Is it worth "saving"? And if not, what should it be replaced by? Nothing? Just online community?
RPGPundit
In the Midwest the FLGS serves as a de facto game club. Some days I think the hobby would be better served by clubs that serve as defacto stores.
Quote from: jrients;306409In the Midwest the FLGS serves as a de facto game club. Some days I think the hobby would be better served by clubs that serve as defacto stores.
That is mostly what we get springing up around here. The selection is terrible, the place is tiny, and the 'owner(s)' are clearly using it as a tax dodge so they have a place to flip cards. And they disappear as quickly as they arrive. Not really the best alternative.
The one place here that has been around forever has game tables, a good selection of RPGs, all kinds of CCG product, and a fair number of board games. The store is clean, the employees helpful, and the location is somewhat accessible.
Quote from: RPGPundit;306407Is it worth "saving"? And if not, what should it be replaced by? Nothing? Just online community?
Game stores are vital to both the industry and the hobby. The stores who are surviving have realized they must become centers for gaming gatherings.
Online "communities" are bullshit. People sit down at tables at game stores and actually play games instead of just bitching about how they're confused how its not 1983 or whining about some rule in a game they will never actually play.
FLGS are a necessity. Gamers play face-to-face, thus gamers must meet face-to-face. Thus, gamers must have a place to meet face-to-face nearby.
And, if gamers have a place to buy stuff, they will go there. If it has tables, they will meet and play games. And people will go in the FLGS, wondering what it is about. And thus, a new generation of gamers is born.
My LGS is far from F, so I can't give an unbiased opinion. I'd be happy to see them go under, and I'll buy from Amazon.
I think they need to change with the times. The best game store I'm nearest to is Games Plus in Mount Prospect. They most likely own the building they are occupying, run a successful online business (selling the same products), and offer a boutique experience similar to many high end retailers. They also have a huge selection of older and more obscure stuff (historical minis being a big one).
A game store needs to be more of a place to play, get together, and buy supplies and things. Of course supporting local business is always a good thing, so people should shop at a game store. Special orders are NOT the way to do business anymore. If I want to wait for something, I'll get it cheaper and have it sent to my house. A store needs to be large (like Games Plus) in order to have a ton of stock AND a large and useful gaming space.
Game stores are not useful for community, since most don't have one - they're a business, not a social club. They're not useful for creating new gamers, since most gamers are made by current gamers, a sort of apprenticeship system.
Game stores are useful for offering physical products, and for giving gamers some enthusiasm for it. You just feel more gamerish standing in a store full of books and dice and figurines than you do on the train or something. You page through all the books and think of the wonderful possibilities of play. Keeping that enthusiasm up is important; not keeping it up is why so many people play a lot at say university, but then ten years later never touch dice again.
Game stores are mostly small businesses, and like most small businesses are pretty poorly-run. Gamers have no duty to make game stores survive, anymore than diners have a duty to make restaurants survive, or book readers have a duty to make bookstores survive, etc. This idea of a duty to save a business from itself shows a distressing streak of communism in Westerners. If the game store is well-run then it'll prosper, and deserves to. If it's a shithole then it'll perish like so many other small businesses, and good riddance, it deserves to perish.
I disagree about supporting local business being communistic, Mr. Aaron. I agree that I would not patronize a shitty store, but I like being a member of my community, and supporting those business in my community that cater to my wants and needs. I don't see how that's communist.
Quote from: joewolz;306462I think they need to change with the times. The best game store I'm nearest to is Games Plus in Mount Prospect.
Games Plus is indeed a spectacular store. I've had the pleasure of visiting it a couple of times during trips to the Chicago area.
Sadly, it is by far the exception. Most games stores I see have marginalized RPGs so much, it barely makes sense to visit them (there is a halfway decent store in town that opened up recently, though it is still far from Games Plus quality). All too many of them barely have more than one or two different lines, with most of the store devoted to mini and card games.
As I've said before, if they don't have a RPG section bigger than a large chain bookstore, there's no point for me. I want to be able to browse things I'm not sure if I want (as I've said many times before, I could care less about the socialization aspect - I've rarely if ever met anyone I've wanted to game with at a store, nor gamed at a store).
Quote from: joewolz;306474I agree that I would not patronize a shitty store, but I like being a member of my community, and supporting those business in my community that cater to my wants and needs. I don't see how that's communist.
It's not.
I said that we have no
duty to any particular business - local or not. Where we
choose to spend our money is up to us. But sometimes you'll hear people say, "you should support your local game store," or "if we're thrifty, then what about the economy?" We have no
duty to spend money in general, and certainly not to spend it at any particular place.
If they're good, local or not, they'll do well. If they're not, they won't.
It's the idea that we have a
duty to spend money, or to keep a particular person employed however unproductive they are, or a particular shop or factory open however poor their service and products,
that's where we see the communist strain in the West come in.
My gamer friends and I meet at one of our houses, and not out in a public place.
I don't purchase items in game stores anymore, because I don't play D&D4e, Exalted or New World of Darkness.
I can't say as I otherwise give much thought to game stores anymore.
Quote from: RPGPundit;306407Is it worth "saving"? And if not, what should it be replaced by? Nothing? Just online community?
RPGPundit
You
WOULD start this thread while I was at the game store on the closing shift...
....and of corse their worth saving - the better ones are.
- Ed C.
The thing is that the Gaming Store is not "community", or not meant to be, its meant to be a business; but essentially (in north america at least) it tends to become a de-facto source for community.
Only, more often than not it really sucks as community. The thing I think people are afraid of losing if the FLGSes go under is not Fatbeard-comicbookguys trying to sell you overpriced stuff and bad attitudes, what they're afraid of losing is that (however tenuous) concept of a physical place for the gaming community to meet and communicate.
So the real question is whether the only two alternatives are Gaming stores (some of which are ok at doing the community thing, and others that utterly suck at it), or online-community only; or if there is a third way that involves creating things like physical gaming clubs that provide that community element (and maybe even some of the commercial element).
RPGPundit
Personally I think the local gaming store is great. I like being able to physically see the product I am about to shell out my hard-earned for is a plus for me, especially for my gaming related addictions of dice and miniatures.
That said I've never been a fan of them as a community substitute, except in one store that was more club than store.
Quote from: RPGPundit;306482or if there is a third way that involves creating things like physical gaming clubs that provide that community element (and maybe even some of the commercial element).
RPGPundit
The most successful small businesses I've seen were primarily game clubs that sold snacks and sold some game support. Unfortunately, they too have proven to be susceptable to the mismanagement by social retards who drive themselves out of business.
Quote from: Tommy Brownell;306477My gamer friends and I meet at one of our houses, and not out in a public place.
I don't purchase items in game stores anymore, because I don't play D&D4e, Exalted or New World of Darkness.
I can't say as I otherwise give much thought to game stores anymore.
What he said.
As a business proposition, they make sense only in certain locations in large metro areas if run well.
Face it, they serve a small genre hobby which is steadily being dominated by the Net. With rpg.Now & drive-thru pdf products, plus the pdf pirate sites, plus the half-price book stores, plus chains like Hastings carrying the 'big' RPG lines.
One of my gamers used to own the LFGS, which dealt in comic books, CCGs, RPGs, action figures, click-base games, art books, the whole nine yards.
The thing was, RPG sales were no cash flow. CCGs and click-base games, & comic books brought in the money, because a collector has to have them, whereas a gaming group will often have two copies of the core rules between a GM and 4-5 players (speaking as a GM who hasn't bought a hard-copy game book in many years, and who runs campaigns that don't require the players buying books).
In the end, overhead and the ability of the chain stores to underprice him on the 'main lines' of RPGs and CCGs/Click-base killed his business.
In 1992, there were fourteen game stores within 120 miles of my home. Today, there are none.
One of the best game stores that I have been in is Captain Nemo's Comics and Games in San Luis Obispo, CA.
They have mini games, board games, and RPGs. They buy/sell used games in addition to selling what's new. Their stock of new is moderate in specific title counts but they have a good variety.
They also sell comics, DVDs, CDs, and console games as well.
Diversity of product is the key to a modern LGS. That and having an online presence.
Space for gaming is a plus, but not a necessity for store success.
My FLGS closed down due to the owner wanting to concentrate on his other two stores. I have two LGS that are not doing well. Why you ask? Mostly because they are not F. (I do have two FLGS, but they are quite a distance for me, so trips are infrequent.)
FLGS are the centers of their local gaming community in many ways. Sure the FLGS is not responsible for the community, but it is in their best interest to support them.
Now, more than ever, when we can get all our products on-line and "Big-Book" stroes selling things (and at discounts for all hardcovers), we don't need them as much. AT least not in terms of getting product.
What do we need them for? Seeing "new things" and being able to look a it before you buy it. Hearing other gamers, *whom you know, have had time to talk with, and can read their body language) talk about a game, campaign, product, or what ever. It is a place to meet other games (even if it is casually or unplanned). It is a place to get your "gamer fix" when mundanity gets to you. You can pick up convention fliers and sometimes books. It is a place where you know you will find some sci-fi/ fantasy fans and can talk about the newest movie. It is a place to see new things. It should have a table or three in back for campaigning or minis. (These demos drive sales.)
If the FLGS can get us in the store for any number of reasons, we are more likely to spend our money there, instead of somewhere else. (In some ways, it is like a sports franchise. Yes it is a business, but it needs to cultivate fans (customers) and fan loyalty (to keep them).
Quote from: MoonHunter;307486What do we need them for? Seeing "new things" and being able to look a it before you buy it.
This. Not just new things, but also old out of print cheap stuff. I've made quite a few impulse purchases from seeing something rare in a shop and thumbing through it that I wouldn't if my shopping was done purely online.
I think the type of game being played is also important. I've no real desire to play an RPG in-store; on the other hand, I'm a big miniatures gamer, and a having local hub where we can meet and break out the toy soldiers is invaluable.
For wargamers the FLGS or something similar still makes a lot of sense. It makes the wargamers approachable by outsiders and gives a common meeting ground. I game weekly at a store (warmachine).
On the other hand, stores suck. It takes ages to order something. The sales person usually is fatbeard who goes on and on about his favourite system or WoW, ignoring customers and some of the regulars are foul smelling creatures right from the cliche ponds where all gamers in metal shirts with bad hygiene come from.
It makes supporting the shop quite difficult, because I cannot in good conscience place an order there (it once took them 4 weeks to get me a can of black spraycoat and a friend of mine is now waiting for some miniatures for 10 weeks... simply unbelievable), on the other hand I of course want to support the store as I use their tables.
Luckily they got snacks and drinks for sale, so I can do my "share" that way.
Now that I typed it all, I must say that the negative points weigh more for me. Perhaps I should see into founding some kind of gaming club and getting rooms at the university.
The FLGS here is having a closing out sale.
Quote from: (un)reason;307492This. Not just new things, but also old out of print cheap stuff. I've made quite a few impulse purchases from seeing something rare in a shop and thumbing through it that I wouldn't if my shopping was done purely online.
This is the reason I like the FLGS as well. If I know what I'm looking for then I can go online and order it if, but I've purchased a lot of games just by browsing at the FLGS that I wouldn't have purchased otherwise. Actually that is the way I got my first D&D boxed set back in the 70's.
I have the same issue with bookstores versus Amazon.
Quote from: Grimjack;307642This is the reason I like the FLGS as well. If I know what I'm looking for then I can go online and order it if, but I've purchased a lot of games just by browsing at the FLGS that I wouldn't have purchased otherwise. Actually that is the way I got my first D&D boxed set back in the 70's.
I have the same issue with bookstores versus Amazon.
....speaking of that.....I am working the closing shift tonight if you want to stop by and check out what we have and our terrain tables. Yes, I remember that you live on the other side of town.
Saturday morning I have the opening shift.
Ed C.
Quote from: (un)reason;307492This. Not just new things, but also old out of print cheap stuff. I've made quite a few impulse purchases from seeing something rare in a shop and thumbing through it that I wouldn't if my shopping was done purely online.
This used to be my answer.
Then stores around here stopped carrying anything that wasn't D&D4e, nWoD or Exalted. I can't even find a good used games section anymore...so online it is for me. Now I appreciate publishers that toss up PDF samples on RPGnow...=P
Quote from: Tommy Brownell;307749This used to be my answer.
Then stores around here stopped carrying anything that wasn't D&D4e, nWoD or Exalted. I can't even find a good used games section anymore...so online it is for me.
QFT
The fact is almost all the old, cool game stores of the 80s and 90s died off or were bought out by some jackass. Now all that's left is newer stores that don't like to have inventory. The days of the big stores with massive amounts of inventory spanning many years are gone for the most part (with stores like Games Plus being the exception).
Instead, all I see are newer stores with little to no RPG inventory. No used gaming material, ever (I have to go to Half Price Books if I want that) - the only "old" stuff is usually left over D20 material from the glut of 2000 or whatever.
Rarely ever do I see a store with support for more than 4 or so lines (most of which I can get cheaper by going in to a B&N store, much less ordering online). And half the time they never fucking re-order anything anyways, so you end up with a few odd supplments sitting on the shelves for years (still at full price) while the core books are never in stock.
And they aren't laid out like a damn bookstore anymore like they should be, so browsing is easy. No, no, no, can't have that. Instead, they are filled with tables for mini gaming or card playing clogging up all the pathways, making it difficult to get from one fucking side to the other without having to plow one's way through whatever fatbeard or annoying little bastards happen to be hanging out that day. And that's not even getting in to the sick bastard stores that like to shrinkwrap everything. WTF is the point of a retail store if you can't browse?
But it doesn't matter anyways, because the fucking guy running the counter is usually off playing magic, playing minis, or chatting with his buds. So you have to wait 15 fucking minutes for dumbass to come over and take your money. I've seriously considered just walking out the door without paying before - not because I want to avoid paying, just because I'm curious if the fucking chump would even notice.
I absolutely loathe this new wave "clubhouse" mentality of gaming stores. I don't want a store where people hang out. I want a store that's like a bookstore where I can find a large selection of material to browse in peace. If LGSes don't want to provide that, then fuck them - I can buy most everything cheaper online anyways.
Do they make sense for gamers? Yes, but not the RPG types.
RPGs do not lend themselves to what I'd call exhibition play because there is really nothing to them but people rolling dice and talking. A spectator is not really going to be drawn to purchase anything because 5-6 people are sitting around a table with some loose papers, a few books and maybe a battle map. They lack the instant visual stimulation that draws people in.
Board, Card, Click and traditional Wargames have something that is usually visually appealing to look at and can be appreciated by someone sort of like a model train set. These 4 classes of games also lend themselves to the basic function of the store which is to sell things. Having live gaming is like an advertisement for games the store sells and is a great way to get people to purchase what they see others playing. Board games are one partial exception in that a "group" doesn't need several copies of the game to play but the other 3 types are very much buy, expand, buy more, type of endeavors. Also these 4 types have defined winners and losers which lend themselves to tournament style play which is another way to get people in the store to play, watch, buy drinks & snacks and maybe pick up a game themselves.
My local store is Dr.No's and has been around since the late 1970s. They now occupy two adjacent storefronts in the strip-mall they are in where they knocked out the dividing wall and have a large ~3000 square foot store. It has comics, 5 or 6 tables for game play, 4 or 5 double sided bookshelves for RPGs, a wall of boardgames, tons of shelves full of collectibles, a large HDTV with an XBox 360 and plenty of sales counter space with glass displays full of cards and click stuff. In short it is what one would think of the classic "games shop" of yesteryear. They have lots of older gaming stuff such as the 2nd edition Star Wars WEG Imperial Sourcebook I picked up last week in addition to the newest WoD and D&D lines. They certainly are not RPG focused but they have not relegated it to some single bookshelf in the back. I don't go there to play RPGs nor to watch any, in fact I can only remember seeing one being played maybe twice in the years I've gone there. I have however enjoyed watching what a game of Twilight Imperium or Arkham Horror looked like in play and have made several board game purchases over the years such as Formula De, Axis & Allies, etc.
In short I think RPGs and the FLGS are good for each other but neither is focused or requires the other to flourish. Most RPGers also like board, card, minis or comics and the "game store" most certainly has some real benefits to those areas. The other types of games really need a public presence to grow and sell well to one degree or another and RPGs are just along for ride when it comes to shelf space.
Quote from: jgants;307850QFT
The fact is almost all the old, cool game stores of the 80s and 90s died off or were bought out by some jackass. Now all that's left is newer stores that don't like to have inventory. The days of the big stores with massive amounts of inventory spanning many years are gone for the most part (with stores like Games Plus being the exception).
Instead, all I see are newer stores with little to no RPG inventory. No used gaming material, ever (I have to go to Half Price Books if I want that) - the only "old" stuff is usually left over D20 material from the glut of 2000 or whatever.
Rarely ever do I see a store with support for more than 4 or so lines (most of which I can get cheaper by going in to a B&N store, much less ordering online). And half the time they never fucking re-order anything anyways, so you end up with a few odd supplments sitting on the shelves for years (still at full price) while the core books are never in stock.
And they aren't laid out like a damn bookstore anymore like they should be, so browsing is easy. No, no, no, can't have that. Instead, they are filled with tables for mini gaming or card playing clogging up all the pathways, making it difficult to get from one fucking side to the other without having to plow one's way through whatever fatbeard or annoying little bastards happen to be hanging out that day. And that's not even getting in to the sick bastard stores that like to shrinkwrap everything. WTF is the point of a retail store if you can't browse?
But it doesn't matter anyways, because the fucking guy running the counter is usually off playing magic, playing minis, or chatting with his buds. So you have to wait 15 fucking minutes for dumbass to come over and take your money. I've seriously considered just walking out the door without paying before - not because I want to avoid paying, just because I'm curious if the fucking chump would even notice.
I absolutely loathe this new wave "clubhouse" mentality of gaming stores. I don't want a store where people hang out. I want a store that's like a bookstore where I can find a large selection of material to browse in peace. If LGSes don't want to provide that, then fuck them - I can buy most everything cheaper online anyways.
Well said.
That's the sort of environment that has killed nearly every FLGS within a two-hour drive. The Net finished the rest.
I can think of no RPG-centred FLGS in the UK that I've been to where in-store play occurs. At all. As far as community goes, they'll post your calls for gamers and adverts for clubs on their noticeboard, they'll sell you the games, and the better ones will be happy to chat with you for hours on end on gaming topics, but that's about it. As far as I can tell, what regular public game occurs in the UK (outside of the context of convention) tends to involve people booking function rooms at pubs or church halls to run regular games evenings there. It seems to work fairly well.
Quote from: jgants;307850QFT
*snip* but QFT *snip*
I agree 100%. I have a suspicion (though obviously there are exceptions..) that a great number of the "game stores" that set out to be meeting places and open-gaming areas end up closing...
because they became meeting places and open-gaming areas instead of places where product is sold.
They forgot to sell anything except the occasional loose card or mini, assumed they'd pay rent with frito and coke money, and are generally run by disinterested family members so the weird nephew who can't get a normal job has a place to work, or owners who think think can magically SAVE VS. CHAPTER 11 and keep themselves in business.
do i sound bitter? I am. Why? Because i've (to date) seen 3 businesses in 10 years do THE SAME DAMN THING in this town.
Quote from: kregmosier;307909I agree 100%. I have a suspicion (though obviously there are exceptions..) that a great number of the "game stores" that set out to be meeting places and open-gaming areas end up closing...because they became meeting places and open-gaming areas instead of places where product is sold.
They forgot to sell anything except the occasional loose card or mini, assumed they'd pay rent with frito and coke money, and are generally run by disinterested family members so the weird nephew who can't get a normal job has a place to work, or owners who think think can magically SAVE VS. CHAPTER 11 and keep themselves in business.
do i sound bitter? I am. Why? Because i've (to date) seen 3 businesses in 10 years do THE SAME DAMN THING in this town.
Me, too. Actually, here I think it was more like 5 or 6.
There are two potential pitfalls in these types of business, two potential models for disaster:
1. Guy who is a great gamer but knows absolutely nothing about business and just assumes "how hard can it be"?
2. Guy who is a ruthless businessman who doesn't actually know anything about his product or the culture, assuming "these nerds will just buy whatever I bring, and as for knowing stuff about their freaky hobby I can just fake it".
Recipes for disaster that I've seen over and over again. The former tends to fail quicker than the latter, but both inevitably go down the tubes.
RPGPundit
Pundit is right about his two models of people who make stores who fail. We have had small stores that had those same two models in the last few years and both dropped. Add to this mix comic fans, who are tangental gamers, who run comic stores and figure three players handbooks make them a game store, and you have game stores on the track to fail.
Planet 10 and One other store stayed alive for over 7 years following the right course, proper business sense while supporting a community (not existing just to be a community point). Both stores did not close because of their business, both owners realized that they could return to their lucretive high tech jobs and earn more money in two months than they made on the store in a year or ever.
To answer the original question: No, we do not need FLGS's.
We can go online and buy what we need, most times right from the game company which in turn makes them more money which they can use to make more cool games.
All we need is one good site for people to find other players and we are set. Posting in a game store is limited. What if you live in an area with 2 game stores and you post in one game store and people go to one store and not the other. They will see your post. An online post is open to a larger audience.
I have two game stores near me, one that is really good, and one that is ok. I don't go to either and dont care if they live or die. I am not going to pay full price for rpgs anymore.
My group gets together at a players house each week so FLGS's provide me nothing I need.
Quote from: Warthur;307870I can think of no RPG-centred FLGS in the UK that I've been to where in-store play occurs. .
I've seen a couple over the years but usually the guy running the store was a complete dick that only wanted a certain type of game played. If you wanted to play something different or didn't play in the style him or one of his buddies approved of then expect abuse until you left. They wouldn't even be in the group just sat on the sidelines and heckle.
None of them lasted very long.
I discovered, to my delight, that I do have a FLGS in my area. Okay, not my immediate area, but not a 50 minute drive either.
The staff was relatively friendly and had a small clue. There was a small community that hangs around. They have side rooms that have (on sundays) Pokemon in one area, and Warhammer (40k and other) in the other. The Magic Players were out in side tables. The Table Top players were over by their racks, chatting to some degree. The table toppers could play in one of the back rooms, but they never seem to sign up for it.
They do a decent job selling things (I found shelves with pretty much every game grouping, not just a cluster of White Wolf or D20/D&D.). They had a good stock of minis and mini games (seemingly the bread and butter of the shop), as well as a good stock of cards (though no singles). They also sell soda, Bawls, Mana Potions, and some snacks, to those that are hanging about.
This place has been open for 2.5 years now. (I had been here once before, a few months ago, accidently on a Card Tournament Day, so I wasn't able to experience the actual shop). It seems to be going strong.
This is proof that it can be done in our current market.
Do we have to have them, no. Do we need them? Yes, they are just not a requirement.