Quote from: sureshot on October 19, 2020, 04:54:51 PM
It's both incredibly funny and increasingly sad that no one here said anything about anyone else not being allowed to play the rpg. Or who plays the rpg. Just that because msyelf and others mocked Evil Hat for attaching such a Work and SJW manifesto their latest rpg. Somehow mocking EH became tantamount to being a Fascist. With those calling us out encouraging censorship by trying to claim anyone who is not onboard 10000% with the rpg is worse than an actual Fascist.

Its the usual death spiral each iteration has gone through. Just in the previous iterations it was both not as broad reaching till the 90s and not as damaging or flat out openly insane. But even back in the 90s some publishers were weaponizing these lunatics to take out the competition and critics.

Quote from: Habitual Gamer on October 19, 2020, 05:33:19 PMWe live in a post-internet age.  "Don't pay them any attention, that's what they want" is sage advice, but nobody listens.

Problem is. It usually did not work in prior iterations and sure as hell doesnt work now.

Ignore them and all they do is go around you straight for the companies themselves who can and appallingly very often WILL listen to the most insane demands of a small group or even just one deranged individual as if it were the word of GOD and speaks for us all.

This is also why resistance to any of these loons statements gets so stringent. Look at all the good "just ignore them" has gotten us over and over, iteration after iteration of this madness.

Quote from: HappyDaze on October 20, 2020, 03:59:58 AMDon't let the system stop you; pave the way for others by doing an OSR-compatable neo-retro-conversion reskin. 

Does Lesbo Jet Fighters Dive Into the Sky count?

Like others said, if they just made their own shit and left others alone that would be fine.  No one would care.  That's not what happens though. 

The "we don't want to take your X (video games, comics, manga, anime, books) away from you" is BS.  The past 5ish years have proved that.  Hicks/Evil Hat themselves have shown they will go crying and threaten to pull their games on DriveThru.  All over the internet cancel culture throws a tantrum over anime tiddies, Grim Jim, Zak S, Gamer Gate, Comics Gate, Trump, etc.

So when they try to pull this gate-keeping crap, especially if they toss around Current Year buzzwords like Nazi and fascist, I say fuck 'em.  They deserve to be pointed at, laughed at, have some internet dirt kicked in their face and if warranted tossed out of a few spaces.  Maybe, eventually, they will go and just play their damn games and leave the rest of us alone.  I know, I know, I can keep dreaming can't I?

Quote from: Ratman_tf on October 19, 2020, 05:42:22 PMIt's completely off topic, so I didn't comment, but I'll go on record saying I don't like racial liberation, queer liberation and intersectional feminism. Mostly emphasis on the feminism, which I am most familiar with, but the whole thing is a bag of identity politics activist buzzwords that have different meanings than the common useage, or the issue is deeper than a two word slogan.

But again, it's a red herring on the topic of Thirty Thirsty Thlesbians.

Yes, this, absolutely. Racial liberation, queer liberation, and intersectional feminism are indeed terrible.

Quote from: rgalex on October 20, 2020, 08:15:11 AM
Like others said, if they just made their own shit and left others alone that would be fine.  No one would care.  That's not what happens though. 

The "we don't want to take your X (video games, comics, manga, anime, books) away from you" is BS.  They past 5ish years have proved that.  Hicks/Evil Hat themselves have shown they will go crying and threaten to pull their games on DriveThru.  All over the internet cancel culture throws a tantrum over anime tiddies, Grim Jim, Zak S, Gamer Gate, Comics Gate, Trump, etc.

So when they try to pull this gate-keeping crap, especially if they toss around Current Year buzzwords like Nazi and fascist, I say fuck 'em.  They deserve to be pointed at, laughed at, have some internet dirt kicked in their face and if warranted tossed out of a few spaces.  Maybe, eventually, they will go and just play their damn games and leave the rest of us alone.  I know, I know, I can keep dreaming can't I?

Yes, I agree with this. Keeping in mind that none of us are trying to intimidate the people at Evil Hat, destroy their livelihoods, shut them out of the hobby, or anything of the sort. We are insulting and/or ridiculing them. It is people on their ideological side of the aisle who want to force everybody in the hobby to be like them, for the most part those of us on the right or center just want to be left alone to enjoy our games.

Complaining about SJWs in gaming does have an important function. It shows everybody in the hobby that there are dissenting voices out there. If people object to having social justice, intersectionality, cultural Marxism, or what ever the term is for this brand of extreme leftism forced upon them and their hobbies, then they can see that they aren't alone.

Well said, Shieldwife.

Quote from: tenbones on October 20, 2020, 03:02:51 PM
Well said, Shieldwife.

Thankyou 

Yep and yep. Ignoring this stuff just encourages them. We're all old hands at this by now and know better.

i will never get this shit, i've never run a game were sex or orientation or anything like that remotely comes into play as a general thing. i dont even like it when hetero stuff is spotlighted at the table let alone addressed with mechanics; we grew out of rolling for orgasm after age 14 really.

Wanna know what's really ironic? There's nothing inherently 'queer' about this game beyond the fact that gender doesn't limit who you can crush on, and yuri/yaoi isn't exactly unpopular among straight people. So by their definition they could have made this game more 'accessible' by going with more 'attractive' art (it is after all a romance game) and a less belligerent title. But the objective isn't market share but message, and the creators have become so insufferable at this point that I'm hesitant to support them regardless of how good the game is or how much I agree with them in principle.

Quote from: S'mon on October 16, 2020, 07:11:29 PM
A quick Google reveals that Kit Walsh isn't just transgender or similar - apparently he/she is transracial too!

http://bloggingwhilebrown.com/speakers-2015

"Blogging while brown"? 

Using the shield of 'intersectionality' to invade spaces they have no business being to co-opt the issues being advocated for is exactly the kind of insufferable shit I'm talking about. It's the same kind of appropriation and whataboutism they yell at us for.

Quote from: Mercurius on October 16, 2020, 03:34:14 PM

Quote from: Darrin Kelley on October 16, 2020, 03:01:06 PM

Quote from: VisionStorm on October 16, 2020, 02:45:48 PM
Drag Queens have nothing to do with mocking trans people. Not even everyone in the SJW nut job community believes that, and a subset of them are the few people that do. Its just an artistic form of self expression involving the subversion of gender roles and stuff like that.

My life experience trumps your denial.

My "father" was a drag queen who stole my mom's clothes to sneak out at night when I was a young child to get his jollies. He did so out of hate and jealousy toward my mother. And would scoff at and mock anyone transsexual. He was and still is evil incarnate.

He was getting his kicks one moment, torturing and abusing a sick child the next moment, and raping my mother at the next. So you better believe, I know the face of hate.

I suffered 48 years of PTSD because of that monster. Nonstop fear. And that's no way for anyone to live. 48 years of being trapped in the moment of a small young child frozen in terror, while the monster that is the cause looms over them.

I didn't have a father. My boogeyman was very real.

This sucks, and I'm really sorry that you had/have to experience this.

But one anecdote shouldn't define an entire category of people. I imagine that there are many reasons drag queens are drag queens, but my guess is that the overwhelming majority simply like dressing up as women. It is performance art.

That said, if that is your primary and only association with a certain type of person, it is understandable why you would feel that way - at least on a purely emotional level. I once worked with a woman who had been gang-raped by several black men. She knew intellectually that most black men were not rapists, but she still had a physical response when she saw one. That was 25 years ago...I'm hoping that she found a way to heal this trauma wound, but have no idea.

One symptom of trauma is the inability to distinguish the accountable individual from the group, either intellectually or emotionally.

Quote from: Mercurius on October 16, 2020, 04:03:02 PM

Quote from: Darrin Kelley on October 16, 2020, 03:54:29 PM
"Oh get over it" shows a profound ignorance of what PTSD does to a person by the one who says it. It's not something a person can just choose to "get over". The afflicted need to be able to cope with it in their own way, otherwise it's never going to stop. They need to find one aspect in their life that makes them feel safe again. And anyone who thinks it is easy is just being willfully ignorant.

People heal on their own time. And not to someone else's convenience.

I didn't say "get over it." In fact, I made absolutely no recommendations on how you should deal with your trauma, because I am very aware that trauma is extremely difficult to heal, and of course it is none of my business.

What I did say is that your experience with your father doesn't define all drag queens.

Another symptom is misinterpreting any challenge to biased thinking.

Darrin, I recognize these are open wounds of which which you may never achieve closure for, and my intent is not to poke at them, but I feel it's important to point out how trauma itself can lead to prejudice and bigotry. Because there's a lot of genuinely wounded people out there feeding into a toxic culture which is impossible to fix because every attempt to do so is seen as #Gaslighting, #Mansplaining, dismissing lived experience, telling someone they don't exist, or suggesting someone should just get over it. There are also plenty of narcissists/sociopaths taking advantage of this state of affairs, and moving forward depends of being able to tell the difference.

Quote from: Darrin Kelley on October 16, 2020, 02:34:24 PM
Would you tolerate someone mocking somebody for getting or having cancer?

Well Deadpool seems rather popular.

Quote from: fixable on October 18, 2020, 04:11:20 AM
Its not about identity politics. It is about facists have ZERO place in our society.

No, it is about #IdentityPolitics because of how much it relies on having the power to determine who should be identified as a fascist. And the game doesn't need a disclaimer against fascists if there's nothing inherent in the material which would appeal to fascist in the first place.

Unless there is, in which case I'm curious to hear what that is.

Quote from: fixable on October 18, 2020, 04:31:07 AM
Well the first step to determining who is fascist is looking at the actions taken.

The only action taken was expressing an opinion.

Now if they tried to get the game banned or person fired...

Quote from: fixable on October 18, 2020, 04:31:07 AM
Aggressiveness towards an RPG just because it caters to LGBTQ ideals is a pretty obvious clue.

Does this include individuals suffering genuine trauma?

As for LGBT 'ideals', again there's nothing inherent in the game itself which is LGBT. In fact there's a glossary of LGBT terms 'used' in the game which are never used beyond the glossary itself. It's as if the designer thinks that simply calling something such makes it so. And advice on how to deal with aro/ace individuals in play is conspicuously absent.

Quote from: fixable on October 19, 2020, 02:00:34 AM
aggressiveness towards an rpg because it caters to LGBTQ ideals is actively trying to exclude people from playing RPGs.

No it isn't, because nothing we say here stops people from playing.

Quote from: fixable on October 19, 2020, 01:59:04 AM
There is absolutely nothing wrong with racial liberation, queer liberation, and intersectional feminism.

Except for the arson, looting, vandalism, harassment, defamation, assault...

Quote from: fixable on October 19, 2020, 02:12:40 AM
That means stop deriding other people's game experiences/needs.

A standard I hold everyone accountable to.

Quote from: fixable on October 19, 2020, 02:12:40 AM
Why on heaven's green earth do you care if a game is advertised as anti-fascist or anti-bigot. If you aren't either of such then good for them. If you are, then just go about whatever it is your kind do on a daily basis. Why are you letting it bother you?

Because that's the kind of thinking behind every authoritarian policy since forever: Start with an obvious moral basis nobody can disagree with and then expand the definition until it encompasses all your political enemies. Which is exactly what has happened.

Quote from: fixable on October 19, 2020, 02:12:40 AM
Let people enjoy games that make them feel comfortable and safe.

We're not stopping them.

Quote from: jhkim on October 19, 2020, 02:28:31 PM
I don't think that RPGs have any power as propaganda in changing culture. Children's television and Disney movies are powerful propaganda (among others), but RPGs require too much active involvement from the GM and players. They only attract people who are open to those views. So I see warring and raging against the politics of the other side as pointless sound and fury.

Agreed, and I've seen no evidence that these games lead to any changes in values or behavior whatsoever even among those who claim they do.

Quote from: CRKrueger on October 15, 2020, 03:31:39 PM
Jesus Wept guys, congrats for falling into the trap.

Quote from: jeff37923 on October 17, 2020, 04:05:53 AM
Because it is a trap and this is bait.

#Awkward

I think we're missing out on the possible upside here.  What if the Kickstarter fulfillment is a complete debacle and sinks the company?

Quote from: Almost_Useless on October 21, 2020, 10:14:24 PM
I think we're missing out on the possible upside here.  What if the Kickstarter fulfillment is a complete debacle and sinks the company?

They will claim it is our fault because they were so traumatized by the terrible things being said on TheRPGSite...

Although that would still be pretty funny...

edit: I really can't seem to take this game seriously because every time I read the title, the amazon tribe sequence from Deathstalker II keeps running through my head.   

Quote from: Almost_Useless on October 21, 2020, 10:14:24 PM
I think we're missing out on the possible upside here.  What if the Kickstarter fulfillment is a complete debacle and sinks the company?

Theyd just claim "It was those horrible Nazis who cause the KS to fail! Oh boo-hoo-hoo! Please bail is out with our new going out of business sale! saaaave us!"

I really feel like being needlessly aggressive towards their Kickstarter is exactly what they want.  It lets them score quick Twitterati clout by loudly proclaiming "SEE! SEE!  THE NAHT-ZEES CAME FOR US! Didn't we tell you this would happen?!  They're all anti-gay bigots and this PROVES IT!"

I think a better approach is to make fun of them.  Let's see if we can get Grim Jim or Venger to make an OSR game called "Busty Lesbian Amazons of the Yonic Isles" or something of that nature.  Make it very very pro-gay (the PCs are assumed to be Lesbian Amazons, after all) but dial up the smut and male gaze to 11.

Obviously this game would be quite uncomfortable to actually play (for most people, anyway), but that's not really the point.  The point is to mock Thirsty Sword Lesbians and other obnoxiously preachy idpol games like it.  Maybe have a section where most idpol games would have a wordy, rambling forward angrily lecturing the reader about how the game WILL be played and calling them buzzwords for disagreeing, just have a paragraph that says "you bought the book. It's yours, you can do what you want with it."

The great things about roleplaying games as an artform is how versatile they are.  The only limit is your imagination.  It's entirely possible and valid to release an RPG that's never intended to be actually played.   Just look at Violence: The Role-Playing Game of Egregious and Repulsive Bloodshed

It looks like the kickstarter is already a big success, it's brought in over $100,000 with a $20,000 goal.

The creators of TSL probably do want our hostile reactions though. In fact, they are probably imagining far more extreme hatred directed at their game than the mild contempt we're showing. Leftists have this weird idea that they are super brave rebels fighting against the power structure, risking themselves as martyrs for the cause, when they are in fact the absolute opposite. You'll see left wing actors and celebrities say that all Trump supporters are evil and stupid, then act like they are persecuted when a handful of anonymous internet posters criticize them - despite the actors still being millionaires, having the support of all the people they personally know, and their entire industry.

While not as rich and powerful as Hollywood celebs, that is what the TSL people are like. They have the support of the RPG industry at large as well as all of their fans and peers. Our criticism doesn't inconvenience them in the slightest. Though it plays into their make believe world where evil Nazis like us really hate them, are persecuting them, and they are so brave for standing up to the Man.