Quote from: OneTinSoldier;250462I am running a genre West. History=genre.

And the question wasn't regarding setting, it was regarding how PCs with the proper academic background could gain access to suitable reference libraries in the Old West.

Not whether 'book learning' was or was not historically accurate, or even Hollywood accurate, but rather a non-gimmick-y method of PC access to such a library.

A question still partially unanswered. Any suggestions?

How about a private library? A transplanted wealthy easterner - like Maverick or Roosevelt - who has a private collection.

-clash

Quote from: OneTinSoldier;250204But to operate a three or four tier deception (remember, I'm looking at 50+ weekly sessions), its going to be a great deal deeper than some weird goings-on out at the old mine. No NPC will have all or even a fraction of the information needed.

So the PCs will have to cross-reference the raw data they obtain from interview/interrogation/canvas, physical evidence found at various scenes, and link analysis of events. They will have to research the root data involved, and cross-reference the resulting data.

Frankly, I think any problem that the players can't keep track of themselves in a standard spiral-bound notebook is too hellishly complicated for the RPG format.

I think you are allowing your professional knowledge of modern investigative techniques creep in too much. Remember, while this might be an investigative game it's also a Western. Painstakingly documented police work is as out of place as Miranda rights. Did Pinkerton operatives in the Old West really work like that? And even if it did, is this going to be fun for people who aren't actually police officers to play through?

Have you thought of chopping up your big mystery into a heap of smaller mysteries, and have them winding inexorably towards the central key mystery. (This would incidentally provide some useful redundancy, in case one branch of the investigation flops.)

Quote from: flyingmice;250483How about a private library? A transplanted wealthy easterner - like Maverick or Roosevelt - who has a private collection.

-clash

....damn.

That's brilliant.

Plus, it would mean a quid pro quo; to use said library, they would have to pay, and a rich man would be less interested in money than things hard to come by. Make him a collecter of Indian artifacts, say.

Excellent. The last piece in the puzzle. My thanks!

Quote from: Warthur;250488Frankly, I think any problem that the players can't keep track of themselves in a standard spiral-bound notebook is too hellishly complicated for the RPG format.

I think you are allowing your professional knowledge of modern investigative techniques creep in too much. Remember, while this might be an investigative game it's also a Western. Painstakingly documented police work is as out of place as Miranda rights. Did Pinkerton operatives in the Old West really work like that? And even if it did, is this going to be fun for people who aren't actually police officers to play through?

Have you thought of chopping up your big mystery into a heap of smaller mysteries, and have them winding inexorably towards the central key mystery. (This would incidentally provide some useful redundancy, in case one branch of the investigation flops.)

Actually, the Pinkertons pioneered painstaking data collection, and undercover operations-its how they broke several union efforts. The methods used will be period-appropriate.

But difficult for the PCs does not equate into painstaking for the players. There are always investigative aspects to my campaigns. I use 'PC tough, player-friendly' data methods.

And yes, a tier deception is just what you've described: a central truth hidden under several layers of deception. And I always have redundant paths-anything else is a railroad.

Quote from: OneTinSoldier;250435Bending the genre? Hardly.

SNIP

Quote'Book learning'? Absolutely essential to the genre. Anything else would be terribly inappropriate. The West was built by men of education backed by Eastern money-they surveyed the land, fought legal battles whose precedents form the foundations of modern title law, and built up half the state organizations and penal codes of the USA.

All of the facts you quoted up there are true. Few of them are actually reflected in actual Westerns.

The Western, as a literary genre, has very little to do with the actual Old West, but pitch an Old West game to people and 99% will assume the conventions of the literary genre, however inappropriate. Forget solving these niggling problems about how your players are going to collate their data - you need to think about how to make them forget the tropes of the genre. That is going to be your number one problem.

(Incidentally, could you PM me the details of the mystery the campaign is going to be about? My curiosity is raging.)

Quote from: OneTinSoldier;250462I am running a genre West. History=genre.

Of course.

That's why the TV cop genre is so accurate.

Is English your first language? I'm genuinely not trying to have a poke at you, but the difference between historical reality and genre conventions is pretty damn vast, to the point where some of your posts are only making sense to me if I assume you have a loose grasp of English.

Warthur - Did you miss that OneTin already shot down that argument several posts ago?

He is not going for "Genre-Western" - and his players KNOW that. They all live in an area that used to be the 'Old West' , so they're pretty familiar with the earea and several historical references.

If anything, OneTinSoldier is being true to later 'revisionist modern westerns' that were made for movies and TV from about 1970 to the present. There has been a 30 years long trend of trying to get more realism into movie and TV westerns.

Heck, the recent version of 3:10 to Yuma showed the bad guy as being a bit literate, a decent amateur sketch artist (at least good enough for portraits & life drawing)

Damn.
 This campaign idea of his sounds so cool - I wish I was going to be one of the players in the campaign.


- Ed C.

Quote from: OneTinSoldier;250493Actually, the Pinkertons pioneered painstaking data collection, and undercover operations-its how they broke several union efforts. The methods used will be period-appropriate.

But difficult for the PCs does not equate into painstaking for the players. There are always investigative aspects to my campaigns. I use 'PC tough, player-friendly' data methods.

Out of interest, where do you set the balance in terms of investigative work handled with dice rolls vs. players puzzling out the clues themselves? I always find that having not enough of the latter defeats the point of an investigative game.

Quote from: Koltar;250496Warthur - Did you miss that OneTin already shot down that argument several posts ago?

Ed, cut me some slack. I have about an hour a day in which I can browse therpgsite; I can't always read threads to the end every time I reply.

Quote from: Warthur;250497Out of interest, where do you set the balance in terms of investigative work handled with dice rolls vs. players puzzling out the clues themselves? I always find that having not enough of the latter defeats the point of an investigative game.

I use a d10 pool system, with a variety of skills and a cumulative success requirement.

I balance between PC knowledge and player deduction.

For example, a murder scene.

PC Warthur O'Rielly processes the scene (Process scene skill, sketch skill).

His player makes sufficent rolls. Now, Warthur the PC knows about blood splatter, and drag angles. So I tell his player that his PC has, after seven hours of examination and collection, established that the victim was killed while sitting in the rocking chair in the corner, and then was moved to a position by the fireplace.

PC Koltar Smith examines the body (forensic pathology skill, a suifficent roll), and I explain to his player that after a three hour autopsy, he determined that the victim was killed with a thrust from a narrow-bladed knife; from the angle of the wound the attacker was right-handed, and experienced in blade worek (only one wound, no hesitation marks, etc). The body lay in the chair for about an hour (lividity), and then was moved to the fireplace, where the right hand was seared in the fire post-death. The delay between death and movement would be consistant with getting a fire to the desired temperature.

Neither player has to know how to conduct the investigation; the techincal knowledge is vested in their PCs. I will explain what was found.

What the players will have to deduce is why the victim was killed, and why they burned his hand.

Quote from: Warthur;250495Is English your first language? I'm genuinely not trying to have a poke at you, but the difference between historical reality and genre conventions is pretty damn vast, to the point where some of your posts are only making sense to me if I assume you have a loose grasp of English.

That's my impression as well.

He's not coming off some much as a West elitist (he'd know the answers to the question he's put forth if he was), as someone who's basically ignorant of American language and culture.

I doubt we're going to figure out the truth of it, he's not responding to our points- insists on continuing the confusing language and even seems unaware of revisionist Westerns that Koltar cited.

I'm tossing him on my IL as someone not worth dealing with and calling it quits.

Quote from: Warthur;250495Is English your first language? I'm genuinely not trying to have a poke at you, but the difference between historical reality and genre conventions is pretty damn vast, to the point where some of your posts are only making sense to me if I assume you have a loose grasp of English.

   Old West, 1878, with a moderate deviation from history (does not affect technology or major political developments).

There is nothing wrong with his English, though there is likely a problem with your comprehension of what he stated he was looking for.

How  does one read his original post and not understand he is looking for historically valid solutions to problems he sees in the campaign setting?

Quote from: OneTinSoldier;250514I use a d10 pool system, with a variety of skills and a cumulative success requirement.

I balance between PC knowledge and player deduction.

For example, a murder scene.

PC Warthur O'Rielly processes the scene (Process scene skill, sketch skill).

His player makes sufficent rolls. Now, Warthur the PC knows about blood splatter, and drag angles. So I tell his player that his PC has, after seven hours of examination and collection, established that the victim was killed while sitting in the rocking chair in the corner, and then was moved to a position by the fireplace.

PC Koltar Smith examines the body (forensic pathology skill, a suifficent roll), and I explain to his player that after a three hour autopsy, he determined that the victim was killed with a thrust from a narrow-bladed knife; from the angle of the wound the attacker was right-handed, and experienced in blade worek (only one wound, no hesitation marks, etc). The body lay in the chair for about an hour (lividity), and then was moved to the fireplace, where the right hand was seared in the fire post-death. The delay between death and movement would be consistant with getting a fire to the desired temperature.

Neither player has to know how to conduct the investigation; the techincal knowledge is vested in their PCs. I will explain what was found.

What the players will have to deduce is why the victim was killed, and why they burned his hand.

Nice trick. It does, however, require the GM to have an in-depth knowledge of the relevant techniques and procedures. If you could codify that knowledge so a tyro could run it, you'd have a game product a lot of people would like.

-clash

Quote from: CavScout;250529Old West, 1878, with a moderate deviation from history (does not affect technology or major political developments).

There is nothing wrong with his English, though there is likely a problem with your comprehension of what he stated he was looking for.

How  does one read his original post and not understand he is looking for historically valid solutions to problems he sees in the campaign setting?

That's exactly the way I read it. Then again, my default switch is set to "historically accurate" so I don't think I'm the best judge in the matter. Actually, I'm almost never the best judge in any matter.

-clash

Quote from: Warthur;250495Is English your first language? I'm genuinely not trying to have a poke at you, but the difference between historical reality and genre conventions is pretty damn vast, to the point where some of your posts are only making sense to me if I assume you have a loose grasp of English.

Yes, it is.

Although given the simple explanation in my OP, I'm wondering how you've managed to be so confused:

QuoteOld West, 1878, with a moderate deviation from history (does not affect technology or major political developments).

I understand being short on time, but its not an excuse. Either read the whole thread, or stay out of it. Otherwise, you come off as rather obtuse.