Anyone notice that a small creature with a 10 strength and no BAB can bulrush a large creature with an 18 strength and a 10 dexterity on a 16? That's a 25% chance of success. I don't know how many of you picture that situation as a 7th grader shoving Brock Lesner back 5', but I do and its stupid.

How about if the 7th grader was armed with a knife or baseball bat?

Quote from: ggroy;336388How about if the 7th grader was armed with a knife or baseball bat?

Wouldn't be a bulrush then. You don't need a knife to do one.

10 strength is 'regular guy'; 6-8 might be seventh grader.

Quote from: LeSquide;33639210 strength is 'regular guy'; 6-8 might be seventh grader.

It is more the picture of the small, 10 strength, against the large 18 that I'm getting at.

Quote from: Cranewings;336393It is more the picture of the small, 10 strength, against the large 18 that I'm getting at.

I think his point is that 10 isn't "small" but "average".

Quote from: Benoist;336395I think his point is that 10 isn't "small" but "average".

point taken

It still sucks. I think White Wolfs victory ratios for average or small against peek human were pretty good. Rolling 2 dice against 5 was about impossible.

I feel like D&D has always catered to the idea of small people beating big people. Or more to the point, maybe the flavor is that being big isn't really an advantage (though statistically, being fast isn't much help either). In the old days of second edition, before I ever lifted weights or played a sport, the charts game me, in real life, a 16 strength. I wonder why they wrote the game without any thought towards what human potential really is?

I think D&D has always skewed things towards allowing even average humans to do heroic/amazing things.  I have no problem with that.

Being big -does- help you avoid this sort of thing (ESPECIALLY in Pathfinder), it's just a matter of how big you are. So, a regular guy has a 25% chance to move the big bruiser by hurling himself at the big guy wildly? I think that makes a reasonable amount of sense; I don't think it'd make sense if it was impossible.

I'm not fond of the fact that superhumanly strong high level fighters can't budge similar CR monsters, but that's a differently kettle of fish.

Quote from: Cranewings;336398I feel like D&D has always catered to the idea of small people beating big people.

Of course.  D&D wouldn't appeal to nerds if their gnome wizard who gets ignored by girls depsite his great grades couldn't beat up a 7' orc who's only popular for being good at football.  This is a fantasy, after all.

I agree, though, for verisimilitude reasons.  When I run small-sized characters I generally won't give them more than a 7 for strength, because I like that, but I only groan inwardly when someone ponies up a 16 strength halfling swordmaster.

Quote from: Cranewings;336398In the old days of second edition, before I ever lifted weights or played a sport, the charts game me, in real life, a 16 strength.

What calculation are you basing that on?

EDIT:  I'm looking at the 2e PHB, and it says that a STR 16 character can lift 195lb (88.64kg) over his head.  If you could do that without training or being unusually large, then you, my friend, are a freak of nature and not representative of the average!

Quote from: LeSquide;336400Being big -does- help you avoid this sort of thing (ESPECIALLY in Pathfinder), it's just a matter of how big you are. So, a regular guy has a 25% chance to move the big bruiser by hurling himself at the big guy wildly? I think that makes a reasonable amount of sense; I don't think it'd make sense if it was impossible.

I'm not fond of the fact that superhumanly strong high level fighters can't budge similar CR monsters, but that's a differently kettle of fish.

Actually, they can very easily budge most similar CR monsters.  They just have a bit harder time with size Huge giants with 39 Str...

Quote from: Hairfoot;336403Of course.  D&D wouldn't appeal to nerds if their gnome wizard who gets ignored by girls depsite his great grades couldn't beat up a 7' orc who's only popular for being good at football.  This is a fantasy, after all.

I agree, though, for verisimilitude reasons.  When I run small-sized characters I generally won't give them more than a 7 for strength, because I like that, but I only groan inwardly when someone ponies up a 16 strength halfling swordmaster.




What calculation are you basing that on?

EDIT:  I'm looking at the 2e PHB, and it says that a STR 16 character can lift 195lb (88.64kg) over his head.  If you could do that without training or being unusually large, then you, my friend, are a freak of nature and not representative of the average!

As for my strength, I haven't seen the book for a long time, but I still think the table is fucked.

As for the nerd thing, I don't know if that is it.

Most nerd fantasy is about being the jock, not beating the jock. Even Peter Parker got powers to beat the jock, he didn't do it with just his mind.

I own a lot of fantasy art. Most of the guys are ripped, and those that aren't are drawn with shocking regularity holding things like basket balls. Most of this kind of stuff comes from novel covers.

Luke Skywalker = Farmboy Jock
Capt. Kirk = College Jock

You know, if I wanted Total Fucking Realism, then I wouldn't be playng RPGs.