Aaron Alston has done pretty well for himself.

Careful all this logic might mean people have to change their opinions!

Quote from: Serious PaulCareful all this logic might mean people have to change their opinions!

Please. Logic has never been your strong suit and appealing to it now only proves it.

Go back and look at my first post on this subject. So far all the names mentioned match my original statement exactly. They all did traditional game design, and weren't interested in making games more like 'writing'.

Some (like Weber) started with game design and then moved on.

No one has mention a writer or director attempting to make a game into writing or directing. Although Weber almost attempts to make his writing more like a game

At this point, even if one did- it would almost be the exception that proved the rule.

Quote from: Abyssal MawThis to me is the put-up-or-shut-up danger of trying to make gaming into a performance art rather than an entertaining activity. You can suck at it. You think your'e a master thespian? Film it. Record it.  Put it on Youtube. Put it up for download so we can all act as an audience armed with salmonella-tomatoes and bouquets of sweet, sweet roses. Let the people judge. There's nothing to fear here but your own mediocrity, so all of the improv advocates need to start putting their shit up so we can see it.

My squat and ugly friend, having done a fair bit of acting, and having a wife who won awards for her short films, I can say without fear that I at least could put something out there that wouldn't suck. If I could be arsed.

Because what you're either missing or ignoring is that roleplaying is a thing for your group. Audience and performers are the same. I can only say that my eyes tend to glaze over at actual play writeups (when they're not mine, of course) whatever their type of game, but that's because I wasn't there.



[Personally, I've never done improv. That's some kind of acting for people who aren't actors, right?]

Quote from: gleichmanNo one has mention a writer or director attempting to make a game into writing or directing.

I didn't even know this was the goal. I'm not even sure anymore what you're trying to prove; I remember long ago there was a tortured metaphor about frustrated writers and directors, and frustrated wargamers, but I can't even remember what that was supposed to prove, and now people are arguing the content of the metaphor without reference to the thing the metaphor represents.

So could you do me a favor and restate your thesis?

Quote from: Abyssal MawThis to me is the put-up-or-shut-up danger of trying to make gaming into a performance art rather than an entertaining activity. You can suck at it. You think your'e a master thespian? Film it. Record it.  Put it on Youtube. Put it up for download so we can all act as an audience armed with salmonella-tomatoes and bouquets of sweet, sweet roses. Let the people judge. There's nothing to fear here but your own mediocrity, so all of the improv advocates need to start putting their shit up so we can see it.  

Would taking a picture of the award I won for drama while working with the Pacific Conservatory for the Performing Arts suffice? I admit, it was back in High School and thus 21 years ago, but I joined the theater group so that I could do more Role-Playing (which, just happens to be one of the major enjoyments I get out of RPGs).

Quote from: droog[Personally, I've never done improv. That's some kind of acting for people who aren't actors, right?]

It's either acting for people who also want to be writers, or for actors who want to be funny actors, or for actors who want to be better actors [particularly on stage]. It can be a phenomenal tool; it can also be a terrible, terrible waste of time. Like roleplaying - which is just improv with a complicated board game added on, if you think of it - it can be exceptional or pedestrian or mind-rippingly bad: these three are distributed in a bell curve, like so many other things.

Quote from: EngineLike roleplaying - which is just improv with a complicated board game added on, if you think of it -

I'm not so sure roleplaying is necessarily connected with improv acting. I mean, sure people slip into funny voices, but that happens even when you talk about movies.

Quote from: gleichmanIt's very easy to be recognised for one's rpg in one's own group. And generally easier to get rpg gamers to sit still for it than it is to get people to read bad writing or watch a crappy youtube production.

Oh, not at all, provided you include the caveat you included for roleplaying: "in one's own group." People will put up with a lot for their friends, or even just people they know. I've sat through many hours of piss-poor live performances because some girl I was dating was playing bass. I've watched more hours of bad film than I can count because someone I knew made it. [And those people have had to sit through many hours of my compositions; no idea if they were bad or not, but I'll tell you my fan base is almost entirely people I know personally.]

If you were to roleplay in public, and draw a crowd, well that would really be something, wouldn't it? Improv which draws an audience is exceptional improv. Game reports or transcripts or [heavens forfend] recordings which got an audience would need to be really quite good to get a viewership, absolutely.

But we can't be drawing lines around with all these metaphors and not recognizing their differences.

Quote from: droogI'm not so sure roleplaying is necessarily connected with improv acting. I mean, sure people slip into funny voices, but that happens even when you talk about movies.

It's going to depend strongly on your group how much it's like improv, but ultimately, you're playing a role, even if you never speak in-character, and that's improv-ish, yeah? And if you're not playing a role, you're literally not roleplaying, you're wargaming, which is also fun and there's nothing wrong with it.

Quote from: Enginebut ultimately, you're playing a role, even if you never speak in-character, and that's improv-ish, yeah?

Is it? If no acting is involved?

Quote from: droogIs it? If no acting is involved?

I'd call it arguable? I do think it'd be pretty lame improv if you were just being yourself and saying, "Yeah, then I cry." So good point. That's the "-ish" in my "improv-ish."

I also think roleplaying with no acting is pretty lame, but that's my personal opinion. What good is it to take a role if all you do is describe it? But everyone has differing notions of fun.

Quote from: EngineI didn't even know this was the goal. I'm not even sure anymore what you're trying to prove; I remember long ago there was a tortured metaphor about frustrated writers and directors, and frustrated wargamers, but I can't even remember what that was supposed to prove, and now people are arguing the content of the metaphor without reference to the thing the metaphor represents.

So could you do me a favor and restate your thesis?

It's wandered a bit...

My first point was that labels for Frustrated Director and Frustrated Writer are far more meaningful and common than the made up label of Frustrated Wargamer. They come with more baggage and the expectation of professional success/failure that doesn't exist with wargaming. Thus Frustrated Wargamer is an inappropriate label- one should instead use the already existing power gamer, munchkin, etc if you need to



The second point isn't really connected to the first, but developed out of it.

A successful Director or Writer will not enter the rpg hobby in order to make rpgs more like movies or books. Rather they will enter the hobby to escape the limits of movies and books. So for the most part, they won't be attempting to make rpgs more like books/movies- they'll be playing traditional rpgs.

A Frustrated Director/Writer on the other hand will be looking for the success that failed him in real life within the RPG. Thus he will attempt to make the RPG more like a movie or book.


The wargamer on the other hand is unlikely to move an rpg towards a wargame in any event. He'll just play a wargame, or he'll play an rpg to escape the limits of a wargame. Traditional designs will suit him just fine.

Quote from: gleichmanMy first point was that labels for Frustrated Director and Frustrated Writer are far more meaningful and common than the made up label of Frustrated Wargamer. They come with more baggage and the expectation of professional success/failure that doesn't exist with wargaming.

I'm with you.

Quote from: gleichmanThus Frustrated Wargamer is an inappropriate label- one should instead use the already existing power gamer, munchkin, etc if you need to

If Frustrated Wargamer is intended to be analogous to "power gamer," for instance, then the term Frustrated Wargamer does, indeed, sound to me like bullshit. And unnecessary, given, as you say, there's already words for it.

Does anyone think "Frustrated Wargamer" is intended to mean something beyond "power gamer" or "munchkin?"

Quote from: gleichmanA successful Director or Writer will not enter the rpg hobby in order to make rpgs more like movies or books. Rather they will enter the hobby to escape the limits of movies and books.

In my experience, writers - I don't know any directors who've given a go at game design - get into the roleplaying hobby long before they were professional writers, and then get asked to work on development due to their reputation as writers. I don't know a single one who's ever thought, "I wish to transcend the limits of writing, therefore I will design a roleplaying game!" So while I agree they don't do it to make roleplaying more like movies or books, I am not convinced they do it to escape the limitations of those things, particularly since their role in RPG development is restricted to writing and playtesting, and not to core development itself.

This is all apocryphal, of course: I can only speak for those writers I know or know of who have done development work for RPGs. None of them have ever spoken about this particular issue, and I suspect most of them got into it because they dig roleplaying.

Quote from: gleichmanA Frustrated Director/Writer on the other hand will be looking for the success that failed him in real life within the RPG. Thus he will attempt to make the RPG more like a movie or book.

I don't know any frustrated writers who have been able to do anything like professional RPG development, so I can't speak to this. The only people I know who come close - amateur writers, for instance - develop more-or-less traditional games, because they don't really even think of roleplaying and writing as being analogous at all: they just develop games the way the games they like have been developed, is all.

Quote from: Zachary The FirstAaron Alston has done pretty well for himself.

Quote from: gleichmanNo one has mention a writer or director attempting to make a game into writing or directing. Although Weber almost attempts to make his writing more like a game

Aaron Allston continued to do game design (Champions 5th) after starting to write novels, and he introduced "blue-booking" as a technique in Strike Force in 1988.  Blue-booking is writing out independent, non-combat stuff in a continuing record (originally the staple-bound "blue books" used for college exams) passed back and forth with the GM.  That is quite blatantly making the gaming more into writing.  

However, it seems to me that this is an empty rhetorical argument.  You don't actually respect the opinion of successful novelists with regard to game design, nor should you -- any more than someone should turn to Stephen King for movie directing advice.  If a successful novelist like Margaret Weis were to move back into more hands-on RPG design, it would prove nothing whether her design was more mainstream or more story-game in style.  If she were to make a story-game-style design, then she'd be judged a dabbler who doesn't really know about games - like Storm Constantine.  

Similarly, the argument that these indie RPGs would be more palatable under a different label seem like empty words.  I have seen no sign of any greater acceptance of games that don't use the label "RPG" such as Ben Lehman's Polaris.