I'm talking vanilla Mind Flayers straight out of the Monster Manual.
The whole feel and backstory of Mind Flayers, whenever you run into them in D&D literature or video games, involves them mentally dominating people and forcing them to be slaves. A Mind Flayer doesn't need to do work - it has thralls to do it for them. They don't need to sully their tentacles with actual battle, they have thralls to go in and do it for them.
I would have assumed that a Mind Flayer would have Dominate Person as an at-will ability. In fact, I DID assume this when I was designing the adventure my PCs are on right now. The backstory involved a secret society bent on world domination from behind the scenes. This organization itself was to be under the control of a cabal of Mind Flayers, living a secret wing of their complex, and controlling everything through domination without the measly humans even being aware they are simple pawns.
But when it comes time to design this wing and run some genuine Mind Flayer battles, I look to their stats and see...
Charm Monster. Suggestion.
Both at-will. Both powerful. But not nearly as powerful as Dominate Person. What I was expecting to be a grand battle with several possible PC deaths (as the turned on each other) became much simpler, less deadly, and much less scary. This was the culmination of a campaign arc, and after the battle, I think the players are more thinking "This is what we've been afraid of for so long? These things are behind of all the plots we've foiled? What a load of crock!"
So what... they work using charm monster and suggestion rather than Dominate, in a way, I find that better because the thrall is cooperating to the wishes of the Master... to boot, they are natural telepaths, which does help with charm and suggestion....
Dominate is somewhat less open to revolt, but the control can't be fine tuned by letting the thrall know your exact wishes, or it takes full concentration, and it makes them zombie ish...
I've never seen the mind flayer thralls as mindless slaves, even if their will is subjugated to that of their master.
My vision of them has always been that a couple dozen Mind Flayers should be able to control hundreds or more slaves, and subject them to their every whim, eat a few here and there, and generally have a nice existence as Evil Overlords, not having to do any real work at all.
The vision you present is no more than a couple slaves per mind flayer, with temporary effects making them docile but not really controlled, who will eventually pass one of the many will saves they have to make every week to remain in servitude. A real pain to organize and maintain, and I'd see most Mind Flayers not even bothering. It would be easier just to hire some laborers and mercinaries and buy brains on the black market than to bother will all that enchantment rubbish.
Your vision sounds cool, why did you not roll with it and make the Mind Flayers more powerful?
Regards,
David R
And you'd have to add a bunch of levels of something to get dominate or an equivalent, which would
I probably wouldn't flesh it out, but the concept that I'd be operating with is a prestige class with a prereq of being a mind flayer. The run of the mill mind flayers would be as written, but the leaders would have a few levels and would have dominate and a few other special powers.
Savage Species had that great Mindflayer PrC that let you get the memories and skills of key foes. Regardless of their dominate power, you just HAVE to work that in as an ally of the PCs gets eaten and the memories are used against them.
I was running it kind of fast and loose, but I was hoping the Mind Flayers would be able to brain-suck at least one PC, to drive home how dangerous they really are. But when your party is mostly casters with high will saves (2 clerics, warmage, sorcerer, druid) it's hard to get good Mind Flayer pwnage going on. The two that were left (fighter, scout) were just really lucky with their saves. The druid almost got her brain sucked chasing a fleeing MF and grappling him while in Constrictor form... then she discovered they can use their tentacles in a grapple and managed to get away.
However, one of the players (sorcerer) couldn't make it, so I hand-waved her being taken in by the MFs early on in the session, and just sort of vanishing. She reappeared later during the big battle on the side of the MFs, but didn't change the tide of battle much (she's not optimized for combat). This didn't quite fit with the rest of the proper rules for the MFs, but I wanted some hint of their scary l33t mind control skills.
Oh well. Two of them got away at the end of the last battle, so I still have a chance.
Use the Expanded Psionics Handbook. Flayers start out as 8th level psions and additional levels stack. A 17th level Mind Flayer Psion should be more than scary enough.
9th level, not 8th. I don't have my XPH in front of me, but I think their default powers include psionic dominate (and if you use 9 PP on it, it lasts for a day). This still wouldn't let them have a horde of totally mind-controlled slaves, but it would let them dominate in a combat situation.
Oh, and if you want a psionic mind flayer that's an absolute terror in melee, add a level of monk (along with the elite array that comes with it). See the result here (http://www.nutkinland.com/forums/showthread.php?t=899). This guy killed off one of my PCs, and came VERY close to another.
Now, to totally derail the thread...
The first thought I had, seeing this thread and having ran the GDQ series as my first campaign as a DM, was
"Of course they can't dominate - they are the subs. The Doms are those leather-clad Drow Priestesses with their tentacle rods...."
Hmm, Drop the two less useful abilities in your campaign, and add in Dominate Person. This Hive of Mind Flayers are able to Dominate through some natural, or unnatural selection in it's past. I like being able to modify what the books have, to throw off my players a bit, and fit things to our game world. Just a thought.
GW
Quote from: JanosSavage Species had that great Mindflayer PrC that let you get the memories and skills of key foes. Regardless of their dominate power, you just HAVE to work that in as an ally of the PCs gets eaten and the memories are used against them.
I can't remember exactly, but I'm not sure how much of the memories they can access. I do know that it's a really annoying PrC when you have a player playing a Flayer, expecially when they munch the brain of a high level caster and have one spell slot each for 9 levels. (I still think it shouldn't work for cleric brains, but couldn't find errata, and I wasn't the DM at the time)
Quote from: Basara_549Now, to totally derail the thread...
The first thought I had, seeing this thread and having ran the GDQ series as my first campaign as a DM, was
"Of course they can't dominate - they are the subs. The Doms are those leather-clad Drow Priestesses with their tentacle rods...."
Man, this is Nutkin... we don't have DLDC here :p
What about the version of the Mind Flayer in the Psionics Handbook?
Quote from: Vermicious KnidUse the Expanded Psionics Handbook.
I see my ponit has already been made.
AFAIAC, MM Mind Flayers are just "approximations with the core rules".
Quote from: Caesar SlaadI see my ponit has already been made.
AFAIAC, MM Mind Flayers are just "approximations with the core rules".
Man, those "approximations" are bad enough as presented... the XPsHB version is a holy terror, even though psi domination, unlike the magic version is a "concentration" duration power.
What bothers me with the psi rules as they stand in ed3 is that the question of "transparency to magic" becomes crucial. In old school AD&D, psionics were a relatively rare and restricted thing, so that it was no sweat to say : "it's not magic, so what concerns magic does not concern psionics"... meaning you could use them in anti magic shells, did not have to worry about magic resistance or dispel magic, and the like. In the new system, psionics look a lot like a new branch of magic, and it's much more delicate to tell if SR and PR are to double up as each other, or are wholly separate etc, etc...
If you rule for transparency, then you end up with relatively similar branches of magic, except that protection from one leaves you completely vulnerable to the other (and what will you do of outsiders who traditionally had both psionic combat abilities and spell like powers? will their SR double as PR or not? same question for mind flayers who were infamous for their magic resistance)... but in the other case, you just have magic with a slightly different flavor, but no real reason for a lot of its specificities.
Quote from: SvartalfMan, those "approximations" are bad enough as presented... the XPsHB version is a holy terror, even though psi domination, unlike the magic version is a "concentration" duration power.
Depends on how many points you put in it. Someone above summed up what you could really do with it.
QuoteWhat bothers me with the psi rules as they stand in ed3 is that the question of "transparency to magic" becomes crucial. In old school AD&D, psionics were a relatively rare and restricted thing, so that it was no sweat to say : "it's not magic, so what concerns magic does not concern psionics"... meaning you could use them in anti magic shells, did not have to worry about magic resistance or dispel magic, and the like. In the new system, psionics look a lot like a new branch of magic, and it's much more delicate to tell if SR and PR are to double up as each other, or are wholly separate etc, etc...
If you rule for transparency, then you end up with relatively similar branches of magic, except that protection from one leaves you completely vulnerable to the other (and what will you do of outsiders who traditionally had both psionic combat abilities and spell like powers? will their SR double as PR or not? same question for mind flayers who were infamous for their magic resistance)... but in the other case, you just have magic with a slightly different flavor, but no real reason for a lot of its specificities.
Eh, whatever. I think the nature of the abilities and the way they are expressed, psionic focus, etc., are more than enough to create a flavor difference. I think psionic/magic transparency is a good thing. In 2e, the glaring achilles heel created by the inherent "are different" stance made it a nightmare to balance. I created my own version of the transparency rules in 2e, and was glad to see 3e followed suit.
Quote from: SvartalfMan, those "approximations" are bad enough as presented... the XPsHB version is a holy terror, even though psi domination, unlike the magic version is a "concentration" duration power.
Just the addition of
inertial armor (for +8 AC, manifested with 9 PP) makes them a lot more powerful. Then add in
mind thrust (9d10 damage, Will negates),
dimension door, and some other fun stuff. And as pointed out, spending a feat on Expanded Knowledge (
grip of iron) gives them +7 to grapple checks, which is what they use to eat brains.
The only disadvantage in a combat situation with the psionic mind flayer is that you can't manifest
psionic plane shift on an unwilling target. That's a pretty nasty attack for a "standard" mind flayer ("You annoy me. Have fun in the Plane of Fire").
Quote from: DackeThe only disadvantage in a combat situation with the psionic mind flayer is that you can't manifest psionic plane shift on an unwilling target. That's a pretty nasty attack for a "standard" mind flayer ("You annoy me. Have fun in the Plane of Fire").
Dominate (or even Charm) first :heh:
We lost a fighter to a mind flayer who did a sneak attack (Fucker was a 3rd level rogue in addition to being a mind flayer, the fucker) on the PC and scored a crit. The PC failed his reflex AND his fortitude AND his massive damage check.
The GM ruled that the mind flayer had leaned out of the shadows, latched onto the top of his head, and sucked his brain right out. (Picture Dr. Zoidberg eating a guinea pig)
Oh well, we just stuffed his head full of rags and rocks and ressurected him.
Quote from: T-Willard(Picture Dr. Zoidberg eating a guinea pig)
Great. Now I'll never again feel the terror I did when facing mind flayers. :brood: :heh:
Quote from: T-WillardWe lost a fighter to a mind flayer who did a sneak attack (Fucker was a 3rd level rogue in addition to being a mind flayer, the fucker) on the PC and scored a crit. The PC failed his reflex AND his fortitude AND his massive damage check.
The GM ruled that the mind flayer had leaned out of the shadows, latched onto the top of his head, and sucked his brain right out. (Picture Dr. Zoidberg eating a guinea pig)
Oh well, we just stuffed his head full of rags and rocks and ressurected him.
I just don't understand how he did it... I mean, what the heck were the 2 saves for, and what could cause enough damage to necessitate a massive damage check? all the flayer had to do was hit with all tentacles, (quite possible in round one on a flatfooted target, or done while maintaining grapple in rd 2), and then maintain the grapple for one round to get the brains out... your description of the procedure does not make sense, or you should warn that your DM does not go "by the book".
Quote from: SvartalfI just don't understand how he did it... I mean, what the heck were the 2 saves for, and what could cause enough damage to necessitate a massive damage check? all the flayer had to do was hit with all tentacles, (quite possible in round one on a flatfooted target, or done while maintaining grapple in rd 2), and then maintain the grapple for one round to get the brains out... your description of the procedure does not make sense, or you should warn that your DM does not go "by the book".
The Fort save sounds like a possible poison was used? But Ref save? Against what, Sneak Attack? WTF, O?
My MindSlayers Dominate.
The only real reason I let Psionics in my game at all is because MindSlayers are just too cool a monster to give up. If it weren't for them I'd evict the other psi-monsters (although I do love Gem Dragons and Intellect Devourers) and get rid of psionics altogether.