Quote from: Caesar SlaadI see my ponit has already been made.

AFAIAC, MM Mind Flayers are just "approximations with the core rules".

Man, those "approximations" are bad enough as presented... the XPsHB version is a holy terror, even though psi domination, unlike the magic version is a "concentration" duration power.

What bothers me with the psi rules as they stand in ed3 is that the question of "transparency to magic" becomes crucial. In old school AD&D, psionics were a relatively rare and restricted thing, so that it was no sweat to say : "it's not magic, so what concerns magic does not concern psionics"... meaning you could use them in anti magic shells, did not have to worry about magic resistance or dispel magic, and the like. In the new system, psionics look a lot like a new branch of magic, and it's much more delicate to tell if SR and PR are to double up as each other, or are wholly separate etc, etc...

If you rule for transparency, then you end up with relatively similar branches of magic, except that protection from one leaves you completely vulnerable to the other (and what will you do of outsiders who traditionally had both psionic combat abilities and spell like powers? will their SR double as PR or not? same question for mind flayers who were infamous for their magic resistance)... but in the other case, you just have magic with a slightly different flavor, but no real reason for a lot of its specificities.

Quote from: SvartalfMan, those "approximations" are bad enough as presented... the XPsHB version is a holy terror, even though psi domination, unlike the magic version is a "concentration" duration power.

Depends on how many points you put in it. Someone above summed up what you could really do with it.

QuoteWhat bothers me with the psi rules as they stand in ed3 is that the question of "transparency to magic" becomes crucial. In old school AD&D, psionics were a relatively rare and restricted thing, so that it was no sweat to say : "it's not magic, so what concerns magic does not concern psionics"... meaning you could use them in anti magic shells, did not have to worry about magic resistance or dispel magic, and the like. In the new system, psionics look a lot like a new branch of magic, and it's much more delicate to tell if SR and PR are to double up as each other, or are wholly separate etc, etc...

If you rule for transparency, then you end up with relatively similar branches of magic, except that protection from one leaves you completely vulnerable to the other (and what will you do of outsiders who traditionally had both psionic combat abilities and spell like powers? will their SR double as PR or not? same question for mind flayers who were infamous for their magic resistance)... but in the other case, you just have magic with a slightly different flavor, but no real reason for a lot of its specificities.

Eh, whatever. I think the nature of the abilities and the way they are expressed, psionic focus, etc., are more than enough to create a flavor difference. I think psionic/magic transparency is a good thing. In 2e, the glaring achilles heel created by the inherent "are different" stance made it a nightmare to balance. I created my own version of the transparency rules in 2e, and was glad to see 3e followed suit.

Quote from: SvartalfMan, those "approximations" are bad enough as presented... the XPsHB version is a holy terror, even though psi domination, unlike the magic version is a "concentration" duration power.

Just the addition of inertial armor (for +8 AC, manifested with 9 PP) makes them a lot more powerful. Then add in mind thrust (9d10 damage, Will negates), dimension door, and some other fun stuff. And as pointed out, spending a feat on Expanded Knowledge (grip of iron) gives them +7 to grapple checks, which is what they use to eat brains.

The only disadvantage in a combat situation with the psionic mind flayer is that you can't manifest psionic plane shift on an unwilling target. That's a pretty nasty attack for a "standard" mind flayer ("You annoy me. Have fun in the Plane of Fire").

Quote from: DackeThe only disadvantage in a combat situation with the psionic mind flayer is that you can't manifest psionic plane shift on an unwilling target. That's a pretty nasty attack for a "standard" mind flayer ("You annoy me. Have fun in the Plane of Fire").

Dominate (or even Charm) first :heh:

We lost a fighter to a mind flayer who did a sneak attack (Fucker was a 3rd level rogue in addition to being a mind flayer, the fucker) on the PC and scored a crit. The PC failed his reflex  AND his fortitude AND his massive damage check.

The GM ruled that the mind flayer had leaned out of the shadows, latched onto the top of his head, and sucked his brain right out. (Picture Dr. Zoidberg eating a guinea pig)

Oh well, we just stuffed his head full of rags and rocks and ressurected him.

Quote from: T-Willard(Picture Dr. Zoidberg eating a guinea pig)

Great.  Now I'll never again feel the terror I did when facing mind flayers. :brood: :heh:

Quote from: T-WillardWe lost a fighter to a mind flayer who did a sneak attack (Fucker was a 3rd level rogue in addition to being a mind flayer, the fucker) on the PC and scored a crit. The PC failed his reflex  AND his fortitude AND his massive damage check.

The GM ruled that the mind flayer had leaned out of the shadows, latched onto the top of his head, and sucked his brain right out. (Picture Dr. Zoidberg eating a guinea pig)

Oh well, we just stuffed his head full of rags and rocks and ressurected him.

I just don't understand how he did it... I mean, what the heck were the 2 saves for, and what could cause enough damage to necessitate a massive damage check? all the flayer had to do was hit with all tentacles, (quite possible in round one on a flatfooted target, or done while maintaining grapple in rd 2), and then maintain the grapple for one round to get the brains out... your description of the procedure does not make sense, or you should warn that your DM does not go "by the book".

Quote from: SvartalfI just don't understand how he did it... I mean, what the heck were the 2 saves for, and what could cause enough damage to necessitate a massive damage check? all the flayer had to do was hit with all tentacles, (quite possible in round one on a flatfooted target, or done while maintaining grapple in rd 2), and then maintain the grapple for one round to get the brains out... your description of the procedure does not make sense, or you should warn that your DM does not go "by the book".

The Fort save sounds like a possible poison was used?  But Ref save?  Against what, Sneak Attack?  WTF, O?

My MindSlayers Dominate.
The only real reason I let Psionics in my game at all is because MindSlayers are just too cool a monster to give up. If it weren't for them I'd evict the other psi-monsters (although I do love Gem Dragons and Intellect Devourers) and get rid of psionics altogether.