30 bucks is a nice price I have to admit.  The BIG question is if they can get the damned game where people will see it.

If its just selling in the RPG market?

ITS DOOMED.

It needs to be in Wal Mart and Target right next to the videogames.  In Gamestop.

The tabletop RPG market didn't need a new sword and sorcery game 20 years ago.  Its only gotten more glutted since.

Especially since the amount of people that will play an RPG without D&D on the cover is REALLY DAMNED small.

If they were smart, big retail chains would be their primary market and they should pretty much ignore the comic and hobby shop trade outside of just making it available to Alliance and Diamond and maybe a little bit of push at Gen Con.

Quote from: Peregrin;347720DA has no "system" to convert to tabletop since it was designed from the get-go to be a PC game, not a PC game emulating a tabletop game, and 90% of all the crap is dealt with under the hood. It's better for it, IMO, as most CRPGs suffer more than they should for trying to be faithful to emulating rulesets that aren't supposed to just be plugged into a computer.

Going with a more tabletop styled core system, either original like Fallout did or licensed, would've produced one that is simpler and less obtuse, both to maintain, and for the player to learn and understand fully.

One of the biggest complaints I've seen from players about the game is that the system deliberately obscures the actual workings of the system to a ridiculous degree, making it very hard to know what a given thing is actually going to do and how effective it will be until you've already wasted the points on it.  

Dragon Age is a perfect example of why sticking to a tabletop system is a good idea for everyone involved.  It's worked for some of the best RPGs ever made, so I don't see where this ridiculous assertion that RPGs are no good for video games even comes from, frankly.  The only reason DA doesn't use a tabletop system, is because Bioware refuses to work with licensed properties, and most of their staff at this point have more experience with WoW than D&D.

QuoteAs for the AI, it's behavior is programmable down to the T by the player, so I don't know what you're getting at there.  But this is a whole 'nother argument, so I'll let it be.

I was talking about the NPC enemies.  But having to program my own companion AI because the built-in one is a rubbish is not a feature in my book.

QuoteEither way, Green Ronin has come out and stated that it'd be impossible to convert the PC game "system" over to tabletop since its inner workings are way to complex to put in a form people could deal with at a table.   Regardless of how you feel about the franchise, I think the tabletop version could help bring some fans into the hobby if it's dealt with correctly.

It could, if they market it right, and completely re-layout that piece of shit so it's actually readable.  

Quote from: The_Shadow;347723Like others I applaud what GR is attempting. But there's something very underwhelming about the previews. It screams bland, bland, bland to me. While I'm not the target audience, I wonder if this game has any secret sauce to bring in the young 'uns.

It is bland.  DA is probably the most overrated release in a decade.  It is absolute generica and cliche through and through, not an original idea to be had in the whole thing.  Even the system is just a rehash of the KOTOR layout but with more obtuse, MMO-inspired math.  

Frankly, the Dark Eye: Drakensang game had more of a unique flavor to me, and it certainly felt like a step backwards from Mass Effect from a story and setting perspective.  Bioware never should've stopped making D&D games, at least then they'd have an excuse for being so completely uncreative.

The biggest problem is that Dragon Age the video game has already gone past it's peak retail period.  It's had it's price already cut by $10 (at least in Canada) and is starting to show up on the used shelves.  The reviews for the game itself were not even remotely as high as they were hoping and the buz for the game has largely petered out.

Green Ronin was counting on Dragon Age being a hugely popular game that lived on in memories like Baldurs Gate, but it won't be.  The game just isn't that good.  They could have tried to launch the PnP closer to Dragon Age's launch date, but at that point they were expecting people to shell out $60 for the video game and then another $30 for a PnP.  Which is unlikely.  So they have to wait until after launch and go in with the crowd that just can't get enough of the world of Fereldon and want to turn their joyous video game experience into a PnP experience.  

But since the PnP isn't going to be showing up in Game Stop beside the video game they are now left targeting an Audience that loves Dragon Age and loves Rules Like RPG's, which in the grand scheme of things is probably relatively small, but likely still big enough for them to do ok.  What they have completely missed out on are ravenous fans of Dragon Age that are new to the PnP experience.  That would have been the key target audience to sell a million copies to.  But those people won't even see this game come up as a blip on their radar.

Well, as I was saying wayyyy back when this whole deali-o was announced, they should have found a way to get it on the shelves next to the game itself, if not packaged with it (nod to Kryyst). To be honest, I was surprised it didn't even come out at the same time - as stated before, the buzz is dying down already, and GR missed out on those coat-tails, small though they might have been. If they ONLY have it distributed on-line and in RPG shops, then it will die a quiet death - the only hope for big numbers is to get it in Gamestop, Target, etc.

So in short, what THEY said.

I'm interested to play the game.  I'm also glad they're making a system specifically for tabletop gaming, as opposed to trying to use the computer game ruleset; that way lies madness. (case in point: the original Fallout pen & paper rules that were more complicated than they needed to be.)

Quote from: J Arcane;347761Going with a more tabletop styled core system, either original like Fallout did or licensed, would've produced one that is simpler and less obtuse, both to maintain, and for the player to learn and understand fully.

One of the biggest complaints I've seen from players about the game is that the system deliberately obscures the actual workings of the system to a ridiculous degree, making it very hard to know what a given thing is actually going to do and how effective it will be until you've already wasted the points on it.  

Dragon Age is a perfect example of why sticking to a tabletop system is a good idea for everyone involved.  It's worked for some of the best RPGs ever made, so I don't see where this ridiculous assertion that RPGs are no good for video games even comes from, frankly.  The only reason DA doesn't use a tabletop system, is because Bioware refuses to work with licensed properties, and most of their staff at this point have more experience with WoW than D&D.

Dunno, I've heard the opposite from people who don't play tabletop.  They like that it draws from other PC games/MMO skill refresh/heal style than classic RPGs.  Though I will agree it can be fuzzy in places unless you really dig through the manual/in-game tutorials to see how distribution of your points affects your overall stats.  I don't think it feels like an MMO, because it's way too tactical/stop-and-go, though, even if the way skills/magic works is similar to WoW.

When I was talking about dropping the tabletop rulesets, I meant about how some conventions that just don't work are converted over anyway (resting in NWN was tedious and didn't add anything to the experience).  It's possible to keep a more "open" working ruleset and drop a lot of the tabletop conventions that make dealing with things in real-time more of a problem (Fallout 3 and Mass Effect managed this fairly well).

'Course, if I had my way, they'd still be making isometric turn-based RPGs like classic Fallout...

Regardless of all that, I think 3d6 for the boxed set is a smart choice.  "Familiar" dice that everyone has used before, nice bell curve, and you only ever need 3 dice.  The system as it stands may not please any veterans, but for someone who's never played tabletop it's a nice easy transition into the hobby.

Quote from: Shazbot79;347675But all Dragonage has to offer as a P&P rpg is the same old oft-regurgitated Tolkien crap that's been holding fantasy games back for years.

I need a little more than just Humans/Dwarves/Elves and Fighters/Rogues/Mages.

Oh, but this time the elves are slaves and the dwarves are political like...

Personally, I haven't decided if I'm getting Dragon Age or not and basically for this reason. I'm enjoying the game. Don't really need yet another fantasy RPG.

Seanchai

Quote from: RPGPundit;347722You know, I'm no great fan personally of Pramas & Co.; but I hope and pray that this is what would happen. Based on everything I've heard, this is the first case where someone is actually trying to do what I said they should do for YEARS: go back for inspiration to the one model of presentation, design, and marketing that blew away all the others: The Basic D&D box set.

And when it doesn't sell as well as the folks making these arguments say it should, maybe they'll shut the fuck up about introductory boxed sets. (Or, as I invited you to do, Pundit, prove us wrong by creating your own.)

Of course, they won't shut up as these arguments are based on nostalgia and actual facts just get in the way of the remembering, wishing, hoping, pining...

Seanchai

Quote from: ggroy;347728Wonder why exactly the basic D&D box set model was abandoned around 15 years ago.

Because boxed sets were expensive to produce and who was going to buy a Basic set? Not the folks who were playing AD&D and who already owned one.

Seanchai

Quote from: kryyst;347767But since the PnP isn't going to be showing up in Game Stop beside the video game...

I wish it would. Then maybe some folks would get it.

There's the RPG sitting next to the CRPG. At this point, they're basically the same price. So which is going to be purchased?

Well, a mom, dad, or other adult might accidentally pick up the RPG, thinking it was the computer game. That wouldn't end well, of course.

Would a knowledgeable non-RPG gamer pick it up? Doubtful. They're both the same price, but one requires work. It requires getting together a bunch of friends. It has a bunch of alien concepts. And the price of admission for the RPG is forgoing the purchase of a CRPG, which is more of a known quantity and sure thing.

Seanchai

Quote from: Seanchai;347797I wish it would. Then maybe some folks would get it.

There's the RPG sitting next to the CRPG. At this point, they're basically the same price. So which is going to be purchased?

Well, a mom, dad, or other adult might accidentally pick up the RPG, thinking it was the computer game. That wouldn't end well, of course.

Would a knowledgeable non-RPG gamer pick it up? Doubtful. They're both the same price, but one requires work. It requires getting together a bunch of friends. It has a bunch of alien concepts. And the price of admission for the RPG is forgoing the purchase of a CRPG, which is more of a known quantity and sure thing.

Seanchai

What they should have done is actually released them as a bundle at launch.

CRPG = $60
PnP = $30
Bundle = $70

Seems like a good way to get the PnP into the market place and to a potentially or hesitant audience.  I can say that right now I have no intention of buying the PnP.  However had it been available at launch in that kind of a scenario I would have.

Now granted Two Worlds tried something similar with their deluxe edition which came with a Two Worlds PnP.  However it was just a small book in the box.  Looked like a discount RPG and was marketed with about the same intelligence as the bonus mini-comic you may get with a DVD.

Quote from: Seanchai;347797Would a knowledgeable non-RPG gamer pick it up? Doubtful. They're both the same price, but one requires work. It requires getting together a bunch of friends. It has a bunch of alien concepts. And the price of admission for the RPG is forgoing the purchase of a CRPG, which is more of a known quantity and sure thing.

Seanchai

You'd be surprised at how popular boxed/board games are at colleges.  For those of us who haven't sold our souls to MMOs, we need some type of game to pass the time that also allows the super-socialization demanded by a college atmosphere, and board/tabletop games fit the bill perfectly.

Hell, this chick I know from school who doesn't know anything about tabletop games bought Arkham Horror cause "it looked cool, and we can play it at so-and-so's apartment".

QuoteWhat they should have done is actually released them as a bundle at launch.

CRPG = $60
PnP = $30
Bundle = $70

Seems like a good way to get the PnP into the market place and to a potentially or hesitant audience. I can say that right now I have no intention of buying the PnP. However had it been available at launch in that kind of a scenario I would have.

Yeah.  I'd like this to work out, but as I said before, I doubt EA or Bioware are going to spend any effort promoting this thing.

You know, I just might put both on my Christmas list. I think the PC game looks awesome and I'm always looking to check out new PnP settings/systems.

Just for the record, my GM loves Dragon Age on his computer, and one of my RQ players told me on no uncertain terms that I am buying the box set as soon as it is released.

Personally: I don't quite get why they needed to add two more stats, I think that's an unnecessary complication. Likewise I'm rather annoyed at the 'race' breakdown. Again: being able to play an orlesian or a trevinter or an antivan is an appeal, as is the largely seperate selection of race.   I find that a remarkably annoying 'step back' in design philosophy.  The seven starting 'races' don't sound particularly broad.  

Still, I like the 3d6 mechanic and the rest, and if I ever found a 'perfect' game I'd probably drop dead on the spot from shock.

Quote from: Peregrin;347805You'd be surprised at how popular boxed/board games are at colleges.

How much work does a board game require outside of the game? You can just pick it up, set out the board, and play, right?

Seanchai