TheRPGSite

So I have heard some bad things and I have heard some good things about d20 Modern and its related sourcebooks.

What is the opinion around here?

It has a lot of rules for playing in a sci-fi setting and looks like it would do that decently. The classes are more flexible than 3e Fantasy.

The martial arts rules are kinda stupid. Usually with a modern game I flip strait to them... which is all I've read out of d20 modern. They were too bad for me to play. I have to have something crunchy and flavorful.

I'm watching, "The Big Boss" right now. Amazing.

Equipment, yeah - Starships are poorly designed. The carrier makes a better battleship than the battleship. The mecha are very few. The higher-tech weapons aren't actually better than the lower-tech weapons. There is no real combat benefit from having higher tech.

There's a bit of 'People at a lower tech level aren't as good with higher-tech stuff'.

All in all? The only other sci-fi RPG I've read is Star Hero (Hero System) I'm still willing to go out and say 'Play something else'.

Hmm..  See, my real desire is finding the rule set that I can use to convert Rifts.  The Palladium system is old and broken and Kevin is too much of a dumb ass to admit it.  One of the best settings in the industry is anchored to some of the most broken and contradictory rules out there.

I was thinking d20 Modern because the Palladium system is nothing but House ruled AD&D anyway.

So, I want to get a feel on if the system is any good or not.  Thanks for the responses so far.

Well, I like Hero System, but a lot of people seem to think it's complex. I've run it and not found it so - Or not anymore than 3e. If you can understand 'Contingent Teleport', you can understand anything in Hero System.

Or Risus. I'm of the opinion they're both basically the same game, at opposite ends of the spectrum.

I don't know why but I have never been able to get into HERO or GURPS.   I don't understand it because I do not run away from crunch.  In fact, rules-lite is not my thing at all.  

I think it is because of the page count of those books.  I mean, HERO 5th edition can stop bullets.  I even posted the video in another thread.  That is alot of dead tree. :)

I liked D20 Modern thematically, but I wouldn't run a game with it.

My biggest gripe is that the firearm mechanics are no more than "guns do lots of damage", because the traditional AC system doesn't mesh well with gunplay.

Quote from: Darkeus;308353I don't know why but I have never been able to get into HERO or GURPS.   I don't understand it because I do not run away from crunch.  In fact, rules-lite is not my thing at all.  

I think it is because of the page count of those books.  I mean, HERO 5th edition can stop bullets.  I even posted the video in another thread.  That is alot of dead tree. :)

Oh, I'm with you on *Useless* page counts. I ignore large swaths of both 3e and 4e when I run them.

However, I've yet to get a single 'This page is useless' vib while reading any Hero System book.

As for the size - The thing is, the Hero System books aren't best used like 'traditional' RPG books. There's - And this may seem contradictory to the previous statement, but it isn't - No need to read the whole book. The Hero System books are reference books.

To run, say, 3e D&D 'according to the rules', you need to pretty much memorize entire sections.

To run Hero System, you just need to know the basics. Then, if you run into, say, Teleport 512", Only In Shadows -1/2, Only To Shadows -1/2, 4 NR Charges -3, you need to know two thing - That 'Inches' in Hero System default to two meters each and that things with minuses after them are limitations - and read...Let me check...Two sentences and two headings. Charges: 'A character can use a power with this limitation a limited number of times per day'.
Then you scroll down to (It gets complex here) the 'Charges Options' section and check the headings. On the third page, you'll note 'Never Recover'. 'Charges which Never Recover are worth an additional -2 limitation'.
Oh, you have to skim seven headings, including 'Never Recover', too.
You don't need to read more than that to understand what it means. The rest of it is just advice on what and how to use it when constructing an item or power with it.

Two facts, two sentences and two headings. And the rest is contained in the description of the power itself. All of the rest of the reference text is useful, but none of it is*Necessary*. It's just sensible advice, like 'Don't let people use it to get hundreds of charges cheap'.

I'd love to get a decent argument on why Hero System is 'bad'.

Sorry, you have to know three things - That 'NR' is a 'Charges' option. I dunno how confusing that might be.

It isn't confusing at all.  I don't think HERO is bad either.  Lots of people love it and I own 5th edition myself as well as GURPS 4th edition.  

Actually, that is good advice.  I love to read but those books make me sleepy for some reason.  I kind of hate that since I know they would serve me well.  

d20 Modern is another game I own but have not read completely.  If you haven't noticed, I collect RPG's.  The advent of the Pdf was bad for me.. :)

Oh yeah, reading the books is like reading a textbook. I can tell you for sure, though, that running a game is fun and easy (For me, anyway) - I ran one for my Brother and, while I 'clicked' with the rules, he didn't. Not the greatest of recommendations, but not everyone likes every system.

But, here's the session logs:
Session 1 (http://narf-the-mouse.livejournal.com/9981.html)
Session 2a (http://narf-the-mouse.livejournal.com/10019.html)
Session 2b (http://narf-the-mouse.livejournal.com/10403.html)

But really, all the internet arguing won't solve a thing. *Shrug* Only way to know if you'll like it (Like me) or not (Like my Brother) is to play or run.

I'm going to toss out a suggestion for the guy looking to replace the Rifts rules:

EABA. It's a Roll a bunch of D6's (Stat dice + skill dice) and keep the best 3 dice.
Human stat range is 3-12, really, but dice are stat/3 round down, but the extra points are kept as a die-roll modifier. Skills range 0D unskilled to 5D grandmaster...

It does what GURPS Basic does in fewer pages, and throws in vehicle design, weapon design, and paranormal effect design. Point based characters, using two pools: stat pool and skill pool; age is an advantage granting more skill pool.

Adding EABA Stuff! adds expansions to those design sequences, plus race design, and more. (I playtested it. It rocks for doing a Traveller game... use the MT task targets, and it fits really well.)

D20 modern has some pretty lame firearm rules, particularly where fully automatic and burst fire weapons are concerned. For example, if you want to spray an area with bullets, it becomes an area attack that ignores armor.

I'm not real fond of the unarmed combat rules, either. Two untrained combatants could fight all day and not hurt each other.

D20 modern has a good body of supporting work, especially from third party publishers (though many jewels are out of print and hard to find now).

Character generation is fairly flexible, and handles mundane professions better than some games. I'd recommend it for scenarios like The Abyss where you might have characters that has similar professions but are ultimately very different.

For RIFTS, if you have any mastery of HERO, that'd be a good choice, though if you don't, it could be a monumental task.

Haven't played d20 modern in awhile, but my gaming group liked it more then 3.5 (which we also enjoyed), for both the system and the theme.

We never really found the character options failing to provide for any concept we had, and many of the more dubious concepts/builds actually worked out.

The big problems have already been mentioned:
Unarmed non-lethal combat - crap
Auto fire -crap
Shotguns - crap
Vehicle combat (or mecha for future) - nightmarish

You can find a good deal of house-rule sets online to address many of these issues, most of them are rather good, and actually follow the system logic far better that what WotC put out.

Some advice for getting a preliminary 'Am I going to like Hero System'? Buy a Hero Designer v3 - Only comes in a 2-year support contract. Updates are frequent, so it's acceptable.
Anyway, it'll tell you enough about stuff ('Define' button) to play around with rules and - This is the high point - Do all the math for you. Making Hero System characters by hand is *Only* for people who *Truly Enjoy* multiplication and division.
I like math myself, but Hero System is a bit too much. None of it is complex, but each time you rework a power, you'd have to add all the advantages, add all the limitations, then multiply and divide.
Let Hero Designer do it for you.

Anyway, back on topic, make some characters. See if you enjoy the character creation. It's kinda like legos, only you can mold the blocks. Legos and play-do.

...I find it lots of fun. And, if you don't like it, you haven't gone and bought a whole, more expensive rule-book.
If you do like it, you'd probably have bought it anyway.

@Darkeus

A d20 system that handles both vehicle combat and modern firearms well, plus could give you an edge on the more sci-fi aspects of RIFTS is d20 Traveller. If you just want to get a taste of the combat rules, you can download the free PDF of d20 Traveller Lite from either DriveThruRPG (http://rpg.drivethrustuff.com/product_info.php?products_id=28813&it=1) or RPGnow (http://www.rpgnow.com/product_info.php?products_id=28813&it=1).

The bad news is if you like the system, it is OOP. So you would have to pick the book up through ebay, Amazon, or as a PDF.

Quote from: jeff37923;308417@Darkeus

A d20 system that handles both vehicle combat and modern firearms well, plus could give you an edge on the more sci-fi aspects of RIFTS is d20 Traveller. If you just want to get a taste of the combat rules, you can download the free PDF of d20 Traveller Lite from either DriveThruRPG (http://rpg.drivethrustuff.com/product_info.php?products_id=28813&it=1) or RPGnow (http://www.rpgnow.com/product_info.php?products_id=28813&it=1).

The bad news is if you like the system, it is OOP. So you would have to pick the book up through ebay, Amazon, or as a PDF.

OOP but not Out of Stock.

Quote from: Caesar Slaad;308407D20 modern has some pretty lame firearm rules, particularly where fully automatic and burst fire weapons are concerned. For example, if you want to spray an area with bullets, it becomes an area attack that ignores armor.

Keep in mind that d20 Modern hit points are just as abstract as hit points in 3e D&D, so the idea that a hail of bullets blanketing an area is going to cause some kind of "damage," however that is defined by the circumstances, doesn't strain credulity any more than "evading" the effects of a fireball.

And to be specific, autofire targets a ten-by-ten area. The firing character must hit AC 10 for the autofire attack to work. All targets within the affected area make a Reflex save (DC 15); cover adds a bonus to the save roll, and there is no damage on a successful save.

It makes automatic weapons lethal, as they should be, and forces player to use smart tactics, which is desireable.

Quote from: Caesar SlaadI'm not real fond of the unarmed combat rules, either. Two untrained combatants could fight all day and not hurt each other.

The key word here is "untrained."

Two boneheads bruising their knuckles on each other are going to go round and round until one of them scores a critical hit (i.e., causes damage that exceeds the massive damage threshold - CON score - of the other character). If you take a couple of feats so that your character isn't just some untrained bonehead, however, your character can be a regular ass-kicker, lethally or non-lethally.

Personally I like d20 Modern very much. I really like the basic classes, I think it plays fast, and it's amazingly versatile. There's good support for many different genres - I treat most of the Game Mechanics' stuff as core, and some of the RPGObjects stuff is pretty good.

Savage Worlds is way better than Traveller and Hero System, IMAO.

Quote from: The Shaman;308566The key word here is "untrained."

Two boneheads bruising their knuckles on each other are going to go round and round until one of them scores a critical hit (i.e., causes damage that exceeds the massive damage threshold - CON score - of the other character). If you take a couple of feats so that your character isn't just some untrained bonehead, however, your character can be a regular ass-kicker, lethally or non-lethally.

Not really.
premise; D20 unarmed combat don't do damage per se, but if your damge is equal or higher than the your Target CON he must make a DC15 Fort check or fall  unconscious for 1D6 rounds IIRC)
That said, without feats you make 1d3+STR nonlethal damage, this mean that IF you have 18 strength and IF you roll max damage and IF you roll a critical and IF you adversary have average CON you COULD have a chance to know him down if he fail his saving throw. If he have 11 con there is nothing you can do to him. Better pick up a two-by-four.
With the feat Brawl things go a little better, you make 1d6+STR non lethal, with max damage you can knock down an average 10 CON guy and with a crit you have a chance to put down tougher enemies,and with improved brawl you make 1d8 + STR, making you chances still better, but still with the use of two feats and a maximized stat and you still need to wait for a critical to do something useful it is a little lame.This or you take combat martial arts, now you are considered armed (with brawl and imp. brawl you are not) and deal 1d4 either lethal or nonlethal as you like. But when I make a character like Dick Tracy or John McLane you don't want to make them martial artists, they don't use martial arts, they punch people in the face, and you should not have to give them 18+STR to make them not suck at it.

QuotePersonally I like d20 Modern very much. I really like the basic classes, I think it plays fast, and it's amazingly versatile. There's good support for many different genres - I treat most of the Game Mechanics' stuff as core, and some of the RPGObjects stuff is pretty good.

Agree, even with his little flaws D20 modern is still my favorite D20 incarnations, I especially like the way they handle magic, i like the spellcasters as advanced class and urban arcana incantations are how Rituals should have been made. Actually I'd like to see a fantasy version/adaptation of D20 modern, with base classes for the first level and then advanced classes like Barbarian or Rogue or Paladin. I hoped for 4e to be something like it, but *sigh*... :(

Rather than d20 Modern for Rifts, why not Star Wars Saga? Familiar d20 system, has blasters and guns, has the force for magic, handles scale for human to ship combats, and it plays fairly fast.

Just a thought.

Quote from: The Shaman;308566Keep in mind that d20 Modern hit points are just as abstract as hit points in 3e D&D, so the idea that a hail of bullets blanketing an area is going to cause some kind of "damage," however that is defined by the circumstances, doesn't strain credulity any more than "evading" the effects of a fireball.

And to be specific, autofire targets a ten-by-ten area. The firing character must hit AC 10 for the autofire attack to work. All targets within the affected area make a Reflex save (DC 15); cover adds a bonus to the save roll, and there is no damage on a successful save.

It makes automatic weapons lethal, as they should be, and forces player to use smart tactics, which is desireable.

What here justifies taking armor out of the equation? I'm missing it.

Yes, being the target of full automatic weapons fire is not a happy state of being. Which is why we issue troops body armor. But D20 modern makes it pointless.

QuoteThe key word here is "untrained."

Two boneheads bruising their knuckles on each other are going to go round and round until one of them scores a critical hit (i.e., causes damage that exceeds the massive damage threshold - CON score - of the other character).

Okay, if you crit, you do double. By my count, even 2d3 is never going to beat an average CON of 10. If your are pretty damn strong (16+), you MIGHT be able to knock someone out with a crit, if you are lucky.

Having an 18 strength puts the odds about where you'd think they would be. But now we are talking about an immense strength versus an average joe on a crit.

Even if you accept that, still, we are talking about crits. Any such fight is going to take way too long.

The odds are bent. IRL, any 2 yokels can get in a barfight and there is going to be a winner. You don't have to be Mike Tyson.

These rules are so bad, in fact, I've noticed some instances of books for the game (including an official WotC one) that pretty much ignore the D20 modern nonlethal damage rules.

QuoteIf you take a couple of feats so that your character isn't just some untrained bonehead, however, your character can be a regular ass-kicker, lethally or non-lethally.

Yep, that's my point. You have to be a trained pugilist to get in a fist fight and have a hope of it ending from other than boredom. That's bent.

Quote from: enelson;308614Rather than d20 Modern for Rifts, why not Star Wars Saga? Familiar d20 system, has blasters and guns, has the force for magic, handles scale for human to ship combats, and it plays fairly fast.

Good call.

Quote from: Just Another User;308609Agree, even with his little flaws D20 modern is still my favorite D20 incarnations, I especially like the way they handle magic, i like the spellcasters as advanced class and urban arcana incantations are how Rituals should have been made. Actually I'd like to see a fantasy version/adaptation of D20 modern, with base classes for the first level and then advanced classes like Barbarian or Rogue or Paladin. I hoped for 4e to be something like it, but *sigh*... :(

I recall having similar hopes for 4e, would have likely preferred it to 4e, despite my affection for the system as is.

^agreed SWSE might be the best for what you're doing

Quote from: enelson;308614Rather than d20 Modern for Rifts, why not Star Wars Saga? Familiar d20 system, has blasters and guns, has the force for magic, handles scale for human to ship combats, and it plays fairly fast.

Just a thought.

Never thought about it..  Good call..  But then, wouldn't d20 Future handle some of this?  I mean, there are a HUGE amount of systems that can be used for Rifts.  I personally was looking at Framewerk (The CthulhuTech system) for a while.  Still am really as it has rules that can cover a lot of things in Rifts.  Not all of it though and that is the problem.  

That is a good idea though.

Quote from: Caesar Slaad;308622What here justifies taking armor out of the equation? I'm missing it.

Try to imagine my surprise.

Quote from: Caesar SlaadYes, being the target of full automatic weapons fire is not a happy state of being. Which is why we issue troops body armor. But D20 modern makes it pointless.

Bollocks.

It makes armor less effective against autofire, which makes sense: put enough fire on the target, and the chances increase that a round will get past or through the armor. I have no problem with how this is conceived.

Much more importantly, it plays well. How do you boost your Reflex save against autofire? Find cover. It encourages smart play.

Quote from: Caesar SlaadOkay, if you crit, you do double. By my count, even 2d3 is never going to beat an average CON of 10. If your are pretty damn strong (16+), you MIGHT be able to knock someone out with a crit, if you are lucky.

Having an 18 strength puts the odds about where you'd think they would be. But now we are talking about an immense strength versus an average joe on a crit.

What part of UNTRAINED do you not understand?

A big lug with no skill may knock someone out. Two shmoes are just going to annoy each other. Again, I have no problem with the concept.

Quote from: Caesar SlaadEven if you accept that, still, we are talking about crits. Any such fight is going to take way too long.

Which is why if you're UNTRAINED you're better off picking up something and hitting with that instead.

Again, the concept works for me.

Quote from: Caesar SlaadThe odds are bent. IRL, any 2 yokels can get in a barfight and there is going to be a winner. You don't have to be Mike Tyson.

In my rl experience the loser is going to be the guy who gives up first because he doesn't want to get hit anymore, or who runs away.

Your mileage may do whatever it is your mileage does.

Quote from: Caesar SlaadThese rules are so bad . . .

No, they're not "bad." You don't like them. And you are not the benchmark for what is good and bad in roleplaying games.

Quote from: Caesar Slaad. . . in fact, I've noticed some instances of books for the game (including an official WotC one) that pretty much ignore the D20 modern nonlethal damage rules.

The Whizbros book that doesn't follow Modern's own rules is d20 Past, as I pointed out in a critique (http://www.enworld.org/forum/2772558-post7.html) of the supplement.

That's one of myriad problems with that particular supplement. Hiring writers who knew nothing about . . . well, a lot of things, but in particular the rules of the game for which they were writing pretty much underscores in red felt-tip my low opinion of Whizbros.

Quote from: Caesar SlaadYou have to be a trained pugilist to get in a fist fight and have a hope of it ending from other than boredom. That's bent.

No, if your character is UNTRAINED, you have to rethink how you're going to end the fight.

You seem to think that there should only be one solution to brawling. I like the fact that d20 Modern stands that assumption on its head, because it leads to more creative and interesting play, in my experience.

Quote from: The Shaman;308686It makes armor less effective against autofire, which makes sense: put enough fire on the target, and the chances increase that a round will get past or through the armor. I have no problem with how this is conceived.

I can get that your chances of getting hurt are higher. That makes sense.

Armor being irrelevant does not make sense.

QuoteAgain, the concept works for me.In my rl experience the loser is going to be the guy who gives up first because he doesn't want to get hit anymore, or who runs away.

Why does he run away? Because he's getting beaten and bruised. Something D20 modern totally fails to represent.

QuoteNo, they're not "bad." You don't like them. And you are not the benchmark for what is good and bad in roleplaying games.

Heh. Okay. I'm not trying to convince you. You've demonstrated that illustrating any slight to you regarding D20 modern is a fool's errand.

We'll let the audience decide if a system that doesn't let untrained pugilists affect each other and makes armor meaningless against autofire is good or not. Mkay?

QuoteThe Whizbros book that doesn't follow Modern's own rules is d20 Past, as I pointed out in a critique (http://www.enworld.org/forum/2772558-post7.html) of the supplement.

That's one of myriad problems with that particular supplement.

FYI, I don't even own D20 past. I was alluding to Menace Manual, a book that I would call WotC's BEST supplement for the game.

Shaman, the problem with the brawl feat tree is that it require an excessive specialization to not be a waste of feats, you need not only two feat but a strength score of at least 16 to make it viable, and even then count to much on critical hits to be reliable. As I said I can remember a number of character in comics, fiction and movies that could hold their own into a fistcuff and not every one of them would have a 16+ STR score.

Quote from: Caesar Slaad;308845I can get that your chances of getting hurt are higher. That makes sense.

Armor being irrelevant does not make sense.

The rationale is, put enough lead in the air, and the armor does indeed become irrelevant.

If that strains your credibility, fine. I have no problem with it myself, because like hit points, it's an abstraction, one designed to encourage a particular style of tactical play. Since I like that play-style, I'm fine with the rules-as-written.

Quote from: Caesar SlaadWhy does he run away? Because he's getting beaten and bruised. Something D20 modern totally fails to represent.

Because he hurts, or because he's afraid. That varies with everyone's pain threshold and willingness to take a punch, psychological factors that aren't addressed in many game rules.

Either way, it's not because of a knockout.

Quote from: Caesar SlaadHeh. Okay. I'm not trying to convince you. You've demonstrated that illustrating any slight to you regarding D20 modern is a fool's errand.

Project much? (http://www.therpgsite.com/showpost.php?p=300973&postcount=16)

Quote from: Caesar SlaadWe'll let the audience decide if a system that doesn't let untrained pugilists affect each other and makes armor meaningless against autofire is good or not. Mkay?

Fine by me.

At least now they have two sides of an argument to consider.

I do recommend trying it before dismissing it out-of-hand.

Or at least reading it for myself to see if it is as bad as people say.. :)

I enjoy the differences of opinion though.  

I mean, if you are untrained at fighting you should have a problem hitting each other.   Ever seen two people fighting in real life that can't fight at all?  It is quite funny actually, usually they just flail away at each other and throw punches that will probably break their own hands before doing any damage to the other person.  That is if they even hit each other.  

Hell, when I was in high school I was in a fight where me and the other guy did not land one punch on each other.  I took Karate and he was one of the most feared fighters in school.  We were far from untrained.  D20 modern is probably a little much for an RPG but it sounds quite realistic.

Now the Autofire rules sound a little off but I will have to see how they work.  Again, if dealing with Real life statistics, autofire does reduce the effectiveness of armor.  It is all about how many bullets you can put in the air.  Where is the armor protecting?  If it is just a bulletproof vest then that leaves 50% of the body still exposed.  Maybe less, maybe more.  If it is a full set of armor, the right caliber of bullet will still make your armor worthless.

I don't like the martial arts I must say.  Too many prerequisites for each feat.

Quote from: Darkeus;308329So I have heard some bad things and I have heard some good things about d20 Modern and its related sourcebooks.

What is the opinion around here?

I used d20 Modern for both the new editions of Fringeworthy and Bureau 13.  Creating the base classes on the stats makes a lot of sense and the use of advanced classes lets you focus the character on certain special abilities to provide the opportunity to excel at different tasks than the other characters

Of course this assumes you like the d20 concept.

we moved from a skill based system to this one with no ill effects, but it was a move from gritty to heroic.

Coming from some third edition D&D at the time, I expected to like it somewhat. But it turned out very poorly. No-one liked the classes or most of the combat, though other game mechanics were considered acceptable (skills, feats, and talents as a concept, for example.) Actually, talent trees appealed greatly, to me in particular, and when I hopped online I found I was one of a multitude in this regard.

With some heavy hammering and chiselling work, it could be made serviceable for its intended use.

Quote from: paris80;309135Coming from some third edition D&D at the time, I expected to like it somewhat. But it turned out very poorly.

I had the exact opposite reaction: d20 Modern was a substantial improvement over 3e for me.

Quote from: The Shaman;309153I had the exact opposite reaction: d20 Modern was a substantial improvement over 3e for me.

This is the same for me as well.  I prefer d20 Modern over 3.x Dungeons & Dragons.

I didn't care for D20 modern at all.

RPGPundit

Quote from: Darkeus;309062I mean, if you are untrained at fighting you should have a problem hitting each other.   Ever seen two people fighting in real life that can't fight at all?  It is quite funny actually, usually they just flail away at each other and throw punches that will probably break their own hands before doing any damage to the other person.  That is if they even hit each other.  . . . Now the Autofire rules sound a little off but I will have to see how they work.  Again, if dealing with Real life statistics, autofire does reduce the effectiveness of armor.  It is all about how many bullets you can put in the air.  Where is the armor protecting?  If it is just a bulletproof vest then that leaves 50% of the body still exposed.  Maybe less, maybe more.  If it is a full set of armor, the right caliber of bullet will still make your armor worthless.

QFT.

Quote from: DarkeusI don't like the martial arts I must say.  Too many prerequisites for each feat.

This is a problem I have with most d20 games.

I did shorten a couple of feat trees in different campaigns.

I think one of the expectations in d20 Modern is that most martial artists are going to take levels in the Martial Artist AdC at some point, and the class abilities provide some of the oomph.

There are a couple of thrid-party martial arts systems as well. Many people speak well of RPG Objects' Blood and Fists; for a couple of my games I used The Game Mechanics' Martial Arts Mayhem; in order to add a little bit more specialization to martial artists.