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Niche Protection, that embarassing itch and You

Started by HinterWelt, March 24, 2008, 04:06:09 PM

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David R

#30
March 24, 2008, 08:20:33 PM
What I dislike about niche protection is that it seems to encourage (in my games anyway) certain cliche behaviours in the characters created.

(Also what clash said)

Regards,
David R

Warthur

#31
March 24, 2008, 08:21:30 PM
Well, now we're talking about two different things: niche protection, and mechanically enforced niche protection. I think the former happens in all RPGs - even in games with absolutely no mechanical niche enforcement, you simply never get two PCs who are basically interchangable - players don't work that way. The latter is optional.
I am no longer posting here or reading this forum because Pundit has regularly claimed credit for keeping this community active. I am sick of his bullshit for reasons I explain here and I don\'t want to contribute to anything he considers to be a personal success on his part.

I recommend The RPG Pub as a friendly place where RPGs can be discussed and where the guiding principles of moderation are "be kind to each other" and "no politics". It\'s pretty chill so far.

gleichman

#32
March 24, 2008, 08:22:25 PM
Quote from: HinterWeltHowever, if you are a fan of niche protection, you likely will be looking to mechanics for all solutions and answers.

You are not so foolish as to believe this are you?
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flyingmice

#33
March 24, 2008, 08:24:08 PM
Quote from: WarthurWell, now we're talking about two different things: niche protection, and mechanically enforced niche protection. I think the former happens in all RPGs - even in games with absolutely no mechanical niche enforcement, you simply never get two PCs who are basically interchangable - players don't work that way. The latter is optional.

Exactly.

-clash
clash bowley * Flying Mice Games - an Imprint of Better Mousetrap Games
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gleichman

#34
March 24, 2008, 08:24:27 PM
Quote from: WarthurWell, now we're talking about two different things: niche protection, and mechanically enforced niche protection. I think the former happens in all RPGs - even in games with absolutely no mechanical niche enforcement, you simply never get two PCs who are basically interchangable - players don't work that way. The latter is optional.

It can happen, see my posts on HERO.

Many campaigns don't last long so this doesn't come up often. However most games without any niche protection will eventually run into niche conflict if they do as a result.
Whitehall Paraindustries- A blog about RPG Theory and Design

"The purpose of an open mind is to close it, on particular subjects. If you never do — you\'ve simply abdicated the responsibility to think." - William F. Buckley.

Caesar Slaad

#35
March 24, 2008, 08:44:26 PM
Quote from: WarthurWell, now we're talking about two different things: niche protection, and mechanically enforced niche protection. I think the former happens in all RPGs - even in games with absolutely no mechanical niche enforcement, you simply never get two PCs who are basically interchangable - players don't work that way.

I think that very often, players DO work that way, and the amount of interchangeable characters is largely a factor of how much breadth a single PC is afforded. Very often, games with a major advancement element and broad PCs see this in the late game.
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Blackleaf

#36
March 24, 2008, 09:05:44 PM
Quote from: WarthurTrue, but if all PC#2 provides at the end of the day is an extra pair of hands there's not much differentiating them from PC#1. If two players could swap their characters for a session and have pretty much the same experience in a game, something's wrong in my book.

You see this is a lot of fantasy literature:

Aragorn and Boromir are more or less interchangeable as far as "niche" goes.  Probably Gimli too.  The Hobbits... all about the same.

Same deal with most of the characters from Robin Hood.  And Harry Potter.  

But they're all different, interesting characters -- even if they don't have niche protection.

You can have a good games and stories with each player controlling a character highly specialized in one area that together make an effective party -- but you don't need that to have a good game either.

Claudius

#37
March 24, 2008, 09:31:39 PM
Quote from: WarthurWell, now we're talking about two different things: niche protection, and mechanically enforced niche protection. I think the former happens in all RPGs - even in games with absolutely no mechanical niche enforcement, you simply never get two PCs who are basically interchangable - players don't work that way. The latter is optional.
Yes, so it is.
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gleichman

#38
March 24, 2008, 09:31:42 PM
Quote from: StuartYou see this is a lot of fantasy literature:

Aragorn and Boromir are more or less interchangeable as far as "niche" goes.  Probably Gimli too.  The Hobbits... all about the same..

The Aragorn and Boromir example is complete BS. You're still focusing too much on combat and not considering the larger picture.

You may have a point with the Hobbits, but then again that was the point of the Hobbits- common joes and all.


I don't know about Robin Hood or Potter enough to comment.
Whitehall Paraindustries- A blog about RPG Theory and Design

"The purpose of an open mind is to close it, on particular subjects. If you never do — you\'ve simply abdicated the responsibility to think." - William F. Buckley.

James J Skach

#39
March 24, 2008, 09:53:10 PM
How much Harry Potter you read, Stuart?  You know I love you, but I'd call BS on that.

It's pretty clear from the final scene of the first book that there's an expectation of niche protection. It might not be niche protection in the way we think about it from, say, D&D.  But it's clear they are three very different kinds of wizard and  it's the combination of those difference that makes them strong.

It's a theme, a motif, whatever you smart literary guys call that stuff, throughout these books.
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HinterWelt

#40
March 24, 2008, 10:03:50 PM
Quote from: flyingmiceExactly.

-clash
I think he is getting it Clash. ;) I would go further and point out that even role protection should not be something expected. Redundancy in a group can be very good depending on the campaign (unless the thief ALWAYS makes his rolls). In long running campaigns of mine, you have people drifting in and out of roles, overlapping as needs change and new ones arise. Having strict niches...to me, is not as much fun as having the freedom to direct the growth of your character out of their niche or better yet, have none to start with.

YMMV,
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Blackleaf

#41
March 24, 2008, 11:00:11 PM
Quote from: gleichmanThe Aragorn and Boromir example is complete BS. You're still focusing too much on combat and not considering the larger picture.

In D&D (and similar RPGs) they'd both be "fighters".  They have the same niche.  I think we're making the same point -- you need to consider them beyond that.

blakkie

#42
March 24, 2008, 11:07:51 PM
Quote from: WarthurTrue, but if all PC#2 provides at the end of the day is an extra pair of hands there's not much differentiating them from PC#1. If two players could swap their characters for a session and have pretty much the same experience in a game, something's wrong in my book.
Yes, but what's wrong has dick-all to do with skill system. :)

To paraphrase Elliot's and my post, if I may be so bold: Your character in sum is much be more than what their the skills could do, it is what they choose to do.

EDIT: **  Outside some really questionable Alignment enforcement of a few D&D classes I suppose, although that isn't really niche protection that we are talking about. Or is it?
"Because honestly? I have no idea what you do. None." - Pierce Inverarity

Blackleaf

#43
March 24, 2008, 11:10:21 PM
Quote from: James J SkachHow much Harry Potter you read, Stuart?  You know I love you, but I'd call BS on that.

I've read the lot, and call BS on your BS.  Accio BS. :D

I think we're drifting into talking about different things here.  I'm not saying the characters are the same and have no differences -- I'm saying exactly the opposite!  You can have a lot of variety in a group of characters (like an adventuring party) without the characters having to be as widely separate in their niches as you see in some RPGs.

It's okay that the players don't each get a separate niche.

If you had to run Harry Potter with D&D, there would be a lot of Magic Users.  Maybe Hagrid is a fighter.  Maybe Doby and his friends are "Elves"

blakkie

#44
March 24, 2008, 11:14:38 PM
Quote from: StuartMaybe Hagrid is a fighter.
With a single multiclass level in Wizard. :)
"Because honestly? I have no idea what you do. None." - Pierce Inverarity
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