TheRPGSite

Green Ronin have posted some PDFs of pages from their Dragon Age rpg. You can find them, and a designer's diary, here:

http://greenronin.com/dragon_age/

I think this is a fascinating project - a high profile publisher doing what is very much an old school rpg, and one to boot that is clearly aimed at getting new players to try tabletop rpgs.

I've been looking forward to this game for awhile.  The PDF previews look good, but I'm waiting for the box set.

  Hopefully the game is as rules lite as they claim.

I like the look of the video game. I dunno if I'm all that interested in the pencil & paper interpretation of it.

Quote from: Glazer;347526I think this is a fascinating project - a high profile publisher doing what is very much an old school rpg, and one to boot that is clearly aimed at getting new players to try tabletop rpgs.

I hope it works. And, hopefully some other game follow suit then. We need new blood in the hobby.

While I wouldn't want to play a PnP RPG that is a direct translation of the CRPG.  The PnP seems to be taking the core concepts but flushing them out.  The race/class choices are still limiting but they more flexible nature of the design offers freedoms not seen in the CPRG.   I think as a whole the product seems solid so far.  Still not sure it's for me.  But it looks good.

Although I'm not in the market for yet another FRPG, this product looks promising.  A rules light-ish, 'basic set' (levels 1-5) FRPG with decent distribution is a good move, IMO, for both GR and the hobby as a whole.  I wish them luck.

Yes, I also wish them luck.

RPGPundit

Quote from: ColonelHardisson;347551I like the look of the video game. I dunno if I'm all that interested in the pencil & paper interpretation of it.

Interestingly, many of the comments (some of them my own...) regarding Dragon Age was the that the best part of the game was the richness of the setting.  In essence, as long as the rules are functional and appropriate, and don't try some wonky nonsense about 'capturing the video game experience' or some such, I am reasonably excited about the possibilities.


What this needs more than an actual 'game book' is a 'setting book' that is supportable by any good existing fantasy RPG (er... not 4E D&D, please... I'd take world of Synnibar over that...).

It would be cool to adventure in the decaying Trevinter Empire or travel with an Orlesian bard, or visit the Chasid barbarians in southern Ferelden...

Which is what a game should do: Give you a world you WANT to explore and interact with.  Only accountants can love a game for its elegant rules.

I can think of over 2,000 reasons I want this book to sell well.

Hopefully this will not be another "fantasy heartbreaker", for lack of a better term.

Quote from: Spike;347596(er... not 4E D&D, please... I'd take world of Synnibar over that...)

I guess it's personal preference, but I don't see that 4e would be a bad fit for it, from what I've seen. But hell, I wouldn't mind seeing a HackMaster-based game for it...

Indeed: Personal bias.  I never claim otherwise.  Still, there are also logical and rational reasons to avoid 4E, not the least of which is that Hasbro/WOTC tend to be all 'include all of our cool races and monsters in your setting regardless of how appropriate they are'... and that would pretty much break the setting.

And even if they didn't, some jackhole with a hard-on for... oh, I dunno... teifling ninja-stripper babes who are also warlocks would insist that playing one is legal and valid, despite being totally at odds with the setting.

Well, maybe not ninja-stripper babes.  Apparently Orleasians and Antivans are pretty open minded and inclined to sneaky assassin types.

I want it, but I'm turned off that its 4 box sets of 5 player levels each milking it for all its worth.

Quote from: BloodyCactus;347649I want it, but I'm turned off that its 4 box sets of 5 player levels each milking it for all its worth.

Looks like the marketing model for the old D&D Mentzer box sets from the 1980's

- basic
- expert
- companion
- master
- immortal

Quote from: ggroy;347653Looks like the marketing model for the old D&D Mentzer box sets from the 1980's

- basic
- expert
- companion
- master
- immortal

yeah he did an interview and said the same thing.  If you read his design diary its basically d&d with enough changes to avoid copyright.

$30, boxset 1 is 2x64page booklets, 3 dice and a color map. covering levels 1-5...

charge me $50 and give me the whole thing in 1 box set... I want this but I dont want to pay $120 for 4 box sets, 8 64page booklets that require me to thumb through each one to find some XYZ because it applies from level 6-7.. Will I get two giant indexes that will cover all 4 books?

what if it does not have enough momentum and they decide not to release the lats two box sets?

Gonna put some more rum in my eggnog and turn off the pessimistic side for a while :)

I don't know...I enjoy what little I've played of the game...and I certainly hope Green Ronin does well...

But all Dragonage has to offer as a P&P rpg is the same old oft-regurgitated Tolkien crap that's been holding fantasy games back for years.

I need a little more than just Humans/Dwarves/Elves and Fighters/Rogues/Mages.

Perhaps Green Ronin's intended target audience isn't hardcore gamers who cut their teeth on (A)D&D and other rpgs.  They could be trying to attract people who have never played rpgs before, such as some of today's high school or college kids who would have otherwise played video games.

Quote from: ggroy;347678Perhaps Green Ronin's intended target audience isn't hardcore gamers who cut their teeth on (A)D&D and other rpgs.  They could be trying to attract people who have never played rpgs before, such as some of today's high school or college kids who would have otherwise played video games.

I think that this is exactly their target audience.

Consequently I have no interest in the game, although I wish them great success with it.

Quote from: Akrasia;347679I think that this is exactly their target audience.

What would be amusing is if the first Dragon Age box set ends up selling over a million copies in the first year.  I don't think this will happen, but it would be amusing if it was a surprise.

Wonder how WotC would react to something like this happening.

Quote from: ggroy;347710What would be amusing is if the first Dragon Age box set ends up selling over a million copies in the first year.  I don't think this will happen, but it would be amusing if it was a surprise.

Wonder how WotC would react to something like this happening.

If they play their cards right and maybe EA/Bioware is willing to cross-advertise, it could be possible.  Anything is possible with enough marketing if the brand is popular enough, and I think DA sold pretty well, though it's lasting impressions on the gaming community as a whole (especially younger gamers who didn't grow up with Baldur's Gate) remain to be seen.

But I highly doubt Bioware/EA will do more than make a sticky on their forums.

Dragon Age has a fucking awful system, but apparently they mostly butcher it here from what I can see anyway, so it depends on how much they keep intact.  DA the vidgame is basically a single player MMO, complete with MMO tank/DPS/healer and aggro system in place of any actual AI.

Also, that page design is fuckawful.  Not only is the giant red dragon painfully distracting, but at several points they actually use fucking red text on top of the red background, which is just infuckinexcusable.  I haven't seen page design that unreadable in a long, long time.

Quote from: J Arcane;347716Dragon Age has a fucking awful system, but apparently they mostly butcher it here from what I can see anyway, so it depends on how much they keep intact.  DA the vidgame is basically a single player MMO, complete with MMO tank/DPS/healer and aggro system in place of any actual AI.

DA has no "system" to convert to tabletop since it was designed from the get-go to be a PC game, not a PC game emulating a tabletop game, and 90% of all the crap is dealt with under the hood. It's better for it, IMO, as most CRPGs suffer more than they should for trying to be faithful to emulating rulesets that aren't supposed to just be plugged into a computer.

As for the AI, it's behavior is programmable down to the T by the player, so I don't know what you're getting at there.  But this is a whole 'nother argument, so I'll let it be.

Either way, Green Ronin has come out and stated that it'd be impossible to convert the PC game "system" over to tabletop since its inner workings are way to complex to put in a form people could deal with at a table.   Regardless of how you feel about the franchise, I think the tabletop version could help bring some fans into the hobby if it's dealt with correctly.

Quote from: ggroy;347710What would be amusing is if the first Dragon Age box set ends up selling over a million copies in the first year.  I don't think this will happen, but it would be amusing if it was a surprise.

Wonder how WotC would react to something like this happening.

You know, I'm no great fan personally of Pramas & Co.; but I hope and pray that this is what would happen. Based on everything I've heard, this is the first case where someone is actually trying to do what I said they should do for YEARS: go back for inspiration to the one model of presentation, design, and marketing that blew away all the others: The Basic D&D box set.

IF that's what DA is; and IF they do a good job of promoting it, it'll be the ultimate experiment. And if it does end up selling inordinately well, it'll change the whole game, all over again.

RPGPundit

Like others I applaud what GR is attempting. But there's something very underwhelming about the previews. It screams bland, bland, bland to me. While I'm not the target audience, I wonder if this game has any secret sauce to bring in the young 'uns.

The Dragon Age ruleset look like, compared to d20 D&D style systems:

- replaced a d20 with 3d6 as the generic dice roll
- replaced the skill system + feats with focuses + talents
- replaced vancian magic with a point based magic system

Otherwise it doesn't look much different than other fantasy rpgs.

Quote from: The_Shadow;347723It screams bland, bland, bland to me. While I'm not the target audience, I wonder if this game has any secret sauce to bring in the young 'uns.

Franchise/name power.  Bioware is a recognized name among hardcore RPG fans, Xbox kiddies, and gets blowjobs from gaming critics all the time.  It doesn't matter how bland the sauce is, as long as it says Big Mac on the wrapper.

My only fear is that there won't be enough market penetration due to lack of funds for advertising.  If they advertised tabletop games in their video game manuals, I bet it they'd sell, and even if it was just the hardcore fans, it'd be a significant number in terms of RPG sales.  

But if they don't, and the only people who know about these side projects are us, well, it may as well not exist.

Quote from: RPGPundit;347722You know, I'm no great fan personally of Pramas & Co.; but I hope and pray that this is what would happen. Based on everything I've heard, this is the first case where someone is actually trying to do what I said they should do for YEARS: go back for inspiration to the one model of presentation, design, and marketing that blew away all the others: The Basic D&D box set.

IF that's what DA is; and IF they do a good job of promoting it, it'll be the ultimate experiment. And if it does end up selling inordinately well, it'll change the whole game, all over again.

Wonder why exactly the basic D&D box set model was abandoned around 15 years ago.

Quote from: ggroy;347728Wonder why exactly the basic D&D box set model was abandoned around 15 years ago.

D&D went through the "hot new toy" phase for a few years, and the boxed sets played a part.  But for a "hot new toy" it had a fairly long run, though all toy fads eventually fade, never to return to their peak. If history is correct, roleplaying will never again reach a heyday equivalent to the 80's.

Of course, a growing "geek chic" culture combined with recognizable video-game franchises could inject some life back into the hobby, if handled right.  But I don't think we'll ever see a resurgence back to former glory, maybe just a slight jump, if the stars are right.  Kind of like how the 70's teleported themselves to the late 90's for a few years.

At this point, though, any income of fresh blood is good.

Quote from: Peregrin;347726But if they don't, and the only people who know about these side projects are us, well, it may as well not exist.

This was possibly the problem that set the fate of the Everquest and World of Warcraft d20 rpgs (by Sword & Sorcery/White Wolf).  Everybody I knew that were hardcore EverCrack and WarCrack players (and addicts), were completely oblivious to the existence of the d20 rpg versions, until I mentioned it to them years later when the d20 rpgs were on their way to going out-of-print.

Ability stats of Dragon Age, compared to 4E D&D equivalents.

- Communication -> Charisma?
- Constitution
- Cunning -> Intelligence?
- Dexterity
- Magic -> ?
- Perception -> Perception skill?
- Strength
- Willpower -> Wisdom?

They decoupled magical abilities completely from intelligence and wisdom.

30 bucks is a nice price I have to admit.  The BIG question is if they can get the damned game where people will see it.

If its just selling in the RPG market?

ITS DOOMED.

It needs to be in Wal Mart and Target right next to the videogames.  In Gamestop.

The tabletop RPG market didn't need a new sword and sorcery game 20 years ago.  Its only gotten more glutted since.

Especially since the amount of people that will play an RPG without D&D on the cover is REALLY DAMNED small.

If they were smart, big retail chains would be their primary market and they should pretty much ignore the comic and hobby shop trade outside of just making it available to Alliance and Diamond and maybe a little bit of push at Gen Con.

Quote from: Peregrin;347720DA has no "system" to convert to tabletop since it was designed from the get-go to be a PC game, not a PC game emulating a tabletop game, and 90% of all the crap is dealt with under the hood. It's better for it, IMO, as most CRPGs suffer more than they should for trying to be faithful to emulating rulesets that aren't supposed to just be plugged into a computer.

Going with a more tabletop styled core system, either original like Fallout did or licensed, would've produced one that is simpler and less obtuse, both to maintain, and for the player to learn and understand fully.

One of the biggest complaints I've seen from players about the game is that the system deliberately obscures the actual workings of the system to a ridiculous degree, making it very hard to know what a given thing is actually going to do and how effective it will be until you've already wasted the points on it.  

Dragon Age is a perfect example of why sticking to a tabletop system is a good idea for everyone involved.  It's worked for some of the best RPGs ever made, so I don't see where this ridiculous assertion that RPGs are no good for video games even comes from, frankly.  The only reason DA doesn't use a tabletop system, is because Bioware refuses to work with licensed properties, and most of their staff at this point have more experience with WoW than D&D.

QuoteAs for the AI, it's behavior is programmable down to the T by the player, so I don't know what you're getting at there.  But this is a whole 'nother argument, so I'll let it be.

I was talking about the NPC enemies.  But having to program my own companion AI because the built-in one is a rubbish is not a feature in my book.

QuoteEither way, Green Ronin has come out and stated that it'd be impossible to convert the PC game "system" over to tabletop since its inner workings are way to complex to put in a form people could deal with at a table.   Regardless of how you feel about the franchise, I think the tabletop version could help bring some fans into the hobby if it's dealt with correctly.

It could, if they market it right, and completely re-layout that piece of shit so it's actually readable.  

Quote from: The_Shadow;347723Like others I applaud what GR is attempting. But there's something very underwhelming about the previews. It screams bland, bland, bland to me. While I'm not the target audience, I wonder if this game has any secret sauce to bring in the young 'uns.

It is bland.  DA is probably the most overrated release in a decade.  It is absolute generica and cliche through and through, not an original idea to be had in the whole thing.  Even the system is just a rehash of the KOTOR layout but with more obtuse, MMO-inspired math.  

Frankly, the Dark Eye: Drakensang game had more of a unique flavor to me, and it certainly felt like a step backwards from Mass Effect from a story and setting perspective.  Bioware never should've stopped making D&D games, at least then they'd have an excuse for being so completely uncreative.

The biggest problem is that Dragon Age the video game has already gone past it's peak retail period.  It's had it's price already cut by $10 (at least in Canada) and is starting to show up on the used shelves.  The reviews for the game itself were not even remotely as high as they were hoping and the buz for the game has largely petered out.

Green Ronin was counting on Dragon Age being a hugely popular game that lived on in memories like Baldurs Gate, but it won't be.  The game just isn't that good.  They could have tried to launch the PnP closer to Dragon Age's launch date, but at that point they were expecting people to shell out $60 for the video game and then another $30 for a PnP.  Which is unlikely.  So they have to wait until after launch and go in with the crowd that just can't get enough of the world of Fereldon and want to turn their joyous video game experience into a PnP experience.  

But since the PnP isn't going to be showing up in Game Stop beside the video game they are now left targeting an Audience that loves Dragon Age and loves Rules Like RPG's, which in the grand scheme of things is probably relatively small, but likely still big enough for them to do ok.  What they have completely missed out on are ravenous fans of Dragon Age that are new to the PnP experience.  That would have been the key target audience to sell a million copies to.  But those people won't even see this game come up as a blip on their radar.

Well, as I was saying wayyyy back when this whole deali-o was announced, they should have found a way to get it on the shelves next to the game itself, if not packaged with it (nod to Kryyst). To be honest, I was surprised it didn't even come out at the same time - as stated before, the buzz is dying down already, and GR missed out on those coat-tails, small though they might have been. If they ONLY have it distributed on-line and in RPG shops, then it will die a quiet death - the only hope for big numbers is to get it in Gamestop, Target, etc.

So in short, what THEY said.

I'm interested to play the game.  I'm also glad they're making a system specifically for tabletop gaming, as opposed to trying to use the computer game ruleset; that way lies madness. (case in point: the original Fallout pen & paper rules that were more complicated than they needed to be.)

Quote from: J Arcane;347761Going with a more tabletop styled core system, either original like Fallout did or licensed, would've produced one that is simpler and less obtuse, both to maintain, and for the player to learn and understand fully.

One of the biggest complaints I've seen from players about the game is that the system deliberately obscures the actual workings of the system to a ridiculous degree, making it very hard to know what a given thing is actually going to do and how effective it will be until you've already wasted the points on it.  

Dragon Age is a perfect example of why sticking to a tabletop system is a good idea for everyone involved.  It's worked for some of the best RPGs ever made, so I don't see where this ridiculous assertion that RPGs are no good for video games even comes from, frankly.  The only reason DA doesn't use a tabletop system, is because Bioware refuses to work with licensed properties, and most of their staff at this point have more experience with WoW than D&D.

Dunno, I've heard the opposite from people who don't play tabletop.  They like that it draws from other PC games/MMO skill refresh/heal style than classic RPGs.  Though I will agree it can be fuzzy in places unless you really dig through the manual/in-game tutorials to see how distribution of your points affects your overall stats.  I don't think it feels like an MMO, because it's way too tactical/stop-and-go, though, even if the way skills/magic works is similar to WoW.

When I was talking about dropping the tabletop rulesets, I meant about how some conventions that just don't work are converted over anyway (resting in NWN was tedious and didn't add anything to the experience).  It's possible to keep a more "open" working ruleset and drop a lot of the tabletop conventions that make dealing with things in real-time more of a problem (Fallout 3 and Mass Effect managed this fairly well).

'Course, if I had my way, they'd still be making isometric turn-based RPGs like classic Fallout...

Regardless of all that, I think 3d6 for the boxed set is a smart choice.  "Familiar" dice that everyone has used before, nice bell curve, and you only ever need 3 dice.  The system as it stands may not please any veterans, but for someone who's never played tabletop it's a nice easy transition into the hobby.

Quote from: Shazbot79;347675But all Dragonage has to offer as a P&P rpg is the same old oft-regurgitated Tolkien crap that's been holding fantasy games back for years.

I need a little more than just Humans/Dwarves/Elves and Fighters/Rogues/Mages.

Oh, but this time the elves are slaves and the dwarves are political like...

Personally, I haven't decided if I'm getting Dragon Age or not and basically for this reason. I'm enjoying the game. Don't really need yet another fantasy RPG.

Seanchai

Quote from: RPGPundit;347722You know, I'm no great fan personally of Pramas & Co.; but I hope and pray that this is what would happen. Based on everything I've heard, this is the first case where someone is actually trying to do what I said they should do for YEARS: go back for inspiration to the one model of presentation, design, and marketing that blew away all the others: The Basic D&D box set.

And when it doesn't sell as well as the folks making these arguments say it should, maybe they'll shut the fuck up about introductory boxed sets. (Or, as I invited you to do, Pundit, prove us wrong by creating your own.)

Of course, they won't shut up as these arguments are based on nostalgia and actual facts just get in the way of the remembering, wishing, hoping, pining...

Seanchai

Quote from: ggroy;347728Wonder why exactly the basic D&D box set model was abandoned around 15 years ago.

Because boxed sets were expensive to produce and who was going to buy a Basic set? Not the folks who were playing AD&D and who already owned one.

Seanchai

Quote from: kryyst;347767But since the PnP isn't going to be showing up in Game Stop beside the video game...

I wish it would. Then maybe some folks would get it.

There's the RPG sitting next to the CRPG. At this point, they're basically the same price. So which is going to be purchased?

Well, a mom, dad, or other adult might accidentally pick up the RPG, thinking it was the computer game. That wouldn't end well, of course.

Would a knowledgeable non-RPG gamer pick it up? Doubtful. They're both the same price, but one requires work. It requires getting together a bunch of friends. It has a bunch of alien concepts. And the price of admission for the RPG is forgoing the purchase of a CRPG, which is more of a known quantity and sure thing.

Seanchai

Quote from: Seanchai;347797I wish it would. Then maybe some folks would get it.

There's the RPG sitting next to the CRPG. At this point, they're basically the same price. So which is going to be purchased?

Well, a mom, dad, or other adult might accidentally pick up the RPG, thinking it was the computer game. That wouldn't end well, of course.

Would a knowledgeable non-RPG gamer pick it up? Doubtful. They're both the same price, but one requires work. It requires getting together a bunch of friends. It has a bunch of alien concepts. And the price of admission for the RPG is forgoing the purchase of a CRPG, which is more of a known quantity and sure thing.

Seanchai

What they should have done is actually released them as a bundle at launch.

CRPG = $60
PnP = $30
Bundle = $70

Seems like a good way to get the PnP into the market place and to a potentially or hesitant audience.  I can say that right now I have no intention of buying the PnP.  However had it been available at launch in that kind of a scenario I would have.

Now granted Two Worlds tried something similar with their deluxe edition which came with a Two Worlds PnP.  However it was just a small book in the box.  Looked like a discount RPG and was marketed with about the same intelligence as the bonus mini-comic you may get with a DVD.

Quote from: Seanchai;347797Would a knowledgeable non-RPG gamer pick it up? Doubtful. They're both the same price, but one requires work. It requires getting together a bunch of friends. It has a bunch of alien concepts. And the price of admission for the RPG is forgoing the purchase of a CRPG, which is more of a known quantity and sure thing.

Seanchai

You'd be surprised at how popular boxed/board games are at colleges.  For those of us who haven't sold our souls to MMOs, we need some type of game to pass the time that also allows the super-socialization demanded by a college atmosphere, and board/tabletop games fit the bill perfectly.

Hell, this chick I know from school who doesn't know anything about tabletop games bought Arkham Horror cause "it looked cool, and we can play it at so-and-so's apartment".

QuoteWhat they should have done is actually released them as a bundle at launch.

CRPG = $60
PnP = $30
Bundle = $70

Seems like a good way to get the PnP into the market place and to a potentially or hesitant audience. I can say that right now I have no intention of buying the PnP. However had it been available at launch in that kind of a scenario I would have.

Yeah.  I'd like this to work out, but as I said before, I doubt EA or Bioware are going to spend any effort promoting this thing.

You know, I just might put both on my Christmas list. I think the PC game looks awesome and I'm always looking to check out new PnP settings/systems.

Just for the record, my GM loves Dragon Age on his computer, and one of my RQ players told me on no uncertain terms that I am buying the box set as soon as it is released.

Personally: I don't quite get why they needed to add two more stats, I think that's an unnecessary complication. Likewise I'm rather annoyed at the 'race' breakdown. Again: being able to play an orlesian or a trevinter or an antivan is an appeal, as is the largely seperate selection of race.   I find that a remarkably annoying 'step back' in design philosophy.  The seven starting 'races' don't sound particularly broad.  

Still, I like the 3d6 mechanic and the rest, and if I ever found a 'perfect' game I'd probably drop dead on the spot from shock.

Quote from: Peregrin;347805You'd be surprised at how popular boxed/board games are at colleges.

How much work does a board game require outside of the game? You can just pick it up, set out the board, and play, right?

Seanchai

Quote from: Seanchai;347793And when it doesn't sell as well as the folks making these arguments say it should, maybe they'll shut the fuck up about introductory boxed sets. (Or, as I invited you to do, Pundit, prove us wrong by creating your own.)

Of course, they won't shut up as these arguments are based on nostalgia and actual facts just get in the way of the remembering, wishing, hoping, pining...

Outside of TSR, which other game companies produced "basic box sets" of their games comparable in quality to the Mentzer basic D&D box set?  Were these "basic box sets" a success too?

Quote from: Seanchai;347812How much work does a board game require outside of the game? You can just pick it up, set out the board, and play, right?

Seanchai

Arkham Horror takes quite a while to setup, and literally takes hours to play to completion (it's essentially a boardgame with RPG elements -- characters with stats and everything), whereas an RPG you can stop anywhere you want.

As far as I'm aware, the DA boxed set will also ship with an adventure, and if the system is as simple as they're making it out to be, it shouldn't be too hard for someone to pick up the basics of GMing.  If the adventure takes the characters through the full 5 levels, and each boxed set continues on like that, I don't see GM work being a big issue.

Update: I have now the PDF's of box one.  I am at the mercy of impulse shopping... is there a group or something I can join?

Anyway: I have NO idea what Jenny Arcane was going on about regarding red text and hard to read formatting, as there is NO evidence of that in the PDF copy of the book.

The DMG: 66 pages, lots of high quality artwork, bog standard gaming advice (including a mandatory section on 'problem players' that I've seen a hundred times), a redonkulously short 'adversary' section, leading me to believe Ferelden is a relatively nice place to live compared to the average D&D world.  I won't dignify a built in adventure, as I have no use for such things.

There is a short chapter (three pages?) on magic items, and a one page magic item 'list', broken into minor/temporary items and 'cool shit' items.

Verdict: Not bad. Mostly a waste of time for old hand GM's, but a new player might get a bit of use out of it. Its short/small enough that isn't a massive waste of time.  It does seem virtually unnecessary for moment to moment play at the table, as aside from advice the only real 'rules' in it would be the 'standard DC table'.

I'm still going through the player's guide.  Seems quick and easy, and perhaps not quite as bad as I'd feared on the 'races'... though still fairly limited.  Of note for the CRPG players: Grey Wardens are name checked and you are referred to the second box set for more information.

Quote from: Peregrin;347819Arkham Horror takes quite a while to setup, and literally takes hours to play to completion (it's essentially a boardgame with RPG elements -- characters with stats and everything), whereas an RPG you can stop anywhere you want.

Is "quite a while" the time it takes to learn a game, create or familiarize yourself with it, roll up characters, do inter-session bookkeeping, learn new rules from new supplements, etc.? Because most RPGs - and I'm guessing Dragon Age will fall into this category - require more work than half an hour of setting up a board. Speaking for myself, I love the "homework," but others view it as just that...

Seanchai

Quote from: ggroy;347813Outside of TSR, which other game companies produced "basic box sets" of their games comparable in quality to the Mentzer basic D&D box set?  Were these "basic box sets" a success too?

Some guesses:

Traveller
Ghostbusters?
Lord of the Rings Adventure Game (the I.C.E. game based on the QuestWorlds solo adventure system; IMHO an extremely good intro set, had two follow-up products but suffered from being in the shadow of MERP.)
Das Schwarze Auge (Lower quality than Mentzer Basic, but managed to blow away D&D in Germany anyway.)
Midgard (IMHO the best intro box ever done, was relatively successful in Germany, yet way below DSA's success levels, even though it was in toy stores and department chains next to DSA.)
Chroniques Oubliées (Too recent to rate the success.)

Intro box sets that were in wide distribution and failed miserably:

Everway (way too expensive, way too artsy)
Lord of the Rings Adventure Game (the Decipher version based on CODA, just one big missed opportunity; uninspired and boring crippleware)

Quote from: ggroy;347813Outside of TSR, which other game companies produced "basic box sets" of their games comparable in quality to the Mentzer basic D&D box set?  Were these "basic box sets" a success too?

Aside from the stuff Dirk R. mentions, there have been:

Runequest : various boxed sets by Chaosium and Avalon Hill did well enough

Empire of the Petal Throne : originally came out in a boxed set and T.O.M.E. put out a boxed set, neither was commercially successful, but they certainly were influential.

ElfQuest : Chaosium liked boxed sets, did ok during the initial ElfQuest craze

Ringworld : again Chaosium liked boxed sets, not a big splash but not exactly a failure

GURPS : I believe they had a boxed set at one point, but it passed into rarity quickly as people preferred the book version

Top Secret : another boxed set and for a time the only spy RPG

James Bond/007 : had a boxed starter set and boxed adventure sets and was very popular in its niche

so quite a few boxed sets over the years . . . at least 15 or so not counting TSR stuff

That's curious: Both times I owned Chaosiums ElfQuest it was only a book, not a box.

I feel... gypt.

Quote from: worrapol;347909Aside from the stuff Dirk R. mentions, there have been:

Runequest : various boxed sets by Chaosium and Avalon Hill did well enough

Empire of the Petal Throne : originally came out in a boxed set and T.O.M.E. put out a boxed set, neither was commercially successful, but they certainly were influential.

ElfQuest : Chaosium liked boxed sets, did ok during the initial ElfQuest craze

Ringworld : again Chaosium liked boxed sets, not a big splash but not exactly a failure

GURPS : I believe they had a boxed set at one point, but it passed into rarity quickly as people preferred the book version

Top Secret : another boxed set and for a time the only spy RPG

James Bond/007 : had a boxed starter set and boxed adventure sets and was very popular in its niche

so quite a few boxed sets over the years . . . at least 15 or so not counting TSR stuff

Were these box sets full entire games, or just a basic introductions?

I suppose a "full entire" game could be something akin to the D&D Rules Cyclopedia, but in box set form.  A "basic intro" would be something more like the Mentzer or Moldvay basic D&D box sets.

Quote from: worrapol;347909Aside from the stuff Dirk R. mentions, there have been:

Runequest : various boxed sets by Chaosium and Avalon Hill did well enough

Empire of the Petal Throne : originally came out in a boxed set and T.O.M.E. put out a boxed set, neither was commercially successful, but they certainly were influential.

ElfQuest : Chaosium liked boxed sets, did ok during the initial ElfQuest craze

Ringworld : again Chaosium liked boxed sets, not a big splash but not exactly a failure

GURPS : I believe they had a boxed set at one point, but it passed into rarity quickly as people preferred the book version

Top Secret : another boxed set and for a time the only spy RPG

James Bond/007 : had a boxed starter set and boxed adventure sets and was very popular in its niche

so quite a few boxed sets over the years . . . at least 15 or so not counting TSR stuff

Don't forget Tunnels & Trolls, Marvel FASERIP, Star Frontiers, Mayfair DC...

Boxed sets are cool, but its where they are sold.  Boxed sets to existing RPG players is pretty well worthless.  Unless its got D&D on the cover.

Box sets outside of the existing dwindling market?  Now we are on to something!

Not to get off-track here, but IMO box sets rule.

 I good give two $hits about nostagia, box sets are great because you can put everything used to play the game ( dice, notes, pencils, maps ect. ) in there which makes it alot less hassle to lug around, not to mention less of a chance of misplacing things.

Other boxed set games:

Boot Hill
TORG
Conan (the TSR version)
Mercenaries, Spies, and Private Eyes
Behind Enemy Lines
Lords of Creation
Powers & Perils
Flashing Blades!
XXVc
Valley of the Pharaohs
Gamma World

There are plenty more, but those are the ones I can remember off the top of my head (besides the ones other have mentioned). All of them would be considered full games in the context of the time they were released. That is, they weren't considered introductions to bigger games.

By the way, to confirm guesses above: Ghostbusters was, indeed, a boxed game for both editions. Traveller was an iconic boxed game, both because of its classic black cover with the "Beowulf" mayday, and the fact it was smaller than other boxed sets.

EDIT: Oh! I actually still have the GURPS boxed set. I forget if it's first or second edition.

Quote from: ColonelHardisson;348105By the way, to confirm guesses above: Ghostbusters was, indeed, a boxed game for both editions.

Yes, I knew that. The "guess" was about how relevant the example was with regards to the the OP (intro set and "successful"). I feel that I stretched the limits with Ghostbusters as it was not an intro set but a complete game (same for Everway), and for the fact that I don't know how successful it really was. (It did get a second edition, and it was a huge influence/stepping stone on the way to Star Wars d6.)
That's the reason why I also deliberately ignored many of the games that were mentioned since.

Another introductory box that was aimed at beginners was the Hercules & Xena RPG, even complete with custom dice. At first I loughed at it, but later I found the rule book in a bargain bin and found it to be a quite thorough intro game.

Quote from: ggroy;347912I suppose a "full entire" game could be something akin to the D&D Rules Cyclopedia, but in box set form.  A "basic intro" would be something more like the Mentzer or Moldvay basic D&D box sets.

Quote from: Captain Rufus;347933Boxed sets are cool, but its where they are sold.  Boxed sets to existing RPG players is pretty well worthless.  Unless its got D&D on the cover.

Box sets outside of the existing dwindling market?  Now we are on to something!

Funny thing is that in Germany, the second try to publish AD&D 2nd Edition (the first one, undertaken by a German distributor and TSR UK themselves, had failed before) used the box set approach for the whole core rule book line. That new publisher, Amigo, was WotC's exclusive distributor of Magic The Gathering, and they acquired the AD&D license as soon as WotC had taken over TSR.
They had analyzed the German market, i.e. what made Das Schwarze Auge was so successful, and mirrored the way DSA was produced: its rules spread out over several box sets, with several stapled booklets (and dice) in each. (They even mirrored the general layout of the boxes - the DSA boxes had an iconic dark grey stone border on their covers, so the AD&D boxes got a reddish-brown stone border!)
As successful board and card game publisher and distributor (with MTG in their portfolio) their products were carried by just about every toy and game store in Germany. So, for a brief time between TSR's downfall and D&D3, AD&D was sold as really old-fashioned boxed game. They even had a very competetively priced intro box, the AD&D Starter Set (taking a cue from MTG...).
So, ironically, the most successful run of AD&D in Germany were those years in which the game struggled in the US, waiting for a revision.

When D&D3 came Amigo translated the new version as soon as they could. This time they took a "best of both worlds" approach: the rules were published in the original hardcover format, but came in a box, for toy store/distribution reasons.

"Success" is such a relative term, it's hard to determine the line between successful and unsuccessful. Of the ones I listed, I'm confident that these could be called successes:

Boot Hill
Gamma World
TORG

Something like Mercenaries, Spies, and Private Eyes had a moment in the sun, so I'd call it a success, but a brief, minor one.

Ghostbusters I'd also call a success using the same reasoning.

XXVc would probably be called a monetary success today, though it's often maligned. A lot of game companies today would probably be ecstatic to sell their games in the numbers XXVc did.

A lot of games in the pre-internet days would probably rate as successes by today's standards, even if they're barely remembered now. Conversely, a lot of games that are considered successes today would have been seen as failures back in the heyday of RPGs, the 1980s. Mostly this has to do with the internet, which disseminates information so readily; back in the day, a game had to sell really well to make it onto the average gamer's radar.

Quote from: ColonelHardisson;348145A lot of games in the pre-internet days would probably rate as successes by today's standards, even if they're barely remembered now. Conversely, a lot of games that are considered successes today would have been seen as failures back in the heyday of RPGs, the 1980s.

True.

I just thought of another boxed set that could be viewed as an intro game (and a very successful one, to boot):
MERP (both the I.C.E. and the G.W. box versions)
Although it was de facto a complete game it did double duty as a lead to its "parent game", RoleMaster.

Quote from: ggroy;347912Were these box sets full entire games, or just a basic introductions?

I suppose a "full entire" game could be something akin to the D&D Rules Cyclopedia, but in box set form.  A "basic intro" would be something more like the Mentzer or Moldvay basic D&D box sets.

There was an age long ago when almost every game came in a box and was complete unto itself.

Quote from: Captain Rufus;347933Boxed sets are cool, but its where they are sold.  Boxed sets to existing RPG players is pretty well worthless.  Unless its got D&D on the cover.

I dont agree with this. Speaking as an already exsisting player I would definitely consider a boxed set. Even one that doesnt say D&D on it.

Quote from: Captain Rufus;347933Box sets outside of the existing dwindling market?  Now we are on to something!

I do agree with this though.