Quote from: David RTGA & Ian just to add another dimension to both your comments, how does religion/spirituality fit into the scheme of things. Surely there was a strong whiff of militancy to Picard's atheism and the cultural norms (most times the spiritual aspects) of the diverse range of aliens conflicted with Federation dogma. The question I'm asking is : Can God exist in a Utopia?

Hmmm, good question.  I am not the best person to ask about TNG in general, but I would note that a constant of *any* Star Trek series, even TOS, was the presence of god-like beings using the crew for sport.  TOS had it's Adonis, Trelane, Organians, Metrons, etc, and TNG had most famously "Q".  In our Star Trek gaming we used to joking refer to these kind of things as "GOB"s, for "Generic Omnipotent Being".  

I think that the presence of the multitude of such creatures, themselves starting as humanoids but who were transformed were over eons by technological or psychic development into into beings with powers which earlier humanity would have seen as god-like, would be hard on the survival of our current ideas of deity.  It might go far in explaining the very materialist outlook that is apparent in the Federation of TNG, at least.  Star Trek V has already been brought up by blakkie; how can you be sure that you are talking to God when there are so many impostors!:p


TGA

Quote from: droogThat, in fact, destroys the thesis completely. There are several more holes in it, but this is the one that kills it.

Liberal economic thought is predicated on scarcity. How, for the crudest example, can you make a profit selling dildoes when everybody can get the fanciest dildo they like from a replicator? Abundance on this scale means that society will look nothing at all like ours. One could in fact criticise Trek for not going far enough; for being unimaginative.

I agree completely.  The implications of near-magical technology like replicators, transporters, and holodecks were only given very cursory consideration, mostly because to full exploration would have made for stories that were even more boring or incomprehensible to the average viewer.


TGA

We have a glimpse into a Replicator economy right now because I've got one on my computer. It's called a DVD burner. What we've done is create laws to mirror the old model.


Further replicators are limited by energy. And design of the thing to replicate.

Also small valiables trade exists throughout the series'.

Quote from: blakkieWhat we've done is create laws to mirror the old model.

Yes, but those aren't working so well. We're in a transitional phase with that technology.

Quote from: droogYes, but those aren't working so well. We're in a transitional phase with that technology.

Not working well in which way?

The point is that a scarcity outstripping the technical one has been created by those with the hand on the helm. The requti Without this control


To be continued

Quote from: blakkieAlso small valiables trade exists throughout the series'.

Yep.  I recall that some people in TNG prefer "natural" food and booze, rather than the replicated stuff, but that most people felt that you can't tell the difference.  People being people there will always be a market for boutique items whose value lies in the fact that they are rare.

Also, I could see a market in items that were not legal to replicate, so you'd have to get your vices the old fashioned way.  Romulan ale, hand phasers for non-military personnel, drugs, etc.  Of course, there would also be a trade in other old fashioned vices.  Sex is undoubtedly still popular in the 24th Century.  And they never really did explore the sexual implications of holodeck technology...:eek:

It does bring up an interesting question.  In the 24th Century, given wide-scale use of replicators in the Federation, is there much need for interstellar trade?  What materials could such a society need from anywhere else?  Even trade with neighboring species without replicators would be a fairly useless exercise as they couldn't offer anything of value which couldn't just be replicated.  

On the plus side this might eliminate much incentive for territorial or economic aggression for the purpose of acquisition of scare resources, but it would open the way for the easy destruction of non replicator-based economies...just pick valuable commodities to flood the less developed economy with and watch it go down in chaos.  Such trade would have to be strictly controlled to essentially manage the development of these neighboring economies in order to prevent instability on the edges of the Federation sphere of influence.  Hell, this might now be one of the most important aspects of the enforcement of the Prime Directive.


TGA

Quote from: blakkieNot working well in which way?

Not working well in the way that everybody I know merrily shares, rips and burns files.

But you are quite right. It's an attempt to induce an artificial scarcity.

Quote from: It does bring up an interesting question.  In the 24th Century, given wide-scale use of replicators in the Federation, is there much need for interstellar trade?  What materials could such a society need from anywhere else?  Even trade with neighboring species without replicators would be a fairly useless exercise as they couldn't offer anything of value which couldn't just be replicated.  

TGA

You could always create a set of replicator laws/rules for your trek universe. Here are a few examples, I don't think any of these violate what has been seen on the various trek shows.

1. Replicators cannot create matter from nothing (there must be some input material)

2. Replicators cannot create heavier matter from lighter matter (so no hydrogen to iron)

3. replicators cannot change the base atomic state of elemental material only change one type of molecule to another (no gold from lead transformations, but you could load in some carbon/oxygen/hydrogen, or basic food pellets, and replicate out a steak dinner)

4. Complex mechanical systems cannot easily be replicated (you can replicate a 20th century knife or pistol, but not a phaser)

5. Living things cannot be replicated.

Quote from: The Good AssyrianAnd they never really did explore the sexual implications of holodeck technology...:eek:

Oh, really...?

Quote...but [replicator technology] would open the way for the easy destruction of non replicator-based economies...just pick valuable commodities to flood the less developed economy with and watch it go down in chaos.  Such trade would have to be strictly controlled to essentially manage the development of these neighboring economies in order to prevent instability on the edges of the Federation sphere of influence.  Hell, this might now be one of the most important aspects of the enforcement of the Prime Directive.

Ladies and gentlemen, I believe we're onto something.

!i!

Quote from: Ian AbsentiaOh, really...?

Well this certainly satisfied my "puddles" curiosity.....now I don't know if I should thank you or strap you down and force you to watch 24 hour news coverage of Britney Spears.....

QuoteLadies and gentlemen, I believe we're onto something.

Yes.

Regards,
David R

Um....Guys??


They were never "explicit" about but there were many hints that Quark rented out his holosuites for "holographic prostitution" so to speak. Paramount was too skittish to let them be obvious about it.


After all , little 3/4ths Klingon Alexander was conceived while his parents were "getting it on" in a holodeck. (Go back and look at the episode, after the commercial break Worf & K'Ehleyr are putting their clothes back on...)

In a DS9 episode, Jeffrey Combs played a visiting alien that asked Quark to make a perfect holo-simulation of Major Kira  so he could ....fulfill his fantasies.  (That one ended with Dax rewriting the computer program...but thats another story)


SO, such things DO happen in that universe.


- Ed C.

Quote1. Replicators cannot create matter from nothing (there must be some input material)

This is actually something that is discussed in the "official" technical info IIRC.  The replicator is only reassembling other matter into the final form, it still needs raw atoms to do it's business.

I do recall however that it was allowed to do your number 2 though, as that was how they simplified the amount of matter required for a starship to transport in order to operate the replicators, and it also meant you could pretty much power the thing by scooping up loose hydrogen provided usage levels weren't too high.  

I'm not sure though on that last bit, as IIRC, hyrdogen scoops were largely dismissed as useless in real space science because the amount of loose matter in space was far less than enough to practically power much of anything.  

Another limitation that was discussed occasionally in the series was that replicators were somewhat limited in the complexity of the molecular patterns and structures they could imitate, which was why replicator food never tasted quite like the real thing, and why you couldn't replicate latinum.

Okay just to add a little something to this discussion (and my campaign). How about some memorable lines from Trek

In space, all warriors are cold ones - General Chang (The Undiscovered Country)

Regards,
David R

Quote from: J ArcaneThis is actually something that is discussed in the "official" technical info IIRC.  The replicator is only reassembling other matter into the final form, it still needs raw atoms to do it's business.

.

Now that you mention it I bet there is a Trek tech manual somewhere that explains how replicator tech works in the trek universe (probably in nauseating detail). It would probably be easier to throw out the treknology explanation and make up your own rules rather than design an economic system that would work with replicators all over the place.

Quote from: droogNot working well in the way that everybody I know merrily shares, rips and burns files.

But you are quite right. It's an attempt to induce an artificial scarcity.

Not everyone. And nor without bumps. Sure there are some grey and blackmarket but billions are paid each year. The info economy is alive and well.