Quote from: RPGPundit;306482or if there is a third way that involves creating things like physical gaming clubs that provide that community element (and maybe even some of the commercial element).

RPGPundit

The most successful small businesses I've seen were primarily game clubs that sold snacks and sold some game support. Unfortunately, they too have proven to be susceptable to the mismanagement by social retards who drive themselves out of business.

Quote from: Tommy Brownell;306477My gamer friends and I meet at one of our houses, and not out in a public place.

I don't purchase items in game stores anymore, because I don't play D&D4e, Exalted or New World of Darkness.

I can't say as I otherwise give much thought to game stores anymore.

What he said.

As a business proposition, they make sense only in certain locations in large metro areas if run well.

Face it, they serve a small genre hobby which is steadily being dominated by the Net. With rpg.Now & drive-thru pdf products, plus the pdf pirate sites, plus the half-price book stores, plus chains like Hastings carrying the 'big' RPG lines.

One of my gamers used to own the LFGS, which dealt in comic books, CCGs, RPGs, action figures, click-base games, art books, the whole nine yards.

The thing was, RPG sales were no cash flow. CCGs and click-base games, & comic books brought in the money, because a collector has to have them, whereas a gaming group will often have two copies of the core rules between a GM and 4-5 players (speaking as a GM who hasn't bought a hard-copy game book in many years, and who runs campaigns that don't require the players buying books).

In the end, overhead and the ability of the chain stores to underprice him on the 'main lines' of RPGs and CCGs/Click-base killed his business.

In 1992, there were fourteen game stores within 120 miles of my home. Today, there are none.

One of the best game stores that I have been in is Captain Nemo's Comics and Games in San Luis Obispo, CA.

They have mini games, board games, and RPGs. They buy/sell used games in addition to selling what's new. Their stock of new is moderate in specific title counts but they have a good variety.

They also sell comics, DVDs, CDs, and console games as well.

Diversity of product is the key to a modern LGS. That and having an online presence.

Space for gaming is a plus, but not a necessity for store success.

My FLGS closed down due to the owner wanting to concentrate on his other two stores.   I have two LGS that are not doing well.  Why you ask?  Mostly because they are not F.  (I do have two FLGS, but they are quite a distance for me, so trips are infrequent.)

FLGS are the centers of their local gaming community in many ways.  Sure the FLGS is not responsible for the community, but it is in their best interest to support them.  

Now, more than ever, when we can get all our products on-line and "Big-Book" stroes selling things (and at discounts for all hardcovers), we don't need them as much.  AT least not in terms of getting product.

What do we need them for?  Seeing "new things" and being able to look a it before you buy it.  Hearing other gamers, *whom you know, have had time to talk with, and can read their body language) talk about a game, campaign, product, or what ever.  It is a place to meet other games (even if it is casually or unplanned).  It is a place to get your "gamer fix" when mundanity gets to you. You can pick up convention fliers and sometimes books.  It is a place where you know you will find some sci-fi/ fantasy fans and can talk about the newest movie.  It is a place to see new things.  It should have a table or three in back for campaigning or minis.  (These demos drive sales.)

If the FLGS can get us in the store for any number of reasons, we are more likely to spend our money there, instead of somewhere else.  (In some ways, it is like a sports franchise. Yes it is a business, but it needs to cultivate fans (customers) and fan loyalty (to keep them).

Quote from: MoonHunter;307486What do we need them for?  Seeing "new things" and being able to look a it before you buy it.

This. Not just new things, but also old out of print cheap stuff. I've made quite a few impulse purchases from seeing something rare in a shop and thumbing through it that I wouldn't if my shopping was done purely online.

I think the type of game being played is also important.  I've no real desire to play an RPG in-store; on the other hand, I'm a big miniatures gamer, and a having local hub where we can meet and break out the toy soldiers is invaluable.

For wargamers the FLGS or something similar still makes a lot of sense. It makes the wargamers approachable by outsiders and gives a common meeting ground. I game weekly at a store (warmachine).
On the other hand, stores suck. It takes ages to order something. The sales person usually is fatbeard who goes on and on about his favourite system or WoW, ignoring customers and some of the regulars are foul smelling creatures right from the cliche ponds where all gamers in metal shirts with bad hygiene come from.
It makes supporting the shop quite difficult, because I cannot in good conscience place an order there (it once took them 4 weeks to get me a can of black spraycoat and a friend of mine is now waiting for some miniatures for 10 weeks... simply unbelievable), on the other hand I of course want to support the store as I use their tables.
Luckily they got snacks and drinks for sale, so I can do my "share" that way.

Now that I typed it all, I must say that the negative points weigh more for me. Perhaps I should see into founding some kind of gaming club and getting rooms at the university.

The FLGS here is having a closing out sale.

Quote from: (un)reason;307492This. Not just new things, but also old out of print cheap stuff. I've made quite a few impulse purchases from seeing something rare in a shop and thumbing through it that I wouldn't if my shopping was done purely online.

This is the reason I like the FLGS as well.  If I know what I'm looking for then I can go online and order it if, but I've purchased a lot of games just by browsing at the FLGS that I wouldn't have purchased otherwise.  Actually that is the way I got my first D&D boxed set back in the 70's.

I have the same issue with bookstores versus Amazon.

Quote from: Grimjack;307642This is the reason I like the FLGS as well.  If I know what I'm looking for then I can go online and order it if, but I've purchased a lot of games just by browsing at the FLGS that I wouldn't have purchased otherwise.  Actually that is the way I got my first D&D boxed set back in the 70's.

I have the same issue with bookstores versus Amazon.

....speaking of that.....

I am working the closing shift tonight if you want to stop by and check out what we have and our terrain tables. Yes, I remember that you live on the other side of town.

Saturday morning I have the opening shift.

Ed C.

Quote from: (un)reason;307492This. Not just new things, but also old out of print cheap stuff. I've made quite a few impulse purchases from seeing something rare in a shop and thumbing through it that I wouldn't if my shopping was done purely online.

This used to be my answer.

Then stores around here stopped carrying anything that wasn't D&D4e, nWoD or Exalted.  I can't even find a good used games section anymore...so online it is for me.  Now I appreciate publishers that toss up PDF samples on RPGnow...=P

Quote from: Tommy Brownell;307749This used to be my answer.

Then stores around here stopped carrying anything that wasn't D&D4e, nWoD or Exalted.  I can't even find a good used games section anymore...so online it is for me.

QFT

The fact is almost all the old, cool game stores of the 80s and 90s died off or were bought out by some jackass.  Now all that's left is newer stores that don't like to have inventory.  The days of the big stores with massive amounts of inventory spanning many years are gone for the most part (with stores like Games Plus being the exception).

Instead, all I see are newer stores with little to no RPG inventory.  No used gaming material, ever (I have to go to Half Price Books if I want that) - the only "old" stuff is usually left over D20 material from the glut of 2000 or whatever.  

Rarely ever do I see a store with support for more than 4 or so lines (most of which I can get cheaper by going in to a B&N store, much less ordering online).  And half the time they never fucking re-order anything anyways, so you end up with a few odd supplments sitting on the shelves for years (still at full price) while the core books are never in stock.

And they aren't laid out like a damn bookstore anymore like they should be, so browsing is easy.  No, no, no, can't have that.  Instead, they are filled with tables for mini gaming or card playing clogging up all the pathways, making it difficult to get from one fucking side to the other without having to plow one's way through whatever fatbeard or annoying little bastards happen to be hanging out that day.  And that's not even getting in to the sick bastard stores that like to shrinkwrap everything.  WTF is the point of a retail store if you can't browse?

But it doesn't matter anyways, because the fucking guy running the counter is usually off playing magic, playing minis, or chatting with his buds.  So you have to wait 15 fucking minutes for dumbass to come over and take your money.  I've seriously considered just walking out the door without paying before - not because I want to avoid paying, just because I'm curious if the fucking chump would even notice.


I absolutely loathe this new wave "clubhouse" mentality of gaming stores.  I don't want a store where people hang out.  I want a store that's like a bookstore where I can find a large selection of material to browse in peace.  If LGSes don't want to provide that, then fuck them - I can buy most everything cheaper online anyways.

Do they make sense for gamers?  Yes, but not the RPG types.  

RPGs do not lend themselves to what I'd call exhibition play because there is really nothing to them but people rolling dice and talking.  A spectator is not really going to be drawn to purchase anything because 5-6 people are sitting around a table with some loose papers, a few books and maybe a battle map.  They lack the instant visual stimulation that draws people in.

Board, Card, Click and traditional Wargames have something that is usually visually appealing to look at and can be appreciated by someone sort of like a model train set.  These 4 classes of games also lend themselves to the basic function of the store which is to sell things.  Having live gaming is like an advertisement for games the store sells and is a great way to get people to purchase what they see others playing.  Board games are one partial exception in that a "group" doesn't need several copies of the game to play but the other 3 types are very much buy, expand, buy more, type of endeavors.  Also these 4 types have defined winners and losers which lend themselves to tournament style play which is another way to get people in the store to play, watch, buy drinks & snacks and maybe pick up a game themselves.

My local store is Dr.No's and has been around since the late 1970s.  They now occupy two adjacent storefronts in the strip-mall they are in where they knocked out the dividing wall and have a large ~3000 square foot store.  It has comics, 5 or 6 tables for game play, 4 or 5 double sided bookshelves for RPGs, a wall of boardgames, tons of shelves full of collectibles, a large HDTV with an XBox 360 and plenty of sales counter space with glass displays full of cards and click stuff.  In short it is what one would think of the classic "games shop" of yesteryear.  They have lots of older gaming stuff such as the 2nd edition Star Wars WEG Imperial Sourcebook I picked up last week in addition to the newest WoD and D&D lines.  They certainly are not RPG focused but they have not relegated it to some single bookshelf in the back.  I don't go there to play RPGs nor to watch any, in fact I can only remember seeing one being played maybe twice in the years I've gone there.  I have however enjoyed watching what a game of Twilight Imperium or Arkham Horror looked like in play and have made several board game purchases over the years such as Formula De, Axis & Allies, etc.

In short I think RPGs and the FLGS are good for each other but neither is focused or requires the other to flourish.  Most RPGers also like board, card, minis or comics and the "game store" most certainly has some real benefits to those areas.  The other types of games really need a public presence to grow and sell well to one degree or another and RPGs are just along for ride when it comes to shelf space.

Quote from: jgants;307850QFT

The fact is almost all the old, cool game stores of the 80s and 90s died off or were bought out by some jackass.  Now all that's left is newer stores that don't like to have inventory.  The days of the big stores with massive amounts of inventory spanning many years are gone for the most part (with stores like Games Plus being the exception).

Instead, all I see are newer stores with little to no RPG inventory.  No used gaming material, ever (I have to go to Half Price Books if I want that) - the only "old" stuff is usually left over D20 material from the glut of 2000 or whatever.  

Rarely ever do I see a store with support for more than 4 or so lines (most of which I can get cheaper by going in to a B&N store, much less ordering online).  And half the time they never fucking re-order anything anyways, so you end up with a few odd supplments sitting on the shelves for years (still at full price) while the core books are never in stock.

And they aren't laid out like a damn bookstore anymore like they should be, so browsing is easy.  No, no, no, can't have that.  Instead, they are filled with tables for mini gaming or card playing clogging up all the pathways, making it difficult to get from one fucking side to the other without having to plow one's way through whatever fatbeard or annoying little bastards happen to be hanging out that day.  And that's not even getting in to the sick bastard stores that like to shrinkwrap everything.  WTF is the point of a retail store if you can't browse?

But it doesn't matter anyways, because the fucking guy running the counter is usually off playing magic, playing minis, or chatting with his buds.  So you have to wait 15 fucking minutes for dumbass to come over and take your money.  I've seriously considered just walking out the door without paying before - not because I want to avoid paying, just because I'm curious if the fucking chump would even notice.


I absolutely loathe this new wave "clubhouse" mentality of gaming stores.  I don't want a store where people hang out.  I want a store that's like a bookstore where I can find a large selection of material to browse in peace.  If LGSes don't want to provide that, then fuck them - I can buy most everything cheaper online anyways.

Well said.

That's the sort of environment that has killed nearly every FLGS within a two-hour drive. The Net finished the rest.