Here's the setting:
Old West, 1878, with a moderate deviation from history (does not affect technology or major political developments).
The PCs will be running a inestigative campaign against a vaguely CoC setting. They will be Pinkerton agents. The CoC nature will be cloaked behind other legendary terminology; the investigative aspect of the game will be quite deep and techincal (I'm a police officer). I'm expecting 50-60 weekly sessions, barring a TPK, which is always possible.
Here's my problem: the skills & classes make research viable, and the setting makes it absolutely crutial.
But the West in 1878 is thinly populated and optimized for survival. Access to libraries and the like will be very minimal, and thus the opportunity for research.
Carrying a large amount of written works is out of the question-the PCs will be travelling in the hinderlands a great deal. A pack mule can only carry 225lbs, and requires a minimum of 8lbs of water and 4-6 pounds of grain a day.
So how do I work around this? Implausible gimmicks like private trains are out.
Aren't there survival and hunting and foraging sorts of skills in the game? They can be used to make short rations last a long time.
If PCs want to go into the sticks but take no survivalish skills, then they deserve the hunger pangs they get :)
Quote from: Kyle Aaron;249962Aren't there survival and hunting and foraging sorts of skills in the game? They can be used to make short rations last a long time.
If PCs want to go into the sticks but take no survivalish skills, then they deserve the hunger pangs they get :)
True, but you can't forage for grain.
You're right about water.
But could you get enough books into 225lbs to make a decent research roll?
Allow one PC to be a supernatural-like savant. The character has got all this info stored up in his/her brain - kind of like Chuck....
Regards,
David R
In 1878 if they are close enough to a town - they could send a request for information to their home office in either Chicago or St. Louis.
The telegraph should be in common use by that year:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Electrical_telegraph
Only suggesting this for when the research roleplay hits the limit of character or player knowledge.
One of the earliest historical telegraph messages involved apprehending a criminal:
QuoteIn early 1845, John Tawell was apprehended following the use of a needle telegraph message from Slough to Paddington on January 1, 1845. This is thought to be the first use of the telegraph to catch a murderer. The message was:
A murder has just been committed at Salt Hill and the suspected murderer was seen to take a first class ticket to London by the train that left Slough at 7.42pm. He is in the garb of a Kwaker with a brown great coat on which reaches his feet. He is in the last compartment of the second first-class carriage
The reason for the misspelling of 'Quaker' was that the British system did not support the letter
As for the American Old West:
QuoteOn October 24, 1861, the first transcontinental telegraph system was established. Spanning North America, an existing network in the eastern United States was connected to the small network in California by a link between Omaha and Carson City via Salt Lake City. The slower Pony Express system ceased operation two days later. Carson City has another claim in the history of telegraphs for the largest and costliest transmission ever sent came from there. Union sympathizers in the American Civil War were eager to gain statehood for Nevada before the next presidential election so that Abraham Lincoln would have enough votes to win. They rushed to send the entire state constitution by telegraph to the United States Congress, which approved it and sent it to the President for signature. They did not believe sending it by train would guarantee it would arrive on time. The constitution was sent on October 31st, just 8 days before the election on November 7th, 1864.
Hope thats useful for your eventual campaign.
- Ed C.
Quote from: Koltar;249970In 1878 if they are close enough to a town - they could send a request for information to their home office in either Chicago or St. Louis.
Very interesting-for that matter, they could have a small library stashed at a home base, and communicate by telegraph with an NPC left to tend it.
That could work very nicely.
A certain amount of esoteric knowledge might also be gleaned from the stories of Medicine Men, cave paintings, etc...
Shoot, if you go really gonzo you could have a player piano's scroll contain cultist revelations.
Also, some medium-sized towns that had some local wealthy eccentric that might've helped start the town originally - might have their own personal libraries. . In 1878 we're talking towns and settlements that have been there maybe less than 30 years. At the time, it was possible to send to somewhere like SEARS for designs and kits to build schools and courthopuses for towns that were just starting out.
The old TIME-LIFE series on the Old West had a whole book devoted to just the Townsmen and how they were started very quickly and they also wanted 'respectability' very quickly. Part of this would be the fact that a few towns might start a library as a status symbol to show that they were 'better' or more sopisticated than the last town along the trail or railroad line.
If you could find that particular book at a used book store like HALF-PRICE Books it would likely be a good resource for the type of campaign that you're doing. If I remember right (and these books are in a different part of the house right now) the volume on LAWMEN or GUNSLINGERS had a whole chapter on the Pinkertons.
Also, don't laugh, but GURPS: OLD WEST might be useful as a decent blbliograpy pointer and overview of the setting.
- Ed C.
Pity the telegraph operators who have to rely passages from various occult texts in Morse code.
^^LOL...
Definitely enforce SAN checks for telegraph operators transmitting the Necronomicon.
You could also give one of the characters a patchwork journal/scrapbook full of little bits of esoterica on the occult. Bit's of newspapers and pages from obscure books in one big leatherbound volume.
It doesn't always have something, but it occasionally works out that it's got some information that could be useful.
Quote from: FASERIP;249981^^LOL...
Definitely enforce SAN checks for telegraph operators transmitting the Necronomicon.
Well, at least it isn't 4chan.
Quote from: OneTinSoldier;249958Carrying a large amount of written works is out of the question-the PCs will be travelling in the hinderlands a great deal. A pack mule can only carry 225lbs, and requires a minimum of 8lbs of water and 4-6 pounds of grain a day.
So how do I work around this? Implausible gimmicks like private trains are out.
Who needs all that book-learnin' anyway?
Specifically: why not make research more a matter of getting people to share the information they have locked away in their noggin, be it town rumours or Indian folklore or a terrible secret about the strange events on the McDougal ranch twenty years back that the ol'-timers still won't talk about? Dot around a few courthouses, Western Union telegraph offices, and the like - so the folks who took Library Use aren't
completely boned - and for the rest of the research the PCs can use their social skills. Pinkerton investigations in the Old West aren't exactly going to require the same standards of proof as FBI investigations in the 21st century, after all; hearsay and gossip will, a lot of the time, be all you can reasonably expect to have.
Quote from: Warthur;250142Who needs all that book-learnin' anyway?
Specifically: why not make research more a matter of getting people to share the information they have locked away in their noggin, be it town rumours or Indian folklore or a terrible secret about the strange events on the McDougal ranch twenty years back that the ol'-timers still won't talk about? Dot around a few courthouses, Western Union telegraph offices, and the like - so the folks who took Library Use aren't completely boned - and for the rest of the research the PCs can use their social skills. Pinkerton investigations in the Old West aren't exactly going to require the same standards of proof as FBI investigations in the 21st century, after all; hearsay and gossip will, a lot of the time, be all you can reasonably expect to have.
There are skills for obtaining/extracting known information. That's covered.
But to operate a three or four tier deception (remember, I'm looking at 50+ weekly sessions), its going to be a great deal deeper than some weird goings-on out at the old mine. No NPC will have all or even a fraction of the information needed.
So the PCs will have to cross-reference the raw data they obtain from interview/interrogation/canvas, physical evidence found at various scenes, and link analysis of events. They will have to research the root data involved, and cross-reference the resulting data.
The skill sets are there; what I need, however, is the problem of the physical collection of reference works that the PCs will need to transform the raw data into a coherant result. In modern, or even later period settings you have libraries and other data sources to work with.
In the Old West, not so much.
But working off the suggestions made here, by adding a skill along the lines of research relevance, the PC who does the research could carry a working library with him, say 200lbs of books (a pack mule plus six day's worth of grain-figure 68-80 volumes) as a forward reference source, and then telegraph back to places such as Austin, Santa Fe, or similar places for books.
One thing I have learned from research based off Koltar's idea is that in this era, bound catalogs of books were published listing publisher data and tables of contents (books were not dispoosable in this era). With a proper collection of catalogs, a researcher could identify a short list of works that he needed, and arrange for their transport by telegraph. Delivery could be, on a rail line, a matter of days.
Expensive, but that it simply a challenge the PCs will have to overcome.
Why have them lug the books around?
Well, for a small jump, stick an occult library in Salt Lake city. It could be a secret one owned by a collector who most people believe is an upright Mormon. Or it could be the secret archieves of the church itself.
For a slightly larger jump you could have a wealthy gentleman's estate in the wilderness. Having been run out of town in europe, he has used his considerable fortune to set himself up in the lawless territory of the American west, with his own personal milita. Being a collector of oddities he finds the PCs useful as catspaws and makes his library of the obscure available to them.
For a big, nasty jump you could have a secret library brought to America by the conquistadors from Europe in order to hide it from the Inquisition. And you could have it contain everything that was really going on with the Aztecs and their gods. You know, the Aztec gods would make nice stand-ins for the mythos...
On a side thought the wealthy gentleman could be an arab or chinese prince if you like. The conquistador's books could be in the hands of a mad prospector or the local navajo tribe.
Quote from: Warthur;250142Who needs all that book-learnin' anyway?
I agree, it's bending the genre over backwards. The west is no place for book learning and extensive modern investigative methods, I'd feel ripped off if I was invited to such a game.
I assume the OP has players who agree with him and are happy with this. And that's fine. But given that he's fitting a square peg into a round hole with this, I have no suggestions for hauling hundreds of pounds of books around in the old west while rejecting genre things like private or company owned trains...
Other folks what might be havin' th' right musty ol' books hangin' 'bout:
The lovely school marm: That's right pardner, she's as chaste as th' blessed virgin an' she's got th' devil's own library right out from Salem. (virgin birth story line optional)
The travelling medicine show: Doc Winter's on th' run pardner. 's why he never hangs 'round one place. His linament's good as gold an' cheap at a dollar fifty a bottle. He's got lots o' old books in that painted wagon an' plenty of 'em ain't on doctorin'.
The man of god: th' parson's as cold as th' grave. Stood down three robbers with nothin' but a book in 'is hand. Them fellas turned white as ghosts an' lit outta town right fast. I hear tell they was all dead of th' chills inside three days. Funny thing is that from what I could see that book was no bible.
Like Koltar suggested the Telegraph, Pony Express, and Carrier Pigeons are great "shticks". Also Like Dave Johansen mentions perhaps strategically placing small but useful occult libraries in places like Salt Lake City, Chicago, and other established cities should be easy. (Use Wiki to see what cities actually had libraries?)
Also what about having access to Pinkerton's passing through? Trains, carriages, etc...Which keeps them from being able to regularly access information.
The bandit: ol' Jack Thompson's none too bright and he means to change that. Nowadays they'd likely have some high fallutin' name fer what he is like "psychopath" or summat. But, thing is Jack is a killer. He's got a wagon and some oxen an' he picks up stakes now and then to sit near another trail an' kill less wary folk. Thing is, ol' Jack's been told if he got some learnin' he'd be sharper, so he's been keepin' the books what folks have. His wagon's right full of 'em an' he's got no notion of which side is up.
The town drunk: Bob Hamsford's a funny sort. Went away to school, travelled in Europe, fought in some foriegn war, maybe, you can't always believe what a fella says when he's got two quarts of hard liquor in him. That old shack he bought when he first come to town's got a couple o' trunks full o' books in 'em. He's still got some of his pa's money I recon. Enough for the next few bottles of whiskey at any rate. A few folks have supposedly tried to rob him and never been seen again. But then I already told you not to believe everything a drunk says. Heck, nobody even knows why he came out west, or why he drinks, or why he brought all them books when he never reads them.
Of all things take inspiration from the TV series "DEADWOOD' - but not how you might expect.
The first season of 'DEADWOOD' is set 2 years before the year of your campaign. On the show they portrayed all levels of literacy. Notice that even a town/camp as small as that one had a working newspaper - that later had the telegraph attached to it. (makes sense).
Notice also that the Scoundrel & con-man Swearingen could quote both the Bible and Shakespeare from time to time - not perfectly , but he was familiar enough with both to do so. If you look at the furnishings of Al's rooms and also the rooms of the Hotel that was featured ...there always seems to be a bookcase with at least 3 or 4 books there, often times more. Also, normally a writing desk of some kind.
The town's Newspaperman might have an ad-hoc collected encyclopedia of mismatched publishers and copyrights as well as a passable dictionary. Same might be said if the town has a small school with a schoolmarm or bachelor traveling teacher.
One possible source of information for your players might be a Preacher that travels a circuit spreading the good word and is in contact with 3 or 4 towns. He might make a good recurring NPC and potential ally. Thats one person that would be in a uniquely perfect position to spot disquieting trends an ominous instances of missing persons.
- Ed C.
Quote from: gleichman;250334I agree, it's bending the genre over backwards. The west is no place for book learning and extensive modern investigative methods, I'd feel ripped off if I was invited to such a game.
I assume the OP has players who agree with him and are happy with this. And that's fine. But given that he's fitting a square peg into a round hole with this, I have no suggestions for hauling hundreds of pounds of books around in the old west while rejecting genre things like private or company owned trains...
Bending the genre? Hardly.
Koltar has touched on it, but education was not uncommon in the West. That was a time when a high school education included Latin. College meant Greek studies.
One of the most successful cattle barons was a Harvard graduate, and numerous other Ivy Leaguers were prominant in the West. The US Army was lead by graduates of one of the best engineering schools of its time. Of famous 'shootists', one was a dentist (Doc Holliday), and several (Masterson, Earp, Thompson) went on to careers as writers. Outlaws such as the James Brothers and Hardin, to name a few, not only were literate, but left behind extensive writings, to include journals, legal briefs, and detailed accounts of events. Newspapers were extremely common, and very influential.
As to lugging around books, sales catalogs of the day have extensive lines of crates, valises, and trunks designed to do just that-transport books. Several companies starting in the 1850s were devoted to the business of selling books to people out West, and did a thriving business, as did companies which sold sheet music and musical instruments. The USPS records indicate that in additional to a heavy volume of personal mail, there was a massive weight of Eastern newspapers and magazines send to subscribers out West. In fact, the Bass, James, and simplar gangs commonly took newspapers from the mail car when they robbed trains.
As to investigation methods, this was an era of development and improvisation; blood splatter studies were conducted in nearly every state and Territory, and were used in criminal cases from the early 1870s on. You can see excellent crime scene sketches from this period and earlier in the Texas Ranger Museum in Waco, and despite their claim to be the best at everything, they were hardly unique in this practice. While the forensic asrts were minimal, the study and explotation of visible physical evidence was well-developed. Dodge City's city expense ledgers note regular payments to the owner of a candy store who lent his artistic talents to sketching crime scenes and drawing suspects based on eyewitness tesimony (he got the princely sum of $0.75 an image). Several of his drawings are still preseved in criminal files of the period.
The burg I work in was a wild & wooly place in the 1870s-on the edge of the 'Ranger line', later 'the fort trail'; subjected to Comanche raids, habitual violence (three successive Sherriffs died in office, all of gunfire), and a haunt of such murderous scum as John Wesley Hardin, Sam Bass, and their ilk. It had over a dozen saloons and several brothels.
And a university. A high school. A library. The County and City ledgers of the period are on display, showing meticulous double-entry book keeping. Includeing the costs of burying men killed in gun battles in the town streets.
It also had a soda fountain, two book stores, and a music store. In a town of less than six thousand inhabitants at the time. (of course, they serviced a large rual and small town population).
'Book learning'? Absolutely essential to the genre. Anything else would be terribly inappropriate. The West was built by men of education backed by Eastern money-they surveyed the land, fought legal battles whose precedents form the foundations of modern title law, and built up half the state organizations and penal codes of the USA.
Know the genre is a rule every GM should follow. No place for 'book learnin'? Might as well say there's no place for Indians. :D
Quote from: OneTinSoldier;250435Bending the genre? Hardly.
As long as your players would buy into this, all is good and it doesn't matter that I think it's a terrible idea.
And genre <> history btw, thus your history 'lesson' was not only known by me- it was wasted air against a point that I never made.
Quote from: gleichman;250437As long as your players would buy into this, all is good and it doesn't matter that I think it's a terrible idea.
And genre <> history btw, thus your history 'lesson' was not only known by me- it was wasted air against a point that I never made.
'Buy'?
History=genre.
Quote from: OneTinSoldier;250438'Buy'?
History=genre.
If you're unaware of what 'Buy-In" is, it's no wonder you don't understand the difference between History and Genre as it would be commonly understood.
If you're interested:
Buy or Buy-In is the acceptance by all concerned of the ground rules and direction of a process, i.e. your campaign.
History = actual history
Genre generally references a fictional construction unless specifically defined otherwise. Thus a Western setting is not that of history, but that of the movies and novels. Here in the States the Western Genre used to be huge (and still has great influence), and breaking its rules (like turning it into a game of hardcore research) is a serious break with genre expectations. It can be done of course, but in so doing you could have rebellion on your hands if the players are true fans of the genre.
Quote from: gleichman;250442If you're unaware of what 'Buy-In" is, it's no wonder you don't understand the difference between History and Genre as it would be commonly understood.
If you're interested:
Buy or Buy-In is the acceptance by all concerned of the ground rules and direction of a process, i.e. your campaign.
History = actual history
Genre generally references a fictional construction unless specifically defined otherwise. Thus a Western setting is not that of history, but that of the movies and novels. Here in the States the Western Genre used to be huge (and still has great influence), and breaking its rules (like turning it into a game of hardcore research) is a serious break with genre expectations. It can be done of course, but in so doing you could have rebellion on your hands if the players are true fans of the genre.
Living in the West my entire life, I obviously missed the impact of the 'genre'. The novels I read tended to focus on historical conditions. Even as a kid I knew that the Hollywood westerns were hokey kid stuff. I would no more use it in a RPG than the drek you see in TV cop shows in a modern setting.
And no, I will have no rebellion. My players are adults who likewise have grown up in Western states and are educated. They know a campaign set in the Old West will be based on the Old West, not on Hollywood. When I run a campaign based on a historical period, even one with an altered timeline, it will be grounded on that period.
Which leaves me with the the same issue: a viable method for PCs accessing significant research material. Koltar has helped with the short & mid-term issues, but I am still left with the two or three detailed, in-depth research issues that the campaign will require, figuring at twelve to fifteen session intervals.
The search goes on.
Quote from: OneTinSoldier;250449Even as a kid I knew that the Hollywood westerns were hokey kid stuff.
Ah. Seems they don't have 'Buy In' in the 'real' west.
Not to get in the way of your regional elitism or anything (as if I didn't also grow up in the real West of Dodge City and the Land Rush myself) - but the next time you ask for advice you may wish to make clear up front that you're going for a very realistic and non-genre version of the West. You know, attempt to communicate to people.
Because knowing, accepting and using common language helps in that believe it or not.
Quote from: gleichman;250455Ah. Seems they don't have 'Buy In' in the 'real' west.
Not to get in the way of your regional elitism or anything (as if I didn't also grow up in the real West of Dodge City and the Land Rush myself) - but the next time you ask for advice you may wish to make clear up front that you're going for a very realistic and non-genre version of the West. You know, attempt to communicate to people.
Because knowing, accepting and using common language helps in that believe it or not.
I am running a genre West. History=genre.
And the question wasn't regarding setting, it was regarding how PCs with the proper academic background could gain access to suitable reference libraries in the Old West.
Not whether 'book learning' was or was not historically accurate, or even Hollywood accurate, but rather a non-gimmick-y method of PC access to such a library.
A question still partially unanswered. Any suggestions?
OnrTinSoldier,
This page might help with some references for the time period:
http://timelines.ws/1877_1878.HTML
Although it sounds like you're pretty well-read on the background(or parts of it) as is.
A few tidbits from that page:
Quote1877 August 29, The second president of the Mormon Church, Brigham Young, died in Salt Lake City, Utah.
(AP, 8/29/97)
1877 August: In the midst of a recession and the turmoil of anti-Chinese riots, San Franciscans decided to build a public library.
(SFC, 4/14/96, EM, p.20)
and also:
Quote1878 February 16: The silver dollar became US legal tender.
(MC, 2/16/02)
1878 February 18: The bitter and bloody Lincoln County War began with the murder of Billy the Kid's mentor, Englishman rancher John Tunstall. Hired killers of James J. Dolan gunned down John Tunstall in Lincoln, N.M. Tunstall's partner Alexander McSween formed a posse known as the Regulators to get even. Billy the Kid was part of the posse.
(SFEC, 2/23/96, p.T8,9)(HN, 2/18/99)
1878 February 19: Thomas Edison received a U.S. patent for "an improvement in phonograph or speaking machines."
(AP, 2/19/07)
- Ed C.
That's a very useful link-thanks!
Quote from: gleichman;250455[T]he next time you ask for advice you may wish to make clear up front that you're going for a very realistic and non-genre version of the West. You know, attempt to communicate to people.
Because knowing, accepting and using common language helps in that believe it or not.
I don't know... the OP's first post seems to satisfy what you are looking for in this post.
Here's the setting:
Old West, 1878, with a moderate deviation from history (does not affect technology or major political developments).
Quote from: OneTinSoldier;250462I am running a genre West. History=genre.
And the question wasn't regarding setting, it was regarding how PCs with the proper academic background could gain access to suitable reference libraries in the Old West.
Not whether 'book learning' was or was not historically accurate, or even Hollywood accurate, but rather a non-gimmick-y method of PC access to such a library.
A question still partially unanswered. Any suggestions?
How about a private library? A transplanted wealthy easterner - like Maverick or Roosevelt - who has a private collection.
-clash
Quote from: OneTinSoldier;250204But to operate a three or four tier deception (remember, I'm looking at 50+ weekly sessions), its going to be a great deal deeper than some weird goings-on out at the old mine. No NPC will have all or even a fraction of the information needed.
So the PCs will have to cross-reference the raw data they obtain from interview/interrogation/canvas, physical evidence found at various scenes, and link analysis of events. They will have to research the root data involved, and cross-reference the resulting data.
Frankly, I think any problem that the players can't keep track of themselves in a standard spiral-bound notebook is too hellishly complicated for the RPG format.
I think you are allowing your professional knowledge of modern investigative techniques creep in too much. Remember, while this might be an investigative game
it's also a Western. Painstakingly documented police work is as out of place as Miranda rights. Did Pinkerton operatives in the Old West
really work like that? And even if it did, is this going to be fun for people who aren't actually police officers to play through?
Have you thought of chopping up your big mystery into a heap of smaller mysteries, and have them winding inexorably towards the central key mystery. (This would incidentally provide some useful redundancy, in case one branch of the investigation flops.)
Quote from: flyingmice;250483How about a private library? A transplanted wealthy easterner - like Maverick or Roosevelt - who has a private collection.
-clash
....damn.
That's brilliant.
Plus, it would mean a quid pro quo; to use said library, they would have to pay, and a rich man would be less interested in money than things hard to come by. Make him a collecter of Indian artifacts, say.
Excellent. The last piece in the puzzle. My thanks!
Quote from: Warthur;250488Frankly, I think any problem that the players can't keep track of themselves in a standard spiral-bound notebook is too hellishly complicated for the RPG format.
I think you are allowing your professional knowledge of modern investigative techniques creep in too much. Remember, while this might be an investigative game it's also a Western. Painstakingly documented police work is as out of place as Miranda rights. Did Pinkerton operatives in the Old West really work like that? And even if it did, is this going to be fun for people who aren't actually police officers to play through?
Have you thought of chopping up your big mystery into a heap of smaller mysteries, and have them winding inexorably towards the central key mystery. (This would incidentally provide some useful redundancy, in case one branch of the investigation flops.)
Actually, the Pinkertons pioneered painstaking data collection, and undercover operations-its how they broke several union efforts. The methods used will be period-appropriate.
But difficult for the PCs does not equate into painstaking for the players. There are always investigative aspects to my campaigns. I use 'PC tough, player-friendly' data methods.
And yes, a tier deception is just what you've described: a central truth hidden under several layers of deception. And I always have redundant paths-anything else is a railroad.
Quote from: OneTinSoldier;250435Bending the genre? Hardly.
SNIP
Quote'Book learning'? Absolutely essential to the genre. Anything else would be terribly inappropriate. The West was built by men of education backed by Eastern money-they surveyed the land, fought legal battles whose precedents form the foundations of modern title law, and built up half the state organizations and penal codes of the USA.
All of the facts you quoted up there are true. Few of them are actually reflected in actual Westerns.
The Western, as a literary genre, has very little to do with the actual Old West, but pitch an Old West game to people and 99% will assume the conventions of the literary genre, however inappropriate. Forget solving these niggling problems about how your players are going to collate their data -
you need to think about how to make them forget the tropes of the genre. That is going to be your number one problem.
(Incidentally, could you PM me the details of the mystery the campaign is going to be about? My curiosity is raging.)
Quote from: OneTinSoldier;250462I am running a genre West. History=genre.
Of course.
That's why the TV cop genre is so accurate.
Is English your first language? I'm genuinely not trying to have a poke at you, but the difference between historical reality and genre conventions is pretty damn vast, to the point where some of your posts are only making sense to me if I assume you have a loose grasp of English.
Warthur - Did you miss that OneTin already shot down that argument several posts ago?
He is not going for "Genre-Western" - and his players KNOW that. They all live in an area that used to be the 'Old West' , so they're pretty familiar with the earea and several historical references.
If anything, OneTinSoldier is being true to later 'revisionist modern westerns' that were made for movies and TV from about 1970 to the present. There has been a 30 years long trend of trying to get more realism into movie and TV westerns.
Heck, the recent version of 3:10 to Yuma showed the bad guy as being a bit literate, a decent amateur sketch artist (at least good enough for portraits & life drawing)
Damn.
This campaign idea of his sounds so cool - I wish I was going to be one of the players in the campaign.
- Ed C.
Quote from: OneTinSoldier;250493Actually, the Pinkertons pioneered painstaking data collection, and undercover operations-its how they broke several union efforts. The methods used will be period-appropriate.
But difficult for the PCs does not equate into painstaking for the players. There are always investigative aspects to my campaigns. I use 'PC tough, player-friendly' data methods.
Out of interest, where do you set the balance in terms of investigative work handled with dice rolls vs. players puzzling out the clues themselves? I always find that having not enough of the latter defeats the point of an investigative game.
Quote from: Koltar;250496Warthur - Did you miss that OneTin already shot down that argument several posts ago?
Ed, cut me some slack. I have about an hour a day in which I can browse therpgsite; I can't always read threads to the end every time I reply.
Quote from: Warthur;250497Out of interest, where do you set the balance in terms of investigative work handled with dice rolls vs. players puzzling out the clues themselves? I always find that having not enough of the latter defeats the point of an investigative game.
I use a d10 pool system, with a variety of skills and a cumulative success requirement.
I balance between PC knowledge and player deduction.
For example, a murder scene.
PC Warthur O'Rielly processes the scene (Process scene skill, sketch skill).
His player makes sufficent rolls. Now, Warthur the PC knows about blood splatter, and drag angles. So I tell his player that his PC has, after seven hours of examination and collection, established that the victim was killed while sitting in the rocking chair in the corner, and then was moved to a position by the fireplace.
PC Koltar Smith examines the body (forensic pathology skill, a suifficent roll), and I explain to his player that after a three hour autopsy, he determined that the victim was killed with a thrust from a narrow-bladed knife; from the angle of the wound the attacker was right-handed, and experienced in blade worek (only one wound, no hesitation marks, etc). The body lay in the chair for about an hour (lividity), and then was moved to the fireplace, where the right hand was seared in the fire post-death. The delay between death and movement would be consistant with getting a fire to the desired temperature.
Neither player has to know how to conduct the investigation; the techincal knowledge is vested in their PCs. I will explain what was found.
What the players will have to deduce is why the victim was killed, and why they burned his hand.
Quote from: Warthur;250495Is English your first language? I'm genuinely not trying to have a poke at you, but the difference between historical reality and genre conventions is pretty damn vast, to the point where some of your posts are only making sense to me if I assume you have a loose grasp of English.
That's my impression as well.
He's not coming off some much as a West elitist (he'd know the answers to the question he's put forth if he was), as someone who's basically ignorant of American language and culture.
I doubt we're going to figure out the truth of it, he's not responding to our points- insists on continuing the confusing language and even seems unaware of revisionist Westerns that Koltar cited.
I'm tossing him on my IL as someone not worth dealing with and calling it quits.
Quote from: Warthur;250495Is English your first language? I'm genuinely not trying to have a poke at you, but the difference between historical reality and genre conventions is pretty damn vast, to the point where some of your posts are only making sense to me if I assume you have a loose grasp of English.
Old West, 1878, with a moderate deviation from history (does not affect technology or major political developments).There is nothing wrong with his English, though there is likely a problem with your comprehension of what he stated he was looking for.
How does one read his original post and not understand he is looking for historically valid solutions to problems he sees in the campaign setting?
Quote from: OneTinSoldier;250514I use a d10 pool system, with a variety of skills and a cumulative success requirement.
I balance between PC knowledge and player deduction.
For example, a murder scene.
PC Warthur O'Rielly processes the scene (Process scene skill, sketch skill).
His player makes sufficent rolls. Now, Warthur the PC knows about blood splatter, and drag angles. So I tell his player that his PC has, after seven hours of examination and collection, established that the victim was killed while sitting in the rocking chair in the corner, and then was moved to a position by the fireplace.
PC Koltar Smith examines the body (forensic pathology skill, a suifficent roll), and I explain to his player that after a three hour autopsy, he determined that the victim was killed with a thrust from a narrow-bladed knife; from the angle of the wound the attacker was right-handed, and experienced in blade worek (only one wound, no hesitation marks, etc). The body lay in the chair for about an hour (lividity), and then was moved to the fireplace, where the right hand was seared in the fire post-death. The delay between death and movement would be consistant with getting a fire to the desired temperature.
Neither player has to know how to conduct the investigation; the techincal knowledge is vested in their PCs. I will explain what was found.
What the players will have to deduce is why the victim was killed, and why they burned his hand.
Nice trick. It does, however, require the GM to have an in-depth knowledge of the relevant techniques and procedures. If you could codify that knowledge so a tyro could run it, you'd have a game product a lot of people would like.
-clash
Quote from: CavScout;250529Old West, 1878, with a moderate deviation from history (does not affect technology or major political developments).
There is nothing wrong with his English, though there is likely a problem with your comprehension of what he stated he was looking for.
How does one read his original post and not understand he is looking for historically valid solutions to problems he sees in the campaign setting?
That's exactly the way I read it. Then again, my default switch is set to "historically accurate" so I don't think I'm the best judge in the matter. Actually, I'm almost never the best judge in any matter.
-clash
Quote from: Warthur;250495Is English your first language? I'm genuinely not trying to have a poke at you, but the difference between historical reality and genre conventions is pretty damn vast, to the point where some of your posts are only making sense to me if I assume you have a loose grasp of English.
Yes, it is.
Although given the simple explanation in my OP, I'm wondering how you've managed to be so confused:
QuoteOld West, 1878, with a moderate deviation from history (does not affect technology or major political developments).
I understand being short on time, but its not an excuse. Either read the whole thread, or stay out of it. Otherwise, you come off as rather obtuse.
Quote from: gleichman;250526That's my impression as well.
He's not coming off some much as a West elitist (he'd know the answers to the question he's put forth if he was), as someone who's basically ignorant of American language and culture.
I doubt we're going to figure out the truth of it, he's not responding to our points- insists on continuing the confusing language and even seems unaware of revisionist Westerns that Koltar cited.
I'm tossing him on my IL as someone not worth dealing with and calling it quits.
An ignoble retreat following a failure to understand the initial question posed.
Still, no harm done.
PC Koltar Smith - nice touch in the example.
Although to fit in the period better an NPC could be named Colt R. Smith. Close enough phonetically that it would be cool.
Or if you have an ally NPC lawman or researcher named Wayne Charlton that likes to use either a Colt as his main weapon or whatever is closest to a Ruger. (That gun company doesn't get started till the 1940s) Maybe a Winchester would work.
I'll have to call my Father - he's the gun expert in the family.
- Ed C.
Quote from: Koltar;250553PC Koltar Smith - nice touch in the example.
Although to fit in the period better an NPC could be named Colt R. Smith. Close enough phonetically that it would be cool.
Or if you have an ally NPC lawman or researcher named Wayne Charlton that likes to use either a Colt as his main weapon or whatever is closest to a Ruger. (That gun company doesn't get started till the 1940s) Maybe a Winchester would work.
I'll have to call my Father - he's the gun expert in the family.
- Ed C.
By coincidence, Wayne Charlton happens to be a Texas Ranger stationed near San Angelo (the PCs start in Texas, so the players can use personal knowledge of terrain & climate).
Quote from: flyingmice;250545Nice trick. It does, however, require the GM to have an in-depth knowledge of the relevant techniques and procedures. If you could codify that knowledge so a tyro could run it, you'd have a game product a lot of people would like.
-clash
Thanks. I tried once but swiftly bogged down.
Quote from: CavScout;250529Old West, 1878, with a moderate deviation from history (does not affect technology or major political developments).
There is nothing wrong with his English, though there is likely a problem with your comprehension of what he stated he was looking for.
I was referring specifically to the assertion that "history=genre", an equivalence that nobody who knows the meaning of those two words would propose.
Quote from: OneTinSoldier;250514Neither player has to know how to conduct the investigation; the techincal knowledge is vested in their PCs. I will explain what was found.
What the players will have to deduce is why the victim was killed, and why they burned his hand.
OK, with you so far.
So, how does your required knowledge-correlation-centre tie in with this?
Quote from: OneTinSoldier;250548Although given the simple explanation in my OP, I'm wondering how you've managed to be so confused:
My point of confusion is this:
When you say "history=genre", are you saying "in this particular situation, the genre is 'The Historical West'", or are you saying "In general, the Western genre and the historical West are equivalent?"
The former is not problematic for me. The latter is, and seemed in the context in question to be what you were saying.
Quote from: Warthur;250571OK, with you so far.
So, how does your required knowledge-correlation-centre tie in with this?
OK, the first example was direct evidence: a murder scene.
Now, say the PCs follow up on the murder scene, track down the killer, who has a sacred object in his possesstion.
Now, a roll on a archeology skill could ID it as Tibetian. But its unlikely that the PC could tell you much more than that without referencing written works on the subject-the oddss of the PC being a dedicated expert in Tibetian occult is unlikely (and counter-productive in the greater scope of things).
Reference to a book on similar occult subjects could yield that it was used by a murder-cult; however, there is a difdference between what the book shows, and the object: there is a symbol in it that appeats to be Egyptian in nature.
So now the PC will need access to a wider range of books, on murder cults, Tibetian cults, and Egypitian cults.
In this case, the skill requires a prior condition to come into play: basic knowledge skill (its Tibetian); intermediate knowledge (what book to look up the subject); advanced (need a range of books, to tie down the discrepancies & connections).
So PC Dr. F. Mice, curator of the London Museum on sabbbatical, examines the object (good roll), and says it Tibetian-now, do I have C. Scout's work on central Asian cults? Why, yes I do. (skill roll). Hmmm...that's odd. Something doesn't quite fit. C. Scout is very clear regarding the type of invocation, but the engraving here has symbols which look a bit like early Upper Nile...odd, that. If I could do a spot of cross-checking..."
And so it goes.
Quote from: Warthur;250577My point of confusion is this:
When you say "history=genre", are you saying "in this particular situation, the genre is 'The Historical West'", or are you saying "In general, the Western genre and the historical West are equivalent?"
The former is not problematic for me. The latter is, and seemed in the context in question to be what you were saying.
Ok. What I was trying to say, quickly so as to put the thread back on track, was that the historic Old West
was the setting, with minor alterations which were clearly set out for the players.
Its the same as writers of historical fiction: Lonesome Dove, to use an example, is based on a Texas cattleman (Ford) who drove a huge herd to Montana and started a financial empire there, and several other historic figures (the transporting of the body back to Austin was another copy of a real event; Blue Duck was a combination of several criminals; the Slugg brothers likewise).
The genre is the historical Old West. There's a decent setting called Coyote Trail which likewise protrays the West as it was, not as Hollywood shows it.
OneTinS.,
There is a Wikepedia page for that year that may or may not be usful:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1878
The part of the Wold Newton Universe timeline that includes the 1870s:
http://www.pjfarmer.com/woldnewton/Chron3.htm
Again you might find it useful or interesting or not.....
Wold Newton has got this:
Quote1873 - First recorded adventure of Jonah Hex (All-Star Western No. 10, DC Comics; click here for more information).
1874 - Birth of Richard Hannay. Hannay's uncle, William Drummond, is the grandfather of Hugh "Bulldog" Drummond and John "Korak" Drummond-Clayton. Hannay's maternal grandmother is Oread Butler, a cousin of Rhett Butler (Gone With the Wind).
1874 - Birth of Arsène Lupin.
Also this stuff:
Quote1878 - The events of Robert Louis Stevenson's The Suicide Club, found in the volume entitled New Arabian Nights. The story's Prince Florizel of Bohemia also appeared in the same volume's The Rajah's Diamond and would be seen again in Watson's/Doyle's A Scandal in Bohemia. The "celebrated detective" who is indirectly involved in these events is clearly Sherlock Holmes. And the tall man with a heavy stoop who declines to assist the Prince is Colonel James Moriarty. Finally, as Rick Lai demonstrated in his article, The Secret History of Captain Nemo, Dr. Noel, the retired master criminal who assists in the case, is the father of the first Professor James Moriarty and the second Professor James Moriarty. (See Edgar W. Smith's A Scandal in Identity in the volume Profile in Gaslight, Simon & Schuster, 1944; see also Jack Tracy's Some Thoughts on the Suicide Club in The Baker Street Journal, New Series, Vol. 22, #2, June, 1972.)
1878 - The Lone Ranger helps out Robert Walker, the son of lawman called "Six Gun" Walker. "Six Gun," who died in 1872, left his land and property to Robert, who has lived his entire life abroad. (Television episode of The Lone Ranger entitled Six Gun's Legacy.) Wold Newton researcher Chuck Loridans postulates that "Six Gun" Walker is actually the 16th Phantom, also called the Masked Cowboy. The Phantom Chronology indicates that the 16th Phantom operated during the1840s-60s and that he died sometime after 1867. Masked Men: A Chronology of the Lone Ranger and the Green Hornet demonstrates that the first season of the Lone Ranger television series took place around 1878. It is possible that 16th Phantom and his wife, Texan Annie Morgan, had another child, born several years after the twins Kip (the 17th Phantom) and Julie (according to some the 18th Phantom), named Robert. The 16th Phantom died in 1872, and his younger son, who would not receive the Phantom birthright, did inherit his father's land in Texas, and returned to permanently settle there. Perhaps he is an ancestor of the modern-day kick-boxing Texas Ranger (see TV Crossovers), as well as Los Angeles policewoman Darcy Walker, better known as The Black Scorpion.
c. Late 1870s - The events of The Bostonians, as chronicled by Henry James.
Have fun with the possible connections to Lovecraftian stuff....
- Ed C.
Quote from: flyingmice;250547That's exactly the way I read it. Then again, my default switch is set to "historically accurate" so I don't think I'm the best judge in the matter. Actually, I'm almost never the best judge in any matter.
It would seem some have inserted "I don't like the background he has chosen" with "He doesn't know how to use English to write a question that I would clearly understand." :idunno:
Quote from: Warthur;250577My point of confusion is this:
When you say "history=genre", are you saying "in this particular situation, the genre is 'The Historical West'", or are you saying "In general, the Western genre and the historical West are equivalent?"
The former is not problematic for me. The latter is, and seemed in the context in question to be what you were saying.
I'd suggest reading what he wrote and not interjecting your own interpretations and/or biases into it. He didn't mention "genre". He laid out the historical requirements for his setting and then asked for a solution to a problem he was having.
By-the-way, folks in that time period , books were also thought of as a primary entertainment if there wasn't a theater or dancehall in the nearby town.
Not everyone was the most literate - but literacy was well-thought of.
This was also the time period when Dime Novels became popular:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dime_novels
This passage is very relevant to OneTinSoldier's campaign era:
QuoteBeadle's Dime Novels were immediately popular, owing to an increased literacy in the population around the time of the American Civil War, and by the war's end there were numerous competitors like George Munro and Robert DeWitt crowding the field, distinguishing their product only by title and the color choice of the paper wrappers. Even Beadle & Adams had their own alternate "brands", such as the Frank Starr line. As a whole, the quality of the fiction was derided by higher brow critics and the term 'dime novel' quickly came to represent any form of cheap, sensational fiction, rather than the specific format.
People on the frontier LIKED to read, same for the midwest and back east of the time.
- Ed C.
Quote from: OneTinSoldier;250585So PC Dr. F. Mice, curator of the London Museum on sabbbatical, examines the object (good roll), and says it Tibetian-now, do I have C. Scout's work on central Asian cults? Why, yes I do. (skill roll). Hmmm...that's odd. Something doesn't quite fit. C. Scout is very clear regarding the type of invocation, but the engraving here has symbols which look a bit like early Upper Nile...odd, that. If I could do a spot of cross-checking..."
And so it goes.
I'm not a doctor, but I play one as PC.
-clash
Quote from: CavScout;250623I'd suggest reading what he wrote and not interjecting your own interpretations and/or biases into it. He didn't mention "genre". He laid out the historical requirements for his setting and then asked for a solution to a problem he was having.
I'd suggest reading the damn thread, and paying close attention to the bit where he says "history=genre". It was ambiguous, and that's been cleared up; there's no need for you to wail about it further on OneTin's behalf.
You know, I can't remember any time where your participation in a thread hasn't involved giving people a hard time. What's up with that, crankyboots?
Quote from: Warthur;251079I'd suggest reading the damn thread, and paying close attention to the bit where he says "history=genre". It was ambiguous, and that's been cleared up; there's no need for you to wail about it further on OneTin's behalf.
You know, I can't remember any time where your participation in a thread hasn't involved giving people a hard time. What's up with that, crankyboots?
Actually, reading the whole thread would show that I made it simple & clear in the OP, and then it was a poster thread-crapping that started the whole mess.
Your remarks in this thread certainly added nothing to the situation for which I was seeking help.
And your failure to read a full thread before jumping in is exactly how you ended up embarassing yourself:
Quote from: WarthurEd, cut me some slack. I have about an hour a day in which I can browse therpgsite; I can't always read threads to the end every time I reply
Follow your own advice: you should start reading an entire thread before you start sounding off. I understand you feel a need to participate, but perhaps if you knew what was being discussed, you might make a contribution. Whining about your time constraints certainly isn't much of an excuse.
Quote from: Warthur;251079I'd suggest reading the damn thread, and paying close attention to the bit where he says "history=genre". It was ambiguous, and that's been cleared up; there's no need for you to wail about it further on OneTin's behalf.
Except he doesn't say that. He said "The genre is the historical Old West". The genere he is playing in is
historical old west.
Quote from: Warthur;251079You know, I can't remember any time where your participation in a thread hasn't involved giving people a hard time. What's up with that, crankyboots?
Funny comming from one of two guys giving the OP a hard time. Well, not funny really...
OneTinS.,
Did you find any of my links useful?
Also, Dad called me back after the message I left on his machine.
He recommends for the NPC guy: a Winchester 1873 44-40 lever action for a longarm weapon, for a handgun he said to go with an 1873 Colt Peacemaker single action. ( I scribbled notes wjile he talked)
Back in the 1970s, my Dad was the Gun Expert for a magazine called HUNTING DOG. He had a regular column in there called: "Ask Bob About Guns".
- Ed C.
Quote from: OneTinSoldier;249958A pack mule can only carry 225lbs, and requires a minimum of 8lbs of water and 4-6 pounds of grain a day.
Quote from: OneTinSoldier;249965True, but you can't forage for grain.
I know I'm reaching way back here, but remember that wheat's just grass that's been long-bred for yield. Left to its own devices in the wilderness, a pack mule will find plenty of forage, not just the high-energy grains but also just...well, to be honest, whatever the fuck gets near its mouth and looks sort of plant-like. Hard travel makes this harder, particularly if the mule's loaded, but they forage really, really well, particularly in grasslands but even in forests; only in painful scrub land - and this is something the players would do well to remember - will the mule need supplemental grain. [Horses are, depending on the breed, much more demanding of supplemental grains, but in the prairies, provided they don't colic, they'll do all right.] Think about the hundreds of mules that crossed the nation in those days; they couldn't all have been carrying all the grain they needed on their own backs, or they've have been useless! :)
I think this idea, and its [theoretical] execution sounds most excellent, and I think it's too bad that some people are focused on mean-spirited criticism, and not constructive suggestions. Are there still-unanswered questions the rest of us might aid you with?
Quote from: Koltar;251225OneTinS.,
Did you find any of my links useful?
Also, Dad called me back after the message I left on his machine.
He recommends for the NPC guy: a Winchester 1873 44-40 lever action for a longarm weapon, for a handgun he said to go with an 1873 Colt Peacemaker single action. ( I scribbled notes wjile he talked)
Back in the 1970s, my Dad was the Gun Expert for a magazine called HUNTING DOG. He had a regular column in there called: "Ask Bob About Guns".
- Ed C.
Very good choice. The Winchester would be the 'Yellowboy', I imagine.
The links are bookmarked and being throughly mined. Many, many thanks!
Quote from: Engine;251241I know I'm reaching way back here, but remember that wheat's just grass that's been long-bred for yield. Left to its own devices in the wilderness, a pack mule will find plenty of forage, not just the high-energy grains but also just...well, to be honest, whatever the fuck gets near its mouth and looks sort of plant-like. Hard travel makes this harder, particularly if the mule's loaded, but they forage really, really well, particularly in grasslands but even in forests; only in painful scrub land - and this is something the players would do well to remember - will the mule need supplemental grain. [Horses are, depending on the breed, much more demanding of supplemental grains, but in the prairies, provided they don't colic, they'll do all right.] Think about the hundreds of mules that crossed the nation in those days; they couldn't all have been carrying all the grain they needed on their own backs, or they've have been useless! :)
I think this idea, and its [theoretical] execution sounds most excellent, and I think it's too bad that some people are focused on mean-spirited criticism, and not constructive suggestions. Are there still-unanswered questions the rest of us might aid you with?
You raise very good points about the mules. I was thinking of the PCs riding hard over extended periods, so that grazing time would be minimal. I'll have to give this careful thought. I'm using a pdf of an 1880s British Army manual as a reference, as my horsemanship is rather primitive.
In your opinion, how much grazing would a mule require in a given day after a full day's travel (say 18-20 miles across fairly rough ground, or twenty-five on easier terrain) with a loaded pack saddle?
Let me preface this by saying IANAME [I Am Not A Mule Expert], but based on what I know, the mule will be able to forage sufficiently if allowed the same amount of "rest and graze" time as the horses. They'll do this on their own anytime you're going slow [and I hope you're not planning to gallop for hours with the loaded mule!] and can generally feed themselves just fine within the span of your afternoon lunch break and your evening camp. Given the distances-per-day you're talking about, they'll be able to do all the grazing they need in maybe an hour of time, although they'll naturally stretch it to a few minutes, here and there, over several hours.
Honestly, the mule feed requirements are simpler than the horses': mules won't eat until they colic like a horse will, and they can subsist on much lower-quality grasses. They also need only about a third as much high-energy feed - that's your corn and grains - as the equivalent working horse! [They're smarter, too. Seriously, mules are most excellent.] On a run through scrublands, the players would actually be much, much better off all riding mules, rather than horses, because the mules will eat the scrub more readily, and need less seed grass. They're not as fast, but when you're traveling cross-country, it's not speed, but endurance and ability to exist in harsh environments; mules have these in spades.
Also, mules react to shortage of water like camels, which is very unlike horses, who will stupidly get thirsty quickly, then drink until they die. I like horses, but they're really not very practical animals in harsh environments.
Quote from: Engine;251555Let me preface this by saying IANAME [I Am Not A Mule Expert], but based on what I know, the mule will be able to forage sufficiently if allowed the same amount of "rest and graze" time as the horses. They'll do this on their own anytime you're going slow [and I hope you're not planning to gallop for hours with the loaded mule!] and can generally feed themselves just fine within the span of your afternoon lunch break and your evening camp. Given the distances-per-day you're talking about, they'll be able to do all the grazing they need in maybe an hour of time, although they'll naturally stretch it to a few minutes, here and there, over several hours.
Honestly, the mule feed requirements are simpler than the horses': mules won't eat until they colic like a horse will, and they can subsist on much lower-quality grasses. They also need only about a third as much high-energy feed - that's your corn and grains - as the equivalent working horse! [They're smarter, too. Seriously, mules are most excellent.] On a run through scrublands, the players would actually be much, much better off all riding mules, rather than horses, because the mules will eat the scrub more readily, and need less seed grass. They're not as fast, but when you're traveling cross-country, it's not speed, but endurance and ability to exist in harsh environments; mules have these in spades.
Also, mules react to shortage of water like camels, which is very unlike horses, who will stupidly get thirsty quickly, then drink until they die. I like horses, but they're really not very practical animals in harsh environments.
Interesting. You may not be an expert, but you know a lot more than I do on the subject, so the effect is the same.
No, we will not be doing the Hollywood 'full throttle'. ;)
I know mules are smarter than horses (and tougher, too). I didn't know about the grazing habits.
I agree that mules would make better mounts for general travel, particularly in Texas, where the PCs start out; however, horses do have one important asset which comes into play in this period: they are dumb enough to be ridden virtually to death. If you are running from the Indians, that is an important option. A mule will not kill itself for its rider.
This has been very helpful-thanks!
With all that in mind - maybe your PC adventuring/investigating party could have a mix of horses and mules in their group.
Maybe if none of the players wants a mule for a mount - you could toss n a sidekick NPC that prefers mules.
OR : An NPC like that might only be in your campaign for a couple of sessions - because he (or she) is a local source of information and also proves to be somewhat useful in a fight as back-up.
- Ed C.
Quote from: Koltar;251573With all that in mind - maybe your PC adventuring/investigating party could have a mix of horses and mules in their group.
Maybe if none of the players wants a mule for a mount - you could toss n a sidekick NPC that prefers mules.
OR : An NPC like that might only be in your campaign for a couple of sessions - because he (or she) is a local source of information and also proves to be somewhat useful in a fight as back-up.
- Ed C.
True.
Plus the PCs will need pack mules-even discounting the library, they are going to need to carry supplies, and several classes have requirements that will not allow living out of saddlebags.
Plus, being themselves, they will want more ammunition than will ever be needed, and since dynamite is avalible 'over the counter', you can rest assured they will have a case of that along.
Well, what it sounds like they really need is a wagon, which comes with its own excitements.
The great thing is, you can prevent overland travel from becoming mundane simply by mixing up the requirements. One thing about players is that they'll always figure out the best and simplest way of getting around whatever obstacles you put in their path, and then just keep doing it over and over. [The example that comes readily to mind is the "watch schedule," a player favorite, as well as "marching order."] But if one adventure requires fast overland movement, they're going to have to leave some stuff behind and figure out how to make it with only horses and what those horses can carry; if another requires travel across a harsh environment, they may need to find a trader and trade their horses for mules; if they're going to need to take explosives and books and guns, maybe they'll need a wagon, which means they have to stick to established roadlike paths. It can mix things up, and keep them always thinking, and prevent overland travel from seeming mundane, when it fact it's a much greater challenge than what they'll likely face when they get there.
Quote from: Engine;251584Well, what it sounds like they really need is a wagon, which comes with its own excitements.
The great thing is, you can prevent overland travel from becoming mundane simply by mixing up the requirements. One thing about players is that they'll always figure out the best and simplest way of getting around whatever obstacles you put in their path, and then just keep doing it over and over. [The example that comes readily to mind is the "watch schedule," a player favorite, as well as "marching order."] But if one adventure requires fast overland movement, they're going to have to leave some stuff behind and figure out how to make it with only horses and what those horses can carry; if another requires travel across a harsh environment, they may need to find a trader and trade their horses for mules; if they're going to need to take explosives and books and guns, maybe they'll need a wagon, which means they have to stick to established roadlike paths. It can mix things up, and keep them always thinking, and prevent overland travel from seeming mundane, when it fact it's a much greater challenge than what they'll likely face when they get there.
Trust me, travel is never simple in my campaigns.
Water is a good issue to use in the Old West, as many parts of the Great Plans are very, very dry, and frequently require traveling from water point to water point rather than in a straight line, especially in Texas summers.
Wagons are great, but as you noted, they're mostly road-bound.
IMO, a good GM uses every possible aspect of the campaign setting to present challenges to the PCs.
Firearms are the same way. You get west of San Angelo/Abeline, you're on the high plains; a good place for a Spencer rifle, Sharps or Springfield in .45-70, etc. because you'll be shooting at a distance.
More to the east, in the hill country, carbines such as Koltar's Winchester Yellowboy, or a Spencer carbine are going to be important, because fights will be closer and lots of cover means you'll need to fire suppression as much as anything.
But when you hit the huge mesquite and cedar breaks a bit south of that, handguns or short-barrelled shotguns would be best, because visibility is going to be very close, and speed in reaction is going to be life or death.
Never make it easy. :D