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5e and the state of the industry

Started by Dimitrios, February 10, 2021, 09:31:39 AM

Previous topic - Next topic

Renegade_Productions

Quote from: Jaeger on April 13, 2021, 01:35:21 PM
Same with Vampire/WoD. So what do the IP holders do when the 20th anniversary release is relatively successful?

Heaven forbid they give the customer base what it wants with a updated and streamlined version of Vampire the Masquerade where the known system issues are actually addressed. Nooooo! What the fanbase really wants is our new expression of what it means to be a woe is me monster!

ROTFL! Bring back the World of Darkness in a way that the old fans can get behind? Such nonsense! Vampire is a Storytelling Game for snowflake auteurs... Not for the unwashed masses who want to play katanas and trenchcoats!

Like what 5th Edition did to Vampire. I shudder to think what White Wolf is gonna do to Werewolf, my favorite line.

horsesoldier

Quote from: Renegade_Productions on April 13, 2021, 05:55:30 PM
Quote from: Jaeger on April 13, 2021, 01:35:21 PM
Same with Vampire/WoD. So what do the IP holders do when the 20th anniversary release is relatively successful?

Heaven forbid they give the customer base what it wants with a updated and streamlined version of Vampire the Masquerade where the known system issues are actually addressed. Nooooo! What the fanbase really wants is our new expression of what it means to be a woe is me monster!

ROTFL! Bring back the World of Darkness in a way that the old fans can get behind? Such nonsense! Vampire is a Storytelling Game for snowflake auteurs... Not for the unwashed masses who want to play katanas and trenchcoats!

Like what 5th Edition did to Vampire. I shudder to think what White Wolf is gonna do to Werewolf, my favorite line.

License the IP to a reputable game company for them to produce, thus giving long term fans an edition they enjoy and allowing new gamers to become fans?

Renegade_Productions

Quote from: horsesoldier on April 14, 2021, 09:07:05 AM
Quote from: Renegade_Productions on April 13, 2021, 05:55:30 PM
Quote from: Jaeger on April 13, 2021, 01:35:21 PM
Same with Vampire/WoD. So what do the IP holders do when the 20th anniversary release is relatively successful?

Heaven forbid they give the customer base what it wants with a updated and streamlined version of Vampire the Masquerade where the known system issues are actually addressed. Nooooo! What the fanbase really wants is our new expression of what it means to be a woe is me monster!

ROTFL! Bring back the World of Darkness in a way that the old fans can get behind? Such nonsense! Vampire is a Storytelling Game for snowflake auteurs... Not for the unwashed masses who want to play katanas and trenchcoats!

Like what 5th Edition did to Vampire. I shudder to think what White Wolf is gonna do to Werewolf, my favorite line.

License the IP to a reputable game company for them to produce, thus giving long term fans an edition they enjoy and allowing new gamers to become fans?

That's like asking Bethesda to give the Fallout IP to pre-2012 Obsidian, or Blizzard to stop sucking up to China. Honestly, I'm satisfied with sticking to W20/1st Edition Forsaken and going no later than either.

Chris24601

Quote from: Renegade_Productions on April 14, 2021, 02:12:16 PM
That's like asking Bethesda to give the Fallout IP to pre-2012 Obsidian, or Blizzard to stop sucking up to China. Honestly, I'm satisfied with sticking to W20/1st Edition Forsaken and going no later than either.
Yeah, it wasn't hard to snag the few good ideas out of V5 and reverse engineer them onto V20.

The only good bits from my perspective being;
- a more consistent attribute spread (just as the CoD power, precision and resistance were superior).

- making Generation a trade off instead of something you spend background points on (as written, 5 points for 8th Gen is a power gamer's wet dream and literally the best investment you'll ever make in your PC)

- Banes (with severity based on generation) vs. the V20 clan weaknesses.

A few of the individual discipline powers were also better implementations of prior ones, but as a whole, V5 was hot garbage with a "One True Wayist" design instead of the toolkit of prior editions.

Honestly, it wouldn't even be hard to snag the few good bits off of CoD, V5 and the chassis of V20, slap a new mythology (with different bloodlines in place of clans) on top and have a functional system free and clear of the woke corporate drama.

That said, as I shared with BoxCrayonTales in his hacking the Storyteller system thread over in design and development, I don't think playing the monster (particularly the emo VtM variety) is particularly in line with the zeitgeist (nor is Hollywood which is why their woke garbage keeps failing). When times get tough, people don't feel sympathy for the predators (which worked during the halcyon days of the 90s when our teens had to invent traumas because their lives were so good compared to the past)... they want heroes who stop the predators.

So the real game to make in the present age would be a "Hunters of the Damned" type setting where playing someone suffering under the curse of vampirism or lycanthropy are optional types of hunters, but the gist would be taking the fight to the monsters (who stand as proxies for the crony multinationals who rape the middle and lower classes with the blessings of a bought off government, the eco-terrorists preaching genocide and dragging the survivors back to the stone age to 'save the planet' and the Satanic anti-Western racists who think tearing down civilization will somehow create a utopia... or basically a game where the White Wolf versions of vampires, werewolves and witches/mages are again the bad guys).

GeekyBugle

Quote from: Chris24601 on April 14, 2021, 03:30:29 PM
Quote from: Renegade_Productions on April 14, 2021, 02:12:16 PM
That's like asking Bethesda to give the Fallout IP to pre-2012 Obsidian, or Blizzard to stop sucking up to China. Honestly, I'm satisfied with sticking to W20/1st Edition Forsaken and going no later than either.
Yeah, it wasn't hard to snag the few good ideas out of V5 and reverse engineer them onto V20.

The only good bits from my perspective being;
- a more consistent attribute spread (just as the CoD power, precision and resistance were superior).

- making Generation a trade off instead of something you spend background points on (as written, 5 points for 8th Gen is a power gamer's wet dream and literally the best investment you'll ever make in your PC)

- Banes (with severity based on generation) vs. the V20 clan weaknesses.

A few of the individual discipline powers were also better implementations of prior ones, but as a whole, V5 was hot garbage with a "One True Wayist" design instead of the toolkit of prior editions.

Honestly, it wouldn't even be hard to snag the few good bits off of CoD, V5 and the chassis of V20, slap a new mythology (with different bloodlines in place of clans) on top and have a functional system free and clear of the woke corporate drama.

That said, as I shared with BoxCrayonTales in his hacking the Storyteller system thread over in design and development, I don't think playing the monster (particularly the emo VtM variety) is particularly in line with the zeitgeist (nor is Hollywood which is why their woke garbage keeps failing). When times get tough, people don't feel sympathy for the predators (which worked during the halcyon days of the 90s when our teens had to invent traumas because their lives were so good compared to the past)... they want heroes who stop the predators.

So the real game to make in the present age would be a "Hunters of the Damned" type setting where playing someone suffering under the curse of vampirism or lycanthropy are optional types of hunters, but the gist would be taking the fight to the monsters (who stand as proxies for the crony multinationals who rape the middle and lower classes with the blessings of a bought off government, the eco-terrorists preaching genocide and dragging the survivors back to the stone age to 'save the planet' and the Satanic anti-Western racists who think tearing down civilization will somehow create a utopia... or basically a game where the White Wolf versions of vampires, werewolves and witches/mages are again the bad guys).

What underlying system would you use? Take in mind I never played anything from the Vampire line, so if it's their system you'd need to specify the mechanics.

I'm asking because I have in the backburner such a game, with OSR chasis.

And indeed you could play a "good" monster, but only in sofar the PC works to protect humans and against it's own kind.

I haven't figured a way to have a good vampire tho, best thing I have managed is a Damphir, postulating they can drink blood other than human while full vampires can't.

Weres are much easier, you manage to retain your human mind, thus only those who were already monsters or on the road to becoming one (prior to being bitten), or those who loose their human mind to the wolf become predators, granted, the percentage of those who manage not to become monsters is tiny (in my setting) IIRC about 5%.

Witches are born, the female is 99% of the time the one with powers, males with powers are 85% of the time dead before puberty, those who survive are 95% of the time way weaker than the females. They are divided between white and black witches, strong witchcraft requires sacrifice and or pain, this means blood, torture, killing. White witches are usually weaker than black ones because of the nature of witchcraft and are often used as sacrifice by the black witches to harvest their power. A white witch doesn't need to be defensless tho, it all depends on the creativity of the player to justify the increase in power of a spell without torturing/killing someone.

Not sure about including Wizards as a different beast because I haven't figured out how to do so yet.

Then there's the Fey, those are like the brothers grimm portrayed, they eat children, pets, etc.

Other monsters include the Wendigo, and other cryptids appropriate for the setting, or changed to fit it.
Quote from: Rhedyn

Here is why this forum tends to be so stupid. Many people here think Joe Biden is "The Left", when he is actually Far Right and every US republican is just an idiot.

"During times of universal deceit, telling the truth becomes a revolutionary act."

― George Orwell

Renegade_Productions

#50
Quote from: Chris24601 on April 14, 2021, 03:30:29 PM
Quote from: Renegade_Productions on April 14, 2021, 02:12:16 PM
That's like asking Bethesda to give the Fallout IP to pre-2012 Obsidian, or Blizzard to stop sucking up to China. Honestly, I'm satisfied with sticking to W20/1st Edition Forsaken and going no later than either.
Yeah, it wasn't hard to snag the few good ideas out of V5 and reverse engineer them onto V20.

The only good bits from my perspective being;
- a more consistent attribute spread (just as the CoD power, precision and resistance were superior).

- making Generation a trade off instead of something you spend background points on (as written, 5 points for 8th Gen is a power gamer's wet dream and literally the best investment you'll ever make in your PC)

- Banes (with severity based on generation) vs. the V20 clan weaknesses.

A few of the individual discipline powers were also better implementations of prior ones, but as a whole, V5 was hot garbage with a "One True Wayist" design instead of the toolkit of prior editions.

Honestly, it wouldn't even be hard to snag the few good bits off of CoD, V5 and the chassis of V20, slap a new mythology (with different bloodlines in place of clans) on top and have a functional system free and clear of the woke corporate drama.

Oh, yes. I so want that gone, more so now with everything I've seen out of V5 and Forsaken 2nd. Gag me.

(Might as well say here though that I am attempting just that myself; I'm more than happy to make a post here with what I have if there's any interest in playtesting.)

QuoteThat said, as I shared with BoxCrayonTales in his hacking the Storyteller system thread over in design and development, I don't think playing the monster (particularly the emo VtM variety) is particularly in line with the zeitgeist (nor is Hollywood which is why their woke garbage keeps failing). When times get tough, people don't feel sympathy for the predators (which worked during the halcyon days of the 90s when our teens had to invent traumas because their lives were so good compared to the past)... they want heroes who stop the predators.

So the real game to make in the present age would be a "Hunters of the Damned" type setting where playing someone suffering under the curse of vampirism or lycanthropy are optional types of hunters, but the gist would be taking the fight to the monsters (who stand as proxies for the crony multinationals who rape the middle and lower classes with the blessings of a bought off government, the eco-terrorists preaching genocide and dragging the survivors back to the stone age to 'save the planet' and the Satanic anti-Western racists who think tearing down civilization will somehow create a utopia... or basically a game where the White Wolf versions of vampires, werewolves and witches/mages are again the bad guys).

I saw his post pretty much when I registered, and it's a noble idea. As is playing Hunters who are taking the fight back to the evils in the darkness, or the more open monsters we're seeing now.

Chris24601

Quote from: GeekyBugle on April 14, 2021, 03:49:10 PM
What underlying system would you use? Take in mind I never played anything from the Vampire line, so if it's their system you'd need to specify the mechanics.
For base mechanics, the easiest thing to rip-off would be the Chronicles of Darkness LARP rules that replaced the dice pools with a 1d10+attribute+ability vs. a target number (normally 10 for the LARP, but you make that moderate difficulty and add lower and higher and opposed checks to reflect difficulty).

It'd be pretty easy to adjust from that to a d20-based mechanical system. World of Darkness was the antithesis of random stat generation and always featured a unified task resolution system though so I don't know how well it'd fly with the fans left behind by the wok-ist V5 if you bolted it to an OSR chassis though. Being able to tailor precisely the character you want is a big part of the appeal.

To save some typing I'm also going to drop some quotes of myself and you can click through to reach more of it in the relevant thread if desired.

Quote from: Chris24601 on March 20, 2021, 03:23:10 PM
So here's the gist of it, each lineage of vampire is a bloodthirsty tyrant from history (Vlad Tepes, Rasputin, Caligula, etc.) who made a deal with the Devil for supernatural power and immortality. The thirst for blood and specific strengths and weaknesses that distinguish each lineage are the result of the specific pact made by the line's progenitor. These are akin to VtM's Antediluvians; beings of great power and the founders of their lines who, unlike their descendants, chose their damnation. Others can be infected by the vampire unwillingly, but can be restored by completely rejecting their sins.

Which is the next part of the lore, each of a vampire's strengths and weaknesses are defined by the seven deadly sins (ex. Wrath has vampiric abilities related to physical prowess and the weakness of a terrible temper, Lust has abilities related to mesmerizing and seducing victims and a weakness of obsession with beautiful mortals, etc.).

In terms of game mechanics, the Sins would be akin to VtMs Disciplines. The stronger their allegiance to a given sin, the greater their ability with its powers and the stronger the weakness becomes). The more that sin is rejected, the weaker the power, but also the lesser the weakness... and if you can reject all of them completely you can even become mortal again.

As part of this world, I'd define witchcraft/sorcery and lycanthropy as linked to two particular sins since, in general myths, the lines between vampire, witch and werewolf are thin to nonexistent. Similarly, pacts with the Devil imply the existence of evil spirits/demons and, as an easy step, ghosts.

The counter source of power would be rare mortals who embody the Virtues. These are the most dangerous of the vampire hunters.

So there's your basic setup; vampires, werewolves, witches/sorcerers, ghosts, demons and miracle workers... ancient and powerful progenitors of differing lineages who pursue their agendas in the shadows of the modern* world. A "World of Darkness" without referencing the White Wolf version at all.

* or if you want a little of that Technocrat flavor, set it in the near future with mega-corps and advanced military-industrial tech as part of the setting, but instead of being "magic" it's just so expensive/experimental that only select individuals have access to it and those with access to it aren't interested in "defining reality" except in the sense of "if we can figure out the science behind immortality we can make a fortune" and "we need to kill these monsters because they pose a threat to our bottom line."

Quote from: Chris24601 on March 22, 2021, 01:16:42 AM
It was a different time.

In the early 90's the West was still riding high off the Reagan years, the fall of the Soviet Union and military success in the First Iraq War. Bill Clinton was elected promising to govern from the center left with the House and Senate flipping Republican in 1994 so it felt like there was a safe balance in government. In short, it felt like times were good and the future generally looked bright so it was safe to look to darker and more dystopian faire in our entertainment; especially by the youth of the day who had so little real stress they had to invent issues to be traumatized by.

In short, the 90's was the perfect time to rebel by embracing the gothic punk ethos of VtM because despite the dark themes, times felt safe enough to embrace the fake danger of pretending to be a vampire.

Not so today... the nation is divided, the economy in many places gutted, COVID, etc. combine to create a very uncertain world where people don't need to turn to fiction to get their share of angst... instead they're looking for an escape; a hope spot in an otherwise bleak period. These are the times that people turn to entertainment that offers up escapism and fantasy with heroes fighting for a better world.

Its no accident that, beyond just good production values, the Lord of the Rings exploded in 2001, just months after 9/11. People were looking for an escape from the bleakness of the most terrible attack on our homeland we'd ever experienced and here was a tale about goodness, courage and honor in the face of adversity.

Basically, the present day is a horrible environment to be selling cynical dystopian themed faire about monsters exploiting hapless mortals... too many identify with the hapless mortals and no longer sympathize with the monsters' "trauma" that justifies their parasitic existence.

The zeitgeist of the age is big damned heroes like D&D has always tried to cater to... and in terms of urban fantasy its the common man hunter rising up to destroy the monsters who prey on us... and not in the grim and gritty anyone can die themes of WoD titles like Hunters Hunted; Big damn hunters like Sam and Dean Winchester, Buffy (or the CW's present equivalent, Hope Mikaelson on Legacies, a spin-off leaning hard on heroic tropes and characters who do the right thing even when it sucks for them compared to the villain protagonist approach of the earlier entries in that franchise... because the writers understand times have changed).

Basically, we're not in an age when non-woke audiences want to root for monstrous monsters. The genre Paradox is pursuing is dying because there's more than enough nihilism in the real world. People don't want mechanics that make you a monster. If you want to unseat them you need to forget making vampires who fight a losing battle to hold onto their humanity and give us Angel, Alucard from Castlevania or the generally heroic vampires, werewolves and witches of the Salvitore School who protect humanity from monsters.

In short, the zeitgeist of the day isn't "Vampire"... its "Vampire Hunter" where the vampires and others that go bump in the night embody rich, powerful and corrupt who casually inflict suffering on the populace for their own gain and the Hunters efforts are not in vain and doomed to accomplish nothing in the long run.

Until you abandon the core premise that the goal should be playing a monstrous monster vs. one trying to redeem themselves (and with hope of actually doing so... which is where Hunter the Reckoning fell down as its power was tied to increasing insanity before dying in a blaze of glory that won't make a long term difference) you'll never unseat Paradox/White Wolf because they're so much better established in the niche of "its okay to be a monster."

At least that's my take on why no one's been able to unseat them. Its fundamentally because no one's really tried to produce the right weapon to do it.

Quote from: Chris24601 on March 22, 2021, 04:47:56 PM
The desire to have some sort of connective tissue between the various supernaturals is why I leaned hard into Vampires, Werewolves and Witches (as distinct from general spellcasters) all receiving their powers from ancient deals with the Devil, with demonic spirits and lost souls/ghosts/fae (if you go by the oldest sources the fairies were basically a particular category of long dead ghosts) as natural extensions and angels/divine gifts/theurgy as a logical heroic counterpoints.

I could also see adding Dhampirs of the half-mortal variety to the mix under the general principle of "God turns the schemes of Devil to His ends" in that the children of vampires are granted special gifts to hunt them.

By the same token you could have "Merlins" (by lore a half-demon whose mother baptized him as an infant so that he would not become the Antichrist) as essentially "redeemed witches."

Something along the lines of "The Knights of Saint Christopher" from the Netflix series "The Order" might be a way to have a more heroic werewolf... basically mortals who take up a portion of the werewolf curse by wearing the skins of slain werewolves (maybe the heroic variety would then be called "skin-changers" vs. the monstrous "werewolves").

Throw in "wonderworkers" as those who wield outright divine gifts against evil and "survivors" as mere mortals who hunt the monsters anyway and you'd have 5-ish categories to build around "Dhampirs, Merlins, Skinchangers, Wonderworkers and Survivors."

Quote from: Chris24601 on March 24, 2021, 12:36:32 PM
Another random thought about my "all the monster progenitors made deals with the Devil" angle... if you wanted to tweak WW's nose a bit; you could include Cain as one of them, but with the twist that he's just one of many progenitors and no stronger than Dracula (and probably weaker, what's one murder in the heat of the moment compared to the systematic slaughter inflicted by Vlad Tepes?).

This could also be used to highlight that the strength of a given monster isn't its age, but the degree it embraces the powers of Hell.

GeekyBugle

Quote from: Chris24601 on April 14, 2021, 06:35:44 PM
Quote from: GeekyBugle on April 14, 2021, 03:49:10 PM
What underlying system would you use? Take in mind I never played anything from the Vampire line, so if it's their system you'd need to specify the mechanics.
For base mechanics, the easiest thing to rip-off would be the Chronicles of Darkness LARP rules that replaced the dice pools with a 1d10+attribute+ability vs. a target number (normally 10 for the LARP, but you make that moderate difficulty and add lower and higher and opposed checks to reflect difficulty).

It'd be pretty easy to adjust from that to a d20-based mechanical system. World of Darkness was the antithesis of random stat generation and always featured a unified task resolution system though so I don't know how well it'd fly with the fans left behind by the wok-ist V5 if you bolted it to an OSR chassis though. Being able to tailor precisely the character you want is a big part of the appeal.

Well, choosing not to use the random stat generation can't be that hard. Lets say you get a number of points to adjudicate as you choose to each stat. Sure, it's not OSR, but in a same game you could do it that way just like ppl choose to use 4d6 drop lowest arrange to taste.

If that's the best argument against using an OSR chasis I don't see how it's a problem.

Also, who said anything about getting the WoD fans to drop that and play mine? I guess that is almost never going to happen, they will:

a) Stick to whatever older version they like and maybe houserule some mechanics they like from newer versions.

or

b) Keep buying whatever crap the publisher puts out, complain and do nothing else.

And those who choose to switch to another game will be a very small % of the total.
Quote from: Rhedyn

Here is why this forum tends to be so stupid. Many people here think Joe Biden is "The Left", when he is actually Far Right and every US republican is just an idiot.

"During times of universal deceit, telling the truth becomes a revolutionary act."

― George Orwell

Renegade_Productions

Quote from: GeekyBugle on April 14, 2021, 06:48:24 PM

Well, choosing not to use the random stat generation can't be that hard. Lets say you get a number of points to adjudicate as you choose to each stat. Sure, it's not OSR, but in a same game you could do it that way just like ppl choose to use 4d6 drop lowest arrange to taste.

If that's the best argument against using an OSR chasis I don't see how it's a problem.

Also, who said anything about getting the WoD fans to drop that and play mine? I guess that is almost never going to happen, they will:

a) Stick to whatever older version they like and maybe houserule some mechanics they like from newer versions.

or

b) Keep buying whatever crap the publisher puts out, complain and do nothing else.

And those who choose to switch to another game will be a very small % of the total.

The eternal paradox of wanting to make stuff that gets away from the wokeness that is infesting the things we like.

Personally, I would be less interested in attracting the WoD players over getting OSR or other players to try the system out. Good word of mouth from them could turn WoD fans to what others are making, and if the system is enough of a toolbox, what's to stop them from taking what they liked about a WoD line like Werewolf and bringing a few things over to the new system?

White Wolf even encouraged it with a conversion kit once NWoD came out, and homebrews are still fair game.

GeekyBugle

Quote from: Renegade_Productions on April 14, 2021, 06:55:08 PM
Quote from: GeekyBugle on April 14, 2021, 06:48:24 PM

Well, choosing not to use the random stat generation can't be that hard. Lets say you get a number of points to adjudicate as you choose to each stat. Sure, it's not OSR, but in a same game you could do it that way just like ppl choose to use 4d6 drop lowest arrange to taste.

If that's the best argument against using an OSR chasis I don't see how it's a problem.

Also, who said anything about getting the WoD fans to drop that and play mine? I guess that is almost never going to happen, they will:

a) Stick to whatever older version they like and maybe houserule some mechanics they like from newer versions.

or

b) Keep buying whatever crap the publisher puts out, complain and do nothing else.

And those who choose to switch to another game will be a very small % of the total.

The eternal paradox of wanting to make stuff that gets away from the wokeness that is infesting the things we like.

Personally, I would be less interested in attracting the WoD players over getting OSR or other players to try the system out. Good word of mouth from them could turn WoD fans to what others are making, and if the system is enough of a toolbox, what's to stop them from taking what they liked about a WoD line like Werewolf and bringing a few things over to the new system?

White Wolf even encouraged it with a conversion kit once NWoD came out, and homebrews are still fair game.

100% Agreed, An OSR game already has a target demographic: People that like to play OSR games.

If WoD fans want to try it by all means, I want as many people playing my games as possible, but my game is not going to be a WoD clone, because who has the time to clone it and make sure you don't get into legal trouble?
Quote from: Rhedyn

Here is why this forum tends to be so stupid. Many people here think Joe Biden is "The Left", when he is actually Far Right and every US republican is just an idiot.

"During times of universal deceit, telling the truth becomes a revolutionary act."

― George Orwell

Renegade_Productions

Quote from: GeekyBugle on April 14, 2021, 07:02:29 PM

100% Agreed, An OSR game already has a target demographic: People that like to play OSR games.

If WoD fans want to try it by all means, I want as many people playing my games as possible, but my game is not going to be a WoD clone, because who has the time to clone it and make sure you don't get into legal trouble?

I believe you can make similar systems, just not use any lore or specific sets of words associated with an existing system.

Case in point: SPECIAL and CLASSIC

SPECIAL is the Fallout system of Attributes.
CLASSIC is the Wasteland 2 system.

Similar ideas, and they function similarly, but Bethesda has no grounds on which to legally come after InXile for the idea because it's a system and doesn't reference any Fallout lore or specific names.

GeekyBugle

Quote from: Renegade_Productions on April 14, 2021, 07:11:56 PM
Quote from: GeekyBugle on April 14, 2021, 07:02:29 PM

100% Agreed, An OSR game already has a target demographic: People that like to play OSR games.

If WoD fans want to try it by all means, I want as many people playing my games as possible, but my game is not going to be a WoD clone, because who has the time to clone it and make sure you don't get into legal trouble?

I believe you can make similar systems, just not use any lore or specific sets of words associated with an existing system.

Case in point: SPECIAL and CLASSIC

SPECIAL is the Fallout system of Attributes.
CLASSIC is the Wasteland 2 system.

Similar ideas, and they function similarly, but Bethesda has no grounds on which to legally come after InXile for the idea because it's a system and doesn't reference any Fallout lore or specific names.

Yeah, but a clone goes beyond the system, it needs a very similar lore, I don't have the time to neither clone the system much less try and make a setting simmilar enough but distinct enough to avoid legal issues.

I'm sticking with the system I know and love, hacking it to make a different game.
Quote from: Rhedyn

Here is why this forum tends to be so stupid. Many people here think Joe Biden is "The Left", when he is actually Far Right and every US republican is just an idiot.

"During times of universal deceit, telling the truth becomes a revolutionary act."

― George Orwell

Renegade_Productions

Quote from: GeekyBugle on April 14, 2021, 07:32:28 PMYeah, but a clone goes beyond the system, it needs a very similar lore, I don't have the time to neither clone the system much less try and make a setting simmilar enough but distinct enough to avoid legal issues.

I'm sticking with the system I know and love, hacking it to make a different game.

Fair enough. Can't blame you, either.

Jaeger

Quote from: horsesoldier on April 14, 2021, 09:07:05 AM
...
License the IP to a reputable game company for them to produce, thus giving long term fans an edition they enjoy and allowing new gamers to become fans?

A 50/50 toss up.

Look at Cubicle 7. Regarded as a reputable company, yet look what they went and did with WHFRP 4e...
"The envious are not satisfied with equality; they secretly yearn for superiority and revenge."

Charon's Little Helper

Quote from: horsesoldier on April 14, 2021, 09:07:05 AM
License the IP to a reputable game company for them to produce, thus giving long term fans an edition they enjoy and allowing new gamers to become fans?

To be fair, from a business standpoint they probably have to change enough to justify people buying the new edition rather than using the old one.

I'm not saying that I'm a fan of the changes they did make - but I can definitely see why they would need to make changes.