TheRPGSite

For the next year I'm going to be prepping my Star Trek : Paradise Lost campaign...and I need help, inspiration etc (Koltar & Technomancer, the time is now :D )

The players will play Maquis or rather may end up as Maquis some where in the beginning of the campaign. I (We) are not entirely sure if they should begin play as these guys or become them during the course of play.

I want to run this as a "historical" type game, meaning sticking relatively close to Trek canon. What I'm interested in is a freewheeling discussion on Trek lore, system recommendations, play experiences....almost anything and everything regarding Star Trek.

I want this discussion to be pretty open, as long as it's got to do with Trek  - although I'd really like some discussion on topics relevent to the kind of game I want to run - anything is welcomed.

Links are esp good :) Hopefully throughout the year folks will contribute to this thread if their interested.

Regards,
David R

So, a Maquis campaign - that puts you about 3 or 4 years before the Dominion War.

I'll have to dig through my old files.

 Used to know some good websites for that kind of thing.


- Ed C.

Decipher Star Trek is pure fucking awesome, and I highly encourage you pick up both books and give it a read.  Even if you decide you don't care for the system itself (I think it's great, but it maybe be too D20-ish for you), the books are so utterly chockful of idea seeds and tips and hints and advice that you literally can't pick up that book and not come away with some great ideas for a game.

I'll fire off the first volley in the Crunchy vs. Lite debate. For genre and character emulation, I'd choose a system that emphasises general character types, rather than detailed character definition.  If play is to be anything like how characters behave on the various shows, then they need broad, overarching abilities that can be applied to a variety of situations.  Risus springs to mind, particularly the Traveller adaptation, Travelling Lite (http://www.freelancetraveller.com/features/rules/convert/risustrav.html), but it may prove too flimsy.  Over the Edge or HeroQuest would work handily, too.

Hmm...for fodder, for a nice hook, you need some kind of dangling thread that was never resolved in canon that you players can resolve themselves (or at least witness in resolution).  My favorite dangling thread -- which was later resolved to a degree while I wasn't watching -- was Lt Thomas William Riker (http://memory-alpha.org/en/wiki/Thomas_Riker), the transporter-accident-duplicate of Commander William T. Riker.  I always thought that he should have been the captain of The Voyager, going from one shitty situation to another.  He eventually turned up as a Maquis symp and was shipped off to a Cardassian prison planet, presumed dead in one of the Dominion attacks.

Hey, then there's Nicolas Locarno (http://memory-alpha.org/en/wiki/Nicholas_Locarno), the hot-shot cadet who was drummed out of Starfleet Academy for being a lying prick.  The character Tom Paris from Voyager was based on him, and was even originally supposed to be Locarno (hell, they hired the same actor), but the writers went with a different back story.  Still, smart, talented, and with a huge chip on his shoulder, out there somewhere wandering the galaxy.  A guy with that much going for him can't just fade into the woodwork.

!i!

First Ian, very nice, the Riker clone reference. This is the kind of stuff I'm looking for.

J, tell me more about Decipher. With my gaming crew, d20-ish won't be a problem.

For space combat (and I know this is pretty old school) what I'm aiming for is the ship to ship battles of Wrath of Khan. You know some old school machismo injected into the next generation.

But I also want to retain the way how "characters behave on the various shows, then they need broad, overarching abilities that can be applied to a variety of situations"

Regards,
David R

Quote from: David RFirst Ian, very nice, the Riker clone reference.

You're welcome.  I noticed, looking through the Memory Alpha website entry on Tom Riker, his final disposition was never resolved in canon.  He was shipped off to the Cardassian prison planet for being a Maquis operative, and Kira promised to come back for him later, but the whole Dominion War thing got in the way.  As far as canon goes, he got aboard a Cardassian transport destined for the prison, but from that point forward, he's fair game.

!i!

QuoteJ, tell me more about Decipher. With my gaming crew, d20-ish won't be a problem.

Mechanically, like I said, it's pretty reminiscent of D20, but with a 2d6 roll, and generally smaller numbers involved thanks to the scale.  There's a vaguely class-like system for character design as well, but it's very flexible, almost closer to the old Alternity classes, and pretty much all your bridge crew and ship roles, as well as non-Starfleet roles are covered quite well.

The thing that I really loved about it though, is exactly what I mentioned above.  The writing is fantastic, and there's a lot of advice and ideas in the book.  It was the first time I ever really felt like I "got" how to run Star Trek, because everytime I picked up that book and started reading, it was like ideas were just pouring off the page, into my brain.  I had to keep a notebook with me when I read it through so I wouldn't forget any of them.

They did a great job of capturing Trek, and all in one set of corebooks too.

When the DMZ was created, both Federation and Cardassian settlers had to leave their homes. Maybe a encounters with such Cardassian settlers would be a nice... mirror for the Maquis.

And I can totally see Ferengi weapon traders selling to the Maquis.


There is one unresolved plot from early DS9 that intrigues me: Skrreea (http://www.memory-alpha.org/en/wiki/Skrreea)
Maybe a rebellious Skrreean youth seeks adventure with the Maquis. (They were depicted like that.)

Quote from: 1of3When the DMZ was created, both Federation and Cardassian settlers had to leave their homes. Maybe a encounters with such Cardassian settlers would be a nice... mirror for the Maquis.

I had totally forgotten about this. Yes, this would add some nuance to the proceedings :)

J, one more question. How's does Decipher handle space combat ?

Regards,
David R

Quote from: 1of3When the DMZ was created, both Federation and Cardassian settlers had to leave their homes.

And, now that you mention it, this was the backstory to Chakotay, wasn't it?

!i!

Quick Off-topic Thread:
My FLGS has Prime Directive (Task Force Games). How is the game?

Back on thread:
I was always partial to the old Star Trek Tactical Combat Simulator. It was lighter than Star Fleet battles and a heck of a lot of fun.

Hi!
  I feel like the running gag of all the Maquis storylines is the idea that there  is no "Right answer." From our introduction to the Maquis during the forced relocation episode to the whole reason there is Maquis on the crew of the voyager...
  I'd say every dilemma you come up with for the players that you make sure it is a damned if you do damned if you don't type situation...

Study the dialogue and mini-speeches of Cmdr. Eddington. He was was one of the best representatives of the Maquis.

Heck - so was Sisko's girlfriend for a little while.


- Ed C.

Quote from: enelsonQuick Off-topic Thread:
My FLGS has Prime Directive (Task Force Games). How is the game?

Yeah, I'm interested too.

QuoteBack on thread:
I was always partial to the old Star Trek Tactical Combat Simulator. It was lighter than Star Fleet battles and a heck of a lot of fun.

Okay is this like a boardgame or something ? I don't mind if it is, switching between the rpg system and this for the space battles. I did something similar for a campaign I ran last year.

Regards,
David R

Here's another dangling thread: Ro Laren (http://memory-alpha.org/en/wiki/Ro_Laren).  Joined up with the Maquis as a double-agent for the Federation, but turned sympathetic with the cause.  Changed sides for real, but no episode ever resolved what she did thereafter.  Had a bit of a suppressed thing for Will Riker, which might be interesting if she ever met Tom Riker.

I always liked Ro.

!i!

Hmm...one possible idea is (if we decide to start the campaign with the players playing Maquis) is to have them take on the roles of some of these "dangling" characters.

And the site you keep linking to, Ian....it's like a pc/npc generator :D

Regards,
David R

Quote from: David ROkay is this like a boardgame or something ? ...

It's a light tactical wargame. Here's a brief blurb about it:
http://www.boardgamegeek.com/game/3040 (http://www.boardgamegeek.com/game/3040).

It is a lot of fun and quick paced. Captured the early Star Trek quite well.

Quote from: David RAnd the site you keep linking to, Ian....it's like a pc/npc generator :D

Yeah. Memory Alpha (http://memory-alpha.org/en/wiki/Portal:Main) really is an impressive site.  I'm particularly impressed that, for a fan-driven Star Trek site, they've managed to screen out the over-enthusiastic gushiness that oozes from  other fan sites.  Very professional from what I've seen.

I need to start digging up some dangling situations for you instead of just characters, don't I?  Ah, well, in the mean time, there's Sito Jaxa (http://memory-alpha.org/en/wiki/Sito_Jaxa), another one of Nick Locarno's disgraced cadet Nova Squadron.  Also another Bajoran cutie, she eventually volunteered for a covert mission to Cardassia and was assumed killed during the mission.  However, there's always the possibility that she was actually taken prisoner and is stewing in a Cardassian prison -- possibly with Tom Riker!  Okay, so she's not dangling as well as the others, but she caught my eye.

!i!

The Prime Directive game (any incarnation) is taken from ADB's Starfleet Battles universe.  If you are really set on getting it, I'd take a good, long gander at either the GURPS version or the d20 version (and don't hold your breath for the d6 version anytime soon).  

While I have the ADB version of Prime Directive, I never played it so I cannot comment on how it works, sorry.

Quote from: DangerThe Prime Directive game (any incarnation) is taken from ADB's Starfleet Battles universe.  If you are really set on getting it, I'd take a good, long gander at either the GURPS version or the d20 version (and don't hold your breath for the d6 version anytime soon).  

While I have the ADB version of Prime Directive, I never played it so I cannot comment on how it works, sorry.

I did some playtests of it way back when, talking about the 1993 ADB dice-pool version. Here's my description from an aged page talking about different versions of Star Trek rules:

QuoteThis is an original game published in 1993, also based on the original series, albeit indirectly. It is licensed by Paramount to use certain Original Series terms. However, the original rights came from before Paramount owned Star Trek, based on the "Star Fleet Technical Manual" of the original series which had an independent copyright. This really wants to be a 20th-century Special Ops marine game, and rather seriously distorts the background to get there. It focusses on elite "Prime Teams" which get beamed down to deal with specific problems.

Like FASA's effort, the background takes the original series and adds to it massively. It is unique in taking a fair amount from the animated series. For example, Niven wrote an animated episode which featured the Kzinti from his "Known Space" books -- thus these are in the PD universe as uneasy allies with the Federation.

Even moreso than the original Trek, the original PD emphasizes antiquated technology. The original series at least had phasers as a potent weapon which invariably downed the target with a single shot, barring only extreme circumstances like high-energy shields or silicon-based lifeforms. In PD they are only marginally better than modern bullets for damage. Also even moreso than the series, it tries to avoid the consequences of having a starship and transporters being on hand for the away team. Whereas the series would usually have a problem for the whole ship to deal with, PD tries to make the ship irrelevant so that the away team had to deal with their objective like an independent ops team.

It uses a dice-pool systems, taking the highest die out of a set of d6's where a 6 indicates an open-ended re-roll. Each task has a distinct "tri-code" indicating the three target numbers needed for minimum, marginal, and complete success.

I wouldn't recommend the old game, though the more recent GURPS version might well be worth checking out.

Quote from: enelson[The Star Trek: Starship Tactical Simulator is] a light tactical wargame. Here's a brief blurb about it:
http://www.boardgamegeek.com/game/3040 (http://www.boardgamegeek.com/game/3040).

It is a lot of fun and quick paced. Captured the early Star Trek quite well.

Holy cats, yes!  Now I remember.  A friend of mine owned that game.  It was a wealth of information on the 80s-film-era Star Trek universe, as were the supplements. And it was fun to play, too.

!i!

(P.S. Here's a website that supports the game (http://www.tacticalstarshipcombat.com/FASA/STSTCS%20Home%20Page.htm) with lots of usable material, even if you go with another game.  Check out "The Fleets", including Cardassian designs.)

Quote from: Ian AbsentiaHoly cats, yes!  Now I remember.  A friend of mine owned that game.  It was a wealth of information on the 80s-film-era Star Trek universe, as were the supplements. And it was fun to play, too.

!i!

It was also included in the Deluxe 2nd Edition boxed set from the mid-eighties.

I always wanted to do a Maquis campaign, but most of the gamers around here have little to no interest in gaming in the Star Trek universe.

Based on the various source materials, what do yu think are the themes of Star Trek ?

Regards,
David R

Quote from: David RBased on the various source materials, what do yu think are the themes of Star Trek ?

Regards,
David R

HOPE


Exploration


Doing the unexpected when you most need to....



Difficult choices that have to be made....


Honoring one's friends and comrades in any kind of ongoing fight or struggle....


Striving to be better than you are at the moment, and discovering that potential....


- Ed C.

Koltar nailed it pretty well.  In a nutshell, hope and exploration -- we're going to make better of ourselves and there's always something new to discover just beyond the horizon.

Later shows got much darker, focusing on the notion that, while your head may be in the clouds, your feet are still in the mud.  In other words, in spite of high, ambitious ideals, there's always someone who hasn't risen to that level of enlightenment, who may want to drag you down.  The Maquis plot line had the whiff of that, with the Federation's best intentions running afoul of the people on the ground who just wanted to be left to their own destiny.

!i!

Yeah - but most of the older Maquis members were still raised in that Federation culture.
What the writers were going for was that maybe the people back home on Earth were losing touch with those on the frontier and how their decisions affect them.

Many times those stories played out like a TREK version of : "I didn't leave my party. my party left me. "

In this case : They weren't betraying the Federation, they felt the Federation had betrayed them.

...and a team up of Ro Laren and "Thomas" Riker would definitely be interesting.

 By-the-way, they showed several Klingons as secondary characters that were certainly part of the Maquis.  (you think I didn't notice that when those seasons were 'live'?)


- Ed C.

Quote from: KoltarWhat the writers were going for was that maybe the people back home on Earth were losing touch with those on the frontier and how their decisions affect them.

Many times those stories played out like a TREK version of : "I didn't leave my party. my party left me. "

In this case : They weren't betraying the Federation, they felt the Federation had betrayed them.

This is exactly what interests me (and my players)

Regards,
David R

Quote from: KoltarWhat the writers were going for was that maybe the people back home on Earth were losing touch with those on the frontier and how their decisions affect them.

And, of course, we all realise what the Bajoran/Cardassian conflict was an analogy for, right?  The clever bit in the writing, though, was that it wasn't always plain who were the Israelis and who were the Palestinians.

!i!

Quote from: Ian AbsentiaAnd, of course, we all realise what the Bajoran/Cardassian conflict was an analogy for, right?  The clever bit in the writing, though, was that it wasn't always plain who were the Israelis and who were the Palestinians.

!i!

That 'messed up' a friend of mine at the time who would overly identify real world events with fictional groups on the show.

 I tried to warn him about that.
 The best-written ones made you think a litle ...but couldn't or shouldn't be overly identified with a real world group.

The first season of DEEP SPACE NINE , he got it in his head that the Bajorans were supposed to be the Palestinians. (big mistake or assumption). Then the episode "Duet" aired , which played out like a TREK version of "The Man in the Glass Booth" with Kira as a parallel to a camp survivor.  He then said "Now, I don't get it, I thought the Bajorans were the Palestinians, now they're supposed to be Jews?" . I tried to explain to him that they were supposed to be similiar to ANY disadvantaged group that was now finding their footing again - throughout history - Kurds, Jews, Palestinians....etc.

During the second season of DS9 , he burst out with: "Vedek Bareil  can't do that - he'll be breaking their vows of celibacy!" .  NOBODY said they were catholic priests, they're just clergy of a fictional alien religion - which apparently is alright with their clerics having romances from time to time. Even my friend's wife had to tell him not to identofy them so closely with catholics.


- Ed C.



(By the way this friend was an Episcopal Reverend...as far as I know, still is one. )

Cardassians are Chinese. Bajor is Tibet. Come on, everything Cardassian is yellow-ish.

Quote from: David RBased on the various source materials, what do yu think are the themes of Star Trek ?

The paramount of the individual. In Star Treks it's not that sometimes the needs of the few outweigh the needs of the many, but it's the general rule.

Just look at the TNG crew. All of them had somewhat difficult youths and families. (Tasha is an Orphan, Data has no family at all, Picard struggles with his brother, Riker with his father...) Family in TNG is trouble.

The protagonists have emerged from these pasts and now live on a giant star ship with giant quarters and empty corridors.


(I phrased one chapter of the "The Philosophy of Star Trek" here. The one I found most impressive. It's a thin book but I forgot the author's name.)

I am going to watch DS9, but how extreme did the acts of the Maquis get ? Also is there any material on how their cells are organized ?

Regards,
David R

The wikipedia article on The Maquis:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Maquis_%28Star_Trek%29

TWO classic quotes from DS9 related to them.....

Said by Captain Benjamin Sisko:

Quote" The trouble is Earth. On Earth there is no poverty, no crime, no war. You look out the window of Starfleet Headquarters and you see paradise. It's easy to be a saint in paradise, but the Maquis do not live in paradise. Out there in the demilitarized zone all the problems haven't been solved yet. Out there, there are no saints, just people - angry, scared, determined people who are going to do whatever it takes to survive, whether it meets with Federation approval or not."

This was said by Lt. Michael Eddington after he was revealed to be a Maquis operative:

Quote"Why is the Federation so obsessed with the Maquis? We've never harmed you. And yet we're constantly arrested and charged with terrorism. Starships chase us through the Badlands and our supporters are harassed and ridiculed. Why? Because we've left the Federation, and that's the one thing you can't accept. Nobody leaves paradise. Everyone should want to be in the Federation...You know, in some ways you're even worse than the Borg. At least they tell you about their plans for assimilation. You're more insidious. You assimilate people and they don't even know it."

- Ed C.

Didn't the Maquis resort to out and out terrorism (or the flipside comment, "fighting their oppresors the best way they could")?  

I (want to) recall something about some sort of anit-Cardassian biological bomb in one episode, but I'm not certain.

"The Maquis don't live in Paradise"

"Nobody leaves Paradise"

Koltar, I'm impressed that you would choose these quotes. It's actually what got me thinking of this campaign in the first place.

Regards,
David R

Quote from: DangerDidn't the Maquis resort to out and out terrorism (or the flipside comment, "fighting their oppresors the best way they could")?  

I (want to) recall something about some sort of anit-Cardassian biological bomb in one episode, but I'm not certain.

Actually Captain Sisko did something that bordered on much more barbaric - he poisoned the atmosphere of a planet just to get Eddington to surrender to him.

That is the episode I think that had all the comparisons to Les Miserables.


- Ed C.

Ah, that must be the one.

Thanks for the correction, sir.

Which leads me to state that Sisko was the baddest mofo ever to grace a Starfleet uniform; they had better be glad he was on their side as he seemed to be the biggest "big picture/means justify the ends" fellow ever produced by the Academy (in addition to that bald dude from Lost (I think) who slapped his pecker against some shocked lookin' Cardassians' face in a TNG episode, metaphorically speaking)

Man, I miss DS9.  I miss Star Trek.  Sniff.

Sisko does seem like a real badass. I wonder though how cautious should I be about pushing the murky button in case this ceases to be Star Trek and turns into something else? My players are more than willing to engage in a little escalation....

Regards,
David R

Quote from: David RSisko does seem like a real badass. I wonder though how cautious should I be about pushing the murky button in case this ceases to be Star Trek and turns into something else? My players are more than willing to engage in a little escalation....

Regards,
David R

Have a secret Starfleet contact that helps them out from time to time on the sly - who is an NPC.
 That might slow down "escalation" - they don't want to jeopardize their benefactor, contact and ally...


 ..or possibly a politician in the Federation Council is a patron or supportor of some kind for the player group ? But needs to stay secretive about some things...

- Ed C.

This is one of the coolest threads I've seen in a while. :D

+10k geek points for sure.

Makes me want to play ST game now.

Koltar that's part of a possible solution but what interests me is something more deeper. Mind you, I'm not hip to things Star Trek so I may be placing too much emphasis on what I perceive as essential Trekness :D

For instance, not only are "characters" in this thread a possibility, but some of my players have expressed interest in playing "traditional" Star Fleet officers....I suppose they mean these characters still hold to the credo (dogma ?) of StarFleet.

Since I don't know how wide ranging this campaign is, how do Marquis officers interpret the Prime Directive ? I mean suppose the possibility of equiping non-warp cultures with weapons to fight a proxy war, props up?

And one of my players whose a huge Brad Douriff fan wants to base a character on a Brad's mad Betazoid from Voyager. And you know this leads to darker paths....

I guess I want to keep the theme of exploration in the background....but is this necessarily a wise move, considering the subject matter?

Regards,
David R

Quote from: David RSisko does seem like a real badass. I wonder though how cautious should I be about pushing the murky button in case this ceases to be Star Trek and turns into something else? My players are more than willing to engage in a little escalation....

Regards,
David R

Well, as someone who thinks that DS9 was basically the best Trek ever got, I can't see much problem with getting plenty murky.

Quote from: McrowMakes me want to play ST game now.

Makes me want to rent Deep Space 9 for the next couple of weeks. :)

Quote from: David RFor instance, not only are "characters" in this thread a possibility, but some of my players have expressed interest in playing "traditional" Star Fleet officers....I suppose they mean these characters still hold to the credo (dogma ?) of StarFleet.

Now, here we're venturing into the themes from Voyager, or at least one of the themes they intended to focus on at the beginning.  A real straight-and-narrow Federation crew gets tossed together with a far less conventional Maquis crew, and part of what we were supposed to be watching -- and we know this because Captain Janeway said so quite explicitly every episode for the first season -- was the struggle for the Star Fleet crew to maintain their lofty principles when the carpet had been pulled from underneath them.  Meanwhile, the free-booting Maquis crew was supposed to prove more flexible under unconventional circumstances.  This all got muddled as the show struggled to find its niche, but that might be a theme that lends itself better to a roleplaying game.

!i!

I'd guess that the willingness of a former Starfleet/current Marquis officer to follow the Prime Directive depends wholly upon the strength of their convictions and belief in at least some of the framework of their upbringing.

Saying that, I firmly beieve that idealism lasts only as long as you can forget/forgive the blood, mud, shit and dead buddies you've had to wade through.  Once reality starts nibbling at your pie-eyed enthusiasm, its amazing the re-evaluation process which occurs.

Now, I'd say that canny Marquis leaders would be more than happy to use the Prime Directive driven Feds to take care or investigate a situation in which it appears that the PD is being dicked with.  

For example, dropping hints and intel on Cardassians arming a pre-spaceflight culture with Starfleet Intelligence.  Why, the Feds would almost certainly be compelled to retaliate in some way, wouldn't they?  No blood on your hands, and you get a problem taken care of to boot.

Quote from: DangerNow, I'd say that canny Marquis leaders would be more than happy to use the Prime Directive driven Feds to take care or investigate a situation in which it appears that the PD is being dicked with.  

For example, dropping hints and intel on Cardassians arming a pre-spaceflight culture with Starfleet Intelligence.  Why, the Feds would almost certainly be compelled to retaliate in some way, wouldn't they?  No blood on your hands, and you get a problem taken care of to boot.

Oh! Nicely played, sir. Very nicely played!

It's almost too tempting to imagine the Maquis as scruffily-bearded Palestinians or Central American rebels, when, in fact, the cause of the Maquis served as a focal point for all sorts of strange bedfellows.  You'll have some who are trying to play it by the book (i.e. Federation policy) whenever possible, and you'll have others who have resorted to outright terrorism and piracy (possibly just as an excuse to do what they were going to do anyway).  And between those two extremes, you'll have plenty of others all along the spectrum, pressing agendas grand in scope or of an entirely personal nature.

It seems that, in order to keep the "Star Trek" flavor in a game, it'd be vitally important to maintain some sort of connection with the Federation and/or Starfleet.  The simplest approach is probably for most characters to be former Starfleet, still with a lot of dedication and identification with the duties and ideals, but at philosophical odds with the implementation of the mission.  The campaign would explore the constant erosion of circumstances upon their ideals in a way that Voyager lost touch with.

!i!

...This was one of the reasins I started to like the DS9 show better than the rest . Midway through the series the charsacters had to start dealing with the choices they had made earlier, it was the show of touugh choices and consequences.


- Ed C.

I'd like to also say that this is one of the best threads I've seen in a while.  It has made me think harder about some of my own Star Trek prejudices and preferences.  I am an unabashed TOS fan, mostly because in my opinion TNG made the universe too sanitary, leaving too little room to explore the darker corners.  That is why I liked DS9, and consider it the best of Star Trek from TNG onwards.

In any event, one thought comes to mind in regards to the discussion of the Maquis.  One of the core elements of Star Trek is exploration (whether it be physical exploration of space or inward exploration of ourselves), but a conventional Maquis-centered campaign would probably be somewhat limited in the physical "boldly go" kind of exploration.  But what if you set the campaign AFTER the Dominion War.  The scattered remnants of the defeated Maquis have to go somewhere, right?  Some may choose to go back to Federation space, but they would be treated with suspicion and contempt by the very people who the Maquis considered to have betrayed them, if not improisoned.

Given that choice, perhaps a large group of Maquis refugees would choose to strike out on their own to find a new home in (relatively) uncharted space?  Sort of Star Trek meets Battlestar Galactica, actually.  And perhaps a number of sympathetic Starfleet officers decide to help them or even go with them, themselves disgusted at the Federation's perceived betrayal of their ideals.

With this setup you would get exploration divorced from much of the later Star trek metaplot, and potential conflict between the ideals of the Star Fleet folks and the Maquis when they are faced with decisions on the harsh frontier.  And, of course, it is highly unlikely that any suitable worlds are not claimed by *somebody*, which would lead to a whole host of dilemmas...


TGA

hey, here's a question for the DS9 afficionados:  If I want to rent the DVDs for DS9, and want to focus just on the Maquis storyline, which seasons should I get?

It's something I could probably figure out myself with a little research, but I'd like to take a little more "boots-on-the-ground" approach, and get the information from those who know.  I know that the Maquis cropped up here and there throughout the run of the show, but I know that certain seasons really focused on the issue.

!i!

Hi!
  Anyone think about throwing Section 31 into the mix. What is their take on the Maquis. They both favor ruthlessly pursuing their agendas. What happens when their agendas are in synch, what happens when their agendas are in opposition?

Someone answer Ian...I'd like to know too :D

And what is Section 31 ?

Regards,
David R

Ian, David - gimme an hour or two and I'll have your answer.

 I'm sort of out of the "geeky OCD" side of fandom....but I think my old notes from that time might be hidden around here somewhere.


- Ed C.

Section 31 (http://memory-alpha.org/en/wiki/Section_31).  We were never here.

!i!

Section 31....creates a whole new set of problems...goody, goody.

Regards,
David R

There are a number of ways you could interpret Section 31, but my initial reaction was to liken them to Delta Green -- an outlaw cabal within the ranks of the Federation, operating in isolated cells, believing itself to work in the Federation's best interests.  

Here's a question I couldn't answer from the Memory Alpha article:  Were the members of Section 31 always human?  In other words, were they a secret organisation working for the Federation, or for humanity/Earth specifically?

!i!

The Second Season of Star Trek : Deep Space Nine has the two-part episode "The Maquis" in the back half of the season. The special guest star is Bernie Casey as a starfleet friend of Sisko's.

Here is a haphazard , somewhat hurried list of relevent episodes:

ST: TNG "Journey's End" STARDATE 47751.2 (October 2, 2370)
 This is the story where the Picard is orcered to evacuate colonists from the Dorvan V colony. The colinists are shown to be culkturally like native Anericans/Indians. Many fans assumed this might be the colony where Chakotay is from.

    The Maquis, a small, but growing number of Federation citizens living near the Cardassian border who have banded together in self-defense against the Cardassians, begins to take a more militant posture. They acquire ships and weapons in increasing numbers, worrying both Federation and Cardassian authorities. The Maquis are resentful of Federation concessions to the Cardassians made in the rrecent border treaty, and feel the only way to protect themselves is to take matters into their own hands.

October 4, 2370 = Two Federation colonists in Ropal City are stoned by a Cardassian mob. Reports suggest local Cardassian authorities may have encouraged the incident.

ST : DS9 "The Maquis, Part I" 47767.7 (October 7, 2370)
Sisko uncovers a Federation terrorist group whose actions could start another war with the Cardassians.
(This is also the first public announcement of the Maquis name in the Federation - and the first time that they take credit for various activities)

ST : DS9 "The Maquis, Part II"  47808.7 (October 22, 2370)
Sisko and Gul Dukat join forces in an effort to avert a war between the Cardassians and a group of Federation colonists led by Sisko's old friend.


- Ed C.

Quote from: Ian AbsentiaHere's a question I couldn't answer from the Memory Alpha article:  Were the members of Section 31 always human?  In other words, were they a secret organisation working for the Federation, or for humanity/Earth specifically?

Good question. My players (although only two of them would be what one would consider Trekkers) have always disliked the humancentric nature of the Federation. Having a dodgy covert org which either works for humanity/Earth or works for the Federation (ideals) proper makes for some interesting conflicts.

Regards,
David R

If you haven't seen the episodes - just assume ALL My stuff might have *SPOILERS* - okay?

December 4, 2370 : Cardassian colonists living near the Demilitarized Zone attack and destroy a Juhrya freighter. The Cardassian government deplores the incident, but it is difficult to control because of similar attacks by Federation civilians who call themselves the MAQUIS. Both Cardassian and Federation authorities fear the situation may deteriorate into large-scale armed hostilities.

ST:TNG "Preemptive Strike"   SD 47941.7 (December 10, 2370)
Admiral Neycheyev assigns Leiutenant Ro Laren to a covert mission to infiltrate the Maquis near the Demilitarized Zone.

(Really GOOD episode for seeing behind-the-scenesw workings of a possible Maquis Cell)

Quote from: Ian AbsentiaSection 31 (http://memory-alpha.org/en/wiki/Section_31).  We were never here.

!i!

And it would make perfect sense for such an organization to use the Maquis as a proxy...

You can easily draw a parallel to the current situation in Pakistan, where significant elements of the ISI supported the Taliban, and likely turn a blind eye to the activities of militants in Waziristan and Kashmir.


TGA

Quote from: The Good AssyrianWith this setup you would get exploration divorced from much of the later Star trek metaplot, and potential conflict between the ideals of the Star Fleet folks and the Maquis when they are faced with decisions on the harsh frontier.  And, of course, it is highly unlikely that any suitable worlds are not claimed by *somebody*, which would lead to a whole host of dilemmas...

I considered something like this - the Biblical symbolism is a huge draw, for me :D But I guess everyone wants to remain close to the heat of the conflict between the Maquis and Federation/Cardassians. I think the general feeling of the group is not to break "new ground" but rather mess about with existing material.

Regards,
David R

Quote from: Ian AbsentiaHere's a question I couldn't answer from the Memory Alpha article:  Were the members of Section 31 always human?  In other words, were they a secret organisation working for the Federation, or for humanity/Earth specifically?

A very interesting question!  One can reasonably assume that the nature of intelligence organizations, particularly one that is 200 years old, means that small cabals of specific elites (I am thinking about the domination of Yale men in the early CIA as depicted in "The Good Shepherd") can have huge influence.  In the case of Starfleet Intelligence, it is pretty clear that Earth/humanity was a dominant factor in the early Federation and Starfleet, in particular.  How else to explain the extreme predominance of Earth origin names for starships (other than the obvious explanation that all the writers were from Earth...:D)?

By the era of TNG, we see a major shift with a lot more non-humans represented in the Federation and in Starfleet.  I could launch into a geeky in-universe explanation involving the Preservers, Hodgkin's Law of Parallel Planetary Development, and the density of non-human species as the Federation expanded its borders in the 24th Century, but I digress...The point is that non-humans obviously have a lot more presence in the Federation of the 24th Century, and some in the "old boys club" probably don't like that very much.


TGA

Quote from: David RI considered something like this - the Biblical symbolism is a huge draw, for me :D But I guess everyone wants to remain close to the heat of the conflict between the Maquis and Federation/Cardassians. I think the general feeling of the group is not to break "new ground" but rather mess about with existing material.

Regards,
David R

That's cool.  I was just throwing it out there because I have been tinkering with a Star Trek game based on the premise of "Voyager Done Right", and this thread fired up some ideas that I might make use of.  As I mentioned, the 24th Century stuff for Star Trek mostly leaves me cold, so this is an interesting possibility that I never even considered.

The original idea that I was bouncing around used the setting of the 2290s (roughly the period of Star Trek VI), and the PCs would be the crew of a Constellation class starship specially put together to explore the other side of the first (mostly) stable natural wormhole discovered.  The other side of the wormhole dumps out tens of thousands of light years from Federation space (perhaps deep in the Beta Quadrant).  The dilemma would be that there is a very good likelihood that the wormhole will eventually collapse, stranding the ship on the far side with a very long journey home.  I had envisioned it being  heavy on the "strange new worlds" stuff and diplomacy.  

I had also considered the idea that the wormhole dumps out 10,000 light years away AND 100 years in the future, making the mission more of an intelligence gathering affair, with Starfleet naturally interested in finding out what the galaxy looks like in the future.  I even came up with a wacky plan for slingshotting the ship back to the 23rd Century after the mission was completed that only a covert ops planner who didn't actually have to go on the mission would love, but time travel in RPGs makes my head hurt, so I wasn't sure if I was going to go with that angle in the end.

Anyways, this thread has given me some more directions to look into.  Thanks, all!


TGA

That's a sweet idea TGA. This reminds me, I have to have a time travel/future episode in the campaign :D

Regards,
David R

Quote from: David RThat's a sweet idea TGA. This reminds me, I have to have a time travel/future episode in the campaign :D

Regards,
David R

Definitely!  And don't forget about these guys (http://memory-alpha.org/en/wiki/Department_of_Temporal_Investigations).  ;)


TGA

Quote from: The Good AssyrianThe point is that non-humans obviously have a lot more presence in the Federation of the 24th Century, and some in the "old boys club" probably don't like that very much.

Of course, it's not because of "bigotry" or any such out-dated, pre-WWIII foolishness.  It's because non-humans simply don't bear humanity's best interests at heart, and someone needs to insure that those same interests are promoted in a pluralistic society such as the Federation.  Freedom and equality can't be maintained through inaction.

!i!

Quote from: Ian AbsentiaOf course, it's not because of "bigotry" or any such out-dated, pre-WWIII foolishness.  It's because non-humans simply don't bear humanity's best interests at heart, and someone needs to insure that those same interests are promoted in a pluralistic society such as the Federation.  Freedom and equality can't be maintained through inaction.

Interesting, I could be reading you wrong Ian - and I'm not to hip to the various Trek cultures - but are you implying that non-human cultures would come into conflict with the concepts of freedom and equality ?

Regards,
David R

I was being wry and, frankly, making a bit of a jab at contemporary politics, which is totally a "Trek" thing to do.  I was referring to how some members of majority populations, having accepted minority populations as equals, begin to worry that perhaps the monorities aren't treating them as equals.  In the terms that TGA was using, when the "old boys' club" surrenders their position of pre-eminence, they feel the need to defend adamantly what they have left from all perceived threats, proven or suspected.  As I suggested previously, they don't see this as bigotry, it's just common sense to watch out for your own.

Hey, and as long as I've raised the ugly spectre of bigotry in Star Trek, is there any room to discuss the rampant miscegenation depicted on the show? ;)

!i!

[Edit: It's probably worth noting that what I've been going on about above is entirely speculative, and not, to my knowledge, reflected in Star Trek canon.]

Quote from: Ian Absentia[Edit: It's probably worth noting that what I've been going on about above is entirely speculative, and not, to my knowledge, reflected in Star Trek canon.]

Don't worry about canon. A good idea/concept trumps canon anytime during the week and twice on Sundays ;)

Regards,
David R

Quote from: Ian AbsentiaI was being wry and, frankly, making a bit of a jab at contemporary politics, which is totally a "Trek" thing to do.  I was referring to how some members of majority populations, having accepted minority populations as equals, begin to worry that perhaps the monorities aren't treating them as equals.  In the terms that TGA was using, when the "old boys' club" surrenders their position of pre-eminence, they feel the need to defend adamantly what they have left from all perceived threats, proven or suspected.  As I suggested previously, they don't see this as bigotry, it's just common sense to watch out for your own.

All outstanding points, Ian!  I might also be tempted to expand the "old boys' club" of the 24th Century to include the other "Founders", like the Vulcans, Andorians, etc.  These are species that have worked hand in hand for more than two centuries, so they may have understandings and connections with one another that they don't share with the latecomers.  

We see a lot of Vulcan influence in TOS, and there are non-canon (and some canon with Enterprise) indications that the Andorians are real power players in the early Federation, with even an entire group of Starfleet vessels manned exclusively by Andorian crews.  In the end, intelligence organizations being what they are, they tend to recruit people that the founders of the organization share a bond of trust and identity with, be that through shared experience such as university, service in a particular military unit, or through tribal and family connections.  Over time, this would naturally become less prevalent as the organization expands, but there would still be a tendency for these elites to form formal or informal groups within the organization.  

And while we are on the topic of the Vulcans, is it just me or does anyone else think that they have the capacity to be manipulative, murderous bastards?  We see some of this idea developed in Voyager and especially in Enterprise, but you get hints of it even in TOS.  In "Amok Time", for example we see an ugly side of Vulcan logic; not the primeval combat, but rather the cold manipulations of T'Pring that led to it.  And that whole "Vulcans never lie" jive always struck me as good PR for people who like to set themselves up as the peacemakers.  There has to be an element within the Vulcan devotion to cold logic that would make them particularly adept spooks.  And remember that "The needs of the many outweigh the needs of the few, or the one", can be an excellent justification for some extremely morally delicate acts...;)

Quote from: Ian AbsentiaHey, and as long as I've raised the ugly spectre of bigotry in Star Trek, is there any room to discuss the rampant miscegenation depicted on the show? ;)

It was always good enough for Kirk!:D

Quote from: Ian Absentia[Edit: It's probably worth noting that what I've been going on about above is entirely speculative, and not, to my knowledge, reflected in Star Trek canon.]

I agree with David on this one.  Canon for me is just the jumping off point!



TGA

Quote from: The Good AssyrianAnd while we are on the topic of the Vulcans, is it just me or does anyone else think that they have the capacity to be manipulative, murderous bastards?

Yes. There has been some talk amongst my crew about how to portray Vulcans. Spock was relatively benign but Tuvok on the other at times was barely able to hide his contempt for humanity. I don't have to tell you which way my players are leaning :raise:

Regards,
David R

LUG had an interesting bit about the Fed. Merchant Marine in their Federation sourcebook (The Price of Freedom) which I always enjoyed.

The dichotomy of the lives of the people inside the "paradise" of the Federation and those living on the fringe outside of Eden, as viewed from the deck of a transport moving between the two "worlds," might be utilized in some fashion to shift the PCs toward a more Marquis friendly stance....

Eh, I had something here, but lost it.  Anyway, you get my drift.

Dang drain bamage.

Quote from: The Good AssyrianI might also be tempted to expand the "old boys' club" of the 24th Century to include the other "Founders", like the Vulcans, Andorians, etc.  These are species that have worked hand in hand for more than two centuries, so they may have understandings and connections with one another that they don't share with the latecomers.

You know, I was thinking about this just this morning.  I didn't follow Enterprise even through its first full season, but one thing that I liked was how the Earthlings were being treated like upstart children by the Vulcans, yet, by the end of the series Earth's humans were the ones to found the Federation.  It was humanity's very brashness and vibrancy that allowed them to quickly eclipse and take the point from long-established space-faring societies.  Now, in Star Trek this seems to have worked out well for humanity, but for a darker take on how such a thing might go down, read David Brin's various Uplift novels.  The older, established societies don't always take kindly to the upstarts, no matter how "right" they may be.

QuoteAnd while we are on the topic of the Vulcans, is it just me or does anyone else think that they have the capacity to be manipulative, murderous bastards?

My favorite feature of "Mirror, Mirror" is that, while the rest of Kirk's crew aboard the Enterprise are evil, murderous bastards in the "mirror" universe, Spock is exactly the same.  That says a lot for Vulcan logic (or at least Spock as a person).  Your point about T'Pring as seen in "Amok Time" is well taken.

Regarding interstellar miscegenation:

QuoteIt was always good enough for Kirk!:D

Now, to be clear, Kirk would boff anything that resembled a human female.  Riker took this a little further and would boff anything that said it was female, humanoid or not.  This is all totally fine, and even kind of hot.  What I'm referring to, though, is the apparent ease of fertility between humanoid species in Star Trek.  Hand-waving some obvious sloppiness (like compatibility between iron-based human blood and copper-based Vulcan blood in a fellow like Spock), this actually goes a long way toward supporting a theory I've had for a while: All "humanoids" seen in Star Trek are, in fact, the same species.  It's like wolves and dogs -- they can freely interbreed, and so should really be considered the same species.  This theory is somewhat supported by the TNG episode "The Chase (http://memory-alpha.org/en/wiki/The_Chase)", wherein members of the Federation, the Klingons, and the Romulans arrive at a world with a recorded message from a race of ancient humanoids that explains that they purposefully seeded various worlds with their genetic matrix to give rise to other humanoid species over the eons.

!i!

Quote from: David RYes. There has been some talk amongst my crew about how to portray Vulcans. Spock was relatively benign but Tuvok on the other at times was barely able to hide his contempt for humanity.

Spock had the benefit (from a human perspective) of being brought up by a human mother.  He didn't cherish the baser side of human nature, but he understood it and accepted it.  Tuvok, on the other hand, was a pure Vulcan through and through (except when they did that horrid episode wherein, as a result of a transporter accident, he was combined with that weasely bastard Neelix).  Perhaps Tuvok is more representative of Vulcan attitudes toward their human compatriates.  His attitude certainly seems to be more in line with that expressed by the Vulcans depicted in Enterprise.

By the way, my only regret with the portrayal of Tuvok was the depiction of a one-for-one correspondence between human and Vulcan racial ethnicities.  Make no mistake, I thought Tim Russ did a fantastic job at portraying the character, but I was always uncomfortable with the notion that Vulcan racial ethnicities could be broken down into negroid and caucasian, and not, say, pale green and dark green.  On the up-side, though, perhaps this only strengthens my theory that humans and Vulcans (and virtually everyone else) are, in fact, the same species.

!i!

Not to throw fuel on the fire ;-) But I always found this essay compelling.

http://www.stardestroyer.net/Empire/Essays/Trek-Marxism.html

It is about how the Federation is a communist nation.

Quote from: estarNot to throw fuel on the fire ;-) But I always found this essay compelling.

http://www.stardestroyer.net/Empire/Essays/Trek-Marxism.html

It is about how the Federation is a communist nation.

I like and agree with it.

And, by fiat of the writers, it's communism that works (though the author of the article disagrees).

!i!

Interesting link estar. I have sent it to my players :)

Communism that works. Interesting.

Let's stay with this for a moment. A couple of questions for those interested...

1. What is the function and implication of the Prime Directive if one agrees that the Federation is a communist system?

2. I've always gotten a "something is rotten in the state of Denmark" vibe from the later series of Trek , which I assumed was a reaction against the Utopian nature of the Federation.

Regards,
David R

Quote from: David R1. What is the function and implication of the Prime Directive if one agrees that the Federation is a communist system?

At face value, it's for the benefit of the developing culture, so that their development is not unduly polluted by external influences.  On a practical level, though, it's to keep them from rocking the boat of the utopian, communist society.  Tabs can be kept on the interdicted planet until they are deemed amenable to the social and economic overtures of Federation Communism.

Quote2. I've always gotten a "something is rotten in the state of Denmark" vibe from the later series of Trek , which I assumed was a reaction against the Utopian nature of the Federation.

Clearly the Federation would benefit from a continued application of the Prime Directive where you and your malcontent kind are concerned.

!i!

Quote from: Ian AbsentiaClearly the Federation would benefit from a continued application of the Prime Directive where you and your malcontent kind are concerned.

I'm worried. My players keep on quietly muttering, "we can do sooo much damage to this setting"....:eek:

Regards,
David R

Another thing. One of the ideas being discussed is the possibility of the bridge crew (the pcs) of a vessel being Maquis and  covertly furthering the objectives of the "Struggle" within Star Fleet. One of the issues that came up was the use of Holodecks. I kinda of like this idea and was wondering if it would be too cheesy to have some "holodeck" adventures....probably based on Arthurian mythology. Would this detract from the game?

Regards,
David R

Quote from: David RI'm worried. My players keep on quietly muttering, "we can do sooo much damage to this setting"....:eek:

Now, now.  Everyone needs to agree to play nicely.  In all seriousness, everyone has to agree to play "Star Trek".

QuoteOne of the issues that came up was the use of Holodecks. I kinda of like this idea and was wondering if it would be too cheesy to have some "holodeck" adventures....probably based on Arthurian mythology. Would this detract from the game?

No more than it would if your group decided to take a week off from the Star Trek campaign to play, say, D&D or Call of Cthulhu.  In other words, if your group ever wants to take a session or two off to play another game, do so, but you can do so under the guise of a holodeck adventure.

!i!

Quote from: David R2. I've always gotten a "something is rotten in the state of Denmark" vibe from the later series of Trek , which I assumed was a reaction against the Utopian nature of the Federation.

Great link, estar!  I think I've seen that argument before, but not in such a detailed form.  My only critique of his thesis is the fact that given the TNG assumption that literally anything (with the apparent exception of Latinum) can be created through replicators, and with it the death of scarcity, I am not sure that any current understanding of economics would apply.

As for the question of the "rotten vibe" of the TNG Federation, I totally got it too.  In my opinion, one of the problems with TNG was Rodenberry's overtly utopian vision.  It made the series, particularly the first season or two, boring as fuck.  There wasn't enough for the protagonists to overcome within themselves.  

I think that in a Maquis-centered campaign I would focus on that theme.  In shades of Aldous Huxley, one could argue the average citizen of the Federation has been lulled into lazy mediocrity because they do not have to struggle for anything.  All of their needs are trivially provided by almost magical technology.  Those few who felt restless in this confining comfort, those possessing the need for exploration of themselves as well as the universe, would naturally gravitate to careers in Starfleet.  Out on the frontier, faced with adversity and the exhilaration of overcoming it and learning something about one's self, many of these Starfleet officers would naturally come to feel a separation from the rest of the inhabitants of the Federation who sit in utopian luxury on the core worlds and are blissfully unaware of the sacrifices made to protect them.  This would be the genesis of the support for the Maquis within Starfleet's ranks.  Many in Starfleet would simply have more in common with the Maquis than the citizens of the Federation.

One of the defining conflicts of TOS was the struggle with one's nature to become better.  I am particularly reminded of my favorite episode of any of the Star Trek series, the very first pilot, "The Cage".  Perhaps in the fate of the Talosians, trapped in others' dream worlds because their technology robbed them of their ability to challenge themselves, we can see the eventual fate of the entire Federation.


TGA

Quote from: The Good AssyrianThose few who felt restless in this confining comfort, those possessing the need for exploration of themselves as well as the universe, would naturally gravitate to careers in Starfleet.

Ah, but couple with this the oft-stated assertion that Starfleet accepts only "the best of the best".  There are still lots of people out there with the need to do something, but just don't make the cut of the 98th percentile.  What do they do with their lives?  It reminds me a bit of the movie Gattaca, where ambition is hampered by statistical non-compliance.  Yeah, sure, we may be assured that Starfleet is able to pick out the most promising people, looking even beyond simple test scores, but are they really that good at examining a person's nature and potential?  You have people like B'Elanna Torres, who was supposedly an outstanding candidate, but just couldn't stand the way Starfleet operated.  And where did she end up?

So, yeah, there's a huge expanse of space and human nature to investigate, where those twin ideals of Hope and Exploration still hold sway, but where Utopianism simply didn't satisfy the spirit.

!i!

TGA & Ian just to add another dimension to both your comments, how does religion/spirituality fit into the scheme of things. Surely there was a strong whiff of militancy to Picard's atheism and the cultural norms (most times the spiritual aspects) of the diverse range of aliens conflicted with Federation dogma. The question I'm asking is : Can God exist in a Utopia?

Regards,
David R

Quote from: David RI am going to watch DS9, but how extreme did the acts of the Maquis get ?

Flattening a planet extreme? Or at least attempted. I seem to recall a Voyager episode where the crew had to deal with the fallout from that. A Cardassian matter/anti-matter interstellar version of a cruise missle, capable of putting a moon-sized hole in a planet, had been sent on an attack run by Torres but ended up getting wormed into the D quadrant and targeted a similar, but obviously not intended, planet.

Quote from: David RThe question I'm asking is : Can God exist in a Utopia?

If He has a scientific basis, yes.

I kid a bit, if only because that's how religious matters were often treated in TNG.  Unless, of course, it was the religious beliefs of an emerging alien culture -- there was an awful lot of cultural relativism and noble savagery going on in that show.  Anyway, I'm not sure there is an essential need for spirituality if all temporal needs are provided for.  After all, doesn't the exploration of the supernatural stem from the desire to account for the inexplicable and the absent from our physical environment?

!i!

Quote from: The Good AssyrianMy only critique of his thesis is the fact that given the TNG assumption that literally anything (with the apparent exception of Latinum) can be created through replicators, and with it the death of scarcity, I am not sure that any current understanding of economics would apply.

That, in fact, destroys the thesis completely. There are several more holes in it, but this is the one that kills it.

Liberal economic thought is predicated on scarcity. How, for the crudest example, can you make a profit selling dildoes when everybody can get the fanciest dildo they like from a replicator? Abundance on this scale means that society will look nothing at all like ours. One could in fact criticise Trek for not going far enough; for being unimaginative.

Quote from: Koltar...This was one of the reasins I started to like the DS9 show better than the rest . Midway through the series the charsacters had to start dealing with the choices they had made earlier, it was the show of touugh choices and consequences.

Very natural for a series that stuck to one spot. The other ST ships followed, although it could come back to them on a larger scale, were largely freed of build-up from their decisions because they were always on the move. Dump and run.

The same is going to hold true for games (and not just ST based ones). If you want this accumulation of conciquences for past decisions then one good way to do that is make it "stationary" instead of "Star Treking, Star Treking across the universe, always going forward because [you] cannot find reverse".

Quote from: Ian AbsentiaIf He has a scientific basis, yes.

That outlook was best demonstrated by ST V:The Final Frontier.

Quote from: droogAbundance on this scale means that society will look nothing at all like ours. One could in fact criticise Trek for not going far enough; for being unimaginative.

Interesting. What would a functional Marxist Trek society look like?

Personally I always thought the dominance of Federation "influence" was based on superior technological know how rather than any philosophical/ideological appeal.

Regards,
David R

Quote from: David RInteresting. What would a functional Marxist Trek society look like?

Short answer: I can't tell you, because it hasn't happened yet.

Long answer: There's no such thing as a Marxist society. 'Marxism' is not an ideology or a socioeconomic structure, it's a method of enquiry building on certain assumptions about economics. Marx's work was to analyse capitalist society, not to dream utopias.

But I'll stop jacking your thread.

Quote from: Ian AbsentiaAh, but couple with this the oft-stated assertion that Starfleet accepts only "the best of the best".  There are still lots of people out there with the need to do something, but just don't make the cut of the 98th percentile.  What do they do with their lives?  It reminds me a bit of the movie Gattaca, where ambition is hampered by statistical non-compliance...So, yeah, there's a huge expanse of space and human nature to investigate, where those twin ideals of Hope and Exploration still hold sway, but where Utopianism simply didn't satisfy the spirit.

An outstanding point, Ian.  One consideration (one which is given short shrift in most incarnations of Trek) is the presence of large numbers of enlisted Starfleet personnel.  We only see a handful of them on screen, and only DS9's Chief O'Brien gets billing as a main character.  There are presumably hundreds of NCOs and enlisted grade members of the fleet for each officer.  We know that the standards for entering Starfleet Academy are hellishly rigorous (fuck even Picard failed the first try at entry, and wunderkind Wesley Crusher failed twice), but maybe the standards for just enlisting in Starfleet are significantly easier.  Perhaps a lot of those not content with their lot simply enlist in the fleet for a while and either settle down once their wanderlust has been satisfied, or having caught a whiff of the excitement either continue their career in the ranks or settle on a frontier colony or sign up on a transport.

Which brings up another point.  The article that estar linked to brought up an interesting question.  Do citizens of the Federation have access to privately owned warp-capable spacecraft?  We know that in the TOS era it was somewhat common, with Cyrano Jones (http://memory-alpha.org/en/wiki/Cyrano_Jones) and Harry Mudd (http://memory-alpha.org/en/wiki/Harry_Mudd) each owning their own small spacecraft.  As for the TNG era, it is less clear.  On one hand, the death of material scarcity with the use of replicators means that small craft used for small-scale trading in high value commodities would not be necessary nor economically feasible.  On the other hand, the presumed ease of manufacture of such craft, and the presence of numerous small warp-capable craft like runabouts, would argue that they were common.  Perhaps we should split the difference and assume that such craft are available for ownership by private citizens, but are mostly the realm of extremely dedicated amateur enthusiasts, like travel nuts, archaeologists, naturalists, etc.

Finally, another clue to where these disaffected Federation citizens go is the presence of a large number of unauthorized colonies that Starfleet apparently has to deal with.  I am not an avid watched of TNG, but I think I can recall several episodes in which Federation "squatters" were a central element of the plot, usually dealing with the need of the Enterprise to evacuate them due to danger either natural or political.  The Maquis movement is just an extension of this.  Perhaps there is a larger trend of people choosing to leave the Federation, a small trickle to be sure, but still an embarrassment to such an enlightened civilization.


TGA

Quote from: David RTGA & Ian just to add another dimension to both your comments, how does religion/spirituality fit into the scheme of things. Surely there was a strong whiff of militancy to Picard's atheism and the cultural norms (most times the spiritual aspects) of the diverse range of aliens conflicted with Federation dogma. The question I'm asking is : Can God exist in a Utopia?

Hmmm, good question.  I am not the best person to ask about TNG in general, but I would note that a constant of *any* Star Trek series, even TOS, was the presence of god-like beings using the crew for sport.  TOS had it's Adonis, Trelane, Organians, Metrons, etc, and TNG had most famously "Q".  In our Star Trek gaming we used to joking refer to these kind of things as "GOB"s, for "Generic Omnipotent Being".  

I think that the presence of the multitude of such creatures, themselves starting as humanoids but who were transformed were over eons by technological or psychic development into into beings with powers which earlier humanity would have seen as god-like, would be hard on the survival of our current ideas of deity.  It might go far in explaining the very materialist outlook that is apparent in the Federation of TNG, at least.  Star Trek V has already been brought up by blakkie; how can you be sure that you are talking to God when there are so many impostors!:p


TGA

Quote from: droogThat, in fact, destroys the thesis completely. There are several more holes in it, but this is the one that kills it.

Liberal economic thought is predicated on scarcity. How, for the crudest example, can you make a profit selling dildoes when everybody can get the fanciest dildo they like from a replicator? Abundance on this scale means that society will look nothing at all like ours. One could in fact criticise Trek for not going far enough; for being unimaginative.

I agree completely.  The implications of near-magical technology like replicators, transporters, and holodecks were only given very cursory consideration, mostly because to full exploration would have made for stories that were even more boring or incomprehensible to the average viewer.


TGA

We have a glimpse into a Replicator economy right now because I've got one on my computer. It's called a DVD burner. What we've done is create laws to mirror the old model.


Further replicators are limited by energy. And design of the thing to replicate.

Also small valiables trade exists throughout the series'.

Quote from: blakkieWhat we've done is create laws to mirror the old model.

Yes, but those aren't working so well. We're in a transitional phase with that technology.

Quote from: droogYes, but those aren't working so well. We're in a transitional phase with that technology.

Not working well in which way?

The point is that a scarcity outstripping the technical one has been created by those with the hand on the helm. The requti Without this control


To be continued

Quote from: blakkieAlso small valiables trade exists throughout the series'.

Yep.  I recall that some people in TNG prefer "natural" food and booze, rather than the replicated stuff, but that most people felt that you can't tell the difference.  People being people there will always be a market for boutique items whose value lies in the fact that they are rare.

Also, I could see a market in items that were not legal to replicate, so you'd have to get your vices the old fashioned way.  Romulan ale, hand phasers for non-military personnel, drugs, etc.  Of course, there would also be a trade in other old fashioned vices.  Sex is undoubtedly still popular in the 24th Century.  And they never really did explore the sexual implications of holodeck technology...:eek:

It does bring up an interesting question.  In the 24th Century, given wide-scale use of replicators in the Federation, is there much need for interstellar trade?  What materials could such a society need from anywhere else?  Even trade with neighboring species without replicators would be a fairly useless exercise as they couldn't offer anything of value which couldn't just be replicated.  

On the plus side this might eliminate much incentive for territorial or economic aggression for the purpose of acquisition of scare resources, but it would open the way for the easy destruction of non replicator-based economies...just pick valuable commodities to flood the less developed economy with and watch it go down in chaos.  Such trade would have to be strictly controlled to essentially manage the development of these neighboring economies in order to prevent instability on the edges of the Federation sphere of influence.  Hell, this might now be one of the most important aspects of the enforcement of the Prime Directive.


TGA

Quote from: blakkieNot working well in which way?

Not working well in the way that everybody I know merrily shares, rips and burns files.

But you are quite right. It's an attempt to induce an artificial scarcity.

Quote from: It does bring up an interesting question.  In the 24th Century, given wide-scale use of replicators in the Federation, is there much need for interstellar trade?  What materials could such a society need from anywhere else?  Even trade with neighboring species without replicators would be a fairly useless exercise as they couldn't offer anything of value which couldn't just be replicated.  

TGA

You could always create a set of replicator laws/rules for your trek universe. Here are a few examples, I don't think any of these violate what has been seen on the various trek shows.

1. Replicators cannot create matter from nothing (there must be some input material)

2. Replicators cannot create heavier matter from lighter matter (so no hydrogen to iron)

3. replicators cannot change the base atomic state of elemental material only change one type of molecule to another (no gold from lead transformations, but you could load in some carbon/oxygen/hydrogen, or basic food pellets, and replicate out a steak dinner)

4. Complex mechanical systems cannot easily be replicated (you can replicate a 20th century knife or pistol, but not a phaser)

5. Living things cannot be replicated.

Quote from: The Good AssyrianAnd they never really did explore the sexual implications of holodeck technology...:eek:

Oh, really (http://www.somethingawful.com/d/news/blue-stripe-life-4.php)...?

Quote...but [replicator technology] would open the way for the easy destruction of non replicator-based economies...just pick valuable commodities to flood the less developed economy with and watch it go down in chaos.  Such trade would have to be strictly controlled to essentially manage the development of these neighboring economies in order to prevent instability on the edges of the Federation sphere of influence.  Hell, this might now be one of the most important aspects of the enforcement of the Prime Directive.

Ladies and gentlemen, I believe we're onto something.

!i!

Quote from: Ian AbsentiaOh, really (http://www.somethingawful.com/d/news/blue-stripe-life-4.php)...?

Well this certainly satisfied my "puddles" curiosity.....now I don't know if I should thank you or strap you down and force you to watch 24 hour news coverage of Britney Spears.....

QuoteLadies and gentlemen, I believe we're onto something.

Yes.

Regards,
David R

Um....Guys??


They were never "explicit" about but there were many hints that Quark rented out his holosuites for "holographic prostitution" so to speak. Paramount was too skittish to let them be obvious about it.


After all , little 3/4ths Klingon Alexander was conceived while his parents were "getting it on" in a holodeck. (Go back and look at the episode, after the commercial break Worf & K'Ehleyr are putting their clothes back on...)

In a DS9 episode, Jeffrey Combs played a visiting alien that asked Quark to make a perfect holo-simulation of Major Kira  so he could ....fulfill his fantasies.  (That one ended with Dax rewriting the computer program...but thats another story)


SO, such things DO happen in that universe.


- Ed C.

Quote1. Replicators cannot create matter from nothing (there must be some input material)

This is actually something that is discussed in the "official" technical info IIRC.  The replicator is only reassembling other matter into the final form, it still needs raw atoms to do it's business.

I do recall however that it was allowed to do your number 2 though, as that was how they simplified the amount of matter required for a starship to transport in order to operate the replicators, and it also meant you could pretty much power the thing by scooping up loose hydrogen provided usage levels weren't too high.  

I'm not sure though on that last bit, as IIRC, hyrdogen scoops were largely dismissed as useless in real space science because the amount of loose matter in space was far less than enough to practically power much of anything.  

Another limitation that was discussed occasionally in the series was that replicators were somewhat limited in the complexity of the molecular patterns and structures they could imitate, which was why replicator food never tasted quite like the real thing, and why you couldn't replicate latinum.

Okay just to add a little something to this discussion (and my campaign). How about some memorable lines from Trek :D

In space, all warriors are cold ones - General Chang (The Undiscovered Country)

Regards,
David R

Quote from: J ArcaneThis is actually something that is discussed in the "official" technical info IIRC.  The replicator is only reassembling other matter into the final form, it still needs raw atoms to do it's business.

.

Now that you mention it I bet there is a Trek tech manual somewhere that explains how replicator tech works in the trek universe (probably in nauseating detail). It would probably be easier to throw out the treknology explanation and make up your own rules rather than design an economic system that would work with replicators all over the place.

Quote from: droogNot working well in the way that everybody I know merrily shares, rips and burns files.

But you are quite right. It's an attempt to induce an artificial scarcity.

Not everyone. And nor without bumps. Sure there are some grey and blackmarket but billions are paid each year. The info economy is alive and well.

Quote from: blakkieNot everyone. And nor without bumps. Sure there are some grey and blackmarket but billions are paid each year. The info economy is alive and well.

This side-topic is a bit of a thread-killer if we pursue it (though I guess it might have some application). But I do think there are several significant differences. Firstly, in the information economy you're dealing with something that is essentially a luxury. Secondly, you're still dealing with people socialised in a certain way. Thirdly, it has definitely changed the buying habits of dozens of people I know, and I can only assume that the widespread availability of essentially free physical goods is going to change that even more.

But I'm not quite sure what we're talking about here. Are we having some sort of political argument?

Quote from: J Arcane...number 2...

...loose matter in space...

Tee-hee! :D

!i!

Quote from: Ian AbsentiaTee-hee! :D

!i!

Actually, if I recall correctly, recycled organic waste is one of the matter sources the replicators use . . .

...by-the-way, Riker was doing a Peter Venkman imitation throughout the first 3 seasons of Next Generation - but I should save that for another thread.



- Ed C.

Quote from: The Good AssyrianSex is undoubtedly still popular in the 24th Century.  And they never really did explore the sexual implications of holodeck technology...:eek:

I think there were some allusions in the Barclay episodes already. Of course, they were all just sittting happily in the park, but the real Trois and Crushers were so... offended.

When you get to DS9 Quark is offering the Vulcan Slave program constantly. Somehow I doubt that this is edutainment about slaves in Latinum mines.

Also there is a scene were Sisko is concerned that Jake wants to go to Holosuit with Nog. Jake's reply: "Dad, we're just playing base ball."

Quote from: 1of3I think there were some allusions in the Barclay episodes already. Of course, they were all just sittting happily in the park, but the real Trois and Crushers were so... offended.

When you get to DS9 Quark is offering the Vulcan Slave program constantly. Somehow I doubt that this is edutainment about slaves in Latinum mines.

Also there is a scene were Sisko is concerned that Jake wants to go to Holosuit with Nog. Jake's reply: "Dad, we're just playing base ball."

Indeed, it's made pretty damn clear in DS9 that for most of the races and cultures in the galaxy, sex is basically what holosuites are for, and Quark always seemed to be somewhat baffled and annoyed by the Fed guys who were wasting suite time with crap like simulating the invasion of the Alamo, when he could be selling that time to some wealthy trader who wanted to find out what it would be like to have sex with a woman with 6 heads and 3 extra clitorises.

Quote from: J Arcane....trader who wanted to find out what it would be like to have sex with a woman with 6 heads and 3 extra clitorises.

J, have you just handed me one of the main themes of my campaign or just an adventure idea ?

Regards,
David R

Quote from: droogThis side-topic is a bit of a thread-killer if we pursue it (though I guess it might have some application).

No thread killer. Interesting what I'm reading so far.....but I would just like it if some Trek references were scattered about :D

Regards,
David R

Quote from: RockViperYou could always create a set of replicator laws/rules for your trek universe. Here are a few examples, I don't think any of these violate what has been seen on the various trek shows.

1. Replicators cannot create matter from nothing (there must be some input material)

2. Replicators cannot create heavier matter from lighter matter (so no hydrogen to iron)

3. replicators cannot change the base atomic state of elemental material only change one type of molecule to another (no gold from lead transformations, but you could load in some carbon/oxygen/hydrogen, or basic food pellets, and replicate out a steak dinner)

4. Complex mechanical systems cannot easily be replicated (you can replicate a 20th century knife or pistol, but not a phaser)

5. Living things cannot be replicated.

For what it is worth, there is an article here (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Replicator_(Star_Trek)) that gives some canon details of what it can and can't do.  In the end, you are right on point 1 and 5, but apparently it can take any matter and transform it into any other matter (with a few notable exceptions), as long as the pattern in stored in memory.  The limitations appear to be memory storage and power requirements, it taking a lot more power to transform more complex substances.  But, heck, we can hook the fucker up to a matter/anti-matter power plant, so that can't be too much of a limitation, right? ;)

Quote from: RockViperNow that you mention it I bet there is a Trek tech manual somewhere that explains how replicator tech works in the trek universe (probably in nauseating detail). It would probably be easier to throw out the treknology explanation and make up your own rules rather than design an economic system that would work with replicators all over the place.

You have a point in that the core issue is that the writers didn't really think these things through very well, and one approach is to simply make up some gibberish and do some hand waving.  Which is cool, but I kinda like designing economic systems...

Doesn't everyone? :haw:


TGA

Quote from: Ian AbsentiaOh, really (http://www.somethingawful.com/d/news/blue-stripe-life-4.php)...?

I personally hold you responsible for making me laugh my monkey ass off and waking up my wife this morning, sir.  The pain that I experienced will be visited upon you in a white hot punishment that will make 24 hours of Britney seem like a little slice of heaven...that was some seriously funny shit! :D

Quote from: Ian AbsentiaLadies and gentlemen, I believe we're onto something.

One thing that springs to mind is the old Traveller:The New Era (Heavens forfend he mention it's dreaded name!) idea of a Technologically Elevated Dictator (TED).  A Federation citizen with sociopathic tendencies and possessing a portable replicator (seen here (http://memory-alpha.org/en/wiki/Image:Portable_matter_replicator.jpg)), a hand phaser, and a holodeck could be a dangerous threat to any less developed society.  They could set themselves up in lavish luxury and power, and even become as a god on truly primitive worlds.  On space flight/pre-replicator worlds such people would still be very dangerous, able to manipulate whole economies for their pleasure.

I am sure that there would be several famous example of just such things happening, which would serve to justify the Federation's strict policies.  The threat of technological and ideological "leakage" beyond the frontiers through breakaway groups like the Maquis could only be seen as a dangerous source of destabilization.

The Federation in the 24th Century has it pretty good.  Destabilization is something to be avoided at all costs.  As I recall the Maquis even got their hands on a dozen industrial-scale replicators when Eddington went over to them.  No wonder the Federation treated them as such a threat to order.


TGA

Quote from: KoltarUm....Guys??


They were never "explicit" about but there were many hints that Quark rented out his holosuites for "holographic prostitution" so to speak. Paramount was too skittish to let them be obvious about it.


After all , little 3/4ths Klingon Alexander was conceived while his parents were "getting it on" in a holodeck. (Go back and look at the episode, after the commercial break Worf & K'Ehleyr are putting their clothes back on...)

In a DS9 episode, Jeffrey Combs played a visiting alien that asked Quark to make a perfect holo-simulation of Major Kira  so he could ....fulfill his fantasies.  (That one ended with Dax rewriting the computer program...but thats another story)


SO, such things DO happen in that universe.


- Ed C.

I was only half-kidding.  I haven't seen a lot of the episodes that you referred to, but I vaguely recalled that creepy Barclay guy...how the hell did that twisted dude get through the "rigorous" Starfleet selection process, anyway?


TGA

Quote from: David ROkay just to add a little something to this discussion (and my campaign). How about some memorable lines from Trek :D

In space, all warriors are cold ones - General Chang (The Undiscovered Country)

Regards,
David R

(http://www.jammersreviews.com/images/misc/khan/kirk_scream.jpg)

KHHHAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAN!

Sorry, couldn't help myself...

Ahem, how about this one from Kirk in the TOS episode "A Taste of Armageddon", which is one of my favorites.  It is a bit long, but I like it.

"All, right - it's instinctive. But the instinct can be fought. We're human beings, with the blood of a million savage years on our hands. But we can stop it! We can admit we're killers, but we're not going to kill today. That's all it takes. Knowing that you're not going to kill... today. Call Vendekar; I think you'll find them just as horrified, shocked, as appalled as you are -- willing to do anything to avoid the alternative I've given you; peace or utter destruction. It's up to you."

Non-interference, my ass! :p


TGA

Just FYI David, I pitched the "Star Trek Meets Battlestar Galactica" idea to my group last night, as well as the "Voyager Done Right" idea.  

They opted for a straight Sword & Sorcery "thieves guild" game using Reign.  It will be fun, but this thread was getting me jazzed about Star Trek again...[sigh]  :D


TGA

Quote from: David ROkay just to add a little something to this discussion (and my campaign). How about some memorable lines from Trek :D

Khan: "Kirk! You're still alive, old friend."
Kirk: "Still.  Old. Friend. You've managed to kill everyone else but like a poor marksman, you. Keep. Missing the target."

!i!

Quote from: The Good AssyrianYou have a point in that the core issue is that the writers didn't really think these things through very well, and one approach is to simply make up some gibberish and do some hand waving.  Which is cool, but I kinda like designing economic systems...

Doesn't everyone? :haw:


TGA

See I knew a trekkie somewhere had written up replicator technology (damn nerds :) ). Well there we go all our problems are solved, we expect a full economic system in Wiki form no later than Friday. :p

Quote from: The Good AssyrianJust FYI David, I pitched the "Star Trek Meets Battlestar Galactica" idea to my group last night, as well as the "Voyager Done Right" idea.  

They opted for a straight Sword & Sorcery "thieves guild" game using Reign.  It will be fun, but this thread was getting me jazzed about Star Trek again...[sigh]  :D

Trek will be waiting for them, when they are ready. I never thought I'd ever run a Trek campaign....but here I am on a serious buzz after reading the replies on this thread.

And I have to ....have to...create a villain like Khan :D

Regards,
David R

Quote from: David RAnd I have to ....have to...create a villain like Khan :D

Well, Khan Noonian Singh was just one of the "genetically superior" warlords vying for supremecy during the Eugenics Wars of the 90s.  I suppose it's entirely possible that some of the other warlords and their cohorts -- the ones on the losing end of the struggle -- may have fled in sub-light ships during the chaos and set up shop elsewhere.  Perhaps that's too much like Khan himself, though (though no one said he -- or she -- had to have the same cultural background or personality as Khan).

!i!

And this time Ian, there will be no deus ex machina to save the crew :evillaugh:

(And yes that's what happened in Wrath IMO :D )

Regards,
David R

Quote from: droogThis side-topic is a bit of a thread-killer if we pursue it (though I guess it might have some application).

I think it's right on topic and I think David gave the go-ahead here, so I'll run with it. And yes, it's sort of political...which is natural since we are talking the politics of the Federation. :)
>>Firstly, in the information economy you're dealing with something that is essentially a luxury.

- There are always going to be a "luxuries", these are defined in a relative way. But we AREN'T just talking about "luxuries" in the hear and now. At least I'm not, because this goes well beyond DVDs and CDs right now....into --food production-- for example. But you probably don't notice that though because, for you, food probably already sits below your notice already because it's not really something you have to worry about. It puts a little dent in your budget but for the most part you just go get it.

>> Secondly, you're still dealing with people socialised in a certain way.

- And in a lot of ways the Federation has it's roots in that. I'm pointing out that information age doesn't necessarily mean completely changing the rules. Because there are still physical limitations. Hey, if the UFP didn't have resource limitations then they'd never lose a war of attrition. Which they clearly do in a number of instances, such as the alternate time-line with the Fed at war with the Klingons, that involved Tasha Yar.

>> Thirdly, it has definitely changed the buying habits of dozens of people I know, and I can only assume that the widespread availability of essentially free physical goods is going to change that even more.

- However the people with their hand on the helm have brought in rules that keep their hand on the helm. This happens because if they don't they become irrelavent. Yes they have to toss bones to the masses, some power sharing, to quell the open revolts but that's really about spreading around the benefits to enough people. So we can assume that the UFP keeps their hand firmly on the helm by . Free replicated food. *shrug* A bone. But they aren't going to let every Tom, Dick, and Harriette replicate up a space ship (or even possess a replicator capable of that) or even weapons. Or probably any large capital because we do see the concept of personal ownership in the Federation. We just happen to view most of it via a military setting, or little shitholes out on the edge.

Re: Limitations on replication. It makes little sense to say that hydrogen can't be converted to iron. Atomically iron is at the bottom of the hill, coming from both ways.  Fission ond fusion meet at Fe.  Going from H to Fe on the chart is exothermic (excess energy given off) via fusion, going from the high end down to Fe is exothermic via fission. That's why there is some much iron around (although most of earth's is settled at the core because of it's specific gravity). Yes you need a lot of H's to make Fe. But as a bonus you'll probably net a little energy out of it once you get some efficencies in your process.

Also if replicators were so good at this there wouldn't be all these mining operations popping up in the series.

Quote from: David RAnd this time Ian, there will be no deus ex machina to save the crew :evillaugh:

Ah, here we are -- canon evidence that others like Khan are out there (http://memory-alpha.org/en/wiki/Augment_Crisis).  Of course, this depends on whether or not one views Enterprise as truly canon.  Interesting that they chose to rope in Commander Data's back story.

!i!

Quote from: Ian AbsentiaAh, here we are -- canon evidence that others like Khan are out there (http://memory-alpha.org/en/wiki/Augment_Crisis).  

First off, I really dig this Trek site :D

Also, I'm seriously considering creating a Khan-like nemesis based on Lena Olin's character from Romeo Is Bleeding.

Regards,
David R

Quote from: David RAlso, I'm seriously considering creating a Khan-like nemesis based on Lena Olin's character from Romeo Is Bleeding.

Oh...oh, Jesus Fuck, yes.

I think I need to go change my pants.

!i!

Quote from: Ian AbsentiaOh...oh, Jesus Fuck, yes.

I think I need to go change my pants.

And if I play her right, she won't be in a position where anyone is "laughing at her superior intellect".


Regards,
David R

Occassional lurker here - this thread caught my eye enough to actually register and post a response :)

Back in the day (early 2000s) I was on a quasi-official site for LUG-Trek and later Decipher Trek at Trek-RPG.net. The site itself is pretty dead, but it  (and the web address) was saved and preserved in amber, so to speak.

Huge source of info and ideas for Trek, not to mention the various free e-books that Steve Long produced.

My own two latinum - like any political movement the Maquis is a spectrum from moderates to nutters. It might be in the Federation's interest to suppport the former, which in turn allows for the possibility of a Starfleet 'liaison' or two (overt or covert), if some of your players want a character closer to the Star Trek model. Of course, as events unfold they may find their feelings and assumptions challenged...

Hope that helps

Quote from: PremodernistOccassional lurker here - this thread caught my eye enough to actually register and post a response :)

Welcome to theRPGSite!



TGA

Quote from: PremodernistOccassional lurker here - this thread caught my eye enough to actually register and post a response :)
Hope that helps

Welcome to the site and it does help :)

Regards,
David R

Quote from: PremodernistMy own two latinum - like any political movement the Maquis is a spectrum from moderates to nutters. It might be in the Federation's interest to suppport the former,

Why did I suddenly imagine a campaign all about Maquis religious-fanatic terrorists who were the same ones the Federation supported in overthrowing the Cardassians now turning around and blowing up some really important Starfleet building; and the Federation getting itself caught up in a military-political quagmire on Bajor and some other planet that had nothing to do with it? :p

RPGPundit

Quote from: RPGPunditWhy did I suddenly imagine a campaign all about Maquis religious-fanatic terrorists who were the same ones the Federation supported in overthrowing the Cardassians now turning around and blowing up some really important Starfleet building; and the Federation getting itself caught up in a military-political quagmire on Bajor and some other planet that had nothing to do with it? :p

RPGPundit

Have you been watching bad episodes of Voyager or something? I mean, it's sci-fi, but it should still make some sort of logical sense...

...wait a minute... :D

One could also draw parallels between the Maquis and the Bosnians in the Balkan Wars of the early 1990s, with the Cardassian military and armed Cardassian settlers playing roles broadly comparable to Serb militias and Bosnian Serbs. Lots of 'ethnic cleansing' going on, with the Federation reduced to impotent hand-wringing and finger-wagging.

Yeah, who'd have thought that you could still bleed a little bit more social relevance out of the dead husklike stone that is the Star Trek franchise?

RPGPundit

I would.


Its still a good frame for possibly better-than-average writers to set stories inside of.

 Trouble is - finding those writers.


- Ed C.

Well it's back to the drawing board. With this new movie coming out, my players are all "let's create our own legends....you know, Classic Trek stuff....."

:combust:

Regards,
David R

I need to direct Engine to this thread, I know he owns an amazing amount of Trek stuff, and I am pretty sure he's read nearly every science fiction novel, or novella, ever written.

Line them up with their hands at their sides, and kick them each in the groin, on-by-one for me.

I say fine.  Go with the Khan option.  They're going to make their own legends, so are you.  Lena Olin as Khan, totally badass.  Only this time around, the SS Botany Bay was launched off toward what would one day become Romulan territory instead of would-be Federation territory.  Her particular brand of charisma, human though it may be, has proven a catalyst among certain more militant elements within Romulan society.  Still a minority, Khan's unholy marriage between eugenically enhanced Terrans and militant separatist Romulans is becoming a force to be reckoned with.

Alternately, replace Romulans with Orions, and you have a burgeoning pirate/slaver empire that is dogging rapaciously at the outskirts of both the Federation and the Romulan Empire (or is it the Klingons?  I forget.)  Imagine Khan with a bevy of green Orion slave girls at his feet.

!i!

Quote from: Ian Absentia;266871Line them up with their hands at their sides, and kick them each in the groin, on-by-one for me.

And I would this...I really would, but I think when I show them the schematics of their brand new state of the art super secret "special response" starship they will remember all the planning and characters they created. And the fun we had while doing so.

BTW here's a link to some starship designs from various TV shows :

http://www.shipschematics.net/

Quote from: David R;266809Well it's back to the drawing board. With this new movie coming out, my players are all "let's create our own legends....you know, Classic Trek stuff....."

:combust:

Regards,
David R

I feel your pain, David.

I have always been fond of the pre-classic Star Trek stuff that was only hinted at until this new movie.  My favorite episode of *any* Star Trek series is, ironically, the very first pilot "The Cage" starring Jeffrey Hunter.  It just seems like it has a little more of a true frontier feel then even TOS.  By TNG there is no frontier feel at all...

Maybe in an early Trek game might be fun to explore this idea.  


TGA

Quote from: David R;266899BTW here's a link to some starship designs from various TV shows :

http://www.shipschematics.net/

Here's the link I like for this... Kind of gives one the idea of the scale of the Trek ships, as say, compared to a Battlestar or Star Destroyer.

http://www.merzo.net/ (http://www.merzo.net/)

Quote from: The Good Assyrian;267098I feel your pain, David.

I have always been fond of the pre-classic Star Trek stuff that was only hinted at until this new movie.  My favorite episode of *any* Star Trek series is, ironically, the very first pilot "The Cage" starring Jeffrey Hunter.  It just seems like it has a little more of a true frontier feel then even TOS.  By TNG there is no frontier feel at all...

Maybe in an early Trek game might be fun to explore this idea.  


TGA

The thing I loved about the original Star Trek series was exactly what you note. The original series setting had a really wild & woolly "feel" to it. Starfleet seemed like the British navy of the 18th and 19th centuries, with ships being pretty self-reliant and heading into the unknown.

Even the fairly silly episodes, like A Piece of the Action, which had a planet that was essentially one huge mob-run 1920s-era Chicago, lent an air of mystery to things. How the hell did these humans get here? How did more than one planet end up with Earth's exact topography (there were a few episodes that showed a planet with the distinct outline of North America)? Sure, a lot of this is stuff the original writers probably put no real thought into, but the sum total was a setting of awe-inspiring enigmas that thoughtful viewers could read into. The later series, movies, and books spent too much time defining what was and wasn't out there, rather than exploring the unknown.

The new trailer to the new movie has really got me jazzed. The accounts of the four scenes that have been shown to a lucky few seem to indicate a return to the wild & woolly Trek of old. If I was gonna run a Trek game, and I'm pretty tempted to work on one, I'd definitely set it in the era of the original series and the new movie. It seems a lot more fun and swashbuckling and "anything goes" than a lot of what came later.

Quote from: ColonelHardisson;267107The thing I loved about the original Star Trek series was exactly what you note. The original series setting had a really wild & woolly "feel" to it. Starfleet seemed like the British navy of the 18th and 19th centuries, with ships being pretty self-reliant and heading into the unknown.

Even the fairly silly episodes, like A Piece of the Action, which had a planet that was essentially one huge mob-run 1920s-era Chicago, lent an air of mystery to things. How the hell did these humans get here? How did more than one planet end up with Earth's exact topography (there were a few episodes that showed a planet with the distinct outline of North America)? Sure, a lot of this is stuff the original writers probably put no real thought into, but the sum total was a setting of awe-inspiring enigmas that thoughtful viewers could read into. The later series, movies, and books spent too much time defining what was and wasn't out there, rather than exploring the unknown.

The new trailer to the new movie has really got me jazzed. The accounts of the four scenes that have been shown to a lucky few seem to indicate a return to the wild & woolly Trek of old. If I was gonna run a Trek game, and I'm pretty tempted to work on one, I'd definitely set it in the era of the original series and the new movie. It seems a lot more fun and swashbuckling and "anything goes" than a lot of what came later.

Plus, if you run a game pre-teleporter, you cover up a multitude of sins...

Quote from: ColonelHardisson;267107The thing I loved about the original Star Trek series was exactly what you note. The original series setting had a really wild & woolly "feel" to it. Starfleet seemed like the British navy of the 18th and 19th centuries, with ships being pretty self-reliant and heading into the unknown.

I am completely with you on this!  I ran a campaign a few years back based exactly on this premise.  It was definitely wild & woolly in spirit!  Here is the background briefing that I gave the players:

QuoteCampaign Background
   The campaign will be set in the year 2251 (about 15 years before Star Trek:TOS) The players will be a group of Starfleet officers assigned to the starship U.S.S Ark Angel (a Baton Rouge class cruiser) as a experimental first contact/planetside troubleshooting group.

Genre and Feel

This campaign will be definitely Star Trek in its essence, with a generally optimistic view of humanity's future and the positive role of technology in providing an environment where the human spirit can excel.  The campaign will be slightly darker in tone than most Star Trek, however, as some of the most basic problems plaguing human existence, like hunger and disease, have only recently been conquered, and are still lurking.  Only 5 years before the start of the campaign, for example, thousands of colonists on Tarsus IV were killed by the infamous Kodos the Executioner after the colony's crops failed.  Sadly, the stories of failed colonies and outbreaks of disease are far too common, and it will be many decades before recent technological advancements, like the replicator, will completely liberate humanity from these evils.  The characters may well be on the front line in the fight to ensure a brighter future for all Humanity.

The campaign will also have a "frontier" feel to it.  The characters will often be the sole representatives of Federation law and authority for many parsecs.  Because communications with higher authorities will take a long time the characters will have large latitude of action, but this will also come with large responsibilities.  They will also often be forced to rely solely upon their own resources to resolve the problems that they will face.


Politics and Technology Background Info

The Federation

The Federation has been in existence for 90 years. Originally a very loose organization of 5 close allies, it has grown both in size in power over these years. As the result of the growing needs of defense and economic regulation the Federation government has become consistently more centralized and pervasive, and the average Federation citizen now feels the hand of the Federation government in their daily lives more often than in the past.

This has not come without some conflict. Each of the founding members of the Federation have to some extent resisted this trend of the growth of the Federation government's power at the expense of local control. There has been numerous examples of serious conflicts between Federation members, and the Federation's inability to deal with the most serious of these conflicts has been one argument for expanding the jurisdiction of the Federation and Starfleet. There has also been considerable resentment of the political, economic and military power of Earth. In fact, the Federation, and Starfleet in particular, has since the beginning been largely seen as being dominated by the interests of Earth.

The Klingons

Since the first contact was made with this aggressive race almost 40 years ago, relations between the Federation and the Klingon Empire have been universally poor. Deadly skirmishes along the ill-defined border between these two civilizations have been a constant feature of this relationship, but these conflicts have grown in number and intensity as a result of increasing Federation colonization (much of it unauthorized) and development of disputed regions.

The Klingons have roughly equivalent levels of technological development to the Federation and their aggressiveness makes them the greatest threat to Federation security, surpassing the fear of renewed Romulan aggression. In fact, as a result of the increased tensions with the Klingons, Starfleet has been greatly enlarged in recent years, with new classes of highly capable starships being built to meet this growing threat.  Starfleet has also recently issued a general alert in the frontier zone, and many Federation starships are being redeployed to the border.

Starships

The most advanced and powerful vessels currently in Starfleet service are the Constitution class cruisers that have been built in the last 10 years. The Constitution class is the largest of a new series of starships that were all designed along the same principles and were all built as part of  a comprehensive defense appropriations plan put forward in the 2230s. This series of starships includes the Saladin class, the Hermes class, and the Ptolemy class starships, all of which have entered Starfleet service in recent years. There are even rumors that an even  larger and more capable vessel than the Constitution class in on the drawing boards.

Most of the workhorses of Starfleet are still the older vessels, like the Baton Rouge class cruisers, Lowell class scouts, and a few remaining Mann class cruisers. These older ships have been upgraded over the years to incorporate new technologies and will still perform useful service in Starfleet for years to come until they can be replaced by the newer generation of starships.

Warp Drive

Until the incorporation of dilithium crystals in Federation warp drives in 2237 the problems of power efficiency limited Federation vessels to maximum speeds of Warp 4.9. Since that time Federation vessels incorporating the new dilithium-focussed warp drives have broken the so-called "time barrier" and have reached speeds approaching Warp 9.

Transporter

Invented in the early 2200s the matter-energy transporter device has only become small and safe enough for widespread deployment on Starfleet vessels since 2229. It is now considered a safe and efficient means of transportation, but the use of a shuttlecraft or other alternate means of transportation is still recommended if conditions are not optimal for use of the matter-energy transporter.

Replicator

This relatively new technology has the promise to revolutionize not only life aboard a starship, but also the basic functioning of economics and the way that people live in the Federation. Using technology associated with that of the matter-energy transporter it has been made possible to create material goods and simple organic compounds from basic molecular components. Currently, material replicators are bulky, energy intensive, and capable only of practically producing small objects. In the coming years, however, it is projected that improved methods will enable the efficient production of lager material goods and even complex organic compounds for nutrition that will be customizable for taste and texture.  If these predictions come true, then Federation society of the future may be a utopian place free of hunger and where the traditional ideas of economics and property, which are based on supply and demand of limited resources, will no longer be in force.

TGA

Quote from: Cranewings;267112Plus, if you run a game pre-teleporter, you cover up a multitude of sins...

Yeah, but my preference is the "Captain Pike" era and the transporter was a feature of the original pilot episode.  My solution was to make it an unreliable technology that was only useful in perfect conditions, which of course was usually not what the PCs were facing.  It also gave the technology wizard character something to tinker with, while everyone else made McCoy's attitude towards the transporter look tame!  :D


TGA

Quote from: Ian Absentia;173077Ah, here we are -- canon evidence that others like Khan are out there (http://memory-alpha.org/en/wiki/Augment_Crisis).

Well, evidence that they were, anyway. All the remaining augments, as well as the embryos from Cold Station 12, were all on the bird-of-prey when Malik blew it up just after transporting to Enterprise. That leaves Khan's cold-sleep Botany Bay, and others like it.

That said, the Klingons were able to pull embryos from the wreckage of Cold Station 12 to do their own experiments in forehead-smoothing, so some could still remain there, plus some unused embryos could remain at the Klingon research facility. And besides, Dr Keniclius* - the first clone - was exiled much like Khan and his friends; one might presume, even if clinging to canon, that others must exist out there besides these few.

I guess I've watched basically every episode of every series, and read every novel up until a decade or so ago [when they really started going off the rails]. I'm not, like, a huge fan: I just read a lot, and I'll watch pretty much anything if it features space. [I've even watched all of Starhunter. Seriously.] So I'll try to keep an eye on this thread and chip in where I can.

*Animated series, yo.

Transporters can be a game-breaker, true, if the GM doesn't pay careful attention. The TV show presented many instances where transporters didn't work, so using those as a precedent would be wise. Plus, consider that the transporters we saw on the various TV shows were on state-of-the-art starships, and military starships, to boot. Older starships, or ones that aren't as cutting edge as Starfleet's ships-of-the-line like the Enterprise, may have less powerful and/or reliable transporters, or may not have them at all, depending on the missions they were designed for.

Quote from: Engine;267326That said, the Klingons were able to pull [augmented] embryos from the wreckage of Cold Station 12 to do their own experiments in forehead-smoothing...

Not really canon, but the FASA Klingon supplement described the Klingons as being totally amenable to creating genetically-fused hybrids specifically to act as interfaces with other significant threats to the Empire.  Thus, there are not only smooth-foreheaded Klingon-Human hybrids, but there are also just-slightly-crinkly-foreheaded, pointy-eared Klingon-Romulan hybrids.

And I can't really think of a way to turn that into an interesting RPG adventure off the top of my head.

!i!

FASA-Trek is now EXTREMELY 'non-canon' these days.

Has been since 1988.


- Ed C.

Quote from: Koltar;267492FASA-Trek is now EXTREMELY 'non-canon' these days.

Has been since 1988.


- Ed C.

As are all of the novels, which is too bad because some of the TOS novels were decent reads.

RE: klingons
Evil beatnicks > space orcs.

Quote from: Koltar;267492FASA-Trek is now EXTREMELY 'non-canon' these days.

No duh, Ed.  That's why I said so.  But, as so many of us are fond of saying about historical RPGs, the second you start playing, it becomes alt-history.  So, the FASA stuff is fine fodder for an individual's roleplaying campaign as a jumping-off point into alt-Trek.

Besides, I was somewhat satisfied to see that the FASA explanation of why there was a difference between bumpy Klingons and smooth ones ended up matching the canon explanation somewhat.

!i!

Quote from: Ian Absentia;267510Besides, I was somewhat satisfied to see that the FASA explanation of why there was a difference between bumpy Klingons and smooth ones ended up matching the canon explanation somewhat.

!i!

I can agree with you sort of on that one.

 It does fall in the "somewhat" category.

...just the proper nouns are different , but its still mostly the same concept.

 After being in Klingon fandom since 1992 - thats a topic sure to get me cranky. Mainly because of I've heard all the intellectual fan-wank on all sides of explaining that one. (The 'bumpy' vs. 'smooth' story/ and how are they all the same race stuff)

Alsoi, one of the main designers of the FASA TREk game stopped into the store one day and chatted with me for close to an hour & half about stuff. I finally heard the 'real' story about some things FASA-related.  (Which I  will only talk about in PM communication)

David R., I still like your orginal concept for the campaign.

- Ed C.

Quote from: Koltar;267518David R., I still like your orginal concept for the campaign.

Oh, it still on Ed. I've roughly planned out the "first season" where the PCs have to babysit a group of settlers and tangle with an enigmatic group of Reman "drug dealers" working for an unknown Mr. Big.

Regards,
David R

Quote from: RockViper;267504As are all of the novels, which is too bad because some of the TOS novels were decent reads.

Especially The Final Reflection, byt the late John M. Ford, who also wrote the Klingon supplement for FASA.

Quote from: Engine;267326That said, the Klingons were able to pull embryos from the wreckage of Cold Station 12...

Duh. No, they pulled them from the wreckage of the bird-of-prey, stupid.

Quote from: Ian Absentia;267442Not really canon, but the FASA Klingon supplement described the Klingons as being totally amenable to creating genetically-fused hybrids specifically to act as interfaces with other significant threats to the Empire.  Thus, there are not only smooth-foreheaded Klingon-Human hybrids, but there are also just-slightly-crinkly-foreheaded, pointy-eared Klingon-Romulan hybrids.

Final Reflection talks a bit about this, not surprisingly [same writer]. One of the main characters [Gelly; Kelly once her name is ennobled] is an un-named fusion, and several others pop up during the book. Ford is one of the many post-ST:TMP novel authors to talk about the Imperial Race as being something distinct from the Klingons we saw in the original series; this comes up in both Final Reflection and How Much For Just the Planet?

Quote from: andar;267557Especially The Final Reflection, byt the late John M. Ford, who also wrote the Klingon supplement for FASA.

In my opinion, the best Trek novel, although most avid readers of the novels don't agree. John M Ford is one of my favorite authors, though, so it's understandable I'd favor his works.

Favorite stupid trivia: in FASA's version of the Galaxy-class starship, the controls weren't anything so mundane as touch-sensitive, they were actually photosensitive and detected the shadow of a finger [or other manipulating digit] when cast on them by a "press." This sounds suitably future-like, I guess, but fails to explain how the controls work in the dark. :) Just got to thinking about that this weekend, for no apparent reason; I've never played the FASA Star Trek game, so it's not like it ever came up.