Interesting, unfortunately there's no reference for that specific paragraph, and efforts to google the information simply turn up the same text again and again. One forum did have a discussion where someone suggested that the switch to iron (or rather steel) was a reaction to the disruption of bronze trade routes by barbarians, rather than a cause of it, which is also an interesting hypothesis, but lacking references. (Not that archaeologists are much more qualified to speculate on the scanty evidence than Rob or anyone else, but it'd still be nice to see where the idea came from and if it has any champions in scholarship.)

Yeah, Elliot, I got the same sense - maybe why it stuck in my head. I did not intend to provide the info as any sort of research backed opinion, so I apologize if it came across that way.

Both are, however, interesting hypotheses, and, if nothing else, interesting for thinking about making them real histories in a fantasy world (which was why I was looking at Bronze Age anyway - for Dunfalcon).

Quote from: Elliot WilenWow, I'd never heard that theory of iron per se causing a reduction in trade. Is that your own hypothesis, Rob?

No one really knows what caused the dark ages at the end of the Late Bronze Age, other than there are reports of roving Sea Peoples who were sacking cities.  There are all sorts of theories from disease and famine to iron and changes in warfare.  The evidence in pretty sparse and there is a lot of speculation in that area.  Also bear in mind that bronze remained desirable and was in some way still superior to the rough iron of the period.  In fact, note that the hoplites of the Classical period wore bronze breastplates even though iron was available.

Quote from: KazZachary, I'd be interested in hearing how you plan to modify the equipment list in Epic to have a bronze age flavor.

Sure!  I want to answer in a little bit of detail as far as cost and defense/attack modification, so let me snag my notes and come back to it for that.  Short answer, a lot of metal weaponry goes bye-bye, or at least is much less commonplace.  We see spears, swords, and anything with a bronze tip becoming much rarer.  I envision "shield and spear" becoming a much more common basic array for a warrior, along with the short sword. The short sword would be the main sword you'd see, due to longer swords (like a longsword) not being reliable due to the limitations of bronze.

Leather armor becomes much more prevalent, along with bronze breastplates (and shin guards).  Obviously, wooden weapons are still very much in play. The bow & arrow does exist, but is seen more in hunting than in combat.  The sling is a widespread melee weapon.  

For a lot of costs and whatnot, I still need to flesh things out.  Fortunately, I have the ...And A 10 Foot Pole sourcebook from Iron Crown to help, when in doubt.  Trade will be in barter or rough metal ingots.

Quote from: John Morrow[...]

Yeah, what I was referring to was specifically the hypothesis that the replacement of bronze with iron directly contributed to a withering away of trade routes and long-distance communications, and perhaps indirectly because of this, the onset of the Aegean Dark Ages.

However the fact, which you point out, that bronze by no means ceased to be a desirable material, argues against this hypothesis. Aside from its continuing use in armor, I would be very surprised if bronze wasn't sought after as a material for luxury goods (urns, personal accessories, etc.) so that even if locals melted down all their bronze swords for recycling, there still ought to have been enough demand to support lively trade.

I have an archaeological survey by Peter S Wells entitled Villages, Towns and Cities, which investigates the changes that occurred during the transition to the Iron Age in Europe.  My memory is spotty (I haven't cracked the book for about 8 years or so), but I remember that there was quite a growth of trade centers and population concentration during the early Iron Age.

Wells didn't really put it down to a single cause (I think he subscribes to a multicausal view of historical development), but there definitely was a change in patterns of trade and commerce at the advent of the age.

Sorry I couldn't be more specific; I haven't read my archaeology books since college.  Might be interesting to pull the book out again and see what can be seen, though.

Quote from: Elliot WilenYeah, what I was referring to was specifically the hypothesis that the replacement of bronze with iron directly contributed to a withering away of trade routes and long-distance communications, and perhaps indirectly because of this, the onset of the Aegean Dark Ages.

My reason for mentioning that was that the reason why there are so many theories like that one about the end Late Bronze Age is because nobody really knows the answer, so you'll find books that suggest all sorts of causes that range from the plausible to the absurd, just like you do for things like the Kennedy assassination.  I would consider the theory about the copper and tin trade unlikely.  If the trade routes collapsed, I think it was more likely caused by the fall of the "great powers" of the period and a return to a more subsistence-oriented level of living (it requires organization and food surpluses to get that ~10% surplus of food necessary to have things like dedicated craftsmen, warriors, priests, merchants, etc.).  I can't see the copper and tin having gone out of demand for the reasons that I stated.

Quote from: KenHRI have an archaeological survey by Peter S Wells entitled Villages, Towns and Cities, which investigates the changes that occurred during the transition to the Iron Age in Europe.  My memory is spotty (I haven't cracked the book for about 8 years or so), but I remember that there was quite a growth of trade centers and population concentration during the early Iron Age.

The exact dating of "The Bronze Age" varies by region and the Aegean and Mediterranean Bronze Age aren't the same as the Northern European Bronze Age.  The Shang, for example, also had a Bronze Age with yet another mix of technology (the Shang bronzes castings can be pretty amazing).

Quote from: Zachary The FirstShort answer, a lot of metal weaponry goes bye-bye, or at least is much less commonplace.  We see spears, swords, and anything with a bronze tip becoming much rarer.

I think that depends on how you define rare and which Bronze Age you are talking about (Aegean, Hittite, Egyptian, Shang, Northern European, etc.).  There seem to be plenty of examples of bronze swords, spears, and axes out there and the Egyptians and Hittites, for example, equipped fairly large armies with them.  And, again, look at how much bronze was used by the Classical period hoplites, both in their armor and things like spearheads.  It is correct to point out that bronze was significantly more rare than iron (the tin being the bigger problem than the copper), but the Uluburun shipwreck (14th Century BC), for example, was carrying 10 tons of copper and another ton of tin (in the correct proportions to make bronze), and that was just one ship that didn't make it to its destination.  As this PDF points out, it "was carrying enough copper and tin to make 3,000 spearheads, 3,000 bronze swords, 300 bronze helmets, and 300 bronze corselets."  In other words, enough to equip an small army with bronze gear.  The later Cape Gelidonya shipwreck (around 1200BC) was also carrying copper and tin, though in smaller amounts.  Overland trade accounts from the Bronze Age talk about moving tons of tin around.

Quote from: Zachary The FirstI envision "shield and spear" becoming a much more common basic array for a warrior, along with the short sword. The short sword would be the main sword you'd see, due to longer swords (like a longsword) not being reliable due to the limitations of bronze.

You'll see spears and axes because they are cheaper to make and the wood doesn't bend like bronze does and is lighter than bronze.  Of course you'll see hafted weapons during later periods for the same reason even when the metal is iron.  But there were periods where longer thrusting swords made of bronze were made (often called "rapiers") and they've been found in the archaeological record.  So if you have a long thin sword, it's going to be a thrusting weapon.  And while bronze does bend, it can also be straightened back out without snapping it by applying some pressure from your foot (there are accounts of people doing that in battle) but parrying with bronze swords (or even iron swords that are not steel) is probably not a good idea.  

Quote from: Zachary The FirstLeather armor becomes much more prevalent, along with bronze breastplates (and shin guards).  Obviously, wooden weapons are still very much in play. The bow & arrow does exist, but is seen more in hunting than in combat.  The sling is a widespread melee weapon.

The composite bow was the primary (though very expensive) weapon of the chariot (used as a mobile archery platform) and was very much used in combat.  5,000 chariots were said to have been involved in the Battle of Kadesh in 1299 BC.  

A lot of archaeologists seem to like to downplay the homicide in ancient societies but lets not forget that even the Copper Age Oetzi had an arrow hole in his back and the even earlier Kennewick Man in the Americas had a Clovis point embedded in his pelvis.  So the line between "hunting weapon" and "combat weapon" was often not as sharp in ancient times as it has become in more recent times.  The same goes for a lot of "tools" like axes and hammers (there is a funny bit in Lawrence Keeley's book War Before Civilization where he talks about a tribe that carries axes described by anthropologists as "tools" everywhere they go, in case they have the sudden urge to chop down a tree).

You are correct that the sling was extensively used, but it was used into later periods, as well.  It just isn't as sexy or cinematic as the bow, so you rarely see it in military battles in movies.

Quote from: Zachary The FirstFor a lot of costs and whatnot, I still need to flesh things out.  Fortunately, I have the ...And A 10 Foot Pole sourcebook from Iron Crown to help, when in doubt.  Trade will be in barter or rough metal ingots.

Trade was often in metal weight if not barter and in some of the shipwrecks that have been found, there were weight stones for various systems of measure used by the various major cultures and great powers of the day.  For things like gold, they would sometimes create a coil of gold wire and then would cut off gold of the appropriate weight from the end as needed.  Some governments attempted price controls and, for example, in this Hittite law code (circa 1650-1500 BC) has several prices and exchange rates specified in it (see items 176, 178, 181-182, and 200).  And given that, "Four pounds [~160 shekels] of copper cost one half-shekel of silver; one tub of lard, one half-shekel of silver; two cheese one half-shekel of silver; a gown twelve half-shekels of silver; one blue woolen garment costs twenty half-shekels of silver; breeches cost ten half-shekels of silver." one should not overestimate the value of copper (you could get 4 pounds of coper for the cost of a tub of lard or two cheeses).  With tin, I found a 15:1 ratio between tin and silver in Assur (4 shekels of silver for a mina or 60 shekels of tin) so that was more expensive.  

Basically the Hittites set copper at a 320:1 ration to silver while in Assur, tin to silver was only 15:1.  Mixing apples and oranges (Hittites and Assur) and rounding off, that would make tin about 20 times more valuable than copper, but we could still get the tin needed to turn those 4 pounds of copper into 10:1 bronze (16 shekels) for about a shekel of silver or another two tubs of lard or, put another way, three sheep could get you enough copper and tin for over 4 pounds of bronze, more than you'd find in a Naue Type II bronze sword.  (There are a variety of proportions between tin and copper that might be used depending on how you want the alloy to behave.)

Fantastic stuff, John.  I can't thank you enough.  You've given me a lot to review.  Anything else you (and the rest in this thread) have, I'll gladly take a look at.  My thanks!

Fabulous stuff, John.

Thanks much!

- K

Quote from: Zachary The FirstFantastic stuff, John.  I can't thank you enough.  You've given me a lot to review.  Anything else you (and the rest in this thread) have, I'll gladly take a look at.  My thanks!

If you haven't already seen it, I highly recommend getting a copy of Michael Wood's In Search of the Trojan War on DVD.  While it's a bit dated (e.g., it doesn't mention the lower city of Troy that's recently been found) and one can quibble about accuracy in places, it presents a quite compelling take o the Aegean Bronze Age that led to my interest in the subject.  It's also shaped my view of what a Bronze Age RPG setting should look like.

In terms of inspirational artwork, I highly recommend Peter Connolly's children's books on the Aegean Bronze Age including The Ancient Greece of Odysseus (originally Legend of Odysseus) (the Google Books sample here shows, the artwork is not dumbed down or sanitized for children).  His Greek Legends : The Stories: The Evidence is also excellent if you can find it (it was Barnes & Noble only).  These books are not expensive and have some great information in them.

Some other book recommendations:

The Hittites by O. R Gurney (Excellent practical overview of Hittite society, the Mycenaean's neighbors to the East.)
Civilization Before Greece and Rome by H.W.F. Saggs (Good overview of various subjects from the Bronze Age.)
Life in the Ancient Near East, 3100- 332 B.C.E. by Daniel C. Snell (Outside of the Aegean but worth a look for daily life type material.)
Early Civilizations: Ancient Egypt in Context by Bruce G. Trigger (An excellent resource if you want to create your own ancient-style civilization because it looks at what they have in common.  He also wrote the much expanded Understanding Early Civilizations: A Comparative Study, but the thin paperback is a good overview.)
Lionel Casson wrote several books on travel and ships in the ancient world worth looking at.
The World of Odysseus by M.I. Finley (While I don't actually agree with the entire argument presented by this book, it makes some interesting points that are worth reading about the perspective of Bronze Age Greeks.)
The End of the Bronze Age: Changes in Warfare and the Catastrophe ca. 1200 B.C. by Robert Drews (This is one of those "end of the Bronze Age" books I was talking about.  Even if you don't buy his theories, the ideas he has about Bronze Age warfare make great fodder for a Bronze Age RPG.)

Online, Project Troia has some interesting material on Troy, including some virtual reconstructions.  If you want to go Egyptian tomb diving in the Bronze Age, The Theban Mapping Project is a must-visit site.  The Bronze Age reenactment sites have some interesting practical information.  Morris Silver has written some excellent but quite expensive books on ancient economies and economics.  He does address a few topics on a web site here that are worth reading.

If you tell me exactly what you are interested in, I might have some information on it.

I suppose I should add a recommendation for Between the Rivers by Harry Turtledove, a Bronze Age quasi-fantasy (the gods are real) that some people find a bit quirky but I found pretty interesting and worth mining for ideas.  The names and details also show that Turtledove has a pretty good grasp of the source material (e.g., I think he uses the terms wannax and lawagetas which are Mycenaean terms).

Quote from: KenHRI have an archaeological survey by Peter S Wells entitled Villages, Towns and Cities

Farms, Villages, and Cities--sitting on the book shelf right in front of where I'm typing. But I can't remember anything I read in it (if I read it, too many books on my shelf unread).

That's the one.  But as John pointed out (and I forgot...I should just keep my mouth shut more often), it's not speaking of the Bronze Age that Zachary seems to have in mind.