I'm suspicious of a lot of the love for it, here and on other forums as well, but the Story-Games enthusiasm is so effusive, almost desperate sounding, that I am finding it hard to believe.  I mean suddenly because the tactical combat is much tighter and all the character classes get more opportunities to participate, it's the game they've all really been waiting for?

I don't know if its disingenuous enthusiasm or not but I've noticed that Story-Games has lately been even more susceptible to flavor of the month games as rpg.net.  Before 4e a great many threads there were about either Red Box Hack or In a Wicked Age.

Well, it is what it is, a super focused game. That's the real issues I think many of them have been wanting--a game that focuses VERY tightly to a very specific goal. (In this case a cooperative dungeoncrawl mini's game )

yeah, that's what they've been saying, but it sounds like an after-the-fact analysis to me.  I mean how super-focused is 4e?  Super-focused would be a board game.  What is the design goal?  As far as I can tell, it seems much more to have been fix the problems in 3.x and expand the demographic.

I don't think it's particularly suspicious that a forum that went collectively gaga over Memoir '44 when it was released, and then went gaga over the mere potential of BattleLore, well before release date, would find a lot to love in 4e.

Like this kind of talk, from Paul Czege, creator of My Life with Master:

QuoteComplexity that doesn't add more fun to a game than it kills is the fecund kudzu of game design. It's like it comes from nowhere as you're working on a game. You identify a problem, and fix it with a rule. Lather, rinse, repeat, and pretty soon you've got live kudzu and dead fun.

It seems to me the success of 4e depends on the answer to three questions:

1. Are people going to want to play it
2. Are people going to want to run it
3. Are people going to want to design for it

We played some of Keep on the Shadowfell yesterday. If the full game plays like Shadowfell, no doubt in my mind the answer to all three questions is yes. The great challenge of designing a face-to-face RPG is designing the social landscape. It's clear from just three combat encounters that Shadowfell nails it. Does the Dragonborn Paladin do her roar (or whatever the hell it is) if a wounded comrade will be caught in the effect? Do I use a Healing Surge now, or power through and hope my next attack takes the opponent down? The social concern of personally demonstrating effectiveness, playing for the good of the team, winning, losing, aiding each other, all collide and clash to produce meaningful personal and social rewards and consequences for fun gameplay. Shadowfell felt like a "just the good parts" version of my heaviest D&D phase (basically, when I was in high school). And there was no kudzu. Just fun. No small achievement.

Paul

This is in one of the more critical threads (which are starting to pop up there finally) on 4e, which had some very real, detailed and specific complaints as opposed to the vague, cheering analysis quoted above.

http://www.story-games.com/forums/comments.php?DiscussionID=6719&page=1#Item_0

More detailed rules and less GM fiat?

It's mainly due to small-mindedness on their part.  Anything that didn't fit into their philosophy (basically the majority of games on the market) was ill-conceived.  

They're pleased because d20 4e now falls into their philosophy.  That tabletop gaming is lesser for it is their blind spot.

See I just don't see how it falls into their philosophy.  I mean it leans closer towards it as Stuart points out at least in terms of minimizing GM fiat (in combat mostly), but that is just one (though significant) pillar of storygamers preferences.  Since when have they been into detailed, exception-based tactical combat, for instance?  Where is the narrative manipulation that is the real calling card of storygames?  None that I can see in 4e?

Quote from: walkerpSince when have they been into detailed, exception-based tactical combat, for instance?

They're into exceptionally focused games, regardless of the focus.

Quote from: walkerpWhere is the narrative manipulation that is the real calling card of storygames?

That's the calling card of a "narrative" focused game, not necessarily a focused game.  D&D 4e is focused on "gamism," and is fairly explicitly a "gamist" game.  They're hyped up because D&D is basically the "G" in GNS.  Now, if a game came out that made the "S," they'd be all over it, to some extent (although I think GURPS has that down cold).

Personally, I'm a little miffed that the "theory" crowd won D&D.

Quote from: walkerpSince when have they been into detailed, exception-based tactical combat, for instance?  Where is the narrative manipulation that is the real calling card of storygames?  None that I can see in 4e?

Like ... omyGOD! ... they're, like, totally saying that one kind of thing is fun, but then they turn around and say that something totally different can be great fun too!  What hypocrites!

:rolleyes:

Quote from: walkerpI'm suspicious of a lot of the love for it, here and on other forums as well, but the Story-Games enthusiasm is so effusive, almost desperate sounding, that I am finding it hard to believe.  I mean suddenly because the tactical combat is much tighter and all the character classes get more opportunities to participate, it's the game they've all really been waiting for?

"Suspicious"? :rolleyes:

Sounds like you don't know the place very well, or it's just you being flabbergasted yet again by the possibility someone might actually appreciate D&D.

Suspicious kind of implies to me that there is something going down behind the curtain. Some agenda or something. I'm a lot more suspicious of anything you have to say about d20 or D&D, since you've made it no secret that you take personal offense at the game and consider it a "fucking virus".

There's nothing going on, man. 4e is predictably the kind of game that would at least interest the guys over at Story-Games due to its focused nature. As Tony said: it's kind of weird that you would think people can only be interested in one single kind of game.

I don't think there's anything wrong with the Story-Games community, except when people like Ralph Mazza take cowardly, pathetic shots at TheRPGsite and there's almost a silent approval by the rest of their members. Aside from that, I think they're a cool bunch and they're just intrigued by D&D 4 at this point. Here's a less glowing thread on 4e over there, with interesting comments from a 4e playtester (post #8):

http://www.story-games.com/forums/comments.php?DiscussionID=6719&page=1

Quote from: Consonant DudeI don't think there's anything wrong with the Story-Games community, except when people like Ralph Mazza take cowardly, pathetic shots at TheRPGsite and there's almost a silent approval by the rest of their members.

Well, it's not like TheRPGSite's usual suspects have much love for Story Games or the whole indie RPG scene either...

On topic, I also noted that indie fans like, or at least have some grudging respect towards 4e. I partially ascribe this to the image that 4e is a less "incoherent" system by Forge terms, which is seen a plus; it gives lip service to some indie concepts, which is another plus; and it shoot D&Disms in the back of the head, which is seen as a MAJOR plus. Let's face it, 4e is a "progressive" game in that it gingerly slaughters "sacred cows"; that's worthy of some indie rep.

Not surprisingly, the reaction is a lot less positive among people who liked D&D for being D&D, but I guess people here already noticed this.

Dweebs like D&D! News at 11!

Quote from: MelanWell, it's not like TheRPGSite's usual suspects have much love for Story Games or the whole indie RPG scene either...

It would be hard not to notice some animosity directed at Story-Games or story games on TheRPGSite. That is true. But you'll also notice that there's a lot of divergence of opinions on this. Plus, anyone is free to register here.

I like Andy's style as far as moderation is concerned and I like the particular interests that drive the Story-Games community. However, when that insular nature (tight registration process, close community) is used to piss on me, I really feel like shoving my foot up someone's ass.