one. If you act on your belief that, say, each life is a test, and every person has the potential to become a god (Godsmen), then the EFFECT that has on your character should be to make him more or less Godsmen-y, rather than better at picking pockets or fighting.
A list of powers or characteristics or in-game traits/benefits common to your faction, gained or lost as your went up and down the Belief Scale (or whatever) would be very Planescape-y, to me.
(Although a more unified mechanic would be more elegant. I have a weakness for unified mechanics over subsystems. That's just a personal preference, though.)
QuoteA list of powers or characteristics or in-game traits/benefits common to your faction, gained or lost as your went up and down the Belief Scale (or whatever) would be very Planescape-y, to me.
(Although a more unified mechanic would be more elegant. I have a weakness for unified mechanics over subsystems. That's just a personal preference, though.)
I also like unified mechanics better. What would you suggest in this case?
Quote from: BWA;392868Right, forgot to comment on that.
I think that approach is definitely preferable to the other one. If you act on your belief that, say, each life is a test, and every person has the potential to become a god (Godsmen), then the EFFECT that has on your character should be to make him more or less Godsmen-y, rather than better at picking pockets or fighting.
A list of powers or characteristics or in-game traits/benefits common to your faction, gained or lost as your went up and down the Belief Scale (or whatever) would be very Planescape-y, to me.
(Although a more unified mechanic would be more elegant. I have a weakness for unified mechanics over subsystems. That's just a personal preference, though.)
I think there's definitely mileage in Pendragon's Traits/Passions system. Arguably the Pendragon Traits are more about personality than belief, in some respects, but the basic idea is still transferrable.
Noisms, please elaborate.
(I cant see how Pendragon´s trait/passion system could have any use here, except maybe as substitute for alignments).
Haven't given it a great deal of thought, but each character might have a set of Trait-esque "beliefs" according to which faction they belong, which would go up and down according to how that character behaves, and which would enforce or restrict player character action in given situations, as with Pendragon.
So, just off the top of my head, a member of the Bleak Cabal's "beliefs" might be:
Pessimism / Optimism
Chaos / Order
Nihilism / Moral Objectivism
They would then have to start off with (say) 15/5 in all of those beliefs, and, just as in Pendragon, would earn "checks" to see if those beliefs go up or down over the course of play, according to how they played those beliefs. They would also have to roll against their belief scores if they ever wanted to go against the grain - so if a Bleaker was about to do something explicitly in the name of some moral rule or other, he would have to make sure he could do so by rolling against his Nihilism / Moral Objectivism score.
Does that make sense? Ideally there would be some sort of benefit attached to having especially high scores in the beliefs your faction values. So maybe if you managed to get to 16/4 in a certain belief, you would gain some mechanical benefit according to faction, which would get better as you progressed to 17/3, 18/2 etc.
Quote from: BWA;392828So here's where the reflexive disdain/suspicion of theRPGsite.com toward story/indie/etc games stops making sense, to me.
The RPGsite (and story games, for that matter, a site which I am also a member of) is made up on individuals. Some are more extremist here just like some are more extremist there. And I have frequent occasion to argue with both. :cool:
I think the biggest false dichotomy that frequently gets spouted is that story-games or indie RPGs somehow owns the concept of story. My personal perspective is that old school RPGs had story, but the story is a backdrop that creates situations for the PCs to interact with, not a structure to foist players into (as more extremist storygamers would have it). And I believe that the way PS was typically presented (and I presume played), it agrees with my perspective, not the extremist storygamer one.
Quote from: noisms;392936Haven't given it a great deal of thought, but each character might have a set of Trait-esque "beliefs" according to which faction they belong, which would go up and down according to how that character behaves, and which would enforce or restrict player character action in given situations, as with Pendragon.
So, just off the top of my head, a member of the Bleak Cabal's "beliefs" might be:
Pessimism / Optimism
Chaos / Order
Nihilism / Moral Objectivism
They would then have to start off with (say) 15/5 in all of those beliefs, and, just as in Pendragon, would earn "checks" to see if those beliefs go up or down over the course of play, according to how they played those beliefs. They would also have to roll against their belief scores if they ever wanted to go against the grain - so if a Bleaker was about to do something explicitly in the name of some moral rule or other, he would have to make sure he could do so by rolling against his Nihilism / Moral Objectivism score.
That's sort of cool. I would never want to hinge whether or not the PC takes a certain action on a dice roll... they way lies icky gaming IMO.
It would be cool if your ability to shape reality was based on such scores, however.
I would be afraid that might be too tracking heavy, like many "honor" type systems have proven to be. Systems like Bushido's and Oriental Adventure's (1e) seem cool on paper, and even in my younger days I didn't mind teatotaling the events. Nowadays, it just wouldn't fly for me.
Quote from: Caesar Slaad;392938That's sort of cool. I would never want to hinge whether or not the PC takes a certain action on a dice roll... they way lies icky gaming IMO.
It would be cool if your ability to shape reality was based on such scores, however.
I would be afraid that might be too tracking heavy, like many "honor" type systems have proven to be. Systems like Bushido's and Oriental Adventure's (1e) seem cool on paper, and even in my younger days I didn't mind teatotaling the events. Nowadays, it just wouldn't fly for me.
The way its used in Pendragon, it's comparatively rare and easy to track. A bit hard to explain without going into great detail, but trust me - it's not very onerous at all. Much less onerous than even keeping track of hit points, I would say.
As for forcing player action... it only happens in the situation that somebody has 16/4 or higher in a given trait (they usually only have 1 such trait), and only in situations that are exceptional and pertain directly to it. Obviously it's not for everyone but it really works well if players are into it.
Quote from: Caesar Slaad;392938The RPGsite (and story games, for that matter, a site which I am also a member of) is made up on individuals.
Absolutely! Sorry, I didn't mean to sound like an internet zealot. I was referring to some of the comments in this thread that sounded suspicious of non-combat-based mechanics. But no point in focusing on that esp since the real discussion has gotten more interesting.
I never got the chance to play Pendragon, although I sort of know about the traits.
How do they actually work in the game? Does my guy get better or worse at the stuff he wants to do depending on where I am on my trait scale?
Quote from: BWA;392954How do they actually work in the game? Does my guy get better or worse at the stuff he wants to do depending on where I am on my trait scale?
No, which is why some other system would have to be tacked on top.
I would probably use something like the following:
Members of each faction get a small benefit from joining that faction. For instance, Bleakers get a bonus to saving throws of some kind, if I remember correctly - sorry if that's wrong, been ages since I played, but it'll serve as an example.
Let's imagine they get +1 for their saving throw vs. magic as a low level faction member. Now, if one of their beliefs goes from 15/5 to 16/4, this bonus would go to +2. If another belief goes to 17/3, the bonus would go to +3. And so on, reflecting that, as Bleaker comes to believe in his faction's tenets more closely, actual tangible benefits begin to accrue.
Admittedly this is a bit boring and unwieldy, but it's just an example for how it might work in practice. Ideally each faction would have, say, 3 "core" beliefs that its members had to subscribe to (see previous post), and each belief would be linked to a mechanical bonus of some kind. Thus, as each member's beliefs fluctuated over time, so would their various bonuses.
Re: OP 2/10
Honestly, I dont think Pendragon´s personality Trais mechanics have a place in Planescape.
You see, in Pendragon this kind of "behaviour mapping" mechanic works well because it fits the theme of the game - the characters internal struggle for upholding knightly virtues, and the ressonance it has on the setting, etc. like we see in arthurian fiction.
While Planescape´s main themes - at least my interpretation of these, based on my reading of the Core setting and the various some supplements and sources - are dual: 1) The power of belief, and 2) the meaning of the multiverse (the exploration of realities and ideas, so much geographically as metaphorically).
That said, I think Pendragon´s Traits would fit this themes better if used as a measurement of one´s attunements to the planes. So, for eg, the Bleaker from Noisms example could gain advantages and habilities when travelling on planes related to his traits.
IMHO, YMMV, and all that. ;)
Quote from: silva;392959Honestly, I dont think Pendragon´s personality Trais mechanics have a place in Planescape.
You see, in Pendragon this kind of "behaviour mapping" mechanic works well because it fits the theme of the game - the characters internal struggle for upholding knightly virtues, and the ressonance it has on the setting, etc. like we see in arthurian fiction.
While Planescape´s main themes - at least my interpretation of these, based on my reading of the Core setting and the various some supplements and sources - are dual: 1) The power of belief, and 2) the meaning of the multiverse (the exploration of realities and ideas, so much geographically as metaphorically).
That said, I think Pendragon´s Traits would fit this themes better if used as a measurement of one´s attunements to the planes. So, for eg, the Bleaker from Noisms example could gain advantages and habilities when travelling on planes related to his traits.
IMHO, YMMV, and all that. ;)
It's already part of the core setting that members of factions get actual benefits from being in that faction and believing its tenets, though. This just gives that a better and more subtle expression in the mechanics.
If you´d really want to get to the "aboutness" of Planescape, you´d want to to it the "PTA"-way...
You play nearly middle aged third and fourth gen gamewriters in a failing company, run by someone inept but forceful. You feel you are hip, (but really aren´t) and think you need to do something to let the gamerworld know you are hip and deep. The GM is called "DoTorlizzi" and the GM ,revolutionarily different from other RPGs, only has authoring rights for that single NPC, called "the artist".
You must collaborativley push the envelope re: hipness in Fantasy gaming, avoiding the (neo-old-school) table of Mummu-clad-ladypain-doom, that sets budgets and makes firings with full contingency.
You can win solo wins and a collaborative win. Solo wins are as diverse as "write the penultimate module, a module so beloved by the die hard fans, your name becomes a fantasy gaming staple", "get hired by White Wolf" or the lowest solo win: "survive buyout". The collaborative win is the hardest, and you need to be brought to tears by your fellow gamers, each one of you. Only then, when you have injected the deep and thoughtful hipness into your fellow designers AND the market, survived the buyout, you´ll get the big achievement: "Planescape third edition Campaign Setting Sourcebook."
Or if we were feeling particularly innovative we'd play a variant in which we all take on the personas of insipid internet nerds who sit on the sidelines slinging metaphorical fistfuls of mud at people who are having discussions about Planescape which are at least interesting to the participants, in threads on internet bulletin boards which nobody is being forced to read.
In this game, you can't win anything either solo or collaboratively, or indeed contribute anything meaningful to anybody in the world, ever. But you do get to feel slightly better about your own weird outsider existence for a fleeting moment or two.
Sorry but, not being a native english speaker, I couldnt comprehend the last 2 messages.
Noisms, what do you think would be a nice set of traits for implementing your idea? What about making somthing related to the outer planes´ abstract concepts?
This image (http://reicher.neostrada.pl/download/maps/Outlands.jpg) and this thread (http://www.planewalker.com/forum/dual-natures-outer-planes) give some ideas in this direction. Eg:
Abyss: Fear? Horror?
Acheron: Warfare?
Arboria: Ecstasy? Exhilariation?
Arcadia: Harmony?
Baator: Anger? Tyranny?
Beastlands: Instinct? Passion?
Bytopia: Cooperation? Simplicity?
Carceri: Betrayal? Falseness?
Elysium: Self-Knowledge?
Gehenna: Exploitation?
Gray Wastes: Despair? Apaty?
Limbo: Change ?
Mechanus: Stasis ? Logic?
Mount Celestia: Virtue? Self-improvement?
Outlands: Balance?
Pandaemonium: Madness
Ysgard: Heroism ?
Quote from: silva;393031Sorry but, not being a native english speaker, I couldnt comprehend the last 2 messages.
Well, I gather Settembrini is basically suggesting that Planescape is an attempt by a dying gaming company to tap into the fashionable "Storytelling game vibe" of the time (a la White Wolf's stuff) - an attempt to be cool more than anything else.
Following this view, turning it into a game actually about philosophical meaning and belief is spending more thought on it than the actual designers did...they just wanted to make some noises about this and get on with making compelling stories about killing things and taking their stuff.
(Which I don't mind, personally).
Quote from: silva;393031Sorry but, not being a native english speaker, I couldnt comprehend the last 2 messages.
Noisms, what do you think would be a nice set of traits for implementing your idea? What about making somthing related to the outer planes´ abstract concepts?
This image (http://reicher.neostrada.pl/download/maps/Outlands.jpg) and this thread (http://www.planewalker.com/forum/dual-natures-outer-planes) give some ideas in this direction. Eg:
Abyss: Fear? Horror?
Acheron: Warfare?
Arboria: Ecstasy? Exhilariation?
Arcadia: Harmony?
Baator: Anger? Tyranny?
Beastlands: Instinct? Passion?
Bytopia: Cooperation? Simplicity?
Carceri: Betrayal? Falseness?
Elysium: Self-Knowledge?
Gehenna: Exploitation?
Gray Wastes: Despair? Apaty?
Limbo: Change ?
Mechanus: Stasis ? Logic?
Mount Celestia: Virtue? Self-improvement?
Outlands: Balance?
Pandaemonium: Madness
Ysgard: Heroism ?
I'm not really sure what you mean by trying to link everything to the Planes. I think the core idea about beliefs in Planescape is that they're personal. If you believe something strongly enough, you get a tangible result.
This is why members of factions get actual benefits to saving throws, initiative, etc. etc. I think any Trait system, like the one I'm talking about, has to revolve around personal belief and the factions, not the Planes.
My idea would be for each faction to have three core beliefs which members are expected to subscribe to. As they come to believe in these more strongly, the tangible benefits which accrue would get better and better; conversely as they believe less strongly, those tangible benefits would decrease in value.
Quote from: Bloody Stupid Johnson;393043Following this view, turning it into a game actually about philosophical meaning and belief is spending more thought on it than the actual designers did...they just wanted to make some noises about this and get on with making compelling stories about killing things and taking their stuff.
Whatever TSR's financial motives in publishing the original Planescape setting might have been, I can't see at all where it was just a fast rip-off.
For my money, Planescape still stands as the most innovative campaign setting ever written for D&D, by a wide margin.
Forgotten Realms and Eberron and Greyhawk and Birthright and all the others all had their strengths and charms and flaws, but they also all shared a lot of common DNA. Planescape, for all its own flaws, is definitely the most unique of the bunch.
Also, Planescape does this interesting thing where it turns inward to the original mythology of D&D that accreted over the years. So instead of taking inspiration from outside sources (like Middle Earth, or Conan, or Lankhmar, or Viking myths or whatever), Planescape took inspiration from D&D itself, all the little weird monsters and cosmologies that slowly appeared in various monster manuals and magazines over time.
* * *
I will say that, despite this, I don't think D&D is actually a very good system for Planescape at all - at least not the version that interests me.
In a sense, I think Planescape left the real heart of D&D behind - the mechanics and the style of play they create - which is maybe why it never found a broader fan-base among D&D players.
Quote from: noisms;393067I think the core idea about beliefs in Planescape is that they're personal. If you believe something strongly enough, you get a tangible result.
I agree with that. Although the idea of attunement to the planes is important, since the raw physical FACT of the planes is so crucial to the setting.
Although the mechanic I'd want to see for a Planescape game would make these beliefs the central conflict engine. So instead of getting benefits to use in another system (ie - saving throw or attack bonuses), you'd get dice (or cards or points or whatever) directly from your philosophical beliefs and your planar attunement.
So your beliefs would be the primary mechanic of the game.
Like, if I needed my guy to get away from a rampaging slaad, I'd have to draw on my philosophy and my planar attunement, and that's the only way the mechanics would flow.
But, then, I'm no game designer...
Quote from: BWA;393092Whatever TSR's financial motives in publishing the original Planescape setting might have been, I can't see at all where it was just a fast rip-off.
For my money, Planescape still stands as the most innovative campaign setting ever written for D&D, by a wide margin.
Forgotten Realms and Eberron and Greyhawk and Birthright and all the others all had their strengths and charms and flaws, but they also all shared a lot of common DNA. Planescape, for all its own flaws, is definitely the most unique of the bunch.
Also, Planescape does this interesting thing where it turns inward to the original mythology of D&D that accreted over the years. So instead of taking inspiration from outside sources (like Middle Earth, or Conan, or Lankhmar, or Viking myths or whatever), Planescape took inspiration from D&D itself, all the little weird monsters and cosmologies that slowly appeared in various monster manuals and magazines over time.
* * *
I will say that, despite this, I don't think D&D is actually a very good system for Planescape at all - at least not the version that interests me.
In a sense, I think Planescape left the real heart of D&D behind - the mechanics and the style of play they create - which is maybe why it never found a broader fan-base among D&D players.
Well, I said that when trying to understand Setti's post - so I may be taking him and stuffing him with straw :)
In my opinion as far as "leaving the heart of D&D behind" goes - I thought Planescape was fairly typical of a 2nd Ed setting - you've got an assumed focus on plotlines and character backstories (and some mechanics for this, e.g. Non Weapon Proficiencies, kits) pasted onto a ruleset thats still mainly built for dungeon crawling (disposable characters, xp mostly for killing and looting, no reroll mechanics but the GM is instead encouraged to 'fudge' in 2e, etc.).
TSR probably came up with the same conclusion - if you look in Dragon magazine back around the 200s, Planescape came out around the same time as their "Amazing Engine" rules-lite system. It was a flop (fairly wonky rules set, IMHO) but I think shows that the designers at TSR there were feeling overwhelmed by the D&D mechanics.
(And as far as uniqueness goes, I don't think its any weirder than Spelljammer...).
Quote(And as far as uniqueness goes, I don't think its any weirder than Spelljammer...).
But saying that is the same as saying..
"As far as bizarreness goes, I dont think Marilyn Manson is any weirder than Lady Gaga." :D
QuoteI agree with that. Although the idea of attunement to the planes is important, since the raw physical FACT of the planes is so crucial to the setting.
Yep. Further, most planes facilitate survival/transport based on one´s affinity with its concepts: Elysium welcomes virtuous people; Ysgard welcomes courage, etc.
Quote from: BWA;393094I agree with that. Although the idea of attunement to the planes is important, since the raw physical FACT of the planes is so crucial to the setting.
Although the mechanic I'd want to see for a Planescape game would make these beliefs the central conflict engine. So instead of getting benefits to use in another system (ie - saving throw or attack bonuses), you'd get dice (or cards or points or whatever) directly from your philosophical beliefs and your planar attunement.
So your beliefs would be the primary mechanic of the game.
Like, if I needed my guy to get away from a rampaging slaad, I'd have to draw on my philosophy and my planar attunement, and that's the only way the mechanics would flow.
But, then, I'm no game designer...
I think that's going too far down the story game road for me. Not that I don't think it would be fun... it's just not my cup of tea. I'm wedded to traditional RPG mechanics spaghetti even if I don't mind a sprinkling of indie parmesan on top.
However, I do agree with you that there are more elegant ways of getting bonuses from strong beliefs than just better saving throws etc.
Quote from: silva;393134Yep. Further, most planes facilitate survival/transport based on one´s affinity with its concepts: Elysium welcomes virtuous people; Ysgard welcomes courage, etc.
Of course, it's possible to create subsystems which account for both personal belief and the nature of the Planes. Then we'd both be happy, right? ;)
Quote..the mechanic I'd want to see for a Planescape game would make these beliefs the central conflict engine. So instead of getting benefits to use in another system (ie - saving throw or attack bonuses), you'd get dice (or cards or points or whatever) directly from your philosophical beliefs and your planar attunement.
So your beliefs would be the primary mechanic of the game.
Like, if I needed my guy to get away from a rampaging slaad, I'd have to draw on my philosophy and my planar attunement, and that's the only way the mechanics would flow.
Interesting, but I have difficult in seeing this implemented. Maybe each char could have 3 "Beliefs" with rating/levels, and he could only roll these for all situations. Eg: the guy running away from the Slaad would roll "I believe in Freedom" rather than Agility? Or the athar fighting the cleric would roll "Gods are frauds" rather than Brawling?
It could be a cool system, but at the same time it seems to slide away from the setting´s premises since, canon-wise, the physical atribs dont get nullified or actually substituted by beliefs. But yea, it could be an interesting system.
Quote from: silva;393279Interesting, but I have difficult in seeing this implemented. Maybe each char could have 3 "Beliefs" with rating/levels, and he could only roll these for all situations. Eg: the guy running away from the Slaad would roll "I believe in Freedom" rather than Agility? Or the athar fighting the cleric would roll "Gods are frauds" rather than Brawling?
Hmm. No, that doesn't really sound appealing, does it? Like I said, I'm no game designer.