Greetings!
I have several women players that have asked me, "What do Norse women smell like, Mr. Historian?" and shrieking at me, "We don't have to smell like goat, do we?"
I'm familiar with the perfumes and cosmetics of Egypt, ancient Persia, and the ancient Greeks and Romans. Of course, the Greeks and Romans traded with and were influenced a great deal by Egypt and Persia.
Seeing that these women in one of my groups are playing Norse-flavoured characters, they are curious as to what kind of scents or perfumes that Norse women anointed themselves with--and also, what kind of cosmetics did they use, if any?
I know that the Norse folks valued cleanliness and bathed regularly, especially favouring natural hot-springs, routinely groomed their beards and hair, and kept their clothes washed fairly often--but as to what kind of cosmetics their women adorned themselves with, or what scents and perfumes they may have used on themselves--so they didn't smell like goat--I am not so certain about.
The men of course, don't tend to care about such details much, but the women however do. They are keenly interested. So, I thought I would bring the topic up to you all here.
Semper Fidelis,
SHARK
Poking around on the Internet, there's... not a whole lot of information. Facial cosmetics weren't unheard of. Perfumes, though, I'm not so certain. Your women players may have to settle for smelling like soap, although I suppose cut flowers or herbs in the soap could be used to add scents.
(speaking as a GM, if one or more players wants to try something mildly anachronistic, I say let 'em. This ain't a historical reenactment.)
Regular, even daily, bathing was pretty common throughout the ancient and Medieval period (the only thing the Church objected to was mixed sex bathing). The notion of dirty smelly peasants/barbarians dressed in drab ragged clothing was largely a Victorian-era invention to basically puff up the present age as far superior to the past.
For commoners, water and soaps would be scented using local flora, so figure out the local flowers and fruits in the area and those would be the local scents.
Likewise, as was previously mentioned, Germanic and Norse peoples, even the common folk, kept their hair clean and styled and braided. They also wore bright colored clothing that they washed regularly. They brushed their teeth using various "tooth powders" and "chewing sticks" (twigs with their ends shredded to create a brush-like structure).
The only thing they would explicitly lack are the modern chemical preservatives and the like that keep the organic compounds from spoiling as quickly so the various fragrances, soaps and powders would be produced regularly by members of the community rather than something you'd be able to buy a year's supply of and just keep on a shelf.
As for smell, the first thing to note is that everything will smell of smoke. The ventilation in the longhouses isn't great, and they have fires going constantly. So that's going to overpower any sort of subtle fragrances.
The vikings were clean and bathed daily, and their soaps probably would have used local aromatic plants. But still, they're living in a dark smoky longhouse that is a working farm, with many animals kept indoors. Even the nobles are active farmers. The women would smell of smoke and the kitchen more than of goat, but in general, it's a farm.
Apparently both men and women used make-up, at least around the eyes. Ibrahim Al-Tartushi was an Arabian traveller who happened to live among the Vikings in Hedeby around 900AD. He wrote in his records about his meeting with the Vikings that:
QuoteThere is also an artificial make-up for the eyes when they use it, beauty never fades, on the contrary, it increases in men and women as well.
Source: https://bavipower.com/blogs/bavipower-viking-blog/was-viking-eyeliner-historically-accurate
However, the eye make-up had a practical function as well, as in how sports players blacken under their eyes against sun glare.
Like wild honey, juniper, and crushed yarrow.
If you do the Viking era ride at the Jorvik Centre in York, the smells are famously part of the experience. Variously described as "nauseating" and "indescribable. " Lets just say, not a whole lot of perfume going on.
Jhkim is right, in a longhouse, people and clothes are going to smell mostly of smoke, and the steam from whatever stew/soup is cooking on the hearth. Maybe a bit of wet wool/sheep, especially in winter when people and animals are sharing the space. You can wash all you like, you can make rosewater out of wild rosehips and try splashing it on, but it's not going to cut the smell of smoke, soup and housemates.
EDITED TO ADD: they weren't doing this when I was there years ago, but the Jorvik Centre is now apparently bottling and selling eight of their famous Viking smells. "Incense" might not be too bad. "Cesspit" may be one to avoid.
Quote from: Zirunel on November 02, 2020, 01:40:44 PM
Jhkim is right, in a longhouse, people and clothes are going to smell mostly of smoke, and the steam from whatever stew/soup is cooking on the hearth. Maybe a bit of wet wool/sheep, especially in winter when people and animals are sharing the space. You can wash all you like, you can make rosewater out of wild rosehips and try splashing it on, but it's not going to cut the smell of smoke, soup and housemates.
Nah. Having lived outdoors for weeks at a time with fires, wool clothing, and camp-mates, bathing in the lake or ocean with no soap or fragrance-free soap, I have to disagree. You get acclimatized to smells like smoke and dirt. And you get hypersensitive to unusual smells to the point were you can smell the flowers in the meadow across the lake when the wind blows the right way.
Sure a cesspit is going to reek. Or transport a viking to modern times and his odor will be very noticeable. But...actually living there would be a different story.
Quote from: Ghostmaker on November 02, 2020, 08:57:33 AM
Poking around on the Internet, there's... not a whole lot of information. Facial cosmetics weren't unheard of. Perfumes, though, I'm not so certain. Your women players may have to settle for smelling like soap, although I suppose cut flowers or herbs in the soap could be used to add scents.
(speaking as a GM, if one or more players wants to try something mildly anachronistic, I say let 'em. This ain't a historical reenactment.)
Greetings!
*Laughing* Indeed, my friend, I was tempted to just say, "Yeah, girls. You have soap, and scented oils and what not made from raspberries, mint leaves, and vanilla. No worries!" ;D
Semper Fidelis,
SHARK
Salted Herring. Both the Swedes and the Finns. The Norse Germans I knew didn't have any particularly strong smells, some smelled like lightly salted pork, some smelled like Coffee, or Mocha, and some smelled like Raspberries, and Blackberries. I don't know of any Norse women that smell like Goats, but I do know of some Arab women that definitely smelled like goats, and a few that smelled like Camels as well.
I had a girlfriend from Hawaii once. She smelled and tasted like the Pacific Ocean.
Quote from: Chris24601 on November 02, 2020, 10:10:18 AM
Regular, even daily, bathing was pretty common throughout the ancient and Medieval period (the only thing the Church objected to was mixed sex bathing). The notion of dirty smelly peasants/barbarians dressed in drab ragged clothing was largely a Victorian-era invention to basically puff up the present age as far superior to the past.
For commoners, water and soaps would be scented using local flora, so figure out the local flowers and fruits in the area and those would be the local scents.
Likewise, as was previously mentioned, Germanic and Norse peoples, even the common folk, kept their hair clean and styled and braided. They also wore bright colored clothing that they washed regularly. They brushed their teeth using various "tooth powders" and "chewing sticks" (twigs with their ends shredded to create a brush-like structure).
The only thing they would explicitly lack are the modern chemical preservatives and the like that keep the organic compounds from spoiling as quickly so the various fragrances, soaps and powders would be produced regularly by members of the community rather than something you'd be able to buy a year's supply of and just keep on a shelf.
Greetings!
Very true, Chris! They'd have to make soaps and stuff fresh! None of that sitting around for months at a time!
Tooth powders and chewing sticks, huh? Nice! I like that!
Semper Fidelis,
SHARK
Quote from: jhkim on November 02, 2020, 11:52:14 AM
As for smell, the first thing to note is that everything will smell of smoke. The ventilation in the longhouses isn't great, and they have fires going constantly. So that's going to overpower any sort of subtle fragrances.
The vikings were clean and bathed daily, and their soaps probably would have used local aromatic plants. But still, they're living in a dark smoky longhouse that is a working farm, with many animals kept indoors. Even the nobles are active farmers. The women would smell of smoke and the kitchen more than of goat, but in general, it's a farm.
Apparently both men and women used make-up, at least around the eyes. Ibrahim Al-Tartushi was an Arabian traveller who happened to live among the Vikings in Hedeby around 900AD. He wrote in his records about his meeting with the Vikings that:
QuoteThere is also an artificial make-up for the eyes when they use it, beauty never fades, on the contrary, it increases in men and women as well.
Source: https://bavipower.com/blogs/bavipower-viking-blog/was-viking-eyeliner-historically-accurate
However, the eye make-up had a practical function as well, as in how sports players blacken under their eyes against sun glare.
Greetings!
Good points there, Jhkim! Lots of smoke and animal scents. The make up for the eyes...very interesting, Jhkim! I can imagine that, too. That's cool stuff!
Semper Fidelis,
SHARK
Quote from: rytrasmi on November 02, 2020, 02:35:48 PM
Quote from: Zirunel on November 02, 2020, 01:40:44 PM
Jhkim is right, in a longhouse, people and clothes are going to smell mostly of smoke, and the steam from whatever stew/soup is cooking on the hearth. Maybe a bit of wet wool/sheep, especially in winter when people and animals are sharing the space. You can wash all you like, you can make rosewater out of wild rosehips and try splashing it on, but it's not going to cut the smell of smoke, soup and housemates.
Nah. Having lived outdoors for weeks at a time with fires, wool clothing, and camp-mates, bathing in the lake or ocean with no soap or fragrance-free soap, I have to disagree. You get acclimatized to smells like smoke and dirt. And you get hypersensitive to unusual smells to the point were you can smell the flowers in the meadow across the lake when the wind blows the right way.
Sure a cesspit is going to reek. Or transport a viking to modern times and his odor will be very noticeable. But...actually living there would be a different story.
I've lived under canvas for weeks at a time too, but I'm not sure we disagree. What you actually smell like and what you are acclimatized to are two different things.
So to turn it back to SHARK's question, I guess the answer is "yes dear, you smell like goat. But no one's gonna notice"
Quote from: Zirunel on November 02, 2020, 02:57:26 PMI've lived under canvas for weeks at a time too, but I'm not sure we disagree. What you actually smell like and what you are acclimatized to are two different things.
So to turn it back to SHARK's question, I guess the answer is "yes dear, you smell like goat. But no one's gonna notice"
Well, when it comes to Nordic women, they are really big on Sauna's, and doing a Sauna get a hot hot bath with soap and steamy water, combined with a dip into a frigid ice covered lake for a few minutes, and then, when all that is done, you get into the steamroom or Sauna and then bake the artic freeze right out of your bones, usually for more than an hour. The result is one comes out super clean, and free from most smells or odors, at least until one dresses and then toils for a day or two, and then it is back to the Sauna, especially during the winter.
I suppose some smell and taste like Reindeer as well, But I personally haven't travelled in those social circles.
The Vikings were renowned for their cleanliness and good grooming, and there are written complaints from Anglo-Saxons that their womenfolk left them, becuase they found the Vikings, Clean, well-groomed, and Vikings were known for their excellent hygiene. Excavations of Viking sites have turned up tweezers, razors, combs and ear cleaners made from animal bones and antlers. Vikings also bathed at least once a week—much more frequently than other Europeans of their day—and enjoyed dips in natural hot springs.
We also know that the Vikings made a very strong soap which was used not only for bathing, but also for bleaching their hair. Vikings bleached their hair as it seems blond hair was highly valued in the Viking World.
Accounts of Anglo-Saxons describing the Vikings who attacked and ultimately settled in England suggest the Vikings might be considered to be 'clean-freaks', because they would bathe once a week. This was at a time when an Anglo-Saxon might only bath once or twice a year. In fact the original meaning of Scandinavian words for Saturday (laurdag / lørdag / lördag) was 'Washing Day'.
A later writing often credited to the Abbot of St. Albans reports that "thanks to their habit of combing their hair every day, of bathing every Saturday and regularly changing their clothes, were able to undermine the virtue of married women and even seduce the daughters of nobles to be their mistresses."
Quote from: Zirunel on November 02, 2020, 02:57:26 PM
I've lived under canvas for weeks at a time too, but I'm not sure we disagree. What you actually smell like and what you are acclimatized to are two different things.
So to turn it back to SHARK's question, I guess the answer is "yes dear, you smell like goat. But no one's gonna notice"
If a norse woman stinks up the forest, but no one there doesn't also stink up the forest, does she make a smell?
Quote from: rytrasmi on November 02, 2020, 03:13:49 PM
Quote from: Zirunel on November 02, 2020, 02:57:26 PM
I've lived under canvas for weeks at a time too, but I'm not sure we disagree. What you actually smell like and what you are acclimatized to are two different things.
So to turn it back to SHARK's question, I guess the answer is "yes dear, you smell like goat. But no one's gonna notice"
If a norse woman stinks up the forest, but no one there doesn't also stink up the forest, does she make a smell?
Ha! I guess the answer is yes...animals will smell her if she is upwind. And of course, if she leaves the forest and travels to the perfumed "bejeweled empires" part of the setting, people may make pointed comments and whisper "barbarian"
Various -worts, violets, meadowsweets, verbena (lemony), and berries. Herbs will be dills, sages, anise (alpine)/licorice (marsh)/fennel (marsh, cultivated), chamomile (which has a light hay smell), linden (mildly spiced floral), and ginger (more temperate zones). Musk glands will be present, too, and a valuable trade commodity. Add pine, turpentine, and aging leather for more masculine scents.
Vanilla is New World. Strawberries as a food is New World too, but as a teensy-weensy Arctic Zone berry for fragrance makes sense. However there are plentiful other arctic & temperate berries, many not translated outside Scandinavia, for fragrances.
Due to Slavic trade routes to the Black Sea you get a penchant for cardamom, peppercorns, cinnamon, clove, and more ginger, leaving a notable presence upon their desserts.
Back to PbP work, just got the epic soundtrack down last night! 8)
Do check out Lindybeige's excellent interview with John Rosetti (https://youtu.be/SI6wDO2RhTQ), one of the contestants participants in what is sometimes called "the first Reality Television Show ever" Iron Age Man on the BBC.
He makes one comment that really sticks out to me. When asked about hygene, he explains that they did set up a system whereby everyone got a bath once a week.
When asked if BO was a problem, he simply answered that pretty much everyone smelled like woodsmoke. So most likely people in the ancient and medieval world smelled like woodsmoke and herbal soap. I do think that our ideas of people in the past being filthy are wildly exaggerated by the victorians as mentioned previously.
Quote from: SHARK on November 02, 2020, 08:29:33 AM
Greetings!
I have several women players that have asked me, "What do Norse women smell like, Mr. Historian?" and shrieking at me, "We don't have to smell like goat, do we?"
If they are worried about smelling like goat then I am glad that you did not get on to the feminine hygiene product discussion.
Quote from: GameDaddy on November 02, 2020, 03:11:12 PM
Well, when it comes to Nordic women, they are really big on Sauna's, and doing a Sauna get a hot hot bath with soap and steamy water, combined with a dip into a frigid ice covered lake for a few minutes, and then, when all that is done, you get into the steamroom or Sauna and then bake the artic freeze right out of your bones, usually for more than an hour. The result is one comes out super clean, and free from most smells or odors, at least until one dresses and then toils for a day or two, and then it is back to the Sauna, especially during the winter.
I suppose some smell and taste like Reindeer as well, But I personally haven't travelled in those social circles.
It takes *far* less than a day around an open fire and animals before you and your clothes smell like smoke and animals. Everyone here is agreed that the vikings bathed and were generally clean and well-groomed. The issue is that they're living in a big longhouse with open fires and animals.
This wasn't like other eras where the nobles lived in a manor that was separate from the working farms. In the classical viking era, everyone - nobles, huscarls, servants, and many animals - all lived together in a huge longhouse heated mainly by a central hearth. There were strong status divisions, but essentially everyone was a farmer working on the farm in some way.
When I was running viking-era adventures, that was something I emphasized. It's a very different style of living from modern urban life. A misconception I sometimes see in TV/film portrayals is picturing a longhouse as a big, mostly-empty ceremonial hall. Really, though, it was a bustling center of activity, and particularly in the winter, it was really damn full.
That was my thought when I played Skyrim and entered the Jarl's hall for the first time. Magnificent place... where the fuck is everyone? Every NPC in the game world could fit in that place - someone counted them up, 200 or so.
Most open world games are depressingly empty of people.
When I bbq, I smell like bbq (thus achieving the epitome of delicious).
Combine constant open fires and poor ventilation, and you're going to get deeply ingrained smoke smells in everything. However, its odd how our brains filter out "familiar" smells for anything that's not familiar.
Thus, anyone who adds an unusual fragrance will get noticed.
...especially by monsters.
Quote from: Kyle Aaron on November 02, 2020, 09:42:28 PM
Most open world games are depressingly empty of people.
Oh, yes. I remember Fallout 4 and Diamond City--the big settlement--had only a few score people in it (most unnamed). Your own settlements were usually capped in the mid-20s (without mods), and for some of the big ones, that seemed rather barren.
Quote from: HappyDaze on November 02, 2020, 11:35:52 PM
Quote from: Kyle Aaron on November 02, 2020, 09:42:28 PM
Most open world games are depressingly empty of people.
Oh, yes. I remember Fallout 4 and Diamond City--the big settlement--had only a few score people in it (most unnamed). Your own settlements were usually capped in the mid-20s (without mods), and for some of the big ones, that seemed rather barren.
That's probably a processing issue. All those objects and NPC take processing power to rend and run any scrips. That's the reason why FO4 settlements have a build limit. If you lay too many objects in close proximity in one area it begins to cause processing problems and the game may freeze or crash. I have a mod to exceed build limits and I ended up having to reduce graphic quality a bit, cuz it started causing problems in some settlements when I was in build mode--causing my screen to flicker and my game would sometimes freeze. I ended up looking up info on these issues one time and read somewhere that settlers caused it the worse, cuz they also have a bunch of scrips to run for animations, random dialog, and such, and people who run sim-settlements with lots of settlers tend to run into a lot of problems.
It may even bug your settlement as well. One of my settlements was bugged and every settler got un-assigned from their tasks and couldn't be assigned to anything. I had to leave for days in game time before I could reassign them again. And even then, the merchants in one of the buildings won't even talk to me anymore. I've basically given up on it, cuz apparently when they get this bugged only way to "fix" them is to dismantle everything you built and store everything in your workbench, leave for the settlement a while, then come back and build it up again (which ain't gonna happen).
jhkim makes a good point.
Back when I was in Scouts, it didn't take much to wind up smelling of woodsmoke -- just standing downwind of the fire for a few minutes would do. And those were open-air firepits, not inside a longhouse!
Having worked in a poultry processing plant three summers during my college days, I can attest that there are very few smells one cannot acclimate to given enough time. The first couple of days, the smell never goes away. Three months later, when you walk in you notice it as a minor thing for a couple of minutes then forget about it. Agree with everyone else--different smells are what stand out.
On the other hand, many people have a narrow range of particular smells that they never seem to acclimate to. (For me, it is cigarette smoke.) If you are person in a medieval or earlier Norse society, chances are that wet goat or burning peat or something else is something you can deal with because of long exposure, but it nags at you subconsciously. Makes a fun quirk for a character that is irritable all the time.
Imagine the smell...
This has been a compelling, interesting and exciting thread. I have decided for future games that viking or viking like females shall smell of smoke & kereosene, and shall endeavor to refrain from blasting the first half of "fat bottom girls" by queen anytime they make an in-game appearance.
Quote from: VisionStorm on November 03, 2020, 06:15:06 AM
That's probably a processing issue.
No doubt. It's an issue that should be addressed. Basically most of the innovation for a couple of decades has gone into graphics. Imagine if it'd gone into gameplay and worldbuilding? Questions like the OP's would be answered in-game.
Quote from: Kyle Aaron on November 04, 2020, 12:36:23 AM
Quote from: VisionStorm on November 03, 2020, 06:15:06 AM
That's probably a processing issue.
No doubt. It's an issue that should be addressed. Basically most of the innovation for a couple of decades has gone into graphics. Imagine if it'd gone into gameplay and worldbuilding? Questions like the OP's would be answered in-game.
If it makes you feel better, I think we're hitting peak levels on graphics and developers are slowly starting to turn their attention to other aspects.
I just... kinda wish they'd hurry the fuck up with it :)
Someone needs to do an RPG supplement with a Scratch-n-Sniff sheet!!!
"After the battle you come upon the beautiful Norse shield-bearer that saved you. She smiles confidently at you as she lifts her shield upon her sweat-drenched shoulder, from under her arms you smell G-12".
What do you do?
Then you watch watch everyone pull out their sheets and start scratching. Then watch their faces.
Quote from: Kyle Aaron on November 04, 2020, 12:36:23 AM
Quote from: VisionStorm on November 03, 2020, 06:15:06 AM
That's probably a processing issue.
No doubt. It's an issue that should be addressed. Basically most of the innovation for a couple of decades has gone into graphics. Imagine if it'd gone into gameplay and worldbuilding? Questions like the OP's would be answered in-game.
After 15 years of work, DwarfFortress has an in-game answer for the OP's question, I suspect.
Quote from: tenbones on November 04, 2020, 05:24:57 PM
Someone needs to do an RPG supplement with a Scratch-n-Sniff sheet!!!
"After the battle you come upon the beautiful Norse shield-bearer that saved you. She smiles confidently at you as she lifts her shield upon her sweat-drenched shoulder, from under her arms you smell G-12".
What do you do?
Then you watch watch everyone pull out their sheets and start scratching. Then watch their faces.
It depends on the lunar cycle: Science! (https://www.livescience.com/553-woman-smells.html)
There is a quote, maybe from the Anglo-Saxon Chronicle, about Danes coming over and bathing regularly, grooming their hair and beards and wearing perfume to make themselves smell nice, then enticing women from good Saxons, they weren't complaining about the Danes stealing their women but about the underhand way they did it.
If male Danes did this, it stands to reason that female Danes also followed those practices.