A weird sidenote; I think the problems mentioned by the OP are part of the reason why many people are drawn to historical settings other than the West. Because they *THINK* that e.g. ancient Japan or China or Pre-Columbian America had less of such issues, or at the very least fewer people know about the issues. Meanwhile the West has been doing nothing but wallowing in its own misery over past wrongdoing for the last few decades. So the past of e.g. the ancient East might seem more "heroic". (see e.g. how ridiculously the movie "The Eternals" handles the past of different regions.)

I've never played a hard historical setting in an rpg... unless dying of dysentery in Oregon Trails on an Apple IIe during the 4th grade in the 1980s counts.   

Quote from: RNGm on May 11, 2025, 11:22:56 PMI've never played a hard historical setting in an rpg... unless dying of dysentery in Oregon Trails on an Apple IIe during the 4th grade in the 1980s counts.   

Hilarious, my only hard historical RPG was a 5th grade pen-and-paper Oregon Trail RPG my teacher presented us with. That was a decade before the Apple version, I guess she was ahead of her time!

We died crossing a river.

Drowning during a river crossing (as well as starvation) were two other alternate endings in that educational 80s kids game as well, lol.   I don't know if the computer game was based on/inspired by an earlier pen and paper one or if they're just drawning from the shared original inspiration of the original settlers' experience though.

This reminds me of the 1980s Sierra game "Gold Rush!". So many ways to die in that one.

Quote from: Rhymer88 on May 11, 2025, 03:53:50 AMThe Romans very rarely used galley slaves. Rowers were overwhelmingly freemen. They were trained professionals and also fought if the ship was boarded. The idea that Roman ships were rowed by chained galley slaves is a misconception created by the movie Ben Hur.

Yep, it's a myth, even if the Carthaginians allegedly had a proclivity for using slave oarsmen (Roman propaganda?). Oared galleys of antiquity have very limited storage space. They couldn't carry enough food and water for several hundred oarsmen for more than a day or two.

Which means you need a beach to stop at, ideally every night, to source new supplies and rest your oarsmen. Where are you going to put your slaves in that time? How do you stop them running off when they outnumber any marines/bully boys you might have ten or more to one? If only part of your crew are slaves, what stops the free oarsmen from wondering about whether you might enslave them?

Quote from: Omega on May 11, 2025, 12:04:49 PMGreek and Roman slavery covered alot of things indeed. Everything from just being a live-in servant, to being a POW put to some form of work, to straight up slaves. The degree of freedom vs restriction was broad as well and if I recall right some had the option of buying off their servitude and others were in servitude only for a few years.

Most had the option to buy off their slavery, in the Roman system you were "adopted" by the god who's temple your fees were lodged with. Not to mention that a master could simply give you freedom if they chose to. There were edicts freeing slaves en masse from time to time, as well.

It was only those enslaved as punishment, like those sent to the silver mines, that didn't have any way to get free.

Quote from: Ruprecht on May 11, 2025, 12:13:52 PMWhat about the Muslims? I've read far more stories with Muslims having galley slaves even in later eras (Hornblower and Sea Hawk for example).

I think the difference here is that these were ships that could stay afloat indefinitely. Keeping slaves aboard was possible, where it wasn't with the oared galleys of antiquity.

Greetings!

Hmmm...well, the ancient Greek sources often explicitly state that Oarsmen and Galley Crews amongst the Greeks were Free Men. That certainly implies that many other nations routinely used galley slaves.

Semper Fidelis,

SHARK

Quote from: SHARK on Today at 11:34:55 AMGreetings!

Hmmm...well, the ancient Greek sources often explicitly state that Oarsmen and Galley Crews amongst the Greeks were Free Men. That certainly implies that many other nations routinely used galley slaves.

Semper Fidelis,

SHARK

I think that's the Athenians puffing themselves up in the surviving sources. Theirs was a unique situation, their lowest class, the thetes, earned their right to vote and serve on juries by serving the nation as oarsmen. Deemed equivalent to the way the richer men would serve on land as hoplites or cavalry.

Other Greek cities used hired, professional oarsmen who were basically mercenaries, which sidestepped the political implications of enfranchisement that the Athenian model offered.

It seems to be the case that most societies eventually come to the conclusion that employing slaves in active military roles is an iffy proposition at best.

Mediterranean naval combat in classical antiquity was very reliant on ramming and boarding, so the rowers are an absolutely critical part of that weapon system. They're arguably doing the single most important job on the ship. You would want high morale, discipline and motivation in the people you put in that role.

By the Ottoman period, oar power is starting to give way to sail power, and naval warfare is starting to become more about maneuver and gunnery, so there's a logic to using slaves as oarsmen there. Even then, it could backfire pretty badly. At Lepanto in 1571, Christian sailors were able to board Ottoman ships and free the galley slaves. You have to figure that quite a few of them would have taken up arms and provided their co-religionists with free reinforcements in the middle of the battle.

Quote from: SHARK on Today at 11:34:55 AMHmmm...well, the ancient Greek sources often explicitly state that Oarsmen and Galley Crews amongst the Greeks were Free Men. That certainly implies that many other nations routinely used galley slaves.

It's been awhile since I read up on this. (The book "Naval Warfare Under Oars" by William Rodgers is excellent.) My memory however is that it isn't that clear cut in terminology, but that it was fairly clear cut in practice.  To wit, as others have said, military purposes simply were not met very well by slave rowers.

By the time you get biremes emerging--let alone the more complicated versions of the later biremes and triremes, professional rowers are required.  You simply cannot afford for some screw up to mess up a whole section of oars, possibly injuring or even killing some of the rowers in the process.  Sure, simple merchants ships or transports to get troops across a relatively short passage, maybe.  But not combat.

Also, "free" in the Greek context here is carrying a lot of weight.  In the Greek/Persian conflicts, some of those "free" Greek rowers were slaves with experienced rowing ability who volunteered for the campaign for pay--and if I remember correctly, even the prospect of becoming citizens at the end of it. Whereas many of the Persian rowers were conscripts, not technically slaves but in practice without much say in how things went.  In either case, a given team had to spend a lot of time practicing together to have any chance in a fight.