So I have heard some bad things and I have heard some good things about d20 Modern and its related sourcebooks.

What is the opinion around here?

It has a lot of rules for playing in a sci-fi setting and looks like it would do that decently. The classes are more flexible than 3e Fantasy.

The martial arts rules are kinda stupid. Usually with a modern game I flip strait to them... which is all I've read out of d20 modern. They were too bad for me to play. I have to have something crunchy and flavorful.

I'm watching, "The Big Boss" right now. Amazing.

Equipment, yeah - Starships are poorly designed. The carrier makes a better battleship than the battleship. The mecha are very few. The higher-tech weapons aren't actually better than the lower-tech weapons. There is no real combat benefit from having higher tech.

There's a bit of 'People at a lower tech level aren't as good with higher-tech stuff'.

All in all? The only other sci-fi RPG I've read is Star Hero (Hero System) I'm still willing to go out and say 'Play something else'.

Hmm..  See, my real desire is finding the rule set that I can use to convert Rifts.  The Palladium system is old and broken and Kevin is too much of a dumb ass to admit it.  One of the best settings in the industry is anchored to some of the most broken and contradictory rules out there.

I was thinking d20 Modern because the Palladium system is nothing but House ruled AD&D anyway.

So, I want to get a feel on if the system is any good or not.  Thanks for the responses so far.

Well, I like Hero System, but a lot of people seem to think it's complex. I've run it and not found it so - Or not anymore than 3e. If you can understand 'Contingent Teleport', you can understand anything in Hero System.

Or Risus. I'm of the opinion they're both basically the same game, at opposite ends of the spectrum.

I don't know why but I have never been able to get into HERO or GURPS.   I don't understand it because I do not run away from crunch.  In fact, rules-lite is not my thing at all.  

I think it is because of the page count of those books.  I mean, HERO 5th edition can stop bullets.  I even posted the video in another thread.  That is alot of dead tree.

I liked D20 Modern thematically, but I wouldn't run a game with it.

My biggest gripe is that the firearm mechanics are no more than "guns do lots of damage", because the traditional AC system doesn't mesh well with gunplay.

Quote from: Darkeus;308353I don't know why but I have never been able to get into HERO or GURPS.   I don't understand it because I do not run away from crunch.  In fact, rules-lite is not my thing at all.  

I think it is because of the page count of those books.  I mean, HERO 5th edition can stop bullets.  I even posted the video in another thread.  That is alot of dead tree.

Oh, I'm with you on *Useless* page counts. I ignore large swaths of both 3e and 4e when I run them.

However, I've yet to get a single 'This page is useless' vib while reading any Hero System book.

As for the size - The thing is, the Hero System books aren't best used like 'traditional' RPG books. There's - And this may seem contradictory to the previous statement, but it isn't - No need to read the whole book. The Hero System books are reference books.

To run, say, 3e D&D 'according to the rules', you need to pretty much memorize entire sections.

To run Hero System, you just need to know the basics. Then, if you run into, say, Teleport 512", Only In Shadows -1/2, Only To Shadows -1/2, 4 NR Charges -3, you need to know two thing - That 'Inches' in Hero System default to two meters each and that things with minuses after them are limitations - and read...Let me check...Two sentences and two headings. Charges: 'A character can use a power with this limitation a limited number of times per day'.
Then you scroll down to (It gets complex here) the 'Charges Options' section and check the headings. On the third page, you'll note 'Never Recover'. 'Charges which Never Recover are worth an additional -2 limitation'.
Oh, you have to skim seven headings, including 'Never Recover', too.
You don't need to read more than that to understand what it means. The rest of it is just advice on what and how to use it when constructing an item or power with it.

Two facts, two sentences and two headings. And the rest is contained in the description of the power itself. All of the rest of the reference text is useful, but none of it is*Necessary*. It's just sensible advice, like 'Don't let people use it to get hundreds of charges cheap'.

I'd love to get a decent argument on why Hero System is 'bad'.

Sorry, you have to know three things - That 'NR' is a 'Charges' option. I dunno how confusing that might be.

It isn't confusing at all.  I don't think HERO is bad either.  Lots of people love it and I own 5th edition myself as well as GURPS 4th edition.  

Actually, that is good advice.  I love to read but those books make me sleepy for some reason.  I kind of hate that since I know they would serve me well.  

d20 Modern is another game I own but have not read completely.  If you haven't noticed, I collect RPG's.  The advent of the Pdf was bad for me..

Oh yeah, reading the books is like reading a textbook. I can tell you for sure, though, that running a game is fun and easy (For me, anyway) - I ran one for my Brother and, while I 'clicked' with the rules, he didn't. Not the greatest of recommendations, but not everyone likes every system.

But, here's the session logs:
Session 1
Session 2a
Session 2b

But really, all the internet arguing won't solve a thing. *Shrug* Only way to know if you'll like it (Like me) or not (Like my Brother) is to play or run.

I'm going to toss out a suggestion for the guy looking to replace the Rifts rules:

EABA. It's a Roll a bunch of D6's (Stat dice + skill dice) and keep the best 3 dice.
Human stat range is 3-12, really, but dice are stat/3 round down, but the extra points are kept as a die-roll modifier. Skills range 0D unskilled to 5D grandmaster...

It does what GURPS Basic does in fewer pages, and throws in vehicle design, weapon design, and paranormal effect design. Point based characters, using two pools: stat pool and skill pool; age is an advantage granting more skill pool.

Adding EABA Stuff! adds expansions to those design sequences, plus race design, and more. (I playtested it. It rocks for doing a Traveller game... use the MT task targets, and it fits really well.)

D20 modern has some pretty lame firearm rules, particularly where fully automatic and burst fire weapons are concerned. For example, if you want to spray an area with bullets, it becomes an area attack that ignores armor.

I'm not real fond of the unarmed combat rules, either. Two untrained combatants could fight all day and not hurt each other.

D20 modern has a good body of supporting work, especially from third party publishers (though many jewels are out of print and hard to find now).

Character generation is fairly flexible, and handles mundane professions better than some games. I'd recommend it for scenarios like The Abyss where you might have characters that has similar professions but are ultimately very different.

For RIFTS, if you have any mastery of HERO, that'd be a good choice, though if you don't, it could be a monumental task.

Haven't played d20 modern in awhile, but my gaming group liked it more then 3.5 (which we also enjoyed), for both the system and the theme.

We never really found the character options failing to provide for any concept we had, and many of the more dubious concepts/builds actually worked out.

The big problems have already been mentioned:
Unarmed non-lethal combat - crap
Auto fire -crap
Shotguns - crap
Vehicle combat (or mecha for future) - nightmarish

You can find a good deal of house-rule sets online to address many of these issues, most of them are rather good, and actually follow the system logic far better that what WotC put out.

Some advice for getting a preliminary 'Am I going to like Hero System'? Buy a Hero Designer v3 - Only comes in a 2-year support contract. Updates are frequent, so it's acceptable.
Anyway, it'll tell you enough about stuff ('Define' button) to play around with rules and - This is the high point - Do all the math for you. Making Hero System characters by hand is *Only* for people who *Truly Enjoy* multiplication and division.
I like math myself, but Hero System is a bit too much. None of it is complex, but each time you rework a power, you'd have to add all the advantages, add all the limitations, then multiply and divide.
Let Hero Designer do it for you.

Anyway, back on topic, make some characters. See if you enjoy the character creation. It's kinda like legos, only you can mold the blocks. Legos and play-do.

...I find it lots of fun. And, if you don't like it, you haven't gone and bought a whole, more expensive rule-book.
If you do like it, you'd probably have bought it anyway.