Quote from: Warthur;251079I'd suggest reading the damn thread, and paying close attention to the bit where he says "history=genre". It was ambiguous, and that's been cleared up; there's no need for you to wail about it further on OneTin's behalf.

You know, I can't remember any time where your participation in a thread hasn't involved giving people a hard time. What's up with that, crankyboots?

Actually, reading the whole thread would show that I made it simple & clear in the OP, and then it was a poster thread-crapping that started the whole mess.

Your remarks in this thread certainly added nothing to the situation for which I was seeking help.

And your failure to read a full thread before jumping in is exactly how you ended up embarassing yourself:

Quote from: WarthurEd, cut me some slack. I have about an hour a day in which I can browse therpgsite; I can't always read threads to the end every time I reply

Follow your own advice: you should start reading an entire thread before you start sounding off. I understand you feel a need to participate, but perhaps if you knew what was being discussed, you might make a contribution. Whining about your time constraints certainly isn't much of an excuse.

Quote from: Warthur;251079I'd suggest reading the damn thread, and paying close attention to the bit where he says "history=genre". It was ambiguous, and that's been cleared up; there's no need for you to wail about it further on OneTin's behalf.

Except he doesn't say that. He said "The genre is the historical Old West". The genere he is playing in is historical old west.

Quote from: Warthur;251079You know, I can't remember any time where your participation in a thread hasn't involved giving people a hard time. What's up with that, crankyboots?

Funny comming from one of two guys giving the OP a hard time. Well, not funny really...

OneTinS.,

 Did you find any of my links useful?

 Also, Dad called me back after the message I left on his machine.

He recommends for the NPC guy: a Winchester 1873 44-40 lever action for a longarm weapon, for a handgun he said to go with an 1873 Colt Peacemaker single action. ( I scribbled notes wjile he talked)

 Back in the 1970s, my Dad was the Gun Expert for a magazine called HUNTING DOG. He had a regular column in there called: "Ask Bob About Guns".


- Ed C.

Quote from: OneTinSoldier;249958A pack mule can only carry 225lbs, and requires a minimum of 8lbs of water and 4-6 pounds of grain a day.

Quote from: OneTinSoldier;249965True, but you can't forage for grain.

I know I'm reaching way back here, but remember that wheat's just grass that's been long-bred for yield. Left to its own devices in the wilderness, a pack mule will find plenty of forage, not just the high-energy grains but also just...well, to be honest, whatever the fuck gets near its mouth and looks sort of plant-like. Hard travel makes this harder, particularly if the mule's loaded, but they forage really, really well, particularly in grasslands but even in forests; only in painful scrub land - and this is something the players would do well to remember - will the mule need supplemental grain. [Horses are, depending on the breed, much more demanding of supplemental grains, but in the prairies, provided they don't colic, they'll do all right.] Think about the hundreds of mules that crossed the nation in those days; they couldn't all have been carrying all the grain they needed on their own backs, or they've have been useless!

I think this idea, and its [theoretical] execution sounds most excellent, and I think it's too bad that some people are focused on mean-spirited criticism, and not constructive suggestions. Are there still-unanswered questions the rest of us might aid you with?

Quote from: Koltar;251225OneTinS.,

 Did you find any of my links useful?

 Also, Dad called me back after the message I left on his machine.

He recommends for the NPC guy: a Winchester 1873 44-40 lever action for a longarm weapon, for a handgun he said to go with an 1873 Colt Peacemaker single action. ( I scribbled notes wjile he talked)

 Back in the 1970s, my Dad was the Gun Expert for a magazine called HUNTING DOG. He had a regular column in there called: "Ask Bob About Guns".


- Ed C.

Very good choice. The Winchester would be the 'Yellowboy', I imagine.

The links are bookmarked and being throughly mined. Many, many thanks!

Quote from: Engine;251241I know I'm reaching way back here, but remember that wheat's just grass that's been long-bred for yield. Left to its own devices in the wilderness, a pack mule will find plenty of forage, not just the high-energy grains but also just...well, to be honest, whatever the fuck gets near its mouth and looks sort of plant-like. Hard travel makes this harder, particularly if the mule's loaded, but they forage really, really well, particularly in grasslands but even in forests; only in painful scrub land - and this is something the players would do well to remember - will the mule need supplemental grain. [Horses are, depending on the breed, much more demanding of supplemental grains, but in the prairies, provided they don't colic, they'll do all right.] Think about the hundreds of mules that crossed the nation in those days; they couldn't all have been carrying all the grain they needed on their own backs, or they've have been useless!

I think this idea, and its [theoretical] execution sounds most excellent, and I think it's too bad that some people are focused on mean-spirited criticism, and not constructive suggestions. Are there still-unanswered questions the rest of us might aid you with?

You raise very good points about the mules. I was thinking of the PCs riding hard over extended periods, so that grazing time would be minimal. I'll have to give this careful thought. I'm using a pdf of an 1880s British Army manual as a reference, as my horsemanship is rather primitive.

In your opinion, how much grazing would a mule require in a given day after a full day's travel (say 18-20 miles across fairly rough ground, or twenty-five on easier terrain) with a loaded pack saddle?

Let me preface this by saying IANAME [I Am Not A Mule Expert], but based on what I know, the mule will be able to forage sufficiently if allowed the same amount of "rest and graze" time as the horses. They'll do this on their own anytime you're going slow [and I hope you're not planning to gallop for hours with the loaded mule!] and can generally feed themselves just fine within the span of your afternoon lunch break and your evening camp. Given the distances-per-day you're talking about, they'll be able to do all the grazing they need in maybe an hour of time, although they'll naturally stretch it to a few minutes, here and there, over several hours.

Honestly, the mule feed requirements are simpler than the horses': mules won't eat until they colic like a horse will, and they can subsist on much lower-quality grasses. They also need only about a third as much high-energy feed - that's your corn and grains - as the equivalent working horse! [They're smarter, too. Seriously, mules are most excellent.] On a run through scrublands, the players would actually be much, much better off all riding mules, rather than horses, because the mules will eat the scrub more readily, and need less seed grass. They're not as fast, but when you're traveling cross-country, it's not speed, but endurance and ability to exist in harsh environments; mules have these in spades.

Also, mules react to shortage of water like camels, which is very unlike horses, who will stupidly get thirsty quickly, then drink until they die. I like horses, but they're really not very practical animals in harsh environments.

Quote from: Engine;251555Let me preface this by saying IANAME [I Am Not A Mule Expert], but based on what I know, the mule will be able to forage sufficiently if allowed the same amount of "rest and graze" time as the horses. They'll do this on their own anytime you're going slow [and I hope you're not planning to gallop for hours with the loaded mule!] and can generally feed themselves just fine within the span of your afternoon lunch break and your evening camp. Given the distances-per-day you're talking about, they'll be able to do all the grazing they need in maybe an hour of time, although they'll naturally stretch it to a few minutes, here and there, over several hours.

Honestly, the mule feed requirements are simpler than the horses': mules won't eat until they colic like a horse will, and they can subsist on much lower-quality grasses. They also need only about a third as much high-energy feed - that's your corn and grains - as the equivalent working horse! [They're smarter, too. Seriously, mules are most excellent.] On a run through scrublands, the players would actually be much, much better off all riding mules, rather than horses, because the mules will eat the scrub more readily, and need less seed grass. They're not as fast, but when you're traveling cross-country, it's not speed, but endurance and ability to exist in harsh environments; mules have these in spades.

Also, mules react to shortage of water like camels, which is very unlike horses, who will stupidly get thirsty quickly, then drink until they die. I like horses, but they're really not very practical animals in harsh environments.

Interesting. You may not be an expert, but you know a lot more than I do on the subject, so the effect is the same.

No, we will not be doing the Hollywood 'full throttle'.

I know mules are smarter than horses (and tougher, too). I didn't know about the grazing habits.

I agree that mules would make better mounts for general travel, particularly in Texas, where the PCs start out; however, horses do have one important asset which comes into play in this period: they are dumb enough to be ridden virtually to death. If you are running from the Indians, that is an important option. A mule will not kill itself for its rider.

This has been very helpful-thanks!

With all that in mind - maybe your PC adventuring/investigating party could have a mix of horses and mules in their group.

Maybe if none of the players wants a mule for a mount - you could toss n a sidekick NPC that prefers mules.

OR : An NPC like that might only be in your campaign for a couple of sessions - because he (or she) is a local source of information and also proves to be somewhat useful in a fight as back-up.


- Ed C.

Quote from: Koltar;251573With all that in mind - maybe your PC adventuring/investigating party could have a mix of horses and mules in their group.

Maybe if none of the players wants a mule for a mount - you could toss n a sidekick NPC that prefers mules.

OR : An NPC like that might only be in your campaign for a couple of sessions - because he (or she) is a local source of information and also proves to be somewhat useful in a fight as back-up.


- Ed C.

True.

Plus the PCs will need pack mules-even discounting the library, they are going to need to carry supplies, and several classes have requirements that will not allow living out of saddlebags.

Plus, being themselves, they will want more ammunition than will ever be needed, and since dynamite is avalible 'over the counter', you can rest assured they will have a case of that along.

Well, what it sounds like they really need is a wagon, which comes with its own excitements.

The great thing is, you can prevent overland travel from becoming mundane simply by mixing up the requirements. One thing about players is that they'll always figure out the best and simplest way of getting around whatever obstacles you put in their path, and then just keep doing it over and over. [The example that comes readily to mind is the "watch schedule," a player favorite, as well as "marching order."] But if one adventure requires fast overland movement, they're going to have to leave some stuff behind and figure out how to make it with only horses and what those horses can carry; if another requires travel across a harsh environment, they may need to find a trader and trade their horses for mules; if they're going to need to take explosives and books and guns, maybe they'll need a wagon, which means they have to stick to established roadlike paths. It can mix things up, and keep them always thinking, and prevent overland travel from seeming mundane, when it fact it's a much greater challenge than what they'll likely face when they get there.

Quote from: Engine;251584Well, what it sounds like they really need is a wagon, which comes with its own excitements.

The great thing is, you can prevent overland travel from becoming mundane simply by mixing up the requirements. One thing about players is that they'll always figure out the best and simplest way of getting around whatever obstacles you put in their path, and then just keep doing it over and over. [The example that comes readily to mind is the "watch schedule," a player favorite, as well as "marching order."] But if one adventure requires fast overland movement, they're going to have to leave some stuff behind and figure out how to make it with only horses and what those horses can carry; if another requires travel across a harsh environment, they may need to find a trader and trade their horses for mules; if they're going to need to take explosives and books and guns, maybe they'll need a wagon, which means they have to stick to established roadlike paths. It can mix things up, and keep them always thinking, and prevent overland travel from seeming mundane, when it fact it's a much greater challenge than what they'll likely face when they get there.

Trust me, travel is never simple in my campaigns.

Water is a good issue to use in the Old West, as many parts of the Great Plans are very, very dry, and frequently require traveling from water point to water point rather than in a straight line, especially in Texas summers.

Wagons are great, but as you noted, they're mostly road-bound.

IMO, a good GM uses every possible aspect of the campaign setting to present challenges to the PCs.

Firearms are the same way. You get west of San Angelo/Abeline, you're on the high plains; a good place for a Spencer rifle, Sharps or Springfield in .45-70, etc. because you'll be shooting at a distance.

More to the east, in the hill country, carbines such as Koltar's Winchester Yellowboy, or a Spencer carbine are going to be important, because fights will be closer and lots of cover means you'll need to fire suppression as much as anything.

But when you hit the huge mesquite and cedar breaks a bit south of that, handguns or short-barrelled shotguns would be best, because visibility is going to be very close, and speed in reaction is going to be life or death.

Never make it easy.