Greetings!

I have several women players that have asked me, "What do Norse women smell like, Mr. Historian?" and shrieking at me, "We don't have to smell like goat, do we?"

I'm familiar with the perfumes and cosmetics of Egypt, ancient Persia, and the ancient Greeks and Romans. Of course, the Greeks and Romans traded with and were influenced a great deal by Egypt and Persia.

Seeing that these women in one of my groups are playing Norse-flavoured characters, they are curious as to what kind of scents or perfumes that Norse women anointed themselves with--and also, what kind of cosmetics did they use, if any?

I know that the Norse folks valued cleanliness and bathed regularly, especially favouring natural hot-springs, routinely groomed their beards and hair, and kept their clothes washed fairly often--but as to what kind of cosmetics their women adorned themselves with, or what scents and perfumes they may have used on themselves--so they didn't smell like goat--I am not so certain about.

The men of course, don't tend to care about such details much, but the women however do. They are keenly interested. So, I thought I would bring the topic up to you all here.

Semper Fidelis,

SHARK

Poking around on the Internet, there's... not a whole lot of information. Facial cosmetics weren't unheard of. Perfumes, though, I'm not so certain. Your women players may have to settle for smelling like soap, although I suppose cut flowers or herbs in the soap could be used to add scents.

(speaking as a GM, if one or more players wants to try something mildly anachronistic, I say let 'em. This ain't a historical reenactment.)

Regular, even daily, bathing was pretty common throughout the ancient and Medieval period (the only thing the Church objected to was mixed sex bathing). The notion of dirty smelly peasants/barbarians dressed in drab ragged clothing was largely a Victorian-era invention to basically puff up the present age as far superior to the past.

For commoners, water and soaps would be scented using local flora, so figure out the local flowers and fruits in the area and those would be the local scents.

Likewise, as was previously mentioned, Germanic and Norse peoples, even the common folk, kept their hair clean and styled and braided. They also wore bright colored clothing that they washed regularly. They brushed their teeth using various "tooth powders" and "chewing sticks" (twigs with their ends shredded to create a brush-like structure).

The only thing they would explicitly lack are the modern chemical preservatives and the like that keep the organic compounds from spoiling as quickly so the various fragrances, soaps and powders would be produced regularly by members of the community rather than something you'd be able to buy a year's supply of and just keep on a shelf.

As for smell, the first thing to note is that everything will smell of smoke. The ventilation in the longhouses isn't great, and they have fires going constantly. So that's going to overpower any sort of subtle fragrances.

The vikings were clean and bathed daily, and their soaps probably would have used local aromatic plants. But still, they're living in a dark smoky longhouse that is a working farm, with many animals kept indoors. Even the nobles are active farmers. The women would smell of smoke and the kitchen more than of goat, but in general, it's a farm.

Apparently both men and women used make-up, at least around the eyes. Ibrahim Al-Tartushi was an Arabian traveller who happened to live among the Vikings in Hedeby around 900AD. He wrote in his records about his meeting with the Vikings that:

QuoteThere is also an artificial make-up for the eyes when they use it, beauty never fades, on the contrary, it increases in men and women as well.

Source: https://bavipower.com/blogs/bavipower-viking-blog/was-viking-eyeliner-historically-accurate

However, the eye make-up had a practical function as well, as in how sports players blacken under their eyes against sun glare.

Like wild honey, juniper, and crushed yarrow.

If you do the Viking era ride at the Jorvik Centre in York, the smells are famously part of the experience. Variously described as "nauseating" and "indescribable. " Lets just say, not a whole lot of perfume going on.

Jhkim is right, in a longhouse, people and clothes are going to smell mostly of smoke, and the steam from whatever stew/soup is cooking on the hearth. Maybe a bit of wet wool/sheep, especially in winter when people and animals are sharing the space. You can wash all you like, you can make rosewater out of wild rosehips and try splashing it on, but it's not going to cut the smell of smoke, soup and housemates.

EDITED TO ADD: they weren't doing this when I was there years ago, but the Jorvik Centre is now apparently bottling and selling eight of their famous Viking smells. "Incense" might not be too bad. "Cesspit" may be one to avoid.

Quote from: Zirunel on November 02, 2020, 01:40:44 PM
Jhkim is right, in a longhouse, people and clothes are going to smell mostly of smoke, and the steam from whatever stew/soup is cooking on the hearth. Maybe a bit of wet wool/sheep, especially in winter when people and animals are sharing the space. You can wash all you like, you can make rosewater out of wild rosehips and try splashing it on, but it's not going to cut the smell of smoke, soup and housemates.

Nah. Having lived outdoors for weeks at a time with fires, wool clothing, and camp-mates, bathing in the lake or ocean with no soap or fragrance-free soap, I have to disagree. You get acclimatized to smells like smoke and dirt. And you get hypersensitive to unusual smells to the point were you can smell the flowers in the meadow across the lake when the wind blows the right way.

Sure a cesspit is going to reek. Or transport a viking to modern times and his odor will be very noticeable. But...actually living there would be a different story.

Quote from: Ghostmaker on November 02, 2020, 08:57:33 AM
Poking around on the Internet, there's... not a whole lot of information. Facial cosmetics weren't unheard of. Perfumes, though, I'm not so certain. Your women players may have to settle for smelling like soap, although I suppose cut flowers or herbs in the soap could be used to add scents.

(speaking as a GM, if one or more players wants to try something mildly anachronistic, I say let 'em. This ain't a historical reenactment.)

Greetings!

*Laughing* Indeed, my friend, I was tempted to just say, "Yeah, girls. You have soap, and scented oils and what not made from raspberries, mint leaves, and vanilla. No worries!"

Semper Fidelis,

SHARK

Salted Herring. Both the Swedes and the Finns. The Norse Germans I knew didn't have any particularly strong smells, some smelled like lightly salted pork, some smelled like Coffee, or Mocha, and some smelled like Raspberries, and Blackberries.  I don't know of any Norse women that smell like Goats, but I do know of some Arab women that definitely smelled like goats, and a few that smelled like Camels as well.

I had a girlfriend from Hawaii once. She smelled and tasted like the Pacific Ocean.

Quote from: Chris24601 on November 02, 2020, 10:10:18 AM
Regular, even daily, bathing was pretty common throughout the ancient and Medieval period (the only thing the Church objected to was mixed sex bathing). The notion of dirty smelly peasants/barbarians dressed in drab ragged clothing was largely a Victorian-era invention to basically puff up the present age as far superior to the past.

For commoners, water and soaps would be scented using local flora, so figure out the local flowers and fruits in the area and those would be the local scents.

Likewise, as was previously mentioned, Germanic and Norse peoples, even the common folk, kept their hair clean and styled and braided. They also wore bright colored clothing that they washed regularly. They brushed their teeth using various "tooth powders" and "chewing sticks" (twigs with their ends shredded to create a brush-like structure).

The only thing they would explicitly lack are the modern chemical preservatives and the like that keep the organic compounds from spoiling as quickly so the various fragrances, soaps and powders would be produced regularly by members of the community rather than something you'd be able to buy a year's supply of and just keep on a shelf.

Greetings!

Very true, Chris! They'd have to make soaps and stuff fresh! None of that sitting around for months at a time!

Tooth powders and chewing sticks, huh? Nice! I like that!

Semper Fidelis,

SHARK

Quote from: jhkim on November 02, 2020, 11:52:14 AM
As for smell, the first thing to note is that everything will smell of smoke. The ventilation in the longhouses isn't great, and they have fires going constantly. So that's going to overpower any sort of subtle fragrances.

The vikings were clean and bathed daily, and their soaps probably would have used local aromatic plants. But still, they're living in a dark smoky longhouse that is a working farm, with many animals kept indoors. Even the nobles are active farmers. The women would smell of smoke and the kitchen more than of goat, but in general, it's a farm.

Apparently both men and women used make-up, at least around the eyes. Ibrahim Al-Tartushi was an Arabian traveller who happened to live among the Vikings in Hedeby around 900AD. He wrote in his records about his meeting with the Vikings that:

QuoteThere is also an artificial make-up for the eyes when they use it, beauty never fades, on the contrary, it increases in men and women as well.

Source: https://bavipower.com/blogs/bavipower-viking-blog/was-viking-eyeliner-historically-accurate

However, the eye make-up had a practical function as well, as in how sports players blacken under their eyes against sun glare.

Greetings!

Good points there, Jhkim! Lots of smoke and animal scents. The make up for the eyes...very interesting, Jhkim! I can imagine that, too. That's cool stuff!

Semper Fidelis,

SHARK

Quote from: rytrasmi on November 02, 2020, 02:35:48 PM

Quote from: Zirunel on November 02, 2020, 01:40:44 PM
Jhkim is right, in a longhouse, people and clothes are going to smell mostly of smoke, and the steam from whatever stew/soup is cooking on the hearth. Maybe a bit of wet wool/sheep, especially in winter when people and animals are sharing the space. You can wash all you like, you can make rosewater out of wild rosehips and try splashing it on, but it's not going to cut the smell of smoke, soup and housemates.

Nah. Having lived outdoors for weeks at a time with fires, wool clothing, and camp-mates, bathing in the lake or ocean with no soap or fragrance-free soap, I have to disagree. You get acclimatized to smells like smoke and dirt. And you get hypersensitive to unusual smells to the point were you can smell the flowers in the meadow across the lake when the wind blows the right way.

Sure a cesspit is going to reek. Or transport a viking to modern times and his odor will be very noticeable. But...actually living there would be a different story.

I've lived under canvas for weeks at a time too, but I'm not sure we disagree. What you actually  smell like and what you are acclimatized to are two different things.

So to turn it back to SHARK's question, I guess the answer is "yes dear, you smell like goat. But no one's gonna notice"

Quote from: Zirunel on November 02, 2020, 02:57:26 PMI've lived under canvas for weeks at a time too, but I'm not sure we disagree. What you actually  smell like and what you are acclimatized to are two different things.

So to turn it back to SHARK's question, I guess the answer is "yes dear, you smell like goat. But no one's gonna notice"

Well, when it comes to Nordic women, they are really big on Sauna's, and doing a Sauna get a hot hot bath with soap and steamy water, combined with a dip into a frigid ice covered lake for a few minutes, and then, when all that is done, you get into the steamroom or Sauna and then bake the artic freeze right out of your bones, usually for more than an hour. The result is one comes out super clean, and free from most smells or odors, at least until one dresses and then toils for a day or two, and then it is back to the Sauna, especially during the winter.

I suppose some smell and taste like Reindeer as well, But I personally haven't travelled in those social circles.

The Vikings were renowned for their cleanliness and good grooming, and there are written complaints from Anglo-Saxons that their womenfolk left them, becuase they found the Vikings, Clean, well-groomed, and Vikings were known for their excellent hygiene. Excavations of Viking sites have turned up tweezers, razors, combs and ear cleaners made from animal bones and antlers. Vikings also bathed at least once a week—much more frequently than other Europeans of their day—and enjoyed dips in natural hot springs.

We also know that the Vikings made a very strong soap which was used not only for bathing, but also for bleaching their hair. Vikings bleached their hair as it seems blond hair was highly valued in the Viking World.

Accounts of Anglo-Saxons  describing the Vikings who attacked and ultimately settled in England suggest the Vikings might be considered to be 'clean-freaks', because they would bathe once a week. This was at a time when an Anglo-Saxon might only bath once or twice a year. In fact the original meaning of Scandinavian words for Saturday (laurdag / lørdag / lördag) was 'Washing Day'.

A later writing often credited to the Abbot of St. Albans reports that "thanks to their habit of combing their hair every day, of bathing every Saturday and regularly changing their clothes, were able to undermine the virtue of married women and even seduce the daughters of nobles to be their mistresses."

Quote from: Zirunel on November 02, 2020, 02:57:26 PM
I've lived under canvas for weeks at a time too, but I'm not sure we disagree. What you actually  smell like and what you are acclimatized to are two different things.

So to turn it back to SHARK's question, I guess the answer is "yes dear, you smell like goat. But no one's gonna notice"

If a norse woman stinks up the forest, but no one there doesn't also stink up the forest, does she make a smell?

Quote from: rytrasmi on November 02, 2020, 03:13:49 PM

Quote from: Zirunel on November 02, 2020, 02:57:26 PM
I've lived under canvas for weeks at a time too, but I'm not sure we disagree. What you actually  smell like and what you are acclimatized to are two different things.

So to turn it back to SHARK's question, I guess the answer is "yes dear, you smell like goat. But no one's gonna notice"

If a norse woman stinks up the forest, but no one there doesn't also stink up the forest, does she make a smell?

Ha! I guess the answer is yes...animals will smell her if she is upwind. And of course, if she leaves the forest and travels to the perfumed "bejeweled empires" part of the setting, people may make pointed comments and whisper "barbarian"